[HN Gopher] The Objects of Our Life (1983)
___________________________________________________________________
The Objects of Our Life (1983)
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 201 points
Date : 2024-07-18 13:43 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (stevejobsarchive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (stevejobsarchive.com)
| mseepgood wrote:
| Imagine spending 2-3 hours per day interacting with computers.
| kookamamie wrote:
| Yes, exactly! Those are newb numbers.
| behnamoh wrote:
| SJ was a true visionary. He had a philosophical and deep look at
| the computer revolution, and he was one of the few leaders who
| actually cared about building products he could recommend to his
| own friends and family.
| xeromal wrote:
| He was also a fantastic speaker. I watch his iPhone and other
| announcement videos from time to time and his ability is
| unparalleled. You can see how many modern day presentations are
| derived from his style
| bdcravens wrote:
| Another prescient "talk" is Douglas Engelbart's "Mother of
| all Demos", from 1968 where he shows off the mouse and other
| technologies that became commonplace. It feels remarkably
| contemporary and other than the obvious age of the video,
| feels like a modern day conference talk.
| xeromal wrote:
| Thanks for the recommendation. I'll be sure to watch it!
| bdcravens wrote:
| I meant to include a link, though it's not hard to find
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
| ohjeez wrote:
| I attended a few of his keynote speeches. The "reality
| distortion field" was real. It was impossible to look away
| from him. And no matter how cynical I was when I arrived, by
| the end of the presentation, I believed everything he said.
|
| (It helped that he was so often right.)
| dagmx wrote:
| I think a big difference between Apple and some of its
| competitors is Steve's inherent outlook.
|
| He clearly envisioned a world that he wanted to make. Even
| in these clips, it's clear he is thinking about the current
| state of things not being adequate for the vision he wants.
|
| When I look at Apple, and certainly the couple times I
| interviewed there, they have that same vision as part of
| their culture. In one of my interviews, I was asked about
| my own view of the future. Another time they asked me how
| we could avoid certain dystopian trends like proliferation
| of ads and reductions in privacy.
|
| Both times it was clear the product vision wasn't just
| monetary. To quote jobs from this talk, people wanted to
| give back to the world.
|
| I compare that to some other tech giants I've interviewed
| for and the focus is, how can we maximize returns.
|
| Apple certainly isn't perfect, and they've faltered many
| times, but I think there's the spirit of Steve in
| everything today.
|
| Often I ask the interviewers "What is customer value? Is it
| the value we provide to customers or the value we get from
| them?". Apple is the only place I've interviewed where
| people start with the former rather than the latter.
|
| Even though I was a heavy Android and windows guy going
| into those interviews, it did convince me to start paying
| more attention to their product vision and I eventually
| switched over. Sadly they went with an internal candidate
| but it was still very eye opening.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Except iPads for his children.
| keybored wrote:
| He looks like a cross between Ashton Kutcher and Roger Federer.
|
| EDIT: Tread lightly lest ye compare a god to mere mortals.
| thecolorblew wrote:
| Feels like your comment was downvoted for being irrelevant
| rather than the specific visual comparison that you were
| making.
| retskrad wrote:
| Do you see how Elon Musk behaves in real time? That was Steve
| Jobs in his day, but we didn't have social media, so we didn't
| get to see his tantrums. Both Jobs and Musk were known for
| thinking very little of people outside their personal circles. It
| just shows that human beings are innately attracted to mythology
| and love to romanticize authoritative figures, even when those
| figures display sociopathic tendencies. Maybe that's why polls
| say people think less and less of democracy and more and more of
| autocracy all over the world. We can say these people are
| changing the world but we should not forget that they are not
| role models.
| delichon wrote:
| It's hard to consider Jobs as sociopathic in the large when he
| created so much social value. And it's hard to imagine that he
| would have been quite so effective if he were more agreeable.
| So I think it's reasonable to consider the kind of rudeness
| that gets big things done at the cost of hurt feelings as
| something other than pathological.
