[HN Gopher] The Greatest Educational Life Hack: Learning Math Ah...
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       The Greatest Educational Life Hack: Learning Math Ahead of Time
        
       Author : harperlee
       Score  : 235 points
       Date   : 2024-07-17 08:46 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.justinmath.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.justinmath.com)
        
       | bell-cot wrote:
       | Within a limited range of academic disciplines, it's a great
       | hack. Outside of that, and situations where being a "math genius"
       | is social cred - not so much.
       | 
       | The article's pretty good on why institutionalized education
       | doesn't like students who are seriously ahead in learning math.
       | (Or any other subject.)
       | 
       | But it's pretty much silent on the self-discipline and self-study
       | skills (or parent-paid tutors) required, to seriously _learn_
       | math years ahead. And the former are probably far better
       | indicators of long-term success than the early math skills are.
        
       | trte9343r4 wrote:
       | > Learning math early guards you against numerous academic risks
       | and opens all kinds of doors to career opportunities.
       | 
       | Learning math, just so you can learn it again is quite pointless!
       | 
       | Much better hack is to skip academia completely, and go self
       | educated. No debt, no pointless extra classes, no risk of being
       | misaccused, no politics! You can even move to cheaper country,
       | with nice weather, to have better environment for studying!
        
         | xattt wrote:
         | You're oddly specific so I assume you're speaking to your
         | experience, but your case would be survivor bias.
         | 
         | Academia does pander to the masses, and it provides a path to
         | take a person off the street and turn them into a somewhat of a
         | knowledge expert in a range of disciplines.
         | 
         | You also hope that your nurse practitioner, physician or
         | surgeon didn't take a self-taught path.
        
           | beardedwizard wrote:
           | But a physician or surgeon needs a license to practice, so
           | it's not really a valid comparison.
           | 
           | However, I would love to have a doctor who was so passionate
           | about it they taught themselves before going to school.
        
             | skhunted wrote:
             | In the U.S. getting that license requires med school.
             | Almost no one is capable of learning advanced topics on
             | their own unless they have already been trained to learn an
             | advanced topic. It's interesting to see the number of
             | comments talking as if self learning is easy or doable for
             | any but a small percent of the population.
             | 
             | Self learning a topic is largely an ability of those who
             | have been taught advanced knowledge in some area.
        
               | lanstin wrote:
               | Also the young with relatively less to do. When I was
               | little, I started reading calculus books in about 4th
               | grade; I couldn't understand them much but with a few
               | years of trying I finally mostly got it at a conceptual
               | level (tho I didn't do the homeworks till I took it in
               | school; but by then it seemed to be the easiest subject
               | of all). I also read this cool book "Metamathematics" by
               | Kleene and then wrote (in MS Basic for the Ohio
               | Scientific C1P, using computed gosubs) a recursive
               | descent parser for numerical math equations, so I could
               | type in like "i ^ (1/i)" (I only had +,-,x,/ and ^ but
               | they all took all complex numbers; I might have had ln as
               | well? I could only implement functions where I could
               | figure out how to evaluate them, which excluded cos and
               | sin unless I used exp(theta i pi) = cos(theta pi) + i sin
               | (theta pi) and see what it was as a complex number. It
               | wasn't ground breaking, but it was self-taught (and I
               | could rewrite that program to this day pretty quickly).
               | 
               | But as a grown-up, it's more efficient to get help
               | learning hard things. And some things are harder than
               | others. I think you can learn calculus on your own, and
               | certainly computability theory, and point set topology,
               | but learning finite-group theory, which has a lot of
               | numeric details, or measure theory at a really solid
               | level, would be getting harder. Still doable if you have
               | the inner drive, but lot more efficient to take grad
               | level classes where you turn in homework. Also doing a
               | lot of homework does give you a sort of muscle memory "a
               | function is continuous iff the inverse image of open sets
               | are open".
               | 
               | I wouldn't tell everyone to become a professor, but I'd
               | certainly recommend US grad level classes as an extremely
               | efficient way to learn a lot.
        
               | skhunted wrote:
               | You are not anywhere near the average in learning
               | ability. Your experience is as an outlier.
        
           | trte9343r4 wrote:
           | Academia wasted 5 years of my life.
           | 
           | > provides a path to take a person off the street and turn
           | them into
           | 
           | That was true maybe 40 years ago. Today students are asking
           | for debt forgiveness! Academia ruins people financially for
           | decades!
           | 
           | > somewhat of a knowledge expert in a range of disciplines.
           | 
           | University graduates are pretty much useless in practical
           | disciplines. They need years of additional training to become
           | employable.
           | 
           | > You also hope that your nurse practitioner, physician or
           | surgeon didn't take a self-taught path
           | 
           | Medical professionals have several years of extra training in
           | hospitals. They have to "self study"!
        
             | lanstin wrote:
             | Residency isn't independent study, it's pretty tightly
             | directed by the hierarchy.
             | 
             | And I'd hire a math major with limited software experience
             | over a boot camp or self-taught person that only knows code
             | any day. In fact, I'd take a math major over most people
             | with MS in CompSci. They know how to learn very difficult
             | stuff, and didn't do it in an environment that is mostly
             | people wanting to be highly paid, but mostly people that
             | have a love of complicated but beautiful abstract
             | structures (hence less weird resume lying and so on; also,
             | tends to be a bit of a salary arbitrage opportunity).
             | (Hiring for experienced people is of course a different
             | problem.)
             | 
             | Of course, trying for a professor job in the US is very
             | likely to a difficult career path; I'm taking some math
             | classes just for fun and the professors are usually grading
             | our papers at insane hours, 3 am and then office hours at 9
             | am). I could not have done that much work and been a good
             | parent.
             | 
             | But academia is great training. One of the best project
             | managers I've worked with had a PhD in Anglo-Saxon english;
             | her dissertation was on masculinity in the court of the
             | Anglo-Saxon king (or something, I've not worked with her in
             | a long time); surprisingly relevant to trying to get the
             | mostly male dev teams to coordinate to finish projects when
             | she didin't have the feudal power of the technical
             | managers, just the soft power of the travelling minstral.
        
             | Suppafly wrote:
             | >Academia wasted 5 years of my life.
             | 
             | Nah, you wasted 5 years of your life.
        
       | glitchc wrote:
       | It definitely makes the first couple of years in university that
       | much easier, although limited to the science and engineering
       | disciplines.
        
       | CrazyStat wrote:
       | I'm going to push back on the advice to learn higher grade math
       | rather than competition math, as I feel the author is ignoring an
       | important skill that competition math helps develop. They allude
       | it in passing:
       | 
       | > A student can wrestle with a competition problem for long
       | periods of time, and all the teacher needs to do is give a hint
       | once in a while and check the student's work once they claim to
       | have solved the problem.
       | 
       | Wrestling with a problem for long periods of time is not just a
       | convenience for the teacher, it is a skill that will serve
       | students well for decades to come. Sitting with a problem that
       | you don't know how to solve for _hours_ , trying various
       | approaches, failing and failing and trying again, is a life skill
       | that learning calculus two years early won't teach you.
       | 
       | Many of the tactics used in competition problems are also useful
       | in general quantitative situations: identifying symmetries,
       | invariant quantities, properties that can only increase under
       | perturbations.
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | I did competition math in middle and high school, and the only
         | reason I was able to build the base needed to do decently in
         | the AMC, AIME, and CEMC was because I was introduced to various
         | concepts in math much earlier than when American or Canadian
         | curricula would introduce them.
         | 
         | Competition math becomes a zero sum game when you are competing
         | with students who have both built strong fundamentals AND then
         | concentrated on technique and problem solving.
         | 
         | You can't run if you can't walk.
         | 
         | > failing and failing and trying again, is a life skill that
         | learning calculus two years early won't teach you
         | 
         | But learning Calc for 2 years, and getting a 5 on the AP Calc
         | BC exam means you can take 2 additional courses in college or
         | graduate early.
         | 
         | > Many of the tactics used in competition problems are also
         | useful in general quantitative situations
         | 
         | Agreed. But at the end of the day, the kids getting into AIME
         | or USAMCO were already doing high school or even college level
         | math by 9th grade
        
           | CrazyStat wrote:
           | You don't have to "do decently" or worry about beating
           | students who are already doing college level math, though.
           | You can just do it for "fun" (and learning value). It may be
           | a zero sum game if the outcome you're concerned with is
           | beating other people, but that doesn't need to be the
           | objective.
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | I actually did learn how to run before I learned how to walk.
           | It caused my parents all sorts of stress. I guess, though,
           | there's room to quibble about where controlled falling
           | forward is really running.
           | 
           | Anyway, it seems like a shame that there's a problem solving
           | strategy beyond fundamentals for competitive math. What makes
           | the puzzles in the game different from the sort of typical
           | math somebody in STEM might do?
        
