[HN Gopher] Samsung's abandoned NX cameras can be brought online...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Samsung's abandoned NX cameras can be brought online with a $20 LTE
       stick
        
       Author : ge0rg
       Score  : 135 points
       Date   : 2024-07-10 12:08 UTC (5 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (op-co.de)
 (TXT) w3m dump (op-co.de)
        
       | ge0rg wrote:
       | Original blog post: https://op-
       | co.de/blog/posts/samsung_nx_mastodon/
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Thanks! We've changed the URL to that from
         | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/07/samsungs-abandoned-n...
         | above.
         | 
         | Submitters: " _Please submit the original source. If a post
         | reports on something found on another site, submit the latter._
         | " - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        
       | scohesc wrote:
       | I'm not a camera enthusiast - but are these cameras still "worth
       | it" to go through all the effort for their qualities, or is this
       | closer to a vintage computer enthusiast just cracking away at
       | something because it's a challenge?
       | 
       | Very interesting route to go through to get the camera working
       | again!
        
         | steve_adams_86 wrote:
         | The hashtag on one of the original author's tweets is
         | "ShittyCameraChallenge" and the photos don't look great, so I
         | think it's mostly about reviving dead tech and learning.
        
         | RobotToaster wrote:
         | Vintage digital cameras, especially the sony ones that use
         | floppy disks, are now "retro" and in fashion with zoomers,
         | apparently.
         | 
         | edit: Many of these aren't that old, the last NX was 2015, I
         | still use a pentax APS-C DSLR around that age and it's fine.
        
           | netsharc wrote:
           | I've seen kids using 2010 era cameras, but I doubt they'd be
           | using ones with floppies. Those are 90's tech and probably
           | have 1024x768 resolution at most, plus can you even buy USB
           | floppy disk drives, or plug it into your phone? (E.g. I have
           | a Micro-SD card reader that I can plug into my phone using
           | USB-C, and I can plug the card into my camera using an Micro-
           | SD-to-SD-adapter).
           | 
           | Then there are the geeks taking pictures using the B&W
           | 320x200 Gameboy cameras, my feeling is even the Gen-Z would
           | view these people as nerds...
        
         | ge0rg wrote:
         | The compact models are probably not competitive to modern
         | smartphones, except if you need optical zoom.
         | 
         | The NX series interchangeable lens cameras however don't fare
         | too badly compared to today's models, and have a good price-
         | point on the used market, if you are ready to do some bargain
         | hunting.
         | 
         | In the last decade, the improvements were largely in sensor
         | resolutions (from 20MP to 40MP, not relevant for most practical
         | uses) and in "smart" auto-focus, with better tracking of eyes,
         | animals or objects.
        
           | cmrdporcupine wrote:
           | In-body image stabilization is another area that has had huge
           | improvements in pro/pro-amateur cameras in the last 10 years.
        
             | ge0rg wrote:
             | Right, that's something that I'm actually sometimes missing
             | on my NX500 when using vintage lenses, but I'm not sure how
             | relevant it is for pro amateurs in general.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | It's super useful, esp if you're going after longer focal
               | lengths and snapping birds, and if you're... like me...
               | into manual focus or vintage lenses. My little Olympus
               | M43 camera has an older IBIS system and it's very useful
               | and I can _definitely_ tell when it 's off or not
               | configured. Newer cameras have made huge improvements in
               | this, and, yeah, autofocus ...
        
         | wongarsu wrote:
         | Just having exchangeable lenses is a huge boon. The sensor is
         | probably worse than what you can find in a modern smart phone,
         | but phones simply don't have the space for deep lenses and thus
         | have to emulate effects like zoom and depth-of-field. On this
         | camera you can have the "real" thing without paying $1000+ for
         | a DSLR and $300+ for a lens.
         | 
         | And of course there's the effect where for every sufficiently
         | popular camera their technical deficiencies become a desirable
         | vintage look, given enough time. Kind of like people preferring
         | vinyl records for their sound
        
           | Marsymars wrote:
           | > The sensor is probably worse than what you can find in a
           | modern smart phone, but phones simply don't have the space
           | for deep lenses
           | 
           | Phones don't have space for big sensors either, other than
           | some gimmicky big-sensor phones (808 PureView, Lumia 1020).
           | The iPhone 15 Pro main camera sensor is 9.8x7.3mm, compared
           | to say, the Ricoh GR III with a 23.5x15.6mm sensor, about 5x
           | larger. The GR III is actually less tall/wide than an iPhone,
           | but about 4x the thickness.
        
