[HN Gopher] Evolving the ASF Brand
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Evolving the ASF Brand
Author : Tomte
Score : 50 points
Date : 2024-07-18 17:20 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.apache.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.apache.org)
| nathanwh wrote:
| I don't know that I've ever seen such a short article so clearly
| demonstrate how much don't actually care about the people who
| they are to trying to placate. They're changing the feather
| because it's apparently offensive to reference it, but they're
| not changing the name because it would cost money. Even though
| the name is way more tightly tied to the people than the feather.
| I don't actually care about the logo or the name I just find
| having the dichotomy so clearly spelled out interesting.
| kajecounterhack wrote:
| It's in the FAQ.
|
| _When a name has been in use as long and is as widely used as
| ours, the legal, technical, and financial ramifications are
| broad and deep. A name change effort would have a hefty price
| tag, would take multiple years to implement, and would have to
| be led almost entirely by volunteers. As a 501(c)(3) not-for-
| profit organization, it is not possible to divert the majority
| of our funding and volunteers away from our primary mission of
| providing software for the public good, especially as the
| foundation prepares for mandatory changes that will come from
| the Cybersecurity Resilience Act (CRA) and other pending
| legislation. Because of these very real challenges, at this
| time it would be very difficult to implement a legal name
| change for The ASF.
|
| Because of these reasons, the ASF Board has decided to
| prioritize changing the logo and branding and not changing the
| organization's name at this time. It is important to us that we
| take whatever actionable steps we can now to create a more
| welcoming and inclusive community._
| nathanwh wrote:
| I did read that part, I just feel that the idea that somehow
| something good comes from removing the feather (which is
| negligible expense relative to changing the name), is just
| plainly saying that we care about inclusivity but only so
| long as it's not expensive. Which is more or less the policy
| of every large organization, but it's rare that it gets said.
| kajecounterhack wrote:
| I read it as "we can't do it now because complex reasons,
| but we know it's still a problem and want to do it" and
| that feels pretty good. Like who's supposed to set the
| timeline for rectifying long-lived errors in judgement?
| Unwinding long-lived errors generally takes time.
| orra wrote:
| It's cheaper to change the name and logo in one go, than
| to change the logo; then later change the name and logo.
|
| I cannot agree they want to change the name, otherwise
| they would be.
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| AIU using the feather along with the Apache name could be
| seen as mindlessly evoking the stereotypical image of a
| native American as in naive 1950/1960s Western movies,
| which adds insult to the act of cultural appropriation that
| is merely using the name.
| toast0 wrote:
| Here's my cheap suggestion. Change the name from Apache
| Software Foundation to "A Software Foundation" (or even "ASF
| Software Foundation"). Change instances of 'Apache X' to 'ASF
| X'; ex Apache HTTPd becomes ASF HTTPd. The license becomes
| the ASF License.
|
| You can do it in steps. Anything that's currently Apache X
| could become ASF X on its own schedule. asf.org seems to be
| managed by a foundation that changed its name away from ASF
| in 2010, so it might be available (presumably at some cost)
| for the ASF to make use of to replace apache.org over time.
|
| This still costs money and time, but it would do the job over
| time, with a minimal upfront expenses.
| orra wrote:
| I appreciate your suggestion of the recursive acronym, ASF
| Software Foundation.
| exmadscientist wrote:
| The irony is that the name is much worse than just the logo.
| Feathers are pretty common, even if they're often associated
| with Native Americans. The word "Apache" is only one thing:
| the actual name of a Native tribe. So changing the logo
| without changing the name doesn't do much, while changing the
| name while keeping the logo would.
| mplewis wrote:
| They have addressed in TFA why they are changing the logo
| now and changing the name later.
| exmadscientist wrote:
| That doesn't make their explanation any good.
| orra wrote:
| There's no legal ramification of changing their name.
| Companies change their names every so often; it doesn't erase
| their legal rights or obligations.
|
| Technical? Not sure what huge problems they are, but as a
| Software Foundation you'd think they'd be well placed to deal
| with the issues.