             | zozbot234 wrote:
             | Walking is just as much "controlled falling forward" as
             | running is, it's just slower.
        
         | qsort wrote:
         | Conflict of interest since I was very much into competition
         | math in high school, but I definitely agree that at the HS
         | level it's just about the best thing you can do. It develops
         | your mathematical maturity in ways that simply front-loading
         | calculus or linear algebra won't. A LOT of competition alumni
         | go on to become great academics or successful professionals.
         | 
         | And just by the way: competition math is definitely "higher
         | math" in a lot of cases. To be competitive at a decent level
         | you have to know stuff like "real" algebra (groups, fields,
         | etc., stuff like Burnside's lemma is pretty much table stakes),
         | vectors, barycentric coordinates and so on for geometry
         | problems, how to handle recursion for combinatorics, generating
         | functions etc. It's by no means only silly tricks.
        
         | zozbot234 wrote:
         | > Wrestling with a problem for long periods of time is not just
         | a convenience for the teacher, it is a skill that will serve
         | students well for decades to come.
         | 
         | And one of the best ways of developing that skill is...
         | learning higher-level math. This can also include 'competition
         | math' topics of course, but they should be approached as self-
         | contained subjects of their own, not just as a bundle of
         | disconnected "tricks" to be applied solely in a competition- or
         | puzzle-solving context.
        
           | CrazyStat wrote:
           | Depending on how the course is set up, maybe. Most math
           | courses are not set up to make students wrestle with problems
           | for extended periods of time, even through University level.
           | 
           | I took courses in topology and number theory in undergrad
           | that _were_ set up this way--the professor did almost no
           | lecturing; we were given a series of results to prove and
           | expected to wrestle with them ourselves (mostly alone as
           | homework). Once you thought you had a proof you presented it
           | to the class. But this is very atypical. Your typical
           | calculus or differential equations or linear algebra course
           | does not develop this skill.
        
         | conductr wrote:
         | Good advice but not good general advice. This will benefit some
         | but many more people will get frustrated and learn to dislike
         | math.
        
           | CrazyStat wrote:
           | This is not my experience. If they see the task as "solving
           | the problem is success and anything else is failure," like
           | they might be used to from most school math classes, sure. If
           | you set up the context properly my experience is that most
           | kids enjoy working on hard math puzzles.
        
             | conductr wrote:
             | Perhaps on basic math with younger kids but I expect this
             | will hit a wall at a certain level. Or, the audience of
             | kids doing this is already a skewed/biased sample of kids
             | that just love math (or it's parent driven)
        
           | colonwqbang wrote:
           | It seems that OP assumes you are already targeting a career
           | where maths will be useful to you. If so, I disagree.
           | Everything in school becomes much more fun when you
           | understand what you're doing.
        
         | insane_dreamer wrote:
         | > Sitting with a problem that you don't know how to solve for
         | __hours__
         | 
         | my child is very good at math, able to grasp advanced concepts
         | quickly, years ahead of his school curriculum, etc.
         | 
         | there is __0%__ chance I could get him to do the above for
         | __hours__
        
       | twic wrote:
       | Is there anything specific to mathematics about this?
        
         | mamcx wrote:
         | I think learning how read and write is a better fit.
         | 
         | Math, despite what some say, is not _that_ fundamental, but
         | reading and writing well is(and then helps to get math and
         | others).
        
         | criticas wrote:
         | No, I had the same strategy in computer science, foreign
         | language, and elective courses. CS? The first week of the
         | class, I'd read the entire language manual. I wouldn't
         | understand everything, but when a concept was explained in
         | detail, I had a context and baseline familiarity to orient
         | myself.
         | 
         | In foreign language and elective courses (such as history)
         | doing the reading before the lecture meant I could focus on
         | what the lecturer thought was important rather than absorbing
         | new information.
        
           | lanstin wrote:
           | I had a similar strategy as a youth. It definitely makes for
           | a more relaxed education (or gave me a buffer for when the
           | homework becomes really hard and my youthful irresponsibility
           | put me behind).
           | 
           | Now I've gone back to grad school (30 years later) and I also
           | have kids (older but not completely ignorable :) and a job
           | and a wife I am determined to keep happy, so I have to
           | optimize for time, so I'm mostly going into lectures blind
           | except for whatever foreshadowing "motivation" they've done,
           | so it's a constant stream of completely new stuff, but a lot
           | of "wow, that's cool" moments.
        
       | ziofill wrote:
       | > why stop learning one year ahead?
       | 
       | Ok, I get the principle but learning multiple years worth of
       | university math is starting to sound unrealistic? I understand
       | learning something in advance to have an easier time, but this is
       | almost the same as finishing a degree before starting it.
        
       | fnord77 wrote:
       | And there are places that have or are trying to ban algebra in
       | Jr. High School (e.g. SFUSD)
        
         | NotYourLawyer wrote:
         | Haven't you heard? Math, logic, reading and writing... it's all
         | white supremacist colonialism.
         | 
         | https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/09/the-folly-of-woke-mat...
        
           | wnolens wrote:
           | You've been downvoted, but the Seattle school system thinks
           | math is racist
           | 
           | https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/seattle-schools-
           | lea...
        
           | anthk wrote:
           | >"curricula emphasizing terms like Pythagorean theorem and pi
           | perpetuate a perception that mathematics was largely
           | developed by Greeks and other Europeans."
           | 
           | Damn Chinese, Arabic, Indian and Mesopotamian people, they
           | ruined everything with their Geometry and Algebra.
           | 
           | Oh, wait...
           | 
           | Dear Gutierrez, Science and Math doesn't give a crap about
           | race/ethnics and even less to crybabies as you. And as I say
           | this being a Spaniard, an odd blend between an Iberian, an
           | Atlantic/Mid-European (Goth) and Mediterranean (Who knows,
           | point a huge chunk between Tartesos and Rome) people.
           | 
           | In the Hispanic world (the actual one, not the joke invented
           | in the US) no one gives a shit about the race. It's all about
           | nurture against nature. Since the old times. (Uno no es de
           | donde nace, sino de donde pace) -Lit. one does not belong
           | from where he was born, but where he is lying - - -> Home is
           | where the heart is.
           | 
           | BTW. Latinx -> US creation, not Hispanic. We usually do
           | Science subjects in Spanish AND in English once we reach
           | University/College, thanks. No one it's hurt. Skills on
           | technical English are a must, period.
           | 
           | Black and Latino students here (inmigrants from overseas) do
           | it perfectly fine in Spain. First they study in Spanish, and
           | later in English which is much harder to achieve at the age
           | of 18-20. Stop the ethnic bullshit, please.
           | 
           | Our country invented Algebra, please. European Spaniards
           | learnt it fine from the Moors in _ARABIC_ more than five
           | centuries ago. Later they translated it into Latin and into
           | Castillian Spanish. Are the American children challenged, or
           | what?
           | 
           | You look like the sickos who put "White Only/Colored" labels
           | on everything.
           | 
           | The actual struggle for these children is not the race. It's
           | _money_ and parents being underpaid.
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | That makes it easier to learn ahead.
        