         | ianburrell wrote:
         | The big problem with the NX cameras is that they are no longer
         | supported and won't ever get more lenses. If happy with kit
         | lens or adapting manual lenses, then they are probably cheaper
         | than other mirrorless.
        
         | jdfellow wrote:
         | I have an NX Mini (which isn't exactly the same as the regular
         | NX line) which has a "1 inch" sensor and a 3-lens
         | interchangeable system. With the 9mm fixed lens it's as
         | pocketable as a phone, but with a flip-out screen, a real flash
         | and otherwise much better quality. With the 9-27mm zoom lens
         | it's even a reasonable portrait camera. I haven't found one of
         | the 17mm f/1.8 lenses, they're pretty rare.
         | 
         | Anyway, I really like that little thing. With a C-mount lens
         | adapter I can use surveillance camera lenses which is pretty
         | fun.
        
           | ge0rg wrote:
           | I'm a huge fan of the NX mini and they are fully supported by
           | the SNS API bridge.
           | 
           | I have a bunch of them, one converted to infrared. Usually I
           | have the mini with me when the NX500 is too bulky. It's a
           | pity that the lenses are so rare on the used market. The
           | image quality is just awesome for the form factor!
        
         | freeAgent wrote:
         | This is definitely not "worth it" given that NX is a dead
         | platform, but I can totally see it being a passion project for
         | someone who wants to improve the system. The NX cameras were
         | pretty darn good. The NX1, which was the final flagship of the
         | range, was an amazing camera IMO, and of course these cameras
         | can produce excellent images (better than modern smartphones)
         | with their APS-C sensors. Photography is all about light, so
         | smartphones with tiny sensors will always be disadvantaged.
         | Computational photography tries to work around the physical
         | limitations, but it also yields some very unnatural results.
         | Personally, I prefer traditional cameras where the bokeh is
         | real and there's no built-in adjustment to the image.
        
       | samcat116 wrote:
       | Its crazy to me that there isn't a modern version of this kind of
       | camera. Sony and Cannon could be doing a lot to take away from
       | the smartphone share if they made cameras more usable and modern:
       | 
       | - Built in GPS for location tagging in photos(a few cameras have
       | this but for many you need an external dongle attached to the
       | camera)
       | 
       | - Automatic backup of photos to cloud/network storage locations
       | 
       | - built in flash storage for redundancy
       | 
       | - Wifi that isn't trash so you could transfer photos at a
       | meaningful speed
       | 
       | - LTE for the same reason when on location
       | 
       | - Run apps for upload to a variety of services
       | 
       | - More computational photography features
        
         | brokensegue wrote:
         | If you have all that why not also make it a phone?
        
           | glial wrote:
           | Phones have relatively terrible lenses and sensors.
        
             | delecti wrote:
             | That isn't an inevitability. The modem doesn't negatively
             | affect the lenses and sensors, choices by people in
             | companies are what result in worse sensors/lenses in
             | phones.
        
               | samcat116 wrote:
               | It largely is due to physics. There's a reason a Canon
               | 24-70 f2.8 lens is the size that it is.
        
               | hef19898 wrote:
               | My Pixel takes reasonably good images, even printed some
               | in A4, at A3 they suffer. That is for the camera
               | generated JPEGs, the RAW files are all but unusable.
               | 
               | It shows that smartphones use small, and crappy, sensors
               | behind even smaller, and crappier, lenses. Phone got a
               | long way, and there is a reason they replaced point-and-
               | shoots. They are still a far cry from "real" cameras.
        
             | Zambyte wrote:
             | I think you may have missed the "also" in their comment.
        
           | jsheard wrote:
           | Because the thinness of a phone and the optics of a real
           | camera are mutually exclusive. Anything with proper optics is
           | going to be way too chunky to use as a daily driver.
        
             | kjkjadksj wrote:
             | Not always. See ricoh gr. Chunkier than a smartphone with
             | no case? yes. but still fits in the pocket, and probably
             | not much fatter than that same phone after the user has
             | slapped a case and a wallet or a pop socket onto it.
        
             | 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
             | Is that strictly true? If you want it as thin as today's
             | flagship phones, sure, but if you just go for
             | pocketability, it might not be. There are some
             | fantastically compact, perfectly good prime lenses out
             | there. The top end point-and-shoot lines haven't been
             | updated in ages, but even the old ones were are a pretty
             | damned good compromise.
        
