[HN Gopher] How Olympics officials try to catch "motor doping"
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How Olympics officials try to catch "motor doping"
Author : belter
Score : 42 points
Date : 2024-07-23 18:43 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| What's the trainer-athlete conversation like that leads up to
| installing such devices?
| reallymental wrote:
| Both parties want to win. There's no such conversation, they're
| all in it to win it. Do whatever it takes.
| willcipriano wrote:
| Just show up one day and your bike has an unexplained button
| on it that makes you go fast?
| brookst wrote:
| Sure, for training purposes. You know, on a long ride, you
| don't want to overdo it. Of course, the actual race bike
| needs the button for verisimilitude, and it would be a big
| mistake if a batter was left in, and...
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| Surely there are certain logistics, like making sure it's
| charged before the race, or asking, "wouldn't I perform
| better by losing the extra weight?" being brought up
| before, no?
| recursive wrote:
| There's a UCI minimum weight for competition bikes at
| 6.8kg. We _can 't_ remove the button, as that would put
| us under the weight limit.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| That's funny. Thank you for explaining it
| legitster wrote:
| I cannot strongly recommend enough the documentary Icarus,
| which starts out with the premise of "how hard is it to ask for
| steroids" and spirals into completely insane territory from
| there.
| sctb wrote:
| And when does Mephistopheles chime in? I'm fascinated by the
| idea of doping in general, and there seems to be two distinct
| kinds: 1) something that everyone is doing (e.g. EPO at the
| Tour de France or AAS in bodybuilding) and 2) something that
| will give you an actual edge. "Motor doping" seems to be an
| example of the latter.
|
| It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable
| enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in
| order to win. Not because it's immoral or dishonourable or
| anything like that, but just because it's so fucking _lame_.
| OrigamiPastrami wrote:
| > It really boggles my mind that there are people who are
| capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to
| cheat in order to win. Not because it's immoral or
| dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it's so
| fucking lame.
|
| If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you
| don't cheat. It has nothing to do with honor - it's just
| about winning. Cheating may be lame but it's a reality. It's
| not just limited to sports either. In fact I can't think of
| anywhere I studied/worked where cheaters/liars didn't get
| ahead (I know multiple cheating students who got into MIT for
| grad school, and I know multiple abusive liars who were
| consistently promoted at unicorn startups or FAANG while
| simultaneously working to get their honest coworkers fired).
|
| Such is life.
| sctb wrote:
| > If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if
| you don't cheat.
|
| I put that in category #1, which isn't exactly cheating
| because it doesn't buy you an advantage. Cheating at school
| or at work is an interesting example. Perhaps by the time
| cyclists are considering motorizing it's just like... a
| job? And you have to win to eat?
| JohnMakin wrote:
| > It really boggles my mind that there are people who are
| capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to
| cheat in order to win. Not because it's immoral or
| dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it's so
| fucking lame.
|
| If you have devoted your entire life to a particular sport
| enough to compete and make a living in it, there inevitably
| will come a time when your ability to compete is not enough,
| whether that's due to declining ability or increased
| competition. When faced with the decision of ending a career
| or cheating, it is not too surprising that people could
| choose the latter.
|
| Of course there are many other reasons for cheating, but I
| imagine that to be a common motivator.
| sctb wrote:
| > When faced with the decision of ending a career or
| cheating, it is not too surprising that people could choose
| the latter.
|
| I do find it a bit surprising, myself.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| > I do find it a bit surprising, myself.
|
| Ok let me phrase it perhaps in a more relatable way -
|
| Your employer asks you to do an unethical or illegal
| thing. Not doing so will result in you losing your
| livelihood. Doing so presents a small but measurable risk
| to you, but you keep your livelihood unless caught, in
| which case you lose your livelihood anyway. Do you think
| there is a significant subset of people that take the
| first choice?
| sctb wrote:
| I find it surprising that athletes would choose to make a
| drastic departure from their prior intentions of fair
| competition in order to attempt to avoid the
| inevitability of retirement. I don't find it nearly as
| surprising that someone would make a bite-sized
| compromise in order to preserve their livelihood, even
| though it seems unwise to me.
|
| Sport qua job has a different feel than sport qua sport,
| as a sibling commenter illuminated.
| TheCondor wrote:
| What's boggling about it?
|
| Cycling is a really good example because it is so stark: 1)
| If you win you make more money, probably _a lot_ more money.