       | litver wrote:
       | The Even Superiorly Greatest and Lovely Educational Life Hack:
       | Learning Latin Ahead of Time
        
         | blowski wrote:
         | Quicquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
         | 
         | Learn Latin and you can fake your way through so many
         | situations.
        
         | euroderf wrote:
         | It made French grammar a breeze. (Mostly.)
        
       | rodolphoarruda wrote:
       | If you are native speaker of any language different from English,
       | the greatest educational life hack is to learn English at the
       | earliest time. It opens one's mind and allows access to content
       | and communication at a global level.
        
         | M4v3R wrote:
         | And if you're a non-English parent but speak English consider
         | talking to your child in English from the very beginning. There
         | are many different ways to approach this, one relatively simple
         | way is to have one parent speak their native language while the
         | other speaks English (called "one parent one language"). Even
         | if your pronunciation isn't perfect it will still yield very
         | good results.
         | 
         | Source: I'm a parent of a 3yo who now understands speaks both
         | English and Polish. Me and my wife are Polish and only I speak
         | English. Apart from speaking we also use English audio in all
         | TV content she watches and buy books that contains both English
         | and Polish text.
         | 
         | Edit: as pointed out below I should've clarified that this
         | applies when you live in a non-English country where your child
         | does not have any other way to learn English (over here you
         | can't really learn English in schools - not enough hours, plus
         | it starts way too late anyways).
        
           | et-al wrote:
           | I would clarify this is for parents residing in non-English
           | speaking countries. Because over here in the States folks are
           | doing the opposite: spending thousands a month to send their
           | children to language immersion schools to _not_ speak
           | English.
        
           | noisy_boy wrote:
           | > And if you're a non-English parent but speak English
           | consider talking to your child in English from the very
           | beginning.
           | 
           | If you are living in a place where people don't speak your
           | mother tongue but English is spoken everywhere and is the
           | main medium of education, don't do this. The kids will pick-
           | up English anyway because they will be exposed to it for 8
           | hours daily at school but if you don't speak with them in
           | your mother tongue, they will never pick it up. The older
           | they get, the harder it is. First hand experience.
        
             | rtkwe wrote:
             | They need English at home too, a lot happens in those early
             | years where there's no schooling and it'd be way better to
             | know English well going into school (what ever level that
             | happens to be at) too.
        
               | querez wrote:
               | My daycare has a lot of non-native people who do not
               | speak the local, native language with their child, at
               | all. Still, all children (age 3, they're usually in
               | daycare since age 1) speak the local language fluidly,
               | thanks to how much they they spend in daycare.
        
               | zarzavat wrote:
               | No, it's not necessary to speak X at home if you live in
               | an X speaking country, and it may even be harmful: often
               | children will not pick up language Y if only one parent
               | speaks it and the other parent speaks X.
               | 
               | Bilingual children whose parents don't speak the language
               | of the community at home may learn languages slightly
               | slower but they quickly catch up once they make friends
               | who only speak X.
        
           | lbrito wrote:
           | I would say the opposite; talk to your child only in your
           | native language. Kids will learn English by themselves in
           | school anyway, and if they don't learn your language from
           | you, they for sure won't learn it elsewhere.
           | 
           | Source: as a kid I was in that situation, at first my parent
           | spoke only in English with me and I started to forget
           | Portuguese. After my parents realized that they pivoted to
           | speaking Portuguese. I learned English fine at school and
           | never had problems with either languages. Now I'm a parent of
           | a 2yo and 1yo and am speaking Portuguese with both.
        
             | M4v3R wrote:
             | > Kids will learn English by themselves in school anyway
             | 
             | If you live in an English speaking country then sure. Over
             | here it's almost impossible to learn English in school, you
             | only get a few hours per week of English classes.
        
               | paganel wrote:
               | It depends on the kid and on the type of "immersion" (for
               | lack of a better word). I grew up in Romania in the '90s,
               | when we had 2 hours of English per week starting with the
               | 5th grade. I turned up fine when it comes to
               | speaking/writing/reading the language, of course that
               | I'll always carry an accent when speaking it but I don't
               | care.
               | 
               | Looking back at it, after 3 decades, what helped me learn
               | the language was that immersion I mentioned, i.e. I was
               | watching English TV programs (Cartoon Network, Eurosport,
               | MTV Europe) for a big part of the day, without that I
               | wouldn't have been able to pick it up so easily.
        
             | flyinglizard wrote:
             | My experience is that it's very easy to expose kids to
             | English in a non-English country - just let them consume
             | all their entertainment (Netflix, games, books) in English
             | right from the start. You don't need to do anything special
             | other than that.
        
           | rtkwe wrote:
           | Do be mindful of the kid though. One of my wife's coworkers
           | wanted to teach their kid multiple languages, I think the
           | final count was 4 total (they wanted both the parent's native
           | tongues, German which is where they were going to live after
           | their visas expired in the US and of course English), while
           | living in the US and it just made the kid confused and angry.
           | Granted that's way more than just doing two but it could
           | still back fire with the kid if it's too much.
        
         | qsort wrote:
         | As a non-native English speaker, this. Native English speakers
         | are reluctant to give this advice, but it's the lingua franca
         | of any field that matters. Not being able to communicate
         | effectively will definitely be a blocker.
        
           | smokel wrote:
           | Using the term "lingua franca" for English demonstrates,
           | twice, that this is only a temporary phenomenon.
        
             | qsort wrote:
             | Since Eve ate that apple pretty much everything is a
             | "temporary phenomenon".
        
             | ptmcc wrote:
             | Ok, yes, and? English is the dominant language now and for
             | the foreseeable future. Some day that may change but it
             | won't be overnight.
        
             | umanwizard wrote:
             | English will almost surely still be the dominant world
             | language for as long as any of us is alive.
        
         | gwervc wrote:
         | Heck no, I'd rather protect my (future) kids from a lot of
         | ideas spreading in the English speaking sphere until they
         | reached some given age. There's enough cultural, scientific and
         | entertainment content in French and Chinese to fill one's mind
         | until adolescence.
        
           | rcbdev wrote:
           | This.
           | 
           | Most money is spent in manipulating English media. Only
           | fractions for other languages. It makes a difference.
        
         | runiq wrote:
         | Another reason to learn English ASAP is because the orthography
         | is pants-on-head stupid. Your young self will not have a
         | reference system for just _how_ pants-on-head stupid it is and
         | happily accept it without giving it a second thought.
         | 
         | If you are learning English later in life, you _will_ struggle.
        
           | rcbdev wrote:
           | I'd argue some pants-on-head stupid declinations and
           | arbitrary genders for every noun is a much more compelling
           | reason to learn a language early than orthography.
           | 
           | English is probably one of the dead simplest languages of use
           | to learn later in life.
        
             | dotnet00 wrote:
             | It helps that since English is the lingua franca, people
             | tend to be kind of used to interacting with those who don't
             | speak it perfectly. Plus even those who don't functionally
             | speak it likely know enough words to convey things in a
             | pinch through either loan words or osmosis through media.
        
             | saagarjha wrote:
             | Nah, it sucks. Source: native speaker who also knows
             | Spanish and Hindi
        
           | euroderf wrote:
           | Agreed. In some ways English is aggressively stupid and
           | hostile to learners.
           | 
           | In purely intellectual terms, know thy enemy.
        
       | floatrock wrote:
       | I'm just confused by this article. It's basically "Learn a course
       | before you take the course so the course is easy."
       | 
       | Well, yeah, of course.
       | 
       | But this is basically the "draw the rest of the horse" meme.
       | 
       | What about any discussion of how to learn the material in
       | advance, why self-guided learning is better than course-driven
       | learning, or just how to prioritize advanced learning with
       | everything else going on in your life.
       | 
       | Why is this on the front page today?
        