| paxcoder wrote:
| If goodness is a necessary sacrifice for something, that
| something, whatever it may be, is not worth the sacrifice
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| > rudeness that gets big things done
|
| I think this is a myth, that major accomplishments require
| running roughshod over people.
|
| We also have a twisted idea of what "major accomplishments"
| are. Are Walmart and Amazon being supremely dominant in their
| industries, build on the back of wiping out much of small
| town America, and worker mistreatment, an "accomplishment"?
| delichon wrote:
| The iPhone was a major accomplishment. Its design was
| influenced by Jobs' ability to inform people when their
| work was not insanely great. Maybe he could have done that
| more gently. But lacking that rare talent it was a social
| good for him to do that anyway.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Yeah, not disagreeing with any of that. My contention is
| that it's not a _prerequisite_ to great accomplishments.
| meroes wrote:
| I never saw Jobs promote conspiracies and racism.
| samtheprogram wrote:
| Elon Musk promoted racism?
| n4r9 wrote:
| Apparently he has a history of retweeting/replying to
| tweets that make dubious claims linking crime with race and
| how it's "misrepresented" by the media.
| dagmx wrote:
| I think there's a massive difference between Steve and Elon.
|
| Perhaps if Steve had social media , things would be different.
| But he never took to the news to denigrate entire groups of
| people based on their gender and sexuality. He never had any
| scandals for calling people pedophiles. When he denied science,
| he only did so personally. Afaik I can find no evidence of him
| trying to influence politics significantly.
|
| I'm not saying Steve was a saint by any means. However, the
| level of sociopathy one can ascribe to Steve Jobs is a
| minuscule fraction of that of Elons to the point I question the
| logic of anyone making such a vague general comparison.
| spandrew wrote:
| Jobs' demanding personality and toxic managerial behaviour are
| well well well documented. Most of the documovies on him pay
| special attention to it.
|
| But he also did marvellous things for the advent of human-
| centric tech design that has been a boon for the regular
| people.
|
| An article or person is allowed to focus on his genius and
| invention without having to caveat them alongside his toxicity
| as well. This isn't intended to be an Art vs. Artist
| discussion.
| sourcepluck wrote:
| > But he also did marvellous things for the advent of human-
| centric tech design that has been a boon for the regular
| people.
|
| This is incredible to read. What planet are you writing that
| from? What we actually have is anti-human tech design, and it
| has not been a boon for "regular people" at all. We're more
| atomised, lonely, enraged, misinformed, embittered, addicted,
| and broken than ever. Democracratic structures, which were
| never perfect, are tottering on the edge of collapse, and
| some have already crashed. The "public square" is a cesspool
| of garbage. People are humiliated and disempowered and angry.
|
| Of course, the subset of the world who come from comfortable
| backgrounds with high-levels of education are statistically
| the ones best-placed to navigate the murky, shark-infested
| waters of modern "tech". That those same educated people
| idolise billionaires like Jobs and ignore the actual role
| tech plays in people's lives now shouldn't come as a
| surprise, I suppose.
| dannyobrien wrote:
| I have to ask: when you say "what planet are you from?", do
| you find it impossible (or at least very hard) to model
| someone thinking what the poster said? I guess, more
| precisely, do you think that the average person -- not
| educated with comfortable background, just average or low
| income -- is much more likely to share your opinion, than
| that of Steve Jobs and Apple being broadly positive?
|
| _My_ guess is that the majority people think of Jobs and
| Apple as being neutral to good, if they think of them at
| all. At the very least, lots of people who don 't fit into
| your privileged categories of Jobs apologists, still don't
| think of him as bad.
|
| Do you think those people have been misled? Why do you
| think you have more insight into the truth than them?
| sourcepluck wrote:
| I don't find it impossible, and it requires no modelling.
| From my anecdotal experience, it does seem that most
| people would have a neutral or positive view of Jobs and
| Apple.
|
| When I said "what planet are you from", I meant simply
| that what the poster was saying (Jobs did "marvellous
| things for the advent of human-centric tech") isn't true
| on this planet. That's all.
