[HN Gopher] Psilocybin desynchronizes the human brain
___________________________________________________________________
Psilocybin desynchronizes the human brain
Author : kieckerjan
Score : 140 points
Date : 2024-07-17 16:10 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| sowut wrote:
| incredibly powerful drug. we should be training a legion of
| mystics using psilocybin instead of criminalizing it and
| obfuscating the implications of its use
| jiveturkey wrote:
| > MEQ30 Mystical Experience Questionnaire
| jkingsman wrote:
| See more info here: https://psychology-tools.com/test/meq-30
| jkingsman wrote:
| This concerns Functional Connectivity[0], which is basically a
| measure of how temporally correlated regions are; those that fire
| in sync or in a strongly correlated pattern are functionally
| connected.
|
| Essentially, the TL;DR of this study is that psilocybin's 5-HT2A
| agonism seems to reduce synchronized FC activity not just in
| neurons but the whole brain: psilocybin makes parts of the brain
| overall that otherwise work together (in a time-correlated sense)
| stop displaying time-correlation. These results were seen most in
| the Default Mode[1] network, which is more or less the brain
| system in operation when you are inside your head -- daydreaming,
| thinking, remembering, etc. -- as opposed to processing visual
| cues or observing the physical world.
|
| [0]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_functional_connectivit...
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network -- this
| article is one of those that just blows my mind clean out my ears
| (heh); the brain is such a wonder.
| jppittma wrote:
| I think the fact that nobody knows how to deal with negative
| correlations in functional connectivity takes away from the
| validity of the whole concept. People literally throw out
| negatively correlated voxels/ROI's. This, on top of the fact
| that functional connectivity is only related to physical
| connectivity in the abstract. (it's about the correlated time
| series activity in pixels over time, and isn't bound by any
| cellular connectivity). I just struggle to discern any meaning
| from the concept.
| free_energy_min wrote:
| any source that mentions throwing away negative correlations?
| robwwilliams wrote:
| I second the question below. The phase, magnitude, and
| polarity are all used. Yes, sure, you can focus on sub-
| systems with positive correlation under the presumption that
| joint increases in signal signify joint increases in O2 use
| and neuronal activity. Functional connectivity is functional
| more relevant than mere axonal connectivity. Only a small
| fraction of an axonal arbor -- its collection of presynaptic
| terminals---is functionally and reliably coupled to
| postsynaptic targets.
| nikkwong wrote:
| Yeah, this is super interesting. The obvious follow up for me
| is what implication this desynchronization has on cognition.
| People who have done a lot of psilocybin tend to be quite a bit
| 'different' at least in my experience--they tend to be more
| reserved, maybe a bit more thoughtful, slower, introspective,
| etc.
|
| But what causes this change in personality? People who have
| done a lot of psilocybin seem to be a lot less worried, a lot
| less neurotic, and a lot less wrapped up in the ego than those
| who haven't. After all, who wants to be wrapped up and
| ruminating based on the content of their thoughts? I've always
| thought of this behavior by those who have used psilocybin to
| be a feature, not a bug--as if they're enlightened.
|
| But if, say, this newfound personality is the result of a loss
| in functional connectivity--what does that tell us about how
| other markers of cognitive function have changed? Is strong FC
| a prerequisite for strong executive function or other measures
| of intelligence? The paper seems to suggest that the changes in
| FC are associated with the default mode network and maybe not
| other states of brain focus.
|
| But will a macro dose of psilocybin, say--make someone better
| at their job? Maybe we don't know yet, and maybe there won't be
| a clear answer; there is a lot of heterogeneity in the way
| people think, and how they exploit their own cognitive
| abilities to provide value in the world--so maybe a loss in FC
| will mean different things to different individauls. But given
| the suggestion from this paper that the effects of psilocybin
| may be somewhat permanent, the answer to this question will be
| a very useful for those looking to benefit from this
| therapeutic.
| robwwilliams wrote:
| The study uses cool methods but they are still at very crude
| global level and the temporal resolution is poor. Functional
| synchrony (or para-synchrony) is more of an initial pointer
| to the much faster synaptic processing we really would love
| to understand better. the ither limit is that fMRI studies
| focus on relatively large chunks of cortex, but lots of
| critical changes are sub-cortical. I'd love to see a focus on
| thalamo-cortico and cortico-thalamic modulation. I suspect
| these connections are just as important as cortico-cortical
| and cortico-hippocampal connections.
