[HN Gopher] Ventilation Made Easy
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Ventilation Made Easy
Author : Tomte
Score : 28 points
Date : 2024-07-21 07:01 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.mpg.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.mpg.de)
| constantcrying wrote:
| What a time that was...
|
| Really glad it is over and that it never got the point of me ever
| seeing such a thing.
| redrove wrote:
| Are you actually insinuating there still isn't a pandemic going
| on or am I misreading your comment?
|
| I don't see how this couldn't possible be anything but
| beneficial in public places.
| baggy_trough wrote:
| I mean, there isn't? Just endemic viruses, as we always have
| had, and always will have.
| redrove wrote:
| Putting that aside, don't you then agree ventilation in
| public spaces is useful for obvious health reasons?
| constantcrying wrote:
| Hilariously Air conditioning is very common in the US but
| very uncommon in Europe.
|
| Is there actually any evidence of a positive effect?
| eep_social wrote:
| The Minergie (Swiss) folks probably have a 90 page
| application guide that goes into those kinds of details:
| https://www.minergie.com/media/guia_de_aplicacion_latam_v
| 202...
| constantcrying wrote:
| Why are you just sending me a 90 page PDF about housing
| regulation. Obviously that does not contain a shred of
| scientific evidence that filtering certain particles
| reduces transmission of infectious diseases.
|
| Genuinely no idea what you are thinking with this or what
| the point of that PDF is.
| eep_social wrote:
| > housing regulation
|
| is it? I think you may want to do some research of your
| own.
| constantcrying wrote:
| Your document contains zero relevant information and you
| refused to point to any specific part of its 90 pages.
| Obviously you have no evidence for your claims and you
| made stuff up by linking to an irrelevant document and
| then being extremely obtuse and annoying when being asked
| to substantiate what you are saying or even to specify
| why the document contains relevant information.
|
| If you have zero evidence of a claim being true, stop
| making it.
| _def wrote:
| Maybe they are referencing that the article is from Dec 2020.
| I agree, it still seems highly useful.
| constantcrying wrote:
| Not a pandemic that has any relevance to me, above the
| prevalence of the common cold.
| nequo wrote:
| This is about more than pandemics, it is about indoor air
| quality in crowded spaces: "Our system also
| solves the long-standing problem of CO2 in classrooms, because
| it not only transports aerosols outside. It also cuts CO2
| accumulation, helping students to concentrate better on their
| lessons."
| constantcrying wrote:
| Oh, so Europeans have finally invented air conditioning?
|
| Of course when I was in school we opened the windows to solve
| this massive issue, but times change I guess. Hopefully they
| also have an app, for the kids.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| I'm not sure if you've ever lived in a place where you're
| not supposed to drink the tap water because it can bring a
| lot of disease. I think we as humans realized that water
| carried a lot of disease and in many places started
| treating water much better to protect our health. To me it
| seems very logical that we should also treat the air to
| protect our health from diseases carried in the air.
| constantcrying wrote:
| >I'm not sure if you've ever lived in a place where
| you're not supposed to drink the tap water because it can
| bring a lot of disease.
|
| Can't say I have ever done that.
|
| >To me it seems very logical that we should also treat
| the air to protect our health from diseases carried in
| the air.
|
| There is an absolutely great feature of air, which makes
| it totally distinct from water. If you open the window
| inside and outside air will mix. I know this is kind of
| miraculous and might just be a very big deal, but I think
| it could allow us to replace the stale air in the inside
| with fresh air from the outside.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| Fair point on that its vastness allows quick recycling.
| They do this in Germany a lot, where even in deep winter
| they'll open windows to recycle the air.
|
| I think there are a few challenges to this:
|
| 1) It's mostly manual, compared to an automatic
| ventilation system. Perhaps if it were more automated,
| I'd agree with you.
|
| 2) If it's very hot or cold or humid outside, I think
| doing this can impact indoor conditions and I'm not sure
| how much that energy cost compares to other forms of
| ventilation.
|
| 3) Not every part of an indoor space is very close to a
| window. Large indoor spaces, underground indoor spaces,
| small ebclosed areas such as bathrooms in the middle of
| homes, etc., may make it hard to just open a window and
| flush out the "bad" air.
| adolph wrote:
| It would be an interesting experiment to inject additional
| oxygen into school air supplies.