         | kreetx wrote:
         | > Well, yeah, of course.
         | 
         | It tries to substantiate the ahead-of-time learning with how it
         | will benefit you on a larger scale than a course or even a
         | degree.
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | Those details are second order. What's important is the
         | "flipped classroom". Learning isn't done in neat little buckets
         | of time, checking off skills from a punch list. Learning works
         | when it repeats and spirals over years.
         | 
         | This is why hobbiests and apprentices are higher skilled
         | professionals than people with mere educational certifications.
        
       | TuringNYC wrote:
       | If you go to any of the wealthy or upper-middle-class suburbs,
       | especially those with large immigrant populations, you'll see
       | half the students secretly doing this, whether it is via Kumon or
       | RSM or something else.
       | 
       | In many ways it skews the ratings of the schools because they can
       | be lazy and not teach as well...but still show great school
       | average scores, since so many kids are already enriching
       | externally. Before you know, the school is just a motion and the
       | real learning is at home. I suppose it is idealistic to think
       | teachers "should" teach well, of course, since in reality not all
       | do.
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | It's not secret. It's out in the open and people who don't do
         | it are looked at with scorn or dismissal.
        
           | TuringNYC wrote:
           | >> It's not secret. It's out in the open and people who don't
           | do it are looked at with scorn or dismissal.
           | 
           | Amongst the participants, it isnt secret -- you see all the
           | other participants at the center weekly, or more. I think a
           | lot of it is a class thing that runs side by side.
           | 
           | For the outsiders, it is a secret. I was part of a group in
           | K12 that didnt even always have consistent nutrition. The
           | Kumon kids were a strange breed -- folks who had money to
           | "splurge" on "private" education.
        
             | kjkjadksj wrote:
             | All the kids I knew in those programs hated it. Last thing
             | they wanted to do after school was more school. They wanted
             | to play games or sports but their parents decided being an
             | A student in elementary school is better than any potential
             | social or physical development.
        
               | DowagerDave wrote:
               | Western society loves to make every kid "special" either
               | in their challenges or abilities. We seem to forget that
               | every kid IS special, in the sense they are diverse,
               | inconsistent, immature and range dramatically across
               | different types of skills & abilities. If you're a
               | middle-class or higher new parent in the West, let me
               | give you my parenting book for free: chill the fuck out.
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | I put my kids through school (they're both out of college
           | now) in an upper class Chicagoland suburb and this was
           | definitely not the case.
           | 
           | I'd be a little careful with venue effects on a discussion
           | like this: this is a group of people that have, as a cohort,
           | a particular fixation on academic and especially mathematics
           | status signals.
        
         | gjvc wrote:
         | What is the preferred choice between Kumon and Russian School
         | of Mathematics?
        
           | dh2022 wrote:
           | I sent my son to both of them and I prefer RSM by far. Kumon
           | to me was rote learning - lots of very similar problems. My
           | son did not last even the first semester.
           | 
           | My son then attended RSM from first grade. RSM instruction
           | started from problems like "there are 3 birds on a branch. 1
           | bird leaves. how many birds are now on the branch" and
           | progressed onward. By grade 7 he is learning logarithms and,
           | at a very basic introductory level, abstract concepts such as
           | function
           | 
           | (by function I mean the real definition of a function, not
           | the easy f(x) = 2 x + 1 -
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics))
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | > any of the wealthy or upper-middle-class suburbs
         | 
         | Working class too if you're Asian American.
         | 
         | Asian American kids in SF public schools and the closest
         | suburbs (eg. Daly City, SSF) skewed working class but the
         | parents would also push their kids to attend Kumon or cram
         | schools.
         | 
         | Same story in working class Asian neighborhoods of SoCal and
         | Boston like SGV or Quincy+Malden respectively.
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | True for college math too. I took calculus for the first time
         | in my life in college. Half the class had it in high school,
         | half of those students took AP calc. Exams were so brutal for
         | those of us taking it for the first time especially. Nothing
         | could have prepared me for them. The lecturer would schedule a
         | two hour block outside of class and the exam was 7 very
         | challenging questions. Most of us would not finish before the 2
         | hours were up. Class averages were in the 50% range. I took my
         | C and moved on with my life never needing to do calculus by
         | hand ever again.
        
           | rawgabbit wrote:
           | My son did "Business Calculus" at a large state university. I
           | have a masters in science and had taken many quite difficult
           | math courses in my day. I looked at what he was asked to do
           | and saw his exam papers. Needless to say "Business Calculus"
           | had little to do with business and a lot to do with making
           | math as difficult as possible. The class average was a C and
           | I believe many of the students had taken AP calculus in high
           | school. It was one of the courses whose purpose was not to
           | teach but to prop up the university-industrial complex.
           | 
           | EDIT. Below is an example (not from his instructor but the
           | same material). Remember this is for "business calculus". It
           | just seems like silly math tricks to me. https://people.tamu.
           | edu/~jdkim/math142fall2019/math142week11...
        
             | Acrobatic_Road wrote:
             | just glancing over this pdf it doesn't seem so bad. The
             | first couple of problems are just integrations with some
             | very obvious u-substitutions.
        
         | conductr wrote:
         | Education is a part of culture. The American culture is one
         | that doesn't actually value education. It's one of shortcuts
         | and minimum effort and coasting by checking the boxes along the
         | way to a decent enough paying job, or so we hope. We place
         | value on our social lives much more so. Eg. popularity, sports,
         | fraternities, "the college experience", etc
        
           | DowagerDave wrote:
           | Sure there are cases as you describe, but painting the entire
           | American culture wrt education with your very wide brush is
           | unfair and incorrect. It's also soundly refuted by the global
           | demand for American education, and historic performance.
        
         | sharadov wrote:
         | I send my kids to Singapore Math, because the math curriculum
         | and how they teach math is lacking - it's superficial, they
         | gloss over the concepts. In schools my kids look at a worked
         | example, then solve problems that very closely follow that
         | example, repeating all the same steps with different numbers.
         | In Singapore math, students must think through the concepts and
         | apply them in new ways from the very start.
        
         | hintymad wrote:
         | > via Kumon or RSM or something else.
         | 
         | My kids use Kumon and RSM too, only because what their school
         | covers are pathetic. The content may be okay, but the teachers
         | certainly didn't give good enough homework to help the kids
         | deeply understand the math concepts and to get valuable
         | problem-solving skills.
         | 
         | That we rely on Kumon and RSM says a lot the abysmal state of
         | the education quality in the US. Case in point, I would not
         | need Kumon or RSM at all when I grew up, as my school covered
         | way more and way deeper math. Note the US is still the best
         | country for the top students and those who struggled with
         | academics. It sucks only for the majority -- the students in
         | the middle like me. They could've got trained hard, yet the
         | school squandered the opportunity.
        
       | markus_zhang wrote:
       | My father (a Mathematician) used to teach Math to me early. But
       | somehow I was not motivated to learn Math myself so every year I
       | got a very good mid-term grade but terrible final grade. He also
       | taught competitive Math to me (the Olympics) but to be frank I
       | was totally uninterested.
       | 
       | This definitely created a lot of tension along the years. He just
       | couldn't understand why people don't like learning Math, and I
       | just couldn't understand why I couldn't watch TV every night.
       | LOL.
        
         | lanstin wrote:
         | You could be my kid writing, but I didn't push too hard; I am
         | still disappointed they didn't take up more math, but each
         | person has their own life to live. They understood negative
         | numbers and square roots in early elementary school and
         | optimized later education to be least effort for the grade, not
         | inner inspired learning for the joy of learning.
        