|
| Finally, there will be a great deal of individual
| differences. One story will not fit all of us.
| trumps-ear-bug wrote:
| This can be a good thing, to reboot your brain
| notnaut wrote:
| While the analogies are often useful, everyone reading HN
| comments should be very aware and very skeptical of just how
| often computer/tech people rely on computer/tech analogies to
| understand things that are fundamentally not computers/tech.
|
| It is very very easy for smart people with functionally specific
| jobs/hobbies/ways of thinking to see all reality through that
| narrow window. It often leads to important details being glossed
| over or entirely missed. The more self-confident ones quickly
| start seeing the analogies as fundamental facts, usually with
| negative consequences like loss of empathy or a tendency to see
| big picture generalizations as specific universal truths.
|
| Mushrooms have had a similar effect on me at times. You can start
| feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Similar to religiously
| "knowing" something. And that feeling of knowing is hard to
| overcome. But it is just a feeling.
| codr7 wrote:
| I would argue it's way more meaningful...
|
| It's unconscious knowledge; maybe not ready to hit the surface
| yet, but still actively affecting your life from within.
|
| Whatever glimpses you get is just what you're capable of
| dealing with atm. Everybody's experience is different.
| stvltvs wrote:
| It might clarify things to say unconscious beliefs,
| expectations, or thought patterns instead of knowledge. It
| doesn't seem that the subconscious mind is a font of pure
| wisdom and knowledge but it powerfully affects us in ways
| that our conscious mind isn't aware of, by definition.
|
| Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves
| by questioning the difference between knowing something and
| feeling like we know something.
| mock-possum wrote:
| One thing that a lot of people struggle with is seeing
| their feelings as 'just' feelings - it's got to be
| something to do with our biology, where we instinctively
| seek out and cling to answers for _why_ we feel a certain
| way - to justify our feelings I guess - instead of
| recognizing them as 'just' feelings, and seeing that
| instinct for what it is - 'blind' instinct that can easily
| seduce us into false beliefs.
| codr7 wrote:
| Yeah, feelings are real.
|
| Though most of them probably have very little to do with
| you.
| throwaway_82467 wrote:
| I'm convinced this is actually a symptom of using psychedelics.
|
| Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely
| seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among
| myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot
| of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of
| the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or
| similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or
| reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about
| taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open",
| and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching
| onto some profound truth or significant idea.
| bubblyworld wrote:
| I've never been sure which way the causation goes (if any),
| but I've known three people so far who had psychotic breaks
| after an intense mushroom trip. Similar to what you wrote - a
| sudden obsession with conspiracy theories and/or intense
| religious persuasions. Something they all had in common was
| being very confident and self-assured to begin with, which
| makes me wonder if it's particularly risky for those kinds of
| people? They all recovered, fortunately.
| ajb wrote:
| Your theory reminds me of this (long) article:
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-
| way-...
| bubblyworld wrote:
| I've had similar experiences on mushrooms (and high doses of
| marijuana too, to a lesser extent). It feels like a mix of
| intense awe and the the satisfactory "click" of finally
| understanding something to me. I'm quite sure it's more of an
| emotional state than "fundamental truth", or anything like
| that, but it sure is powerful.
|
| Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the
| stuff.
| sdwr wrote:
| Mythology, also procedure.
|
| If I am a member of a tribe that uses ceremonial ayhuasca at
| regular intervals, I will build my relationships around that
| cycle, so the feeling of awe and understanding corresponds
| with an actual personal breakthrough or meaningful group
| event. That's the 10x use case
| bubblyworld wrote:
| That's an interesting idea, thanks. I might consider trying
| it!
| jdietrich wrote:
| _> That's the 10x use case_
|
| It might be, or it might be a ritual that has no meaningful
| benefit. There's a huge amount of hype around psychedelics,
| but extremely limited evidence with a very high risk of
| bias.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| > It feels like a mix of intense awe and the the satisfactory
| "click" of finally understanding something to me.
|
| I almost wonder if all of this is simply because drugs can
| produce a strong anti-anxiety / euphoric effect, providing a
| powerful sense of confidence in one's convictions.