|
| Financial? That may be true, but it costs less if you do it
| as part of the one branding refresh.
| rectang wrote:
| Just because the ASF's officers won't go to jail for
| changing the name doesn't mean there aren't any legal
| ramifications. Trademarks are a legal issue, for starters.
| Defending the Foundation's trademarks is a big part of what
| goes on, even if most of that work is done quietly and non-
| confrontationally.
|
| Technical issues would involve for example the apache.org
| domain, and all the security issues from decades worth of
| links pointing to it.
| orra wrote:
| A domain rewrite permanent redirect is pretty
| straightforward.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| If you change the name of your company without informing
| the bank, your creditors, your secured creditors, your
| shareholders, the state corporation commission, and your
| firms statutory agent, you will run into some legal
| problems quickly.
|
| The legal ramifications of changing your name is a ton of
| documentation, notification, and registration.
| orra wrote:
| You're not really describing that much effort in the
| scheme of things: make a filing and notify several
| parties. Annual accounts are a far bigger burden, and
| they have to be done.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| Okay, so based only on your own comments in this thread,
| would you say there are "no legal ramifications," or that
| there are legal ramifications that don't constitute "that
| much effort"? I'm left a little unclear from your posts.
| jjmarr wrote:
| Here's the blog posts that called out the ASF and prompted them
| to make this change.
|
| https://www.endasfmascotry.com/
|
| https://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/
|
| The quotes about the feather:
|
| > This essay introduced a few examples of Indian warriors with
| full headdress, but what if just one feather is presented--is it
| sufficient to conjure images of savage warriors? Well, probably
| not just one feather, unless it can be associated with some other
| stereotypical image. In this case, what if the feather is paired
| with the word "Apache"?
|
| > It is interesting that the Apache Web site provides a link to a
| Web site devoted to the Apache people, providing "stereotypical
| proof" that the feather symbol and the foundation name are
| designed to evoke images of the Apache people. This is all the
| more interesting in light of the fact that perhaps history's most
| photographed Indigenous warrior--the Apache Geronimo--was not
| inclined to adorn himself in this fashion. In fact, even
| Hollywood depictions of Geronimo eschew the feather look. Yet the
| stereotypical image of the feathered Indian persists.
| Yhippa wrote:
| Kinda strange to go from "a patchy server" to using Native
| American imagery in the logo, albeit a much less offensive in
| than American sports teams.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| The quote from Brian Behlendorf on the Natives In Tech page
| makes it clear that the name was always connected to the
| indigenous groups.
| rectang wrote:
| Kudos to the critics for raising the issue, and to the Foundation
| for engaging with them. The changing of the convention name and
| the changing of the logo represent incremental progress. Changing
| the name of the Foundation may be challenging, but more
| incremental progress is possible -- here are a couple ideas:
|
| * Encourage projects to go by just "Foo" rather than "Apache
| Foo".
|
| * Re-release the "Apache License 2.0" as the "ASF License 2.0".
|
| Disclosure: Although I haven't been active for years I'm a past
| ASF board member.
| pavi2410 wrote:
| I fail to understand what's wrong with the name "Apache".
| Is/Was he a dictator/mass murderer or something?
| svieira wrote:
| No, in this case someone (it's unclear who precisely since
| the linked blog doesn't have an About page) didn't like it.
| Why? Because using names that don't belong to you is stealing
| (according to their view). I'm not entirely sure I follow
| that line of reasoning, but looking at the blog that the ASF
| linked to which includes lines like:
|
| > But I've got thousands of years of (re)learning to do and
| will never have the power of the matriarchs, so I follow the
| lead of the women in my life and do as I'm told.
|
| https://blog.nativesintech.org/jeff-doctor/
|
| I suspect there's _a lot_ of context that is missing.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| It's no longer okay to reference or use symbols of other
| cultures, no matter how innocent or praising of that culture
| it might be without their permission.