|
| On the other hand, following the principle of "train high,
| play low" it might be better to educate in lower oxygen and
| then add oxygen to workplaces.
| constantcrying wrote:
| Maybe, of course putting people permanently on oxygen to
| improve performance is not a viable alternative.
| nequo wrote:
| Your dismissive response is uncalled for. Air conditioning
| does not dispose of CO2 in the air, and opening the windows
| is not always feasible. For example, if the outside air is
| hot or humid. Ventilation has actual use cases.
| constantcrying wrote:
| >Air conditioning does not dispose of CO2 in the air
|
| Anything which circulates the air will remove it.
|
| >and opening the windows is not always feasible. For
| example, if the outside air is hot or humid.
|
| I can tell you with 100% certainty that hot or humid air
| does not prevent you from opening a window. I myself have
| done this multiple times.
| nequo wrote:
| Beyond a certain point, humid air causes mold and hot air
| makes it hard to get any work done. This is not some
| esoteric idea. The northern hemisphere has just gone
| through a two week heat wave.
|
| If your bio is up to date, I wish you the best in
| whatever your life situation.
| constantcrying wrote:
| >If your bio is up to date, I wish you the best in
| whatever your life situation.
|
| Thankfully it isn't. And I escaped from writing software.
| adolph wrote:
| >>Air conditioning does not dispose of CO2 in the air
|
| > Anything which circulates the air will remove [CO2]
|
| Circulation does not remove CO2, only displace it from
| one place to another. To remove it, you need a scrubber
| [0].
|
| 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_scrubber
| hedgehog wrote:
| This is a pretty cool project, it's basically a retrofit approach
| to what in industry is known as "displacement ventilation" or
| "stratification ventilation". In the US our typical approach is
| "mixing ventilation" where you try to mix and equalize the air
| everywhere within a space, then cycle a portion of the air
| through an air conditioner to get the temperature and humidity to
| the desired level. This is mechanically intensive, needs big
| ducts, and has the downside that contaminants in the air tend to
| get spread everywhere. Displacement ventilation uses the fact
| that hot and humid air rise, instead of mixing everything
| together it removes the most stale air at the top of the room and
| replaces it. Trickier to get right, but quieter and more
| effective in many cases.
|
| Here's a blog post with illustrations:
|
| https://blog.hoffman-hoffman.com/blog/the-basics-of-displace...
| kurthr wrote:
| For efficiency you need to minimize leakage of outside
| conditions, but you also really need a heat/energy exchanger
| (HRV/ERV) at the fresh air input so that you're not
| recirculating stale air.
| toast0 wrote:
| School buildings with operable windows often don't condition
| the air. This design collects / guides air from around the
| pupils towards an exhaust window and suggests leaving a door
| or opposite site window to get fresh air in. It's not a
| solution for highly conditioned spaces.
| adolph wrote:
| _Due to its low material and operating costs, it could turn out
| to be a clever alternative to expensive filter systems and
| ventilation by shortly wide opening the windows._
|
| This is a neat idea that seems penny smart and pound foolish. For
| one, the article does not address overall system reliability and
| maintenance tempo. Given a low material to install cost ratio
| this is an important factor since repeated re-installation or
| rework will moot any cost savings from materials.
|
| For two, ejecting the gases that have been expensively
| conditioned for thermal and humidity properties will drive up
| operating costs since replacement gasses will be required.
|
| For three, hopefully they carefully plan for where the system
| exhausts since they have made something that concentrates
| contaminants as well as it evacuates them. To the extent that it
| uses tragedy of the commons to get better odds for people indoors
| by worsening odds for people outside that building, the primary
| innovation of the system is statistical arbitrage based on a
| larger outdoor volume.
| toast0 wrote:
| > For two, ejecting the gases that have been expensively
| conditioned for thermal and humidity properties will drive up
| operating costs since replacement gasses will be required.
|
| This application optimizes exhaust in rooms with operable, high
| mounted windows for exhaust. Most rooms with expensive
| conditioning don't have operable windows, so it's not really an
| option to use this design for those anyway. In a heavily
| conditioned space, the expectation would be external air
| ventilation would be managed near the centralized air handlers.
| Plenty of options there, like HRV/ERV depending on climate
| specifics.
|
| It might be possible to use a similar design to augment air
| returns from a conditioning system, but it's going to depends
| on the system if it would be useful or reasonable.
| danjc wrote:
| (2020)
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