| progmetaldev wrote:
| As well as the complete opposite effect for certain
| individuals, which I think is just as important to study to
| help those that have these reactions. I can imagine the
| mythology built around visions of Hell/negative afterlife
| could have just as easily been sparked by negative
| psychedelic experiences.
| superturkey650 wrote:
| It also seems to remove my ability to contextualize things
| which means I can't find flaws in my understanding of
| something as easily. This works for both good/euphoric
| things, where I feel like I know something (but really I
| can't find the flaws in my reasoning), and for bad/anxiety
| things, where I can feel really bad and spiral on something
| because I get focused on one particularly bad aspect and
| can't see the full picture.
|
| I feel like this is why drugs can sometimes help with
| creative things, especially if you're familiar with the
| drug, as long as you can harness this decontextualization
| to put more of your focus on one thing, kind of like
| clearing your mind. However, its usually fruitless/harmful
| in anything requiring complex reasoning/judgement because
| it is reducing your ability to see the big picture.
| itronitron wrote:
| Feeling "it is just a feeling" is also just a feeling.
| notnaut wrote:
| Not in the sense I meant. The "enlightenment" confidence and
| awe-struck assuredness is the feeling and it comes from deep
| inside.
|
| Recognizing that confidence and assuredness are not knowledge
| is not quite the same as those feelings themselves. Though I
| do recognize this is sort of recursive and cyclical and
| ultimately there's nothing but some type of faith to build
| everything on, including doubt/skepticism.
| baq wrote:
| Absolutely not.
|
| Feeling "it is just a feeling" is being grounded in reality
| and affirming your senses and convictions are volatile and
| shouldn't be trusted.
|
| Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is...
| not.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Not really, have you ever tried to articulate one of your
| "big epiphanies" while on hallucinogens? In my experience
| (and experience of people I'm with) it inevitably comes out
| as babble. Maybe that's just because the insight is too
| profound to capture with language but somehow I doubt it
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Actually we overload the word "feeling" to include thoughts
| and perceptions which are not feelings. Like "I feel sad" is
| a feeling. "I feel like you are being a jerk" is not a
| feeling it is a thought or perception.
| uoaei wrote:
| There are ways things can be computers that don't require the
| typical setup of a von Neumann architecture. Psilocybin taught
| me that. My education and subsequent studies confirmed that.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| > You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths.
|
| Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia
| (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago.
|
| I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd
| just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or
| couldn't be explained.
|
| Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the
| antipsychotics for a few years
|
| The only permanent damage is that every medical professional
| says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause
| they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some
| other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.
| DaoVeles wrote:
| My favorite shrooms story is from reddit.
|
| Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and
| would get answers but they could never remember them the next
| day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write
| down the answers.
|
| They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?".
| When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was
| "walls".
|
| It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically
| meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.
| philip1209 wrote:
| Cool paper.
|
| I know some tech people have been donating to psilocybin research
| - is there any apparent connection to this study?
| jdietrich wrote:
| No.
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07624-5#Ack1
| TechDebtDevin wrote:
| PSA: My buddy shot himself in the head while we were on shrooms
| in our twenties. He thought he meant God, took a shower picked up
| a gun and shot himself in the head.
|
| While I've had trips since then and do get benefits from those
| experiences. People without experience should be careful,
| especially if you have a history of mental illness. He did have a
| history to some degree but not overtly.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Not sure if the guidance to do shrooms in
| an appropriate setting and with an appropriate mindset ("set
| and setting") would have helped, but certainly that guidance is
| no joke!
|
| And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about
| the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but
| must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every
| person. We must learn more about these conditions.
| ddingus wrote:
| Thanks for that PSA. And here's to your lost friend!
|
| I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took
| hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a
| legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job.
| We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people.
| And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from
| that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which
| will get me through. I miss him terribly.
|
| Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that,
| and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now
| we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially,
| it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently
| myself.
|
| Anyhow... hard lessons!
|
| Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as
| I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous
| breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to
| breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with
| some of the product and his physiology.
|
| It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel
| and hard to watch.
|
| Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very
| strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have
| helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to
| try. Doctors had nothing.
|
| End sidebar.
|
| These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with
| considerably greater risks than many of us know too.
|
| Good PSA. Seconded.
|
| Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't
| yet.
|
| And that will improve with proper study using the scientific
| method.
|
| If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful
| argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the
| powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.
| voisin wrote:
| > And that will improve with proper study using the
| scientific method.