|
| I do think people have been misled, yes, but I wouldn't
| have guessed that would be a controversial point?
| Advertising is the art and science of misleading people,
| and we've never been so saturated in ads, morning til
| night.
|
| And finally (you asked a lot of small questions) I think
| I've more insight into the matter because I've read books
| and articles about this issue and related issues.
|
| On the actual question of whether on this planet Apple
| (Microsoft, Google, etc) have been a "boon for regular
| people", the book that struck me the hardest was probably
| "La Fabrique du cretin digital" by Michel Desmurgets, but
| I don't know if there's an English translation. There's
| lots of good stuff from Cory Doctorow. Ivan Illich, Neil
| Postman, etc.
|
| In summary - I wasn't saying it's a popular or majority
| opinion. I was saying that it's really true though, and I
| was even implying that people working in tech-related
| fields have no excuse for lying to themselves about it
| (although they've tons of incentive to do so, of course).
| geodel wrote:
| Well for lot of people the ones changing the world are role
| models. Gandhi was terrible to his family but he remain role
| model for billion people.
|
| > Maybe that's why polls say people think less and less of
| democracy..
|
| It could also be because democracy did not deliver the things
| people who voted were expecting.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| One big difference is Jobs didn't push his assholery on the
| world by taking over the world's dominant* social media
| platform to shape it in his own fashion.
|
| I greatly admire what Elon did to push the world into EVs where
| no one had succeeded before him. I also think all that power
| and money has amplified his weaknesses and turned him into
| someone who I would never want to be in a position of power
| over me or others.
|
| Elon also strikes me as very immature compared to Jobs, like a
| spoiled little brat.
|
| * one could argue that would be FB but the nature of Twitter
| made it the platform of choice for anyone who wanted to
| broadcast their thoughts (or news) vs connect with a group of
| followers
| sangnoir wrote:
| I'm sure if Jobs were alive to see the Cybertruck, he'd think
| that Musk has no taste.
| dang wrote:
| " _Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents._ "
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| fiatpandas wrote:
| Anyone know more about Steve's hifi setup in the famous "sitting
| on the floor with a lamp" photo?
| GruHe wrote:
| Read text under photos in gallery here:
|
| https://www.wired.com/2014/04/steve-jobs-stereo-system/
| fiatpandas wrote:
| Thanks! I'll have to figure out how to get around the pay
| wall.
| jgrahamc wrote:
| MK1 GyroDec
|
| Acoustat Monitor 3s
|
| Threshold FET-One preamp
|
| Threshold STASIS-1
|
| Denon TU-750s
| fiatpandas wrote:
| Perfect, thank you.
| Cockbrand wrote:
| Loads fully in an incognito window for me. That said, that
| preamp really is a thing of beauty!
|
| Older people like myself remember that the essential things
| you'd unpack after moving into a new apartment were the
| mattress and the multi-component stereo system. All the
| other things could wait for a few days/weeks/months. It's
| strange how _kids these days_ don 't really care any more
| about having a phat sound system in their apartments.
| Bluestein wrote:
| Headphones, to blame?
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/yRjgj
| nkotov wrote:
| A lot of awesome predictions that ended up being true: software
| trials, app store (he calls it the radio station for software),
| computers getting smaller and smaller, internet, 13/14 year olds
| creating businesses with apps, computers getting cheaper to under
| $1000.
| delusional wrote:
| He didn't as much predict it as made it. He obviously didn't do
| it alone, but he did spend a lot of his life making those
| predictions (really promises) come true.
| ds_opseeker wrote:
| "computers getting cheaper to under $1000."
|
| maybe not that one :)
| nkotov wrote:
| Mac mini but previously the iMac G3 was $999.
| y04nn wrote:
| Adjusted for inflation, $1000 of 1983 is more than $3000
| today.
| jethro_tell wrote:
| What is that adjusted for average wage?
| dagmx wrote:
| Page isn't loading for me. Here's a YouTube video (audio only)
| with the same description that I assume is the same content.