           | markus_zhang wrote:
           | Yeah different people have different roads. And if someone
           | just doesn't have the inner motivation to crack Math
           | problems, then feeding Math to them, especially in a
           | traditional textbook-homework way, is just going to produce
           | resentment.
           | 
           | My father actually wanted to teach me programming too. But
           | similar to teaching Math, he wanted me to go competitive
           | programming, which I absolutely hated and still hate. If he
           | tried teaching me game programming then it was going to be a
           | completely different story. I eventually taught myself
           | programming decades later. My first language was C++ and my
           | first project was a 2d game engine.
           | 
           | IMO, all those teaching he tried to feed me, not only did not
           | increase my motivation or learning techniques, but decreased
           | them. Throughout my childhood (starting from maybe 9), I
           | absolutely hated summer and winter vacations. While my
           | friends were enjoying, I had to go through TONs of extra-
           | curriculums. I used to practice piano 4+ hours a day (as long
           | as I don't have school), and some other hours for extra
           | homeworks. I absolutely hated that, to the point that I hated
           | playing piano and completely dropped it after actually
           | achieving a lot. My father simply doesn't understand why
           | would a normal human-being hate piano, music and Math, when
           | he couldn't even get them when he was young. I didn't bother
           | to explain.
           | 
           | You were probably not that tough to your children though, so
           | I guess they fared much better.
        
       | johngossman wrote:
       | This is basically an ad
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | And an attack on the competitors -- opposing competition math
         | because other vendors got their first and it has a narrower
         | addressable market.
        
       | WesleyLivesay wrote:
       | A bit of a sensational title, I would say that Learning to Read
       | as early as possible, then reading well above age level, would be
       | a greater "Educational Life Hack".
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | They're both outcomes of the same action - parental interest in
         | education.
         | 
         | Success in early learning is heavily correlated to how invested
         | your parents are in their kid's education.
         | 
         | It's not a money thing (as plenty of us 1.5 gen Asian American
         | kids can attest to)
        
         | supertofu wrote:
         | Most unfortunately, not every child will even have access to
         | this unarguably beneficial life hack.
         | 
         | I learned to read early because my immigrant mom read to me _in
         | her non-native language_ every single night, and that 's
         | because she came from a culture that lauds education.
         | 
         | I wish every child was lucky enough to have a parent like this,
         | but so many kids only get their first exposure to education in
         | public school.
        
         | bee_rider wrote:
         | Learning to read as an educational lifehack suffers from a
         | couple issues with the target audience.
        
         | CrazyStat wrote:
         | The author works at a math education company, so the focus on
         | math is understandable.
        
         | yonaguska wrote:
         | My superpower is that I learned to read at a very young age. It
         | allowed me to find some modicum of success despite a lifetime
         | of undiagnosed adhd. If I hadn't learned how to read early, and
         | thus learned how to read fast- I doubt I would have ever gotten
         | to a point of enjoying reading.
        
         | dh2022 wrote:
         | But doesn't this reading ability plateau quickly? My 13 years
         | old son reads pretty much as well as I do. I am working with
         | him on SAT tests and there are some things he can improve. But
         | not that much.
         | 
         | As opposed to Math - which keeps going and going well beyond
         | college....
        
           | saagarjha wrote:
           | This is generally because it stops being "reading" and starts
           | becoming "literary analysis" which goes _very_ deep.
        
       | grose wrote:
       | My 4th and 5th grade teachers tricked us into learning algebra by
       | calling it "enigmas" and treating it like a fun puzzle instead of
       | a math problem. It definitely worked on me, I was quite shocked
       | when middle school math was just those puzzles under a different
       | name. Made those classes quite easy though.
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | This is what DragonBox does too.
         | 
         | Kids hate math because teachers and textbook writers hate math,
         | who put no fun into it.
        
           | ghostpepper wrote:
           | It looks like Dragonbox was bought in 2019. It's now called
           | Kahoot! Algebra by Dragonbox and requires accepting a bunch
           | of tracking permissions on the App Store, plus a
           | subscription.
           | 
           | Anyone know an alternative?
        
         | zozbot234 wrote:
         | This is done as standard practice in many countries outside the
         | English-speaking world - complex "word problems" are used to
         | gradually introduce algebraic-style reasoning (often involving
         | multiple "steps" as a matter of course) in the earliest grades
         | as part of the study of both arithmetic and what English-
         | speaking schools call "pre-algebra". Teaching proper algebra
         | after that once the students have the proper level of
         | mathematical maturity becomes almost seamless.
        
           | 1970-01-01 wrote:
           | The way math is taught in the USA is downright disastrous.
           | It's been through several revisions over the last 30 years
           | and still isn't showing average students reaching anywhere
           | near these levels.
        
       | niemandhier wrote:
       | This is a hack to create people wha are successful in the
       | education system, I wonder if it is the right approach to create
       | educated people.
       | 
       | I work in science and often work with highly skilled people from
       | China and India. Theses people are much better in applied math
       | than I ever was, but somehow my erratic highly derivative style
       | of problem solving is at least as good at getting the job done
       | and I am much better in thinking out of the box than most of
       | them.
        
       | ChicagoBoy11 wrote:
       | I work at a private school and will sadly tell you that the
       | author's points are actually pretty severely understated when it
       | comes to the incentives of schools regarding this phenomenon.
       | Differentiation is a word that gets thrown around as some
       | tremendous necessity for schools to implement, yet in the case of
       | math, where one could fairly easily (compared to other subjects)
       | confidently assess the attainment of prerequisites, gauge student
       | progress, comfort, etc., we comically either bound students who
       | have clearly mastered materials OR happily move them along the
       | math curve in which the deficiencies in mastery build on each
       | other to eventually lead to a child who truly has a strong
       | distaste for math.
       | 
       | More even than pre-teaching, I would encourage any parent to very
       | actively be involved to ensuring that their child maintains a
       | reasonable comfort with math throughout their study, and to the
       | extent possible, pitch in to help those gaps beyond "passing" or
       | doing "ok" in class, but to earnestly try to see if their child
       | is comfortable. The reality is schools will very frequently PASS
       | your child and given them fine enough grades, but I would argue
       | that it is oftentimes almost orthogonal to how comfortable your
       | child genuinely feels with what they've learned.
        
       | criticas wrote:
       | My wife was a great example of this. She was an undergraduate
       | math major, then went on to get her master's and PhD in
       | engineering. The first year of the master's was largely remedial
       | engineering courses - statics and dynamics, thermodynamics,
       | controls, simple electrical circuits, etc.
       | 
       | I asked if she found them difficult. She quipped, "If you already
       | know the math, it's just nomenclature."
        
         | supertofu wrote:
         | Ahh, the very definition of isomorphism :)
        
         | Syzygies wrote:
         | As a sophomore, I took the "barrier" physics intro for my
         | distribution requirement. Sunday night before our first Monday
         | morning exam, I found my professor in a phone book (1970's) and
         | phoned to ask for an extension, explaining that I hadn't
         | started studying. Denied.
         | 
         | That test was just multivariate calculus I'd already aced, with
         | funny names. I got one of the top scores in the class. So I
         | decided to study an extra hour next time, just to be
         | responsible. Oops! I flunked a test that was differential
         | equations with funny names.
         | 
         | I didn't really learn ODE's till Columbia assigned me to teach
         | them as an assistant professor.
        
         | trueismywork wrote:
         | Love this quote.
        
       | supertofu wrote:
       | I was a late bloomer in almost every arena of my life. Developing
       | social skills, having relationships, developing an identity
       | independent of my family, etc. I'm also a late bloomer to
       | mathematics.
       | 
       | I'm in my 30s and getting a bachelor's degree in Math now after a
       | lifetime of math-phobia. Math was my worst subject because it
       | never came easily or naturally to me, and so I assumed I must
       | have been innately incapable of it. I didn't take a single math
       | class during my first bachelor's degree.
       | 
       | I sure wish I could have learned math properly earlier in life,
       | but my point with this comment is that _it is never too late to
       | learn math_.
       | 
       | Learning mathematics "late" over the last couple of years has
       | enriched my life in so many ways. Learning to write proofs has
       | brought a sense of organization and calm to many other areas of
       | my life. Complex problems and challenges in life feel so much
       | more approachable, because I am much more skilled now in breaking
       | down tasks to manageable components. I can see now how
       | mathematics has influenced programming languages and computer
       | science, and every time I can identify the mathematical
       | underpinning of some program I use or write, I feel like I am
       | peering into the heart of the universe.
       | 
       | Learning math early is a great hack, but so is learning math late
       | :)
        
         | chikenf00t wrote:
         | How were you able to learn math later in life? I'm terrible at
         | math and I know it causes my work to suffer.
        