|
| How about just having supervised sites with trained trip
| sitters so that people don't have the ability (under the
| influence) to do irreversible things? Perhaps in a
| therapist's/doctor's office.
| ddingus wrote:
| Did you read what I shared?
|
| Yes, that would be better than a free for all. Of course.
|
| The guy I lost had unique physiology that meant he was
| unable to use a substance most can with far fewer worries.
|
| We have that data point now, and I hope it made it into the
| literature too.
|
| But getting it was expensive! Cost one good person, and
| left a family without a father and many other souls, myself
| included, hurting.
|
| More is needed.
|
| And I am not saying your suggestion is bad. I sure do not
| see it that way.
|
| It is just inadequate in light of the real problem space,
| that's all.
|
| And remember, just taking it IS an irreversible thing. For
| most, that is not a big deal.
|
| For some, it is a HUGE deal and the hard fact is we do not
| understand who is who in all that.
|
| Peace, live well, play safe.
| defgeneric wrote:
| Why didn't they use a respirator?
| ddingus wrote:
| They did. But things slip, machines fail, etc.. it is quite
| insidious.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Part of the lesson of this story is the danger of having a gun
| in the home at all. He could have been sober and depressed and
| did the same just as easily thanks to having access to a gun.
| There's a lot of statistical evidence for how dangerous
| situations like depression or domestic violence can become once
| a gun is nearby.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| Your first statement is not supported by the second. Yes, in
| a DV situation or a situation where someone has severe mental
| illness, it's probably not a good idea to have easy access to
| a firearm.
|
| But if you actually look at the numbers, the average firearm
| is not used in self-defense, nor is it used to endanger a
| family member. The vast majority just . . . sit there.
| They're machines which must be used respectfully and
| responsibly, not magic evil talismans.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| > The vast majority just . . . sit there.
|
| This is irrelevant to the statement that having a gun
| around is more dangerous than not having a gun around.
|
| https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-
| owner...
|
| https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-
| homi...
| 613style wrote:
| Yet it remains true that not having magic evil talismans in
| my house makes it very unlikely that my family or I get
| cursed by accident.
| jrussino wrote:
| > if you actually look at the numbers, the average firearm
| is not used in self-defense
|
| Those aren't really the numbers you'd want to look at,
| right? If you have a community with 1000 firearms and 499
| of them end up being used in a shooting you could still
| assert that "most firearms are never used".
|
| I think what you'd care about in assessing risk is: what is
| the likelihood of violent injury and/or death in household
| with firearms vs households without? Controlled for other
| relevant factors?
|
| I've never seen this particular assessment presented in the
| way I've described it, but then again it sounds like there
| are some political hurdles to studying gun violence:
| https://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-
| viole...
| luluthefirst wrote:
| Most landmines also just sit there.
| jeremiahbuckley wrote:
| A user named observationist made a response to this post, but
| they responded to a troll, whose comment was nuked which
| removed their very valuable comment (I was responding to them
| at the time so I happened to have both in cache).
|
| observationist
| https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist original
| comment:
|
| Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a
| lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the
| person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a
| schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or
| less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in
| cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to
| living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a
| psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances,
| and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from
| reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress,
| caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be
| triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger,
| and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip"
| into a much worse trauma.
|
| Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental
| disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe
| but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases,
| it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances
| generally, and psychedelics in particular.
|
| It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood
| that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have
| a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the
| people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I
| know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia
| and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started
| using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked
| things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk -
| apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with
| significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to
| occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to
| engage in psychedelics when you're older.
|
| If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at
| least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and
| do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you
| intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure
| from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a
| stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on
| the dose and preparation.
|
| my response:
|
| Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative
| comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that
| might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information,
| but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least
| you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading
| besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it.
|
| Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide
| links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed
| them to see if they supported the statement. They are
| repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but
| they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article
| does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't
| support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming
| it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in
| ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put
| all the articles at the top here:
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4
|
| https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
|
| https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophren...
|
| https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia
|
| https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pul...
|
| https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk...
|
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
|
| The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but
| also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on
| available research.
|
| 1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia:
|
| - The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately
| 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper
| bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization
| (WHO)) .
|
| - Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early
| thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women
| (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health
| Organization (WHO)) .