         | pphysch wrote:
         | It sounds like you are describing a smartphone with a
         | traditional camera form factor?
        
           | samcat116 wrote:
           | Thats basically what the Galaxy NX was.
        
         | ge0rg wrote:
         | It seems like the consumer market was completely destroyed by
         | smartphones, used by people who don't particularly care about
         | image quality, and the professional market is people who do RAW
         | shooting with image file sizes of 40..90MB, with post-
         | processing on a PC.
         | 
         | Seems like the niche between those markets never was large
         | enough to warrant this functionality, given that both mobile
         | standards and cloud service APIs change multiple times over the
         | lifetime of a camera.
        
           | BobaFloutist wrote:
           | Also given that phone cameras have absurdly high image
           | quality at this point.
        
             | ge0rg wrote:
             | They only have absurdly high resolution. The optical
             | quality is rather mediocre if you need to zoom or shoot in
             | low light.
        
             | chillfox wrote:
             | I can pull out my decade old Sony and it absolutely beats a
             | new iPhone on image quality. Zero contest. Phone images
             | only look ok because they are mostly viewed on a small
             | screen.
        
             | cmrdporcupine wrote:
             | As sibling says... they have high resolution, but terrible
             | optics. Fixed aperture, bad in low light, and all the
             | photos get a similar.. flat... quality to them that they
             | then alter heavily in software with various computational
             | photography / "AI" techniques that ... well, they're fine,
             | and good for the market they're after, but it's limiting.
             | 
             | Even a 15 year old interchangeable lens camera with a lower
             | MP sensor can produce better pictures than a phone, esp if
             | you want to do things like background blur / bokeh which is
             | not possible at all with a phone (though they emulate it in
             | software).
             | 
             | Hell lately I've dug up an old Canon Powershot 12MP CCD
             | digicam out of a box, and put a hacked firmware on it (that
             | can shoot RAW and let you do proper manual control of the
             | lens), and gotten really interesting results. That thing
             | has a tiny sensor, but having actual aperture control makes
             | a big diff.
        
           | estebank wrote:
           | The niche between those two market segments is currently
           | catered to by the used market of older pro gear.
        
             | giobox wrote:
             | The used ILC market is insanely good over the past few
             | years, I'd strongly argue most interchangeable lens cameras
             | passed the "good enough" point for most types of
             | photography circa 2013. This has meant there is basically a
             | decades worth of "good enough" used gear out there to buy.
             | It's a similar story for video folks; lots of old Black
             | Magic m43 cams available for ridiculous prices on eBay etc
             | etc.
             | 
             | The gains from 2013 to today in the ILC market are much
             | less interesting than 2003-2013 was, where we saw a pretty
             | wild rate of improvement from the Canon 300D/Nikon D70
             | beginnings of a consumer market through to the modern era
             | of digital SLRs.
             | 
             | My "daily driver" camera (olympus EM-1 MK II) dates from
             | 2013, as one example of this, and still produces great
             | results. The latest iteration of this model is not a
             | quantum leap for most types of photography.
        
           | spike021 wrote:
           | I think the RAW photo size is the constraint here.
           | 
           | If I'm out shooting an event or something it's not uncommon
           | for me to get 500-1000 frames. Multiply that by say 50MB each
           | and that's a huge chunk of data at least for some cell plans.
           | 
           | I'm an amateur photographer though so it's not a requirement
           | for me. Maybe a professional wouldn't mind writing the
           | expense of mobile data off as a cost of business.
        
         | glial wrote:
         | +1 I would absolutely buy this.
        
           | cmrdporcupine wrote:
           | Many of us would. I love my little Olympus PEN EPL8 camera,
           | the form factor beats the crap out of phones, the quality of
           | the pictures way better (despite "only" 16MP), etc. But the
           | ... software experience is awful. I could come up with dozens
           | of ways to improve the experience that would have been
           | possible even in 2016 when it was made... (In fact I wasted a
           | couple days writing my own custom WiFi remote control program
           | for it a few days ago, hoping to snap birds at the feeder
           | while I sit at my desk, cuz the "OI Share" Olympus/OM Systems
           | one is terrible)
           | 
           | But there's not enough of a market at all to make it
           | justifiable. Software developers are expensive. The
           | interchangeable lens camera market is _tiny_ , and the
           | professional people who spend _serious_ money care less about
           | things like that and more about stellar optics and sensors.
           | 
           | The consumer (and even "pro-sumer") level tier of the camera
           | market has almost disappeared. Even in Japan, which is camera
           | crazy, it's in free-fall still.
           | 
           | Take Panasonic's new GH7, for example, a new rather nice
           | Micro Four Thirds camera with a bunch of advanced features,
           | but kind of targeted towards the video segment (so great for
           | YouTubers, etc)... They announced the production numbers and
           | it's only 4000 a month. That's... basically nothing... in the
           | consumer hardware segment.
           | 
           | That said, I think this segment will come back in a bit. The
           | digicam craze is evidence at least that young people (like my
           | teenage daughter's age) can see the value in the camera form
           | factor over using a phone. The ergonomics are way better. And
           | Fujifilm can't keep the X100V series in stock, it keeps
           | flying off the shelves. Phones themselves are becoming less
           | "cool."
        