| oddevan wrote:
| What someone outside the culture thinks is "innocent or
| praising" might not be seen that way by someone inside the
| culture. That's why we ask permission.
| svieira wrote:
| Who within the culture is empowered to authorize you? Can
| I ask _any_ Irishman for permission to use a shamrock? Or
| are there particular Irish personages who have authority
| and I must ask them?
| jsiepkes wrote:
| Dictators and mass murderer roots are not a problem.
|
| For example I don't think there is much fuss about Hugo Boss
| (Sponsor of the Nazi's, designed and produced the SS
| uniforms), Volkswagen (car brand literally created by the
| Nazi's), Porsche (Ferdinand Porsche was a decorated SS
| officer and Nazi party member) or Ford (Henry Ford was a big
| fan of the Nazi's and was even decorated by Hitler).
| mightyham wrote:
| Since you say this is progress, do you mind elaborating on what
| exactly this is progress toward? Even if the ASF fully changed
| their name tomorrow, what actual positive impact is that going
| to have on Native Americans?
| rectang wrote:
| It gains Native Americans agency when they are able to
| determine how their culture is portrayed and represented,
| rather than be told that they have no choice but to have bear
| the representation that is foisted on them.
|
| Self-determination doesn't show up as a bank sheet entry, but
| it's not meaningless.
| mightyham wrote:
| Native Americans have the agency/self-determination to
| portray themselves however they want regardless of the name
| of ASF.
|
| You seem to be arguing that Native Americans should have an
| exclusive right in determining how they are portrayed which
| is not only the opposite of progress, but is also treats
| them as a monolithic group, which is ignorant of sheer
| amount of diversity among Native Americans.
| atonse wrote:
| Also in this case, we don't have to generalize "Native
| Americans" but specifically the Apache peoples/tribes.
|
| What have they said about this?
| ifjnejfufj wrote:
| What a completely useless virtue signaling.
|
| Stand behind what you say and change also the name.
|
| Otherwise, don't waste community resources
| drewda wrote:
| When I see the word "evolving" used as a verb, I'm suspicious --
| corporate language often used to soften something with vagueness.
|
| But after reading this announcement, the substance is actually
| both meaningful and practical. Props to ASF's leaders.
| onli wrote:
| The idea that using a symbol across cultures is a
| misappropriation is an extension of the ideology that cultures
| should not mix. It's the thinking that everyone would be better
| of if each person stayed in their culture barrier - and you know
| which kind of thinking that is, from which political side on the
| spectrum. It's sad that an organisation like this feels the need
| to give legitimacy to that anti-multicultural ideology.
| acc4everypici wrote:
| I am bothered by the implicit assumptions around property and
| ownership over cultural symbols which are tacit in your
| thinking.
|
| as explicitly as I can, the very notion of saying "this is my
| culture, why are you adopting cultural practices or beliefs or
| symbols (or anything) from a culture that isn't _yours_!? " is
| why I'm raising a red flag here. I have a problem with that
| attitude.
|
| this is not an easy topic.
| jackbravo wrote:
| It is not easy. Personally, I'm on the other side of the
| fence. As Mexican, we often see our culture "misrepresented"
| in media. But generally, all my friends and family hate it
| when they "correct it".
|
| For example, we loved Speedy Gonzalez, Yepa yepa! Arriba
| Arriba! When he was canceled, I guess some people were
| bothered, but I'm sure there was no consensus around Mexicans
| whether we wanted it gone. I bet if you did a survey, most
| Mexicans loved the character. And the same happens with
| sombreros, nopales and huaraches. I love seeing people using
| them, people recognizing them, and even selling them (wish
| all times they were Mexican made, but hey, you can't have it
| all). It sometimes bothers us, especially when the stereotype
| affects us personally while looking for jobs, opportunities,
| etc. But I like having a strong culture that other people
| imitate, and would rather find ways to educate people in the
| wrong when the occasion arises and when it is not in our
| favor than just cancelling it for good.