|
| - Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures,
| and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing
| schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World
| Health Organization (WHO)) .
|
| 2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks:
|
| - The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger
| psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by
| evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from
| hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some
| cases (Psychiatric Times) .
|
| - Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life
| changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities
| (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
|
| 3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health:
|
| - Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with
| a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health
| disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult
| healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use
| (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
|
| - Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-
| induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the
| type of substance being a significant predictor of this
| transition (Psychiatric Times) .
|
| 4. General Mental Health Considerations:
|
| - Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant
| mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these
| individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including
| psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE:
| This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article
| doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done
| personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement
| is supported by other research.]
|
| - Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are
| recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify
| potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
|
| 5. Later-Life Considerations:
|
| - The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is
| indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a
| lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered
| by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
|
| For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may
| refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health
| (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent
| research studies on the global burden and risk factors of
| schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World
| Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the
| Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides
| detailed information on the safety and risks associated with
| psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
| core_dumped wrote:
| Similar thing. My good friend and early college roommate took
| his own life with a gun after having a bad trip. I wasn't there
| for it, but the way he described it he felt ridiculed and
| deserted by his old high school friends during the trip. He was
| left alone to deal with these feelings.
|
| His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became
| highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the
| people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a
| sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs
| in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing
| paintings. I wish I still had them.
|
| This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a
| national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and
| she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down.
| Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he
| wasn't alone. He ended up shooting himself with his
| grandfathers rifle.
|
| I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can
| accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of
| them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem
| kinda off.
| INTPenis wrote:
| Everyone who has tripped hard and come out unscathed can
| consider themselves lucky to have such a strong constitution. I
| am a firm believer in that psychdelics are wonderful, but
| powerful. And not everyone can handle the experience. At one
| end might be a slightly anxious trip, but at the other end is a
| complete breakdown of your reality.
| lawlessone wrote:
| >Healthy adults were tracked before, during and for 3 weeks after
| high-dose psilocybin (25 mg) and methylphenidate (40 mg), and
| brought back for an additional psilocybin dose 6-12 months later.
|
| Not simultaneously I hope.. that sounds like it would be a rough
| ride
| jkingsman wrote:
| No, they were separate dosages to compare FC effects.
| titanomachy wrote:
| "[methylphenidate] was selected as the active control condition
| to simulate the cardiovascular effects and physiological
| arousal (that is, controlling for dopaminergic effects)
| associated with psylocybin"
| brotchie wrote:
| "it can generally be assumed that there is approximately 15 mg
| (+/- 5 mg) of psilocybin per gram of dried mushroom" -Wikipedia
|
| So 25mg is ~1.5g of dried mushrooms.
|
| Decent dose, but not a "omg I'm one with the universe."
|
| For instance, a "Hero Dose" typically starts at 5g of dried
| mushrooms, so ~3x the dosage used in the study.
|
| Though it's possible the uptake rate using their dosing
| mechanism is much higher than "stomach acid digested dried
| mushrooms."
| mistrial9 wrote:
| some kinds of mushrooms can grow tolerance fairly quickly,
| also.. based on info from a friend
| poikroequ wrote:
| Reading this feels an awful lot like watching the video about the
| retro encabulator.
| empath75 wrote:
| I can't think of anything in the world I would enjoy doing less
| than completing "a simple auditory-visual matching task" while in
| an MRI scanner on shrooms.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| The set and settings researchers typically use for usual psych
| studies are going to bias psychedelic results so much. Think
| that building you hated in undergrad's crusty unlit cinderblock
| basement with no windows but coated in cameras and microphones.
| Its so dystopian, you are literally a caged rat. I don't think
| you can perform this research in good faith without having
| experienced a proper trip yourself. It's just impossible to put
| into words much less gleam any actual understanding from
| written description of it.
|
| Science needs more Albert Hoffman's who are willing to couple
| their knowledge with this experience without fear of being
| fired from IRB violation and ostracized by the scientific
| community. Otherwise we will forever be grasping in the dark
| with these drugs.
| titanomachy wrote:
| gleam -> glean
| progmetaldev wrote:
| I agree, they can already be mentally uncomfortable if you
| don't like enclosed spaces. Perhaps there's some kind of
| psychotherapeutic techniques used prior to getting in the MRI
| during the come up period, to kind of boost positive emotion
| about the whole process.