         | ge0rg wrote:
         | Samsung actually released multiple Android-based cameras: the
         | Galaxy Camera range with built-in zoom lenses
         | (https://www.zisman.ca/blog/2013-01-05.html) and the Galaxy NX
         | with interchangeable lenses: https://op-
         | co.de/blog/posts/galaxy_nx/
         | 
         | They all suffered from running Android 4.x with no major
         | upgrades from Samsung.
        
           | hef19898 wrote:
           | If I want a camera running a smartphone OS, I use a phone. A
           | camera should be by definition running on dedicated camera
           | firmware, and nothing else.
        
             | roblabla wrote:
             | > A camera should be by definition running on dedicated
             | camera firmware, and nothing else.
             | 
             | Says who? There's no intrinsic reason a camera couldn't run
             | with an Android OS. In fact, there's a lot of good reasons
             | why you would want that - simpler development platform,
             | reusing existing drivers, etc...
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Take a look at the Alice camera:
               | https://www.alice.camera/
               | 
               | Basically an add-on for your phone that adds a serious
               | interchangeable lens sensor.
        
               | account42 wrote:
               | > There's no intrinsic reason a camera couldn't run with
               | an Android OS.
               | 
               | There is: battery life and startup time.
               | 
               | DLSRs have no problem being being on standby for weeks if
               | not months with minimal battery drain and then springing
               | to life within a second at the press of a button. Android
               | phones do no even come remotely close to that level of
               | efficiency.
        
               | tracker1 wrote:
               | A lot of that comes down to the always-on radio on the
               | phone... When I've done road trips, I've used my phone
               | mostly as an mp3/podcast player and had it in airplane
               | mode, and it lasted _much_ longer than when it was just
               | in normal operation. Standby for several days.
               | 
               | My M1 air is in standby for weeks at a time on a single
               | charge. There's no reason you can't do similar with a
               | phone. Maybe not months, but definitely for extended
               | periods of time.
        
               | estebank wrote:
               | A DSLR has the added benefit of not needing a screen to
               | be on for it to work (this is why they still have better
               | battery life than mirror less as well). Then again, SLRs
               | have even better battery life (it's only used for the
               | light meter and on newer models autofocus motor and film
               | advance).
        
               | spondylosaurus wrote:
               | E-readers running Android can last forever on a single
               | charge, too. The biggest drain on most phones' battery
               | are the wireless radio (like you described) and those
               | big, beautiful screens :) But certainly not the OS
               | itself!
        
               | hef19898 wrote:
               | Sure, a camera is a specialized tool doing a limited set
               | of functions. It does not need the vast majority of
               | functions Android offers: phone, 5g, internet, app
               | stores... No nerd for that on a camera.
               | 
               | What camera needs: fast "boot", stability, reliability,
               | ability to run offline for decades.
               | 
               | And no, I don't want all software being developed the way
               | a social.media app for a phone is.
        
               | batch12 wrote:
               | But how else will you get ads on your viewfinder?
        
         | jauntywundrkind wrote:
         | Sony used to have a whole Android subsystem on their Alpha
         | cameras. It kind of surprised me more 3rd party stuff didn't
         | come out that took advantage of this programmability.
         | https://github.com/ma1co/Sony-PMCA-RE
        
           | morsch wrote:
           | It's incredibly slow and clunky. They're just bad at
           | software. Even if the third party app was good, just getting
           | to it through the camera interface would make it agonizing to
           | use.
        
         | thih9 wrote:
         | Stating the obvious, the market decided that the opposite would
         | happen, i.e. that the smartphones would take away the market
         | share of camera manufacturers instead. Smartphone camera
         | experience is good enough for most people and smartphones offer
         | other features as well.
        