| jackbravo wrote:
| I was curious and searched, and what do you know, I found
| an article about Mexicans defending Speedy Gonzalez: https:
| //www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-03-17/speedy-g...
| foobarian wrote:
| Funny that you mention that, because I grew up watching
| both Speedy Gonzales and the Tijuana Toads. The latter one
| especially was pretty non-PC given the combo Japanese and
| Mexican stereotypes.
| svieira wrote:
| I _suspect_ the impetus here is slightly different. Reading the
| linked blog the driving feature of this request seems to be
| more one of "re-asserting ownership and power" than one of
| "purifying and isolating cultures and bloodlines". And there
| are definitely reasons for people to want to assert their value
| and ownership. That said, I think the end result will be a more
| _literal_ erasure of these cultures as reminders that anything
| was here before the Denny's was erected are removed from common
| culture and parlance. But maybe a "smaller, purer" awareness is
| what the instigators want?
| brodouevencode wrote:
| > driving feature of this request seems to be more one of
| "re-asserting ownership and power"
|
| If that were the case it seems like the name change would
| assert that more than just a logo change. But that's not what
| happened.
| svieira wrote:
| In this case it's the "goals of the people asking for the
| change" not the "goals of the people delivering the
| change".
| onli wrote:
| Re-asserting ownership and power is, maybe somewhat not
| completely obvious, exactly how the far right historically
| branded their calls for cultural isolation.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| The problem with such isolationist tendencies is that at
| some point it becomes everyone shouting "dibs!".
| stefan_ wrote:
| On the other hand, this is exactly the kind of thing I imagine
| people at the Apache Software Foundation to spend their day
| doing. True rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic stuff
| here.
| captn3m0 wrote:
| As someone who will have to work on implementing this I don't
| like this wording:
|
| > Starting October 7, 2024, your usage of The ASF's logo must be
| in compliance with the new logo and brand guidelines that will be
| available on our Brand Guidelines page.
|
| If the logo is announced on 7th, how can someone be expected to
| adopt the new guidelines in a day. Why not just set it to 31 Oct
| or something? I know it wouldn't matter in practice since ASF
| wouldn't go after sites for using the old logo, but still.
| LinuxScribe wrote:
| This is a fair point, and we will make the timing more
| realistic.
| frou_dh wrote:
| I've always thought that the original neon-lookin' feather in
| particular looked great and was very memorable.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| Honestly I prefer type face logos. Way cleaner and zero issues
| dt2m wrote:
| What a major victory for birds all across the globe. A feather is
| not ours to steal and parade around as if it's our own culture.
| Maybe the ASF could replace this with a lock of human hair
| instead.
| cyrilou242 wrote:
| Can't wait for a cancel article from the Amazon people now.
| phatfish wrote:
| Unfortunately Amazonian tribes have far more important things
| to worry about.
| mightyham wrote:
| https://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/
|
| To be blunt, I think the arguments in this blog post are very
| weak. First of all, they completely fail to demonstrate how the
| name of ASF has any actual material impact on native peoples.
| Regardless of that glaring flaw, this piece focuses on the issue
| of respect for Apache culture and history. Framed another way,
| their thesis is that using the name of a nation for something
| unrelated is disrespectful, especially because this nation has
| suffered historical injustice.
|
| There are a couple ironies about this argument. One being that
| the ASF is a widely respected organization with noble efforts.
| They chose the name Apache because of admirable aspects of that
| peoples past. This leads to positive feelings and respectfulness
| toward the Apache people. Another irony is their claim that a
| name should be off-limits for other uses or by other people is
| exclusionary, entitled, and childish, which paints the Apache as
| a people who deserve less respect.
|
| The last thing I'll say is that their entire section about
| romanticization is just strange. In what world is attributing
| (even falsely) positive attributes to a nation/people a bad
| thing? They have a problem because it isn't dynamic enough? But
| why does historical memory have to be dynamic in the first place?
| I fail to see what is inherently virtuous about accurately
| deconstructing every topic all the time.
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