| I don 't know the current numbers, but during the Armstrong
| years there were plenty of Tour de France level riders that
| worked wrenching bikes to make ends meet and lived with their
| parents in the off season. You had Lance on private jets, and
| then guys on the team making under $30k supporting him. 2)
| Genetics is huge, you can do everything possible and simply
| not be good enough, if you've dedicated a big chunk of your
| life to this dream, you've won at every level, you live a
| completely monastic lifestyle and constantly diet and you
| reach your limit the desire to get just a little bit better
| is strong. The drugs work. 3) If enough people believe that
| "everyone is doing it" then the psychology of cheating
| disappears. 4) There is no external pressure or risk; the
| teams and sponsors don't get burned. When Lance won on a Trek
| they went from being something like a $200m company to a
| $2.5B company. They may very well have played a part in it,
| perhaps unbeknownst to them, but they never had any jeopardy.
|
| They're talking about what is physiologically possible after
| this year's Tour, it was a complete ass kicking. If your
| competition is doing things that are believed impossible, do
| you hang it up? accept defeat? Or rationalize that a few
| watts isn't really cheating since he's doing something
| impossible?
| sctb wrote:
| Doping as table stakes is understandable. Money too, after
| a while. But I genuinely wonder how an athlete who put a
| motor in their bike and then accepted the resulting victory
| would feel about themselves as a competitor and a person.
| If they were stoked then by all means go for it, but in
| that case they must have a different psyche than I do.
| alistairSH wrote:
| The same as the conversation that leads to athletes doping
| their bodies.
|
| Somebody in the athlete's inner circle suggests "hey, you'd be
| faster/stronger if you did X..." and it goes from there.
| sidibe wrote:
| For those who aren't following starting a few years ago the top
| cyclists have hit some crazy new levels unseen even in the EPO
| era and the top ones at this year's Tour De France were smashing
| power output records and not even looking tired in the winner's
| case.
|
| I think so far no one has been caught motor doping even though
| they've looked for it for years. The rumor is the new magic is
| carbon monoxide rebreathing
| RegnisGnaw wrote:
| Per the article, Femke Van den Driessche was caught motor
| doping.
| Saig6 wrote:
| This is false, Pogacar and Vingegaards w/kg is lower than the
| best juicers in the 90s/00s.
| loeg wrote:
| Can you put some names and numbers to that?
| 0x000xca0xfe wrote:
| Do you have sources for that?
|
| Some quick searching yields this:
|
| "Based on the numbers, Tadej Pogacar has an FTP close to
| 7w/kg. These are the highest numbers that we've ever seen in
| professional cycling, and what's even more incredible is that
| Pogacar is pushing 7w/kg for 40 minutes after four hours of
| racing."
|
| https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-racing/tour-de-
| fran...
| isoprophlex wrote:
| That doesn't sound dangerous at all
| solardev wrote:
| Tangentially, it would be cool to just have sanctioned ebike
| races. We have motorcycles and cars, why not ebikes? I'd love to
| watch a high speed, no holds barred e-cyclocross/gravel/MTB race.
| PierceJoy wrote:
| There is a UCI sanctioned electric mountain bike enduro race.
| anthomtb wrote:
| To the GP, an electric mountain bike (eMTB) enduro race is
| probably not what you are envisioning.
|
| Mountain bike (MTB) enduro is stage racing. Specifically,
| timed downhill-only sections separated by untimed transfers
| between stages. The name comes from motorcycle enduro racing.
| Riders do not go head-to-head like in road cycling,
| cyclocross or motocross. eMTB enduro is exactly the same
| format but using electric-motor assisted bikes and, IIRC, one
| timed uphill stage thrown in.
|
| MTB/eMTB enduro is great fun as a participant sport but
| either not-there-yet or not-suitable as a spectator sport.
| etimberg wrote:
| Why not just have the Olympic host supply the same bike model to
| every participant rather than having each rider bring their own
| bike?
| RegnisGnaw wrote:
| Why not have the Olympic host supply the same shoes to every
| participant? The same swim suit to every participant. What's
| the end?
| hanniabu wrote:
| They really should, that way everyone is competing on equal
| levels. Less variables means a greater chance the best person
| wins.
| solardev wrote:
| I don't think the Olympics were ever about equal footing or
| decreasing variables. To really level the playing field
| you'd have to have a clone army of athletes with the same
| genes, diet, lifestyle, training, coach, sleep, etc.
| Equipment is just one variable among dozens, and eventually
| the rules can change to limit their contribution (like with
| swimsuits).
| rhinoman wrote:
| Or it would benefit those participants who are best suited
| to the chosen gear.
|
| Taking an extreme example - imagine if we said "everyone
| must wear size 9 shoes so everybody's on equal footing".