           | samcat116 wrote:
           | I don't know if there was ever really a shot at the form
           | factor I'm describing in the market, but you are likely
           | right.
        
           | cmrdporcupine wrote:
           | It's not dissimilar to back in the pre-digital camera era...
           | most people were fine with having a crappy point&shoot or
           | disposable camera, and then we all had that nerdy uncle or
           | friend who was really into cameras and willing to spend the
           | money on a real 35mm SLR or rangefinder or whatever.
           | 
           | Phones have taken the place of the old point and shoots.
           | 
           | That doesn't mean that manufacturers of pro-sumer
           | interchangeable lens cameras couldn't do a better job with
           | software, though...
        
             | kwhitefoot wrote:
             | > most people were fine with having a crappy point&shoot or
             | disposable camera,
             | 
             | No they weren't. There just weren't any other options that
             | were as affordable or convenient.
             | 
             | A kilo of SLR does not compete in the same space as a Kodak
             | Instamatic.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | You just repeated my point. It's a different market
               | segment and always was.
               | 
               | Phones are now sitting in that segment of casual
               | photography. And are "affordable" and convenient.
               | 
               | Those of us who are nerdy about pictures, go and buy a
               | mirrorless. But that's always going to be a small and
               | different segment.
               | 
               | This may not last forever. Phones are becoming less
               | "cool" to people. They might come around again to
               | carrying multiple specialized devices.
        
               | schrijver wrote:
               | I'd say there are three groups: A) casual photography for
               | capturing memories B) casual but with a desire to take
               | better quality pictures C) enthusiastic amateurs and
               | pros.
               | 
               | Now only C will buy a dedicated camera. But in the late
               | 0's and the 2010's, segment B did too--lots of people
               | bought DSLRs to get better quality pictures -- often
               | sticking to the kit lens and not getting all geeky about
               | photography... just putting everything on automatic would
               | still offer much better quality than a compact camera or
               | a phone camera.
               | 
               | As phone cameras got better, people in this market
               | segment switched to phones -- they might just care more
               | about the type of camera on the phone than the most
               | casual of users do.
               | 
               | Consequently camera sales have plummeted:
               | https://www.statista.com/statistics/799526/shipments-of-
               | digi...
        
             | hef19898 wrote:
             | What software exactly are modern DSLRs or mirrorless
             | cameras missing? I know, picking at software is a favorite
             | past time on HN, but most of the time it is missing the
             | point. Examples for this include: ERP systems, embeded and
             | or safety relevant software, software in highly regulated
             | markets or sectors. And, it seems, cameras. Computational
             | photography is all fine, on an iPhone.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | The most glaring is just good integration with phones and
               | cloud services. From what I've seen, none of the systems
               | that offer WiFi/Bluetooth integration are actually any
               | good.
               | 
               | In terms of computational photography... I think they're
               | fine... a lot of things can be done in post-processing,
               | which is fine, and there's been amazing advances in
               | autofocus and stabilization.
        
               | vel0city wrote:
               | Eh. Shuffling pictures from my G9x MkII to my Android
               | phone is pretty simple enough. I do wish the data
               | transfer speeds were faster, but it is still stupid
               | simple to pair to the phone. From there I can see the
               | photos and choose which to download. Or I can select them
               | on my camera and send them to my phone or laptop. I've
               | often taken the camera with me on a trip with some
               | friends and shuffled the photos into group chats the next
               | time I had a few minutes of downtime.
               | 
               | The camera which is several years old at this point
               | already has some good video stabilization. The AF is
               | backed with good hardware, its pretty good and can even
               | do face detection. Its far faster and more accurate than
               | my much newer Pixel.
               | 
               | I wouldn't really care to do much post processing on the
               | camera itself other than the basic filters and affects it
               | can already do, as the interface is pretty small so it is
               | hard to get details. If I'm really going to do some post-
               | processing I'll be pushing it to my desktop with a large
               | monitor so I can really see what I'm doing. But honestly
               | if I'm going to work at it on my desktop I'll more likely
               | just pull out the SD card and stick it in the computer
               | and get far faster transfer speeds.
               | 
               | About the only feature I'd personally like would just be
               | some kind of direct camera integration with Google
               | Photos/OneDrive/iCloud/OwnCloud/whatever, have it just
               | start syncing photos the moment it detects its online.
               | That and good built-in GPS support. Apart from that I
               | don't really know what else I'd do with more "smart"
               | connectivity. I bought a camera like this _because_ I
               | wanted to manually adjust things instead of having some
               | AI model twist and warp the photo into whatever the
               | training data suggests looks good.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Interesting. I posted on the micro four thirds subreddit
               | recently asking if the Panasonic app integration was any
               | better than Olympus' (which ... isn't good) and
               | commenters seemed to agree it was not.
               | 
               | I'll consider a switch to a Panasonic for my next camera,
               | since OM Systems seems mostly moribund.
        