           | 2snakes wrote:
           | I am planning to use Math Academy after my Master's degree. I
           | did a beta and it was awesome, just wish I had taken more
           | notes.
        
           | moralestapia wrote:
           | My two cents.
           | 
           | Math it's _way_ easier than you think it is, it greatly
           | depends on how you approach it. I really like the style of
           | Robert Ghrist videos on YouTube.
           | 
           | A great tutor/video goes a long way. I wish I could share
           | some resources but am a bit outdated on that.
           | 
           | The overall idea is that some people can explain math
           | concepts in a very clear and straightforward way, while some
           | others will write up a bunch of symbols and let you figure
           | them out. Avoid the latter. As a note, those are usually the
           | lowest performers in academia, lol.
        
             | RealityVoid wrote:
             | You learn math best by doing math. Sure, good explanations
             | help, but sometimes dry rigorous ones are preferable since
             | it asks you to grapple with the subject.
        
               | moralestapia wrote:
               | >sometimes dry rigorous ones are preferable
               | 
               | My experience with the comments in this thread, the
               | overwhelming majority of people I know IRL and the
               | widespread sentiment that "Math is hard" does not seem to
               | reflect that.
        
           | grepLeigh wrote:
           | Similar to the OP, I had a lot of anxiety around math and
           | academic performance. I dropped out of college at 18 and the
           | highest math class I took was in high school (pre-calc),
           | which I almost failed.
           | 
           | At age 33, I enrolled in community college and took Calc
           | I-III, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations. The
           | community college hosts weekly "math jams" and offers free
           | 1:1 tutoring.
           | 
           | I'm currently taking a Discrete Math and Probability class at
           | UC Berkeley for fun this summer (CS70), which would have
           | seemed absurd just a few years ago. The community college
           | system in California is extraordinary; I'm glad I got to
           | experience it first-hand.
        
             | Loughla wrote:
             | Describe the math jams, if you would please. Is this just
             | open tutoring labs for all areas of math? Or is it
             | something different?
        
           | nextos wrote:
           | You can start simple. Read _Basic Mathematics_ by Serge Lang
           | and do all exercises. Solutions are included. That book
           | basically covers all mathematics up to junior high in a
           | rigorous but approachable fashion. Serge Lang was a great
           | mathematician. Then you move to logic, calculus, linear
           | algebra and probability. Afterwards, focus on more specific
           | areas that interest you.
           | 
           | Springer Undergraduate Texts in Mathematics and Dover have
           | lots of elegant and concise textbooks that can help you. At
           | the beginning, the key is to move slowly and build some solid
           | foundations.
        
         | chongli wrote:
         | I am rooting for you! I just completed a Bachelor's of
         | Mathematics in December before my 40th birthday this year. I am
         | so glad to hear about the effects you're feeling as you learn.
         | I too experienced a deep sense of calm and confidence as I
         | learned to write proofs. Surprisingly, none of my younger
         | classmates agreed! So I chalked it up to being older and more
         | mature in general.
         | 
         | Now I feel vastly more mature than I did before I began my
         | degree! I have that same belief and confidence that no problem
         | I face is unsolvable. I've also discovered a much deeper love
         | of learning itself, and a desire to continue studying long into
         | the future, and that interest includes but is not limited to
         | mathematics! I want to have many different hobbies and learn
         | all about how the world works.
        
         | kensai wrote:
         | Thank you for this post. I am in my 40s and have a similar
         | approach.
        
         | bitwize wrote:
         | Math anxiety... it's a real thing. My wife has a brilliant
         | level of intelligence but refused to approach the higher levels
         | of math. Not out of lack of capability... just fear. She says
         | things like "Math should have numbers in it, but no letters.
         | I'm not about the kind of math with letters in it." And for
         | example, she never completed her psych degree because a
         | statistics course was required to complete it and she didn't
         | want to take it.
         | 
         | It's like a fat person going to the gym for the first time. But
         | once they start getting into the habit of working out and
         | seeing the improvements, the anxiety goes away.
         | 
         | Anyway, congrats on overcoming your math anxiety.
        
       | ailtjalwiejr wrote:
       | I got good at calculus when I started doing differential
       | equations. I got good at differential equations when I started
       | doing modeling and control theory. In general, you don't get good
       | at a subject when you learn it in class; you get good at a
       | subject when you work on the stuff one level beyond it. So yeah,
       | if you want to be good at the class you're in, start studying for
       | the class after it. This is definitely an effective method.
       | 
       | But then again, that's really difficult to actually do. For
       | anyone who grew up surrounded by resources, that might sound like
       | a really easy and obvious suggestion. "Just listen to the tutors
       | your parents bought for you." But for the students who can't
       | afford books for this year's classes, you might as well be
       | telling them to "just grow wings and fly, it's not hard".
       | 
       | Me personally, I knew plenty of people who did this, learned a
       | year ahead so they looked extra good in class. Most of them had
       | parents who had PhDs, paid their rent for them, and explained
       | what problems they were going to face far ahead of time. For the
       | students who leave class and go to work to pay their own rent and
       | then go back to campus to study and do research at night, this is
       | not very helpful advice. Like so many educational "one simple
       | tricks", the unspoken prerequisite is "just be born rich".
        
       | hintymad wrote:
       | > Higher Math, Not Competition Math
       | 
       | This is very true, especially now. So many families, at least in
       | the competitive places like the Bay Area, push their kids to
       | spend enormous amount of time on AMC, AIME, and etc. Other than
       | viewing competition math as a way for their kids to get into
       | elite universities, they often think that doing competition math
       | as a way to be really good at math and they can cite many
       | examples kids who are good at competition math also would have a
       | bright career. Unfortunately, they got it backwards: kids who are
       | naturally good at maths will like do well in competition math
       | (think about Schulz or Terence Tao), but really not the other way
       | around. For people like me, who have limited talent on maths,
       | focusing on learning higher math and the associated essential
       | problem-solving techniques will have a much higher return on
       | investment.
        
       | fumeux_fume wrote:
       | Slightly galling that people write this kind of drivel without
       | examining any of the shaky premises it's logic relies on. Yes, in
       | a perfect world, we can all learn our course material in advance
       | and skate through our in-class education. More practical advice
       | would be to build strong study habits and networking skills.
       | Being able to get your work done with more time for
       | editing/revisions and having access to other perspectives on the
       | course work would have definitely improved the quality of my
       | education. Building those habits and community take time and
       | energy. I guess no simple hack there.
        
       | falcor84 wrote:
       | Reading between the lines in TFA, it seems that they're implying
       | that university learning is really bad, and pretty much any other
       | way you can use to learn the subject matter before getting to
       | university will serve you better. There's a long discussion to be
       | had there, but for the sake of argument, let's take that as a
       | given.
       | 
       | Assuming that is true, but that there is still a significant
       | benefit to attending a good university - in terms of connections,
       | social experiences, status etc. - should we maybe strive to
       | decouple the university experience from course enrolment - e.g.
       | make it easier for people who have pre-learned the content, to
       | prove their competency and essentially jump directly into a free-
       | form experience similar to grad school?
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | While the thesis based freeform option is liable to lead to
         | practically learned mastery, it is perilous. What you might set
         | out to learn and to do might not pan put. You might have to
         | revise your ideas, redesign your studies. You may very well
         | take a lot longer than 4 years through no fault of your own.
         | 
         | It can also feel incredibly demoralizing to be toiling in those
         | trenches. Feeling like you are qualified for the job but you
         | just need to get these damn experiments to finally work so you
         | can actually leave and no longer be impoverished.
        
       | Fatalist_ma wrote:
       | Learning the whole course ahead of time sounds easier said than
       | done. But I definitely recommend pre-learning the next chapter in
       | the course instead of relying on the teacher's explanation.
       | Personally, I could never understand a relatively complicated
       | math concept just by listening to the teacher. I usually need to
       | think about it, draw things, read several different explanations,
       | etc, to really get it. But when I was already familiar with the
       | topic, then I could benefit from another repetition and ask
       | questions if there were some complicated aspects.
        