|
| https://youtu.be/2rqwi63Q1Gs?si=W7TZqVLCAj55mHkw
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| The OP includes an essay by Jony Ive about the talk, as well as
| some other annotated clips.
| nulld3v wrote:
| Yep and it also has a higher quality version of the video,
| with actual picture and clearer audio.
| indigoabstract wrote:
| > and points to the possibility that one day we might be able, in
| any given situation, to ask a computer, "What would Aristotle
| have said?"--and get an answer.
|
| Steve Jobs predicts ChatGPT. Off by 40 years, but nobody's
| perfect.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| ChatGPT can tell you "How would Aristotle have said X". But I'm
| afraid even full AGI wouldn't be enough to answer what he would
| have said.
| indigoabstract wrote:
| Oh well, I guess we'll never get there then.
|
| At least not until we invent time travel.
|
| Too bad.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| The great communicator.
|
| Was he speaking like this right from birth, a little baby, pacing
| around, pointing at his pacifier, saying 'this is crap, who
| designed this, make it a big soft breast, follow nature, curves'.
| moioci wrote:
| IIRC, on his deathbed he was complaining about the design of
| the hospital's suction catheters.
| sourcepluck wrote:
| > I find it breathtaking how profound his understanding was of
| the dramatic changes that were about to happen as the computer
| became broadly accessible. Of course, beyond just being
| prophetic...
|
| The author of this article should consider not reading any more
| about the history of computing for health reasons.
|
| If that takes their breath away, they're at serious risk of going
| into cardiac arrest if they keep going and discover some of the
| many other fascinating figures from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s who
| were enjoying speculating about the direction things would go in.
| imwm wrote:
| "The author of this article" is Jony Ive, who very possibly has
| dipped into other chapters of computer history
| cyanbane wrote:
| Do you mean Sir Jony Ive?
| sourcepluck wrote:
| I fail to see how the British monarchy's approval of Mr.
| Ive's career path is in any way relevant here, I'm afraid!
| EGreg wrote:
| Can someone PLEASE try to find and link me to the audio
| interview with an early computer pioneer (maybe Alan Kay but I
| forgot exactly who) on a radio show, I think it was a British
| one, where he tries to explain to the interviewer why general-
| purpose computers are important. Like how we will be able to
| find whatever file we want quickly, and I think he speaks about
| music playing as well, and maybe knitting
|
| Like the interviewer doesn't get why we need it and keeps
| talking about how we can already do the things like find books
| using the Dewey Decimal system.
|
| I remember listening to it and I can never seem to find it
| again. Anyone on HN know at least what the name of the show
| and/or interviewed person was?
|
| It is like Bill Gates on Letterman but it was a radio show from
| the 60-80s? and took place for 10-30 minutes or so.
| dgb23 wrote:
| I would like to see this as well.
| beezlewax wrote:
| https://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_D9DC82D997454711A71B586.
| ..
| EGreg wrote:
| Honestly, I remember now getting this interview, but it
| isn't it. I looked through the whole transcript and the
| interviewer was not skeptical of computers, there was
| hardly any mention of the Dewey Decimal system etc.
|
| Is there anything else? That one I had only audio, it a
| radio show I believe. And the guy was talking about music
| and dewey decimal system etc. Must have been 80s or 70s. It
| wasn't Alan Kay
| superphunthyme wrote:
| This one with Ted Nelson? https://youtu.be/RVU62CQTXFI
|
| It's got the skeptical interviewer, and at 9:56 (with
| some lead-in before) there is a discussion of libraries,
| catalogs, tagging, etc.
|
| Edit: and then he goes on to mention Dewey Decimal as
| well.