               | vel0city wrote:
               | The G9x MkII is a Canon camera.
               | 
               | FWIW I don't know if they'll make another G9x. The most
               | recent similar camera would probably be the G7x Mk III. I
               | think that's probably the camera I'd get if I were to
               | replace my G9x tomorrow. I'm a huge fan of the small size
               | of this G9x though.
               | 
               | https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-
               | powershot-g9-x-mark-i...
               | 
               | https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/p/powershot-g7-x-mark-iii
               | 
               | I've heard positive things about Panasonic's devices in
               | this market and strongly considered going with one years
               | ago.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Ah, sorry, I thought you meant the Panasonic DC-G9 MKII.
        
               | vel0city wrote:
               | I can see the confusion! Those are some incredibly
               | similar names.
        
               | kjkjadksj wrote:
               | Pro photos are too large to be any good with syncing to a
               | cloud service while you are on the go. My 16mp camera is
               | considered old at this point but still makes 34mb raw
               | files. 15 photo burst is a half a gb in other words. now
               | measure your lte upload speed.
        
               | xp84 wrote:
               | Agree. If I were Canon, I'd try backing a truck full of
               | money up to Apple in order to secure an API connection
               | through which their cameras could have the user
               | authenticate securely with Apple and throw photos into a
               | black box, which would spit them into the user's iCloud
               | Photo Library exactly like an iPhone pic. It may be too
               | late though if Apple thinks people might delay iPhone
               | upgrades (since those are so often camera-quality-driven)
               | if they had a better-quality way to take pictures.
        
           | account42 wrote:
           | Did the market decide that or were there simply never any
           | good options from the big camera makers?
        
             | tracker1 wrote:
             | The market definitely decided this... Even before internet
             | access was common on phones, or phone cameras were decent,
             | the requests were for better cameras on phones. Because the
             | camera you're more likely to use is the one you have with
             | you. You're more likely to have your phone than a separate
             | camera, and photos are often a matter of opportunity.
        
               | jrflowers wrote:
               | This makes sense because "the market" rather than a
               | handful of cellular companies decided that people want
               | LTE connectivity to be expensive and relegated to phones
        
               | awad wrote:
               | Cell companies will sell connectivity to whoever will buy
               | it though. Cars, watches, and anything IoT they can get
               | their signal to.
        
               | jrflowers wrote:
               | For ~$30/mo in the US per device, hence why most people
               | cannot justify owning multiple LTE-connected devices.
        
               | londons_explore wrote:
               | I think they would happily negotiate that price down to
               | nil per month, _if_ they could be absolutely sure a
               | 'device' on your account wasn't actually your cousin
               | 'sharing' your cellular account to save a bit of money.
        
           | Suppafly wrote:
           | What the market wants and what manufacturers provide isn't
           | 100% aligned though. You make a good point about people
           | wanting better cameras on their phones, but that doesn't
           | totally eliminate the market for better portable cameras.
           | Even if manufacturers would rather put their r&d money in
           | areas that would be more profitable, that doesn't necessarily
           | mean that there is no profit in other areas.
        
             | afavour wrote:
             | I think it's a scale thing. The market for those devices
             | exists but it's not big enough to justify the investment.
        
               | kjkjadksj wrote:
               | Its really a physics thing at a certain point.
               | Smartphones are always worse than their contemporary
               | purpose built camera counterparts because smartphone
               | cameras have to be so small. Meanwhile a pro camera could
               | weigh 10 pounds with a lens the size of your thigh. We
               | simply don't know enough about optics to take that
               | package and put it into a smartphone without compromising
               | quality in some way.
        