| axblount wrote:
| I'm not sure how your extreme example is helpful. No one
| has made a suggestion like that.
| rhinoman wrote:
| The idea is that different equipment is better suited for
| different individuals. By mandating a specific kind of
| equipment for all athletes, you'd be benefiting some
| individuals over others.
|
| For example, road bikes have different frame shapes that
| are suitable depending on your torso length compared to
| leg length.
|
| Of course, the natural next step would be allow some
| flexibility (different frame size but same material), but
| you can see how that could be a slippery slope of
| legislation and lobbying that would end up in a similar
| situation to where we are today?
| jaggederest wrote:
| Especially in the context of the original olympics, which
| were largely conducted nude. The idea that a rich country
| can field better equipment is absurd.
| Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote:
| Yes please!
| thesz wrote:
| If you have been training in different gear than is
| supplied to you by host of the event then you are at
| disadvantage.
|
| Take a look at the variety of weightlifting shoes, as an
| example of gear for a specific sport.
| marinmania wrote:
| There was a controversy in curling a few years ago where some
| curling teams were using new brooms by a new company that had
| significantly better tech. It was so good it made it
| unnecessary to have two sweepers. The resolution was to ban
| it and only allow brooms from certain manufacturers.
|
| It seems reasonable that these sports could narrow down the
| list of approved equipment down to a few approved suppliers
| every year.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-podcasts/1427-broomgate-a-
| curl...
| alistairSH wrote:
| Shoes had a similar issue when Nike released their first
| modern super-shoe (Vaporfly, IIRC). The track and field
| body had to limit shoe sole height and the other brands had
| a lot of catch-up to do.
|
| Same for swimming with high tech, low drag, bouyant
| swimsuits. Again, the international body had to step in and
| ban some materials/designs to prevent domination by nations
| that could sink resources into the engineering.
| altruios wrote:
| External supplies, clothing, and equipment... that's the
| end... we aren't going to be matching used muscles to see
| which brain pulls on them harder.
|
| External influences should be minimized within reason.
| solardev wrote:
| Different riders have different preferences, and there's a lot
| of money and technology that goes into improving the bikes
| every year (or at least every decade). The materials, the
| construction, the electronics, the aerodynamics, the fit, the
| saddle, the tires... they're all constantly evolving. It's like
| car races, manufacturer sponsorship is a huge part of it, and
| the races in turn advertise those bikes.
|
| Would it make for more equal footing if everyone had the same
| model? Yeah, probably, but does that happen elsewhere in the
| Olympics? Does the host supply skis, shoes, bows, bobsleds,
| etc.?
| etimberg wrote:
| To me, the olympics are about determining who is best at a
| sport. It's not a technical problem like a car race where
| bending the rules with creative engineering is expected and
| encouraged.
| icoder wrote:
| Engineering is part of many sports, skiing, snowboarding,
| swimming (albeit limited after those floating suits),
| running. Even if you say they should all be about the
| sports performance only, there's engineering behind
| training schedules, equipment, diet, techniques & posture,
| etc.
| slaymaker1907 wrote:
| The trouble is that people have different preferences for
| different equipment and by mandating one particular bike,
| you disadvantage a lot people based on who does better on a
| particular bike and aren't judging people solely based on
| who is the better cyclist. Consider the absurd extension of
| using exactly the same equipment where even the size of the
| bike is exactly the same, saddle height is the same, pedal
| length is the same, etc. There will be maybe one person who
| that is ideal with and whole lot more people suffering
| injuries from riding incorrectly sized bikes.
|
| Therefore, since we can't all have exactly the same bikes,
| we need to come up with a definition of what is "fair" to
| adjust for the bike that someone races on. Sure, this
| allows for some degree creative engineering, but is that
| really a bad thing so long as money doesn't become the
| determining factor of who wins? It pushes the science of
| bikes forward and eventually that new tech will make its
| way to everyone, including amateur cyclists.
| anthomtb wrote:
| In your view, are activities like cycling and snowboarding
| valid as Olympic sports? Neither could exist without a
| significant amount of creative engineering.
| playingalong wrote:
| There's a difference between creative engineering
| enabling the whole sport and creative engineers competing
| with each other behind the scenes.
| alistairSH wrote:
| _Yeah, probably, but does that happen elsewhere in the
| Olympics?_
|
| Yes, sailing. I believe all but Formula Kite are one-design
| classes (Laser, Laser Radial, IQFoil, Nacra 17, 49er, and
| 470). A few have options between licensed manufacturer (but
| to same spec) and a few are true one-make (Laser, Laser
| Radial), not sure about the others.