| EGreg wrote:
| Yess!! THANK YOU! For all these years, I couldn't find
| it. I appreciate this so much, thank you :)
| superphunthyme wrote:
| Welcome :)
| nsriv wrote:
| I looked very superficially and found this interview:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=275FQ9koAw8
| dang wrote:
| Can you please not post snarky dismissive comments to HN? We're
| really trying for the opposite here, to the extent that is
| possible on the internet.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| sourcepluck wrote:
| I wasn't attempting to be snarky or dismissive. I was framing
| my point in a playful, jokey way, sure, but it's not a snarky
| or dismissive point in itself.
|
| I would like to think at least some people got that.
|
| All I'm saying is that the 1980s (and the preceding decades)
| were full of people predicting and describing all sorts of
| things that then happened (as well as others getting it
| totally wrong). To find Jobs in 1983 "breathtaking" and
| "prophetic" is, to me, a bit of a hyperbolic take,
| considering the reality of that moment in history. Lots of
| interesting people were imagining the future, and making it
| happen.
| criddell wrote:
| I think that picture of Jobs in a room with a Tiffany lamp and
| his stereo is interesting. I don't like the lamp and that doesn't
| look like a room in which I would want to spend much time.
|
| But it does make me think about my space and my stuff.
|
| What are the objects you own that feel extraordinarily well
| designed? Jobs' lamp is likely still plugged in someplace. Will
| your favorite objects still be admired 40 years from now?
| ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote:
| You made me go back and re-look at that pic. Totally agree with
| your thoughts. It's really hard for me to buy something I don't
| "love". On the other hand, I need to be practical with my money
| and just be content with a mediocre product much of the time.
|
| Can anyone tell me about those floor speakers in the back
| corners of the room?
|
| edit: nvm someone answered in another comment:
| https://www.wired.com/2014/04/steve-jobs-stereo-system/
| criddell wrote:
| I looked again and I actually love the room, just the way it
| is furnished isn't at all appealing to me. Great stereo but
| with all those hard surfaces, it probably doesn't sound
| great.
|
| The room itself though - those big windows and that
| fireplace? I love that and with enough books and the right
| furniture and some great art, the place could be super cozy
| and inviting. I'd probably even like the lamp more if it were
| part of an overall design.
| ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote:
| It's definitely a bachelor pad in the pic. These days I'd
| definitely want some sofas, pillows, and rugs in there.
| Would probably even make the hi-fi sound better. And yes,
| the lamp stays!
| WillAdams wrote:
| I hope that my kids and whoever their heirs are will value the
| case I made for my Bear Custom Kodiak takedown bow and arrows
| and various accouterments:
|
| https://www.lumberjocks.com/showcase/archery-case-ascham-of-...
|
| https://www.lumberjocks.com/attachments/350203-jpg.253202/
| kolanos wrote:
| I assume most HNers have seen this, but if you haven't seen The
| Mother Of All Demos, you owe it to yourself to see what was
| possible in 1968 but wouldn't be taken seriously for another
| 15-30 years. [0]
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
| Bluestein wrote:
| The whole story of the lengths the team involved went to to
| make it work, transparently is incredible on itself.-
| quacked wrote:
| What an excellent speaker. Despite many moral issues with his
| character, I am a big admirer of Jobs in a professional capacity.
|
| I have found that audiences genuinely appreciate when you speak
| powerfully and simply; you can rephrase something like
|
| > "we're considering many different possible pathways, and some
| of them we're finding are less optimized to meet our
| institutional goals"
|
| to
|
| > "we're not sure what to do, and so far most of the ideas we
| thought of were pretty bad"
|
| and your audience laughs and leans in. I try to emulate that
| Jobs-ian style at work and a lot of people seem to like my
| presentations.
|
| I think people really like it when someone takes the
| responsibility of standing up and saying "let's not
| overcomplicate this, I'll take responsibility for making the
| decisions and I don't spend a lot of time trying to hide my real
| level of knowledge. In fact, I may know less than some of you."
| (Even if that's probably not true.)
|
| Another good (albeit hyperbolic) example of this is Jeremy Irons'
| speech near the end of Margin Call (2011) where he tells the
| junior analyst to "speak to me as if I am a very small child, or
| possibly a golden retriever." In fact, that's also an explicit
| direction given to flight controllers at NASA during their
| training.