               | wlesieutre wrote:
               | The optics and sensors might be a physics thing, but
               | everything else about standalone cameras really could've
               | done much better at staying competitive.
               | 
               | As others have mentioned, lack of geotagging, wireless
               | connectivity, and other convenience features made them
               | poor competitors to smartphones. And it wasn't just
               | wireless connectivity being behind the times, Canon's T7i
               | (aka 800D) launched in 2017 still made you find a _mini_
               | USB cable. They were good at optics, but dropped the ball
               | on the rest of the product.
               | 
               | Even though the phone had worse quality pictures, it
               | brought many other things to the table.
        
               | solardev wrote:
               | I don't think any of the camera manufacturers have good
               | UX people. They sell engineering, not usability. Even
               | Sony, who makes a bunch of laptops and phones and such,
               | sucks at this compared to the West. Maybe it's just not a
               | strong part of Japanese corporate culture?
        
               | kjkjadksj wrote:
               | They sell tools not toys. Of course the ux is different
               | than what most developers designing for the consumer
               | might be used to. Its brilliant for what it is on a pro
               | camera. Lots of physical buttons, informationally dense
               | displays, instant startup and off, able to use the device
               | without the screen on at all (in the case of a dslr at
               | least). Does exactly what it says on the tin for you and
               | its not going to rearrange how all the menus work every 3
               | years when a new PM wants to make a name for themselves.
        
               | solardev wrote:
               | Well, the overall UX isn't just the UI (getting photos
               | geotagged or edited or off the camera, for example, are
               | pain points others have pointed out that they still don't
               | address well). Of course form factor is a (big) part of
               | it too.
               | 
               | Even when discussing just the on-camera UI, there's
               | nothing about "tools for professionals" that says they
               | must never change the UI, or that every setting must be
               | immediately accessible in a flat hierarchy, or that you
               | must use a one-axis scroll wheel to change a 2D focus
               | point, etc.
               | 
               | Yes, it's a great thing that there are features of a
               | standalone camera (like instant on, or physical buttons)
               | that smartphones don't have. However, that doesn't mean
               | the cameras have to disregard all the UX and UI changes
               | other electronics have gone through over the last 10-20
               | years (some good, some bad, but over the long term
               | they've become more approachable to more people).
               | Meanwhile cameras remained largely unchanged and as a
               | result DSLRs are pretty much a dead segment now. (I too
               | loved the viewfinder and ability to use them without an
               | screen, especially when optical... but not the rest of
               | the experience).
               | 
               | As a former amateur photographer, I eventually sold all
               | my bodies and lenses because it was just such a pain to
               | use them compared to the smartphones and prosumer prime
               | compacts of the day, which were all iterating much faster
               | than the "proper" DSLRs. Back in those days, even just
               | getting the photos off the camera wirelessly was a pain,
               | requiring the use of 3rd-party WiFi SD cards or really
               | old USB cables. I think these days mirrorless is once
               | again trying new things, but I'm out of the hobby now and
               | can't afford to reinvest into it :(
        
               | kjkjadksj wrote:
               | Do people really feel like its geotagging and wifi thats
               | holding the market back? To me its just a lack of
               | exposure (no pun intended) to what a camera can do for
               | you among the general class of consumers. knowledge of
               | shutter speed, aperture, metering the scene used to be
               | required to take a photo at all, now its a black box
               | where even if you know what this means your phone doesn't
               | let you at the controls. On top of that consider a
               | prosumer camera. Mine from 10 years ago takes 34mb raws.
               | new ones probably double or triple that. SD card
               | transfers to your workstation make quick work of that,
               | much faster than piddly old wifi or the backing up to
               | cloud services I see mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
               | Imagine uploading 16gb to dropbox while out and about,
               | the camera would never shut off.
        
               | bsder wrote:
               | But then why hasn't open source stepped into the breach?
               | 
               | This seems like the kind of thing that a single,
               | dedicated hacker could crack wide open.
               | 
               | The pieces are all commodity, no? People can buy lenses
               | independently, so you don't have to design those.
               | Everything else should be COTS--processor,
               | networking/cellular, display, etc.
               | 
               | It might not be super cheap, but it shouldn't exceed $500
               | on the BOM. And then people can iterate on it over time.
        