       | advael wrote:
       | I agree with this tip. Works great for anyone who can autodidact,
       | and if you're good at finding and vetting resources,
       | autodidacting got easier with the internet, and has only gotten a
       | little harder with the proliferation of nonsense on the internet
       | for topics that aren't hot in business or politically charged
       | 
       | Also, this really shows how the incentives in "education" are
       | deeply misaligned with the way we talk about it. At least in the
       | US, the point of education seems to be mostly gating outcomes and
       | sorting people. Learning is incidental and game theory suggests
       | it's better to never take a class that's truly new material for
       | you, because getting a bad grade can harm you, but learning
       | something new isn't captured at all
        
       | fhub wrote:
       | Greatest Educational Life Hack is getting your children to love
       | going to school.
        
         | hnthrowaway0328 wrote:
         | This.
        
         | javier123454321 wrote:
         | Love learning, not necessarily love going to school.
        
         | euroderf wrote:
         | I always refer to my 4yo's daycare as "going to school". I want
         | him to perceive continuity. Fingers crossed.
        
       | secstate wrote:
       | EDIT: Nevermind, this whole thing is just an add for a tutoring
       | service :(
       | 
       | So, here's my hot take (which probably isn't terribly original):
       | Compulsory school math should end before algebra, and the rest of
       | the curriculum should be taught the same way (or better) to how
       | we teach art or music.
       | 
       | If you need advanced math for your career, teach advanced algebra
       | or calculus as needed. At the very least this will force post-
       | secondary schools to be honest about how prepared students are
       | leaving secondary school. Right now, it "those people's fault"
       | for how poorly prepared for advanced math most kids are.
       | 
       | Basic math literacy is incredibly important. But being able to
       | solve quadratics or discover geometric proofs is colossally
       | unimportant to 98% of humanity and it's importance can usually be
       | determined based on personal interest in a career. Let's be
       | honest with ourselves that most people well and truly will never
       | need advanced math. Exposed kids to it as a fun game or art form,
       | not a tool that they will never use.
       | 
       | Should learning to use a belt sander be an educational
       | requirement to move from 9th to 10th grade? No, no it should not.
        
         | j2kun wrote:
         | Your argument applies to everything. Shakespeare? Biology?
         | Chemistry? Physics? World history? Most careers don't need
         | these either. If you limit an education to what people need for
         | their careers, we should be have barista and tax filing
         | classes.
         | 
         | The only class I'd legitimately believe we should teach is
         | labor organizing/union participation, since every career
         | involves labor.
        
           | euroderf wrote:
           | Some kind of media awareness belongs in here too. Everyone
           | 21st-century is drowning in information. Gotta sort it out.
           | Some kind of DIY life ring.
        
       | 1970-01-01 wrote:
       | The greatest failure of our time is that there isn't a viral, ad-
       | free website or app for children and teens to just go and learn
       | math on their own. Everything worthwhile requires a credit card,
       | user account, and monthly subscription. Children don't have
       | credit cards, email addresses, and access to the latest iOS
       | device. They do have time and at minimum sporadic Internet
       | access. If we managed to create Wikipedia, we can manage to
       | create a similar site for enjoying and learning math.
        
         | zozbot234 wrote:
         | Khan Academy is close enough to what you describe, and it
         | covers K-12 plus some college-level courses. If anything, it's
         | a lot easier to achieve this wrt. math than many other school
         | subjects.
        
           | Suppafly wrote:
           | This. Between Khan Academy and youtube, there isn't really
           | anything stopping a motivated person from learning. Hell you
           | can get graduate level instruction from some of the best
           | university instructors around by using some of the open
           | courseware materials. Granted some people need the rigor of
           | having an instructor assign and grade assignments regularly,
           | but there are no real barriers to the information itself.
        
         | jzebedee wrote:
         | Isn't this the whole premise of Khan Academy?
        
           | 1970-01-01 wrote:
           | Khan Academy is limited to learning by boring examples (IMHO)
           | in lecture format and does not _virally_ engage a learner
           | with play. It 's analogous to a free virtual classroom.
        
         | spencerchubb wrote:
         | plenty of learning resources exist. kids just don't have the
         | motivation or focus. i'm not saying the kids are at fault
         | though. there are a thousand games/apps that are like nicotine.
        
         | mensetmanusman wrote:
         | Start a nonprofit to implement this. What you are suggesting is
         | a lot of work, and it requires an institution to complete and
         | maintain.
        
         | JonChesterfield wrote:
         | It's here https://us.metamath.org/
        
       | dmazin wrote:
       | I did this: I studied pure math in uni because "it could be used
       | for anything."
       | 
       | I hugely regret this.
       | 
       | 1. I didn't find it that interesting, and so I don't feel like I
       | got much out of it. 2. I found later that I learn math much
       | better when I can "hang" the ideas off practical examples. For
       | example, I learned math for the sake of understanding deep
       | learning far better than I ever understood math before.
       | 
       | Ultimately, I think it's far more important to study something
       | that interests you, and to learn the tools you need as you go.
        
       | factorymoo wrote:
       | I went to the most prestigious high school in France. The top 2
       | students in my maths class shared one thing in common: they would
       | study the curriculum the summer before.
       | 
       | I did it one summer, and while I was nowhere near as good as them
       | - something magical happened: even though I hadn't understood all
       | the concepts, my ability to understand the concepts during the
       | class went way up. It was easier to follow what the teacher was
       | saying since no concept was totally new to my mind.
        
         | raybb wrote:
         | Did that make it feel more or less boring?
        
           | factorymoo wrote:
           | To me less boring. I used to struggle to understand new
           | concepts as they were presented. That year though, I was able
           | to follow what the teacher was saying "live", ask interesting
           | questions to deepen my knowledge.
        
           | exe34 wrote:
           | It was like that with physics for me in high school. At ages
           | 11-13 we learnt a bunch of stuff, which nobody except I paid
           | any attention to, and then we had to do it all again, exactly
           | the same stuff, for ages 14-15 to prepare for GCSEs. I was
           | horribly bored, but at one point I was lucky enough that the
           | teacher just gave me A-level and then early uni stuff to
           | figure out, so that kept me busy. then first year of uni was
           | horribly boring again, which led me to be over-confident, and
           | didn't do much work in second year, but thankfully I managed
           | to pick up the slack in 3rd and 4th year of uni.
        
           | djeastm wrote:
           | It'd be what you made it. I went back for a CS degree long
           | after having coded for years and there were certainly things
           | I would have had to sit around and wait for others to catch
           | up on if I let it. But instead I always pushed myself to
           | build much more sophisticated versions of the basic things we
           | were learning and I also tutored, which is where it really
           | becomes not boring, because you get to see how other people
           | learn things in different ways, which broadens your own
           | perspective, as well.
           | 
           | So basically I'm just trying to say it's up to you to make
           | things not boring
        
         | petesergeant wrote:
         | I did a Software Engineering Maths module at Oxford, having
         | barely touched maths in several years. Working through the
         | curriculum first was incredibly useful, because in the lectures
         | everything just melded together, and my brain was already
         | primed
        
         | golergka wrote:
         | I went to math high school which was the most prestigious one
         | in Russia at the time. Most of math class graduates would go to
         | study math at the uni, and for the first year would be far
         | ahead of their coursemates -- but then would be hit by the
         | sudden need to actually study the material and prepare for the
         | exams like a wall of bricks.
        