| lucidrains wrote:
| Indeed, the best setting is in nature on a beautiful day
| Unbefleckt wrote:
| While it's amusing in the short term, the long term side effects
| for me were awful. I felt like my brain was slow and unfocused, I
| was no longer quick in conversation or able to concentrate as
| well as usual, I felt disconnected from myself, sort of like when
| you recall a memory so old that it seems like it belongs to
| someone else, I had a headache for almost 3 weeks.
|
| Throwing this in here as there are a fair few "dude just take
| drugs" comments and worry they might be the religious types.
| cthalupa wrote:
| That's interesting, because I don't that anyone really has
| reported these side effects and I don't believe there are any
| known pharmacological effects from psilocybin or psilocin that
| would cause any of that.
|
| Were they dried mushrooms you ate? Do you trust the provenance
| of them? If they were a chocolate bar or similar, many of those
| do not actually have psilocybin or psilocin in them, and are
| instead using a variety of different research chemicals that
| are significantly less understood. If it was dried mushrooms,
| there are a variety of species that induce hallucinogenic
| effects through other chemicals than what you find in your
| usual magic mushrooms.
|
| They might have been regular shrooms, of course - people react
| to things differently - but that's a different enough outcome
| that I wonder if it wasn't something else entirely.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| Mushrooms are very contradictory in their nature to the modern
| "cog in the machine" lifestyle. It's a bit like being subjected
| to a software fuzzer. I imagine if learning from one's inputs,
| one will be afterwards less sure of concepts one was very sure
| about, but also less sure about concepts thought previously to
| be impossible. That will surely increase cognitive load,
| especially when one's life is pretty straightforward.
| brotchie wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| Before a controlled high dose Psilocybin experience I "felt"
| my emotions: Anger, Fear, Frustration.
|
| Afterwards, I gained the ability to observe and "catch" my
| emotions in-flight. Not sure if it was neuroplasticity
| induced by the substance, or "you don't know what your brain
| can do until you know it".
|
| I liken it to previously having Ring 1 access to my thoughts,
| now I have Ring 0 access.
|
| Definitely persistent: DRAMATIC improvement in my happiness
| and wellbeing.
|
| YMMV
| briankelly wrote:
| Sounds like it could be mild dissociation/depersonalization.
| It's not typically considered a primary effect of psilocybin,
| but there is a small mention here on classical psychedelics:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative
| progmetaldev wrote:
| I was already predisposed to anxiety, but after using LSD
| quite a bit in my teens, my anxiety took over my waking life.
| During high anxiety and panic attacks, I often experience
| dissociation/depersonalization effects. I feel like I am
| disconnected from myself, and watching what is happening,
| like in a dream. The only thing I really connect with is the
| anxiety and fear. Over the years, through therapy and
| medication, this has become rarer.
| trallnag wrote:
| LSD is better, sorry :/
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Psilocybin and LSD are both psychedelics and 5-HT2A agonists.
| Even though the study uses psilocybin, the findings should
| apply to LSD too.
| xk_id wrote:
| Not really. Two ligands of the same receptor can have very
| different effects. There are 5ht2a agonists who don't even
| cause perceptual effects. Besides, LSD has activities at
| several other receptors as well, which contributes to its
| effect.
|
| Extrapolation of biological effect based on the receptor
| affinity of a ligand is a pretty crude hypotheses.
| mike_ivanov wrote:
| It's interesting that brain hypersynchronicity is a known source
| of epileptic seizures (among other things). This potentially
| could be a treatment for this specific problem.
|
| See e.g. * https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/
| article/pii/S089662731930964X * https://onlinelibrary.wiley
| .com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2010.02805.x
| greentxt wrote:
| Doubtful. Shrooms cause seizures.
| CacheRules wrote:
| Sources?
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| Anecdotal, but I've tripped with two people who showed
| seizure like symptoms that they never had before or since.
|
| Couldn't find any data at the time. Tried to get them to
| submit experience reports on erowid so that there would be
| some data out there, but they didn't want to put anything
| about it in writing.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| ok - an underweight 20 year old woman who did not eat
| well before a Rolling Stones concert and then used
| cocaine and alcohol, also had a seizure.
|
| goddam Mick Jagger !
| asveikau wrote:
| Something tells me seizures have multiple causes and if the
| drugs is one cause it's not a cause for everybody.
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