| notatoad wrote:
| The olympics don't really set the protocol for any of this. the
| rules and procedures for each sport are set by their respective
| international sport organization. for cycling that's the UCI.
|
| the olympics is only one event, and only happens once every
| four years. the rest of the season, that happens every year, is
| much more important and doesn't have an olympic host to provide
| bikes. so there needs to be some procedure that catches motor
| doping at all the races, not just one infrequent race. The
| olympics is just going to follow the same procedures that are
| used for all the rest of the worldtour level races. and while
| the olympics might not care about keeping the rider's bike
| sponsors happy, the rest of the races do.
|
| if riders weren't out there promoting bike brands and riding
| bikes provided by their sponsors, pro bike racing wouldn't be a
| thing.
| dmckeon wrote:
| > promoting bike brands and riding bikes provided by their
| sponsors
|
| Therein lies an answer - change the disincentives - instead
| of banning cheating riders, ban all of the sponsors of those
| riders for a time. Now the onus is on the sponsors to
| discourage cheating.
| epanchin wrote:
| That is the premise behind formula E, and no one watches it.
| porkbeer wrote:
| But that isn't why, Spec Miata (for example) is the same and
| has an outsized following. in fact, single-make racing is
| nearly as common as mixed.
| xnx wrote:
| A big part (possibly the primary reason) is to promote and sell
| overpriced gear to amateurs. The Little 500 race is run with
| all riders using standard bikes, so it's not unprecedented.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_500
| oksurewhynot wrote:
| For those wondering what egregious motor doping (probably) looks
| like, here's an extremely famous (and some would say obvious)
| example of it:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6z7uUe0tVA
|
| For those not familiar with Tom Boonen, Cancellara effortlessly
| spinning up the Kapelmuur and putting in so much time that the
| chase helicopter can't even find him would be like beating Usain
| Bolt in the 100m by 5 seconds.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Nobody has ever shown that Cancellara was cheating there. Maybe
| he's just a monster. When Joop Zoetemelk casually disappeared
| from the front of the pack in the 1985 World Cycling
| Championship nobody could believe it because Joop was 40 years
| old. Nevertheless, he did it, and there was no stealth motor
| technology at the time.
| renewiltord wrote:
| So far, with cycling, P(discovered cheating later |
| outrageous) ~ 1. Some people will believe that when they go
| indoors the sun stops shining because there is no longer any
| proof. It's certainly a strict way to seek one's knowledge.
| Others have a different view.
| scheme271 wrote:
| Yeah, except for Boonen is a sprinter and a hill climb even a
| short very steep one is probably the worst terrain for him.
| Cancellara isn't a climber but as a time trial specialist, he's
| a lot better suited for the kapelmuur than Boonen. And
| cancellara is better at descending as well.
| matsemann wrote:
| I don't buy your comparison with bolt. This is just a video
| showing someone exploding? Happens all the time. They're riding
| at the limit for long, and then when one can't handle it
| anymore the difference is stark.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| The sport of cycling is toast. The culture is too far gone and
| honest folks can't escape the suspicion of doping.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Well it could have a resurgence if doping were explicitly
| allowed.
| dylan604 wrote:
| If we want to see the best athletes, then we need to allow
| them to do whatever it takes to be their best. We want the
| best*. Is the best they can do with limits
| renewiltord wrote:
| These motors are pretty cool. They'll make mountain biking a lot
| more accessible and for me, a lot more fun since a lot more time
| on the downhill sections :)
| Beijinger wrote:
| Well, people dope now with CarbonMonoxide
|
| https://escapecollective.com/exclusive-tour-riders-are-inhal...
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| Under the rules, how different is that from something like just
| taking caffeine?
|
| Doping is usually in reference to banned substances. But
| huffing CO genuinely seems completely out of left field of any
| rules that I know. They probably will ban it, but before they
| do is it correct to call it doping?
| swarnie wrote:
| A 20w electric motor is child's play, real women beat the shit
| out of a horse until it learns to dance.
| kart23 wrote:
| Can't you just weigh the bike? how much weight does a
| motor+batteries add? And anything that isn't super light would
| get heavier scrutiny.
| cheeze wrote:
| Bikes are at a point where they can be lighter than the UCI
| mandated minimum weight. Aero has been the name of the game for
| a while as well, so it's possible that a riders bike already is
| heavier than expected for aero benefit
| alistairSH wrote:
| Bikes can already be built WAY below the minimum weight set by
| UCI (6.8kg), so that doesn't help - it's easy to install a
| motor, battery, and still come in right at the limit.
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