| Bluestein wrote:
| > where he tells the junior analyst to "speak to me as if I am
| a very small child, or possibly a golden retriever
|
| That entire scene is gold.- - "Sell. Sell it
| all. Today"
| Crazyontap wrote:
| I have a deep admiration for Steve Jobs and the revolutionary
| impact Apple had on the computing world. They truly had the
| potential to push the boundaries of innovation even further.
| However, it's disappointing to see how they have clamped down on
| innovation under the guise of security. By turning against
| hackers, who were once their allies, they have stifled the very
| spirit of creativity and exploration that once defined them.
|
| In contrast, I'm grateful for my Android phone. Despite its own
| set of issues, it still allows me the freedom to root it and
| truly own my device. This openness fosters a community of
| innovation and experimentation, something that Apple seems to
| have moved away from. It's a reminder that while security is
| important, it shouldn't come at the cost of stifling innovation
| and user freedom.
| Ilya_Stremovsky wrote:
| I'm no Steve, but I'm shamelessly stealing the structure for my
| next "What's up with AI" talk.
| walterbell wrote:
| 1h audio of 1983 speech and Q&A responses, digitized from
| cassette in 2012, http://lifelibertytech.com/2012/10/02/the-lost-
| steve-jobs-sp...
|
| Is there more video than the few minutes in OP?
| layer8 wrote:
| Scroll further down in the OP, it has the full video.
| w10-1 wrote:
| Heraclitus plead, "Listen not to me but the logos (word)"
|
| i.e., to honor SJ, it may be best to pick up his work - to
| respect what he respected - instead of lining up in idolatry.
|
| In this case, the key insight about design is not that it's
| beautiful.
|
| Because the personal computer would be so useful that it would
| become pervasive, it was an incredible opportunity to inject some
| beauty and joy into many, many interactions, and thus if not
| enliven people at least counter the deadening effects of
| continuous interaction with purely functional affordances. Steve
| was asking designers to see it as such (and not as a threat to
| their traditional tools and value vectors).
|
| We in society are trapped by the things we need to live at this
| scale and level of coordination. At a minimum, don't be evil. But
| that's not all.
|
| In 2024, the situation has reversed: generations have become
| conditioned by the attention economy, to the point that everyone
| - small children to our best tech leaders - are making sound-bite
| reactive emotional decisions shaping our future.
|
| Tech affords not just the opportunity to influence. It's
| realizing that other people made your capabilities and everything
| you depend on, and you're responsible for doing the same, to make
| it possible for future people to live a good life.
|
| I think SJ took it as a responsibility instead of an opportunity
| because as an adopted person he directly experienced the
| contingency of nuture and appreciation for the people who did
| raise him.
|
| "the ability to put something back into that pool of human
| experiences is extremely neat" - SJ, remembered by Jony Ives
| Bluestein wrote:
| > generations have become conditioned by the attention economy,
| to the point that everyone - small children to our best tech
| leaders - are making sound-bite reactive emotional decisions
| shaping our future.
|
| Totally on point. Kudos.-
| pixelmonkey wrote:
| All I could think about when listening to this interesting clip
| is, "How many young people, today, even have any idea what he's
| talking about, re: computers being ugly and hard to use?" Since
| this is 1983, he's obviously talking about IBM PCs[1] and DOS[2]
| -- not even MS Windows (Windows 3.1[3] wouldn't arrive until
| 1993, a full decade later). But that might be lost on younger
| listeners today.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC%E2%80%93compatible
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS
|
| [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.1#Windows_3.1
| dagmx wrote:
| It's funny but when I talk to my younger brothers friends (only
| a few years apart), they have never had to deal with the
| multitude of ports (scsi, vga, ps/2 etc) , multitude of media
| types (floppy, zipdrive, cassettes, dv tape etc) or even tasks
| like defragmentation of hard drives.
|
| What a wonderful boon that is to entire generations. As Steve
| says, today you can't even imagine it any other way.
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