       | alabhyajindal wrote:
       | I am currently learning maths independently. I'm using the book,
       | Maths: A Student's Survival Guide by Jenny Olive. I'm towards the
       | end of the first chapter and feeling confident with basic algebra
       | now! I picked it up after seeing it recommended here.[1]
       | 
       | The book explains a topic concisely and then gives exercises.
       | Importantly, the exercises don't assume previous knowledge and
       | you can solve them by applying previous explanations. Highly
       | recommended!
       | 
       | 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39050972
        
       | Joel_Mckay wrote:
       | The bimodal distribution of student entrance performance
       | correlating to stratified fiscal castes has been observed for
       | sometime:
       | 
       | "Outliers: The Story of Success" ( Malcolm Gladwell, 2011 )
       | 
       | i.e. the curriculum lesson plans naturally evolve to exclude
       | individuals that don't need introductory lessons, because they
       | are on average 3 years ahead of their peers by the time they
       | enter undergraduate programs.
       | 
       | The kids that need to "catch-up" in introductory Math/English
       | material are no longer failed/held-back a year in some
       | municipalities, but rather given a remedial curriculum over the
       | summer. If those kids parents can afford to put them through an
       | early tutorial program, than excluding the "poor kids" from a
       | seat at the more lucrative faculties is rather guaranteed.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E
       | 
       | Mind you explaining to privileged kids why they _get_to_ attend
       | additional instruction can be difficult. As social media
       | normalizes lack of impulse control, and rewards group-think
       | biases. Our little ingrates think they can con/hack their way
       | through life, as some fool on the web is telling them to take the
       | easy path.
       | 
       | Some university kids that rely on student visa programs to access
       | the US immigration process, will get desperate and try to
       | outright cheat their way through a Bachelor of science degree.
       | The real scandal is some folks get 50% of the final problems from
       | $18.74 USD gray market course manuals out of HK, as many
       | institutions must structure their exams this way for credit-
       | transfer compatibility. The myth of natural talent deteriorates
       | further with some fraternities also gaming the system to out-
       | compete the rest of the student body when possible. Indeed, some
       | people do hack/cheat their way to a better life using underhanded
       | tactics, and are rarely held accountable. Some places are even
       | removing the barrier where one needs to be fluent in English.
       | 
       | You are probably still thinking this can't be right, and seats
       | for becoming a physician/pharmacist/lawyer are open to anyone.
       | Yet I can assure you that while the faculties will take your
       | money, the probability of getting into a Masters/Doctorate level
       | program quickly drops while you worked hard to catch up... Note
       | your GPA took the hits along the way.
       | 
       | People need to recognize there is a subtle yet important
       | difference between intelligence and academic performance. No one
       | ever claimed life was fair, but the hypocrisy of many meritocrats
       | can be intolerable at times.
       | 
       | Stealing Einsteins chalk does not make one Einstein... but does
       | silence talent.
       | 
       | Have a great day, =3
        
       | vecter wrote:
       | This is simple but so effective. When I was 5 or 6 years old, my
       | mom would sometimes give me one page of simple math problems.
       | They were all basic arithmetic, things like 12+17 or 99+99 or
       | 8x7, etc. I did them and got on with my life. They probably
       | didn't take more than 15-20 minutes. They didn't feel like much
       | because they really weren't. I think any 5 year-old can do them.
       | 
       | I believe that whatever little "edge" that gave me in learning
       | math in school compounded exponentially over the years. I always
       | felt "ahead" of the standard school curriculum, and that created
       | a virtuous feedback cycle of success, which bred confidence,
       | which bred success, and so forth.
       | 
       | Just a little nudge here or there at home can make a big
       | difference.
        
       | Bostonian wrote:
       | I remember having trouble in a electricity & magnetism course
       | because I needed to learn some math concepts (divergence,
       | gradient, curl) at the same time as the physics. It would have
       | helped to have studied multivariate calculus before the E&M
       | class.
        
       | tptacek wrote:
       | This presumes an educational career that benefits from
       | engineering math. It's interesting to me that even a lifetime in
       | computer science doesn't necessarily reward this strategy (it
       | might, it might not, depending on focus areas).
        
       | matt3210 wrote:
       | I had to lean match for writing programs at 12 and after just a
       | few weeks of trying to make a game that had some higher math, I
       | was leagues ahead of my classmates.
       | 
       | Need is the key here in my opinion. Kids usually don't like math
       | unless there is a need for math for something they do like.
        
       | rqtwteye wrote:
       | Learning ahead definitely helps me a lot. For some reason I am
       | not capable of learning things from scratch in one swoop. I
       | always need to learn things a little, let them somehow settle in
       | my brain for a while, and then go further. I always had trouble
       | in school when things moved linearly.
        
       | racl101 wrote:
       | Tried teaching my young nephew about math. He just bashed me in
       | the head with the abacus. Then started crying.
        
       | proee wrote:
       | Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I've wasted a ton of time
       | in math classes working through way too many academic exercises
       | that have little real world applications. For example, learning a
       | bunch of tricks to solve a differential equation by hand feels
       | like a circus act. Sure it can be done, but only with a limited
       | set of "textbook" equations. When you get into the real world,
       | you'll need to put those equations into a solver like matlab,
       | etc.
       | 
       | It would be nice IMHO to see a more hybrid approach at
       | Universities to teach math and application at the same time. It's
       | strange to send students through YEARS of math classes without
       | strong application. It's like learning music theory without
       | playing an instrument.
       | 
       | Our academic system in general is still modeled after old-school
       | institutions, based on textbook-style learning that all pretty
       | much follow the same recipe. Is it not crazy that we have
       | classrooms in this day and age with 300 students sitting in desks
       | listening to a single professor? It's insane.
       | 
       | We are ripe for an educational system that is truly disruptive -
       | especially with the rise of AI systems.
        
         | sarora27 wrote:
         | this was my biggest gripe w/ academic math. Whenever i'd ask my
         | teachers how these concepts are applied in the real world, i'd
         | get a non-answer that showed me a) the teachers themselves have
         | no clue and b) they're hoping you'll just shut up and follow
         | the curriculum.
         | 
         | I agree that we are ripe for an educational system that is
         | truly disruptive. Our current educators are so disconnected
         | from the real world and have no idea how to apply what they
         | teach.
        
       | NoNameHaveI wrote:
       | One of the best, most cost effective ways to do this is by
       | enrolling at your local community college. Faculty there are
       | primarily focused on teaching, and WANT you to "get it". In
       | addition to math, I recommend you take ALL the STEM courses you
       | can that you'll touch in university. I took separate classes in
       | Unix and C at community college before my university quickly
       | introduced them in systems programming. Boy, that was time and
       | money well spent.
        
       | dambi0 wrote:
       | Beyond the general idea that the more time you have to think
       | about a problem the more likely it is you will do better at
       | solving it. How does this translate into an ability to solve more
       | emergent problems? Isn't this "hack" somewhat similar to the idea
       | of people who have never had to step up and learn to work harder.
       | And in fact the hack gives a false sense of confidence in the
       | ability to solve more typical real world problems when it
       | matters.
        
       | ivanche wrote:
       | I confirm this! My son is 10, finishing 4th class. We're
       | constantly 6-9 months ahead of his class. I think he once in
       | those 4 years got note 2 (one below highest), every other one was
       | the highest. Vast majority of his math classes look like "oh I
       | know that" or "oh I remember that, just need a 5 min refresher".
       | Thanks to it, he has more time for other subjects. His stress
       | level at school is close to zero.
        
       | DowagerDave wrote:
       | The argument made here is there are risks learning math when
       | everyone else does, so learn it earlier. Great, but how? Only the
       | very few have the resources and environment to learn non-trivial
       | math early. What does this displace? Is it more important for a
       | kid to learn calculus, piano or a second language? Are younger
       | people capable of learning math in a no-painful way? Why do they
       | have patient, knowledgeable teachers at this level but not later?
       | Math can be hard because of the required discipline and practice
       | - are younger people better positioned to solve this, or worse?
       | 
       | It seems insincere to frame this as math is important, and
       | earlier > later without focusing on what this means, or the
       | opportunity costs. Could we just do a global search & replace on
       | 'math' with 'literature' and end up in the same place?
        
       | dilap wrote:
       | Then there's the approach taken by my university's physics
       | department, where they made it a point of pride to always have
       | you using math before you'd learned it from the official math
       | classes...
        
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