           | blagie wrote:
           | "The market" didn't decide. There are maybe five major camera
           | companies (Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, and Panasonic), and a
           | few minor ones (Fuji, Pentax, Casio, Sigma).
           | 
           | No one tried.
           | 
           | Everyone wants proprietary lock-in. No one wants to open up.
           | 
           | It's very much like the pre-iPhone phone market. It's not
           | that no one wanted an iPhone, but that before Apple, no one
           | was willing to try making one.
           | 
           | As a result, the camera market is all but dead:
           | 
           | https://www.canonwatch.com/here-is-what-happened-to-the-
           | came...
           | 
           | My phone works better for most purposes (holistically) than
           | my full-frame camera. At this point, no one has money to make
           | the kind of investment needed to revive it, and an open model
           | is unlikely to see the light of day. 2024 models aren't much
           | better than 2014 models. My main camera is from 2012, and not
           | worth upgrading.
           | 
           | Curiously, lenses keep progressing at a slow but steady clip.
           | Sigma just announced an f/1.8 full frame 28-45mm zoom lens.
        
             | thih9 wrote:
             | > No one tried.
             | 
             | There were many attempts, some listed in other
             | comments[1][2].
             | 
             | > 2024 models aren't much better than 2014 models.
             | 
             | Depending on the type of photography that you do, there
             | were significant improvements[3]. Not to mention mirrorless
             | replacing DSLRs.
             | 
             | [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40970059
             | 
             | [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40970490
             | 
             | [3]: https://fstoppers.com/gear/decade-evolution-cameras-
             | now-vers...
        
               | cyberax wrote:
               | No, there really were not. NX was the only one, Yongnuo
               | is not available globally and Sony made only one half-
               | assed attempt.
               | 
               | Even the basic GPS tagging is not available on most
               | cameras. You have to run some crapp on your phone and
               | hope that Bluetooth works.
        
               | thih9 wrote:
               | I also recall Zeiss ZX1. There was a Nikon Coolpix S800c.
               | Another comment mentioned RED cameras. With what you
               | listed, that's already a handful of products that flopped
               | - I'm not surprised manufacturers aren't eager to
               | continue this way.
               | 
               | Interestingly, Android was originally meant to be a
               | camera OS, until they pivoted because mobile phones were
               | a larger market[1].
               | 
               | [1]: https://www.androidauthority.com/android-history-
               | digital-cam...
        
               | cyberax wrote:
               | > Zeiss ZX1
               | 
               | For a cool $10k? Not going to be popular in any case, as
               | are the RED cameras. These are all pro-level cameras.
               | 
               | > Nikon Coolpix S800c
               | 
               | A useless toy, that happened to have a just barely better
               | image quality than built-in phone cameras at that time.
               | 
               | If you try to find mirrorless cameras with Android, with
               | a reasonable price ($1k-$3k), then there's only NX.
               | Nobody else even tried that seriously.
               | 
               | NX was great, I had it for a while (it was stolen). It
               | suffered from Gen1 diseases, that could have been fixed.
               | But _nothing_ comes close in usability ever since. I have
               | Sony Alpha, and it's UI/UX is just shit. I don't use it
               | at all anymore, I don't want to spend time categorizing
               | and manually geotagging its photos.
        
               | high_priest wrote:
               | And now GPS Telemetry is also being removed from GoPro's
               | for some reason.
        
             | akira2501 wrote:
             | > no one was willing to try making one.
             | 
             | Yea and the abysmal experience with the iPhone 1, 2 and 3
             | showed precisely why.
             | 
             | > No one wants to open up.
             | 
             | The first iPhone was only available on a single cellular
             | carrier in the US.
             | 
             | > no one has money to make the kind of investment needed to
             | revive it,
             | 
             | It's not the lack of money. It's the lack of expected ROI.
        
             | mananaysiempre wrote:
             | Olympus exited the business, sadly. I don't know if they
             | were slimming down after the "accounting scandal" aka
             | exposed corporate fraud or something else, but I'm a bit
             | disappointed, what with my almost ten-year-old Olympus m4/3
             | body (that _was_ an attempt at an open standard, by the
             | way, and IIRC even Fuji participated before they decided to
             | go it alone). On the other hand, as you say, sensor-wise
             | it's not really significantly worse than what I can buy
             | today.
        
         | yial wrote:
         | So, a lot of what you list is missing. But the canon 6d mkii
         | has WiFi, and GPS. Allowing some of those features if tethered
         | / connected to another device.
        
           | samcat116 wrote:
           | I own the 6D MKI and am sad that I didn't wait for the MKII!
        
         | chillfox wrote:
         | Their cameras weren't actually all that good at being cameras.
         | Having used one it was a frustrating experience of constantly
         | missing shots because of how slow it was to turn on. In
         | comparison Sony was near instant.
        
         | TechDebtDevin wrote:
         | Uh sir. I already have a phone that does this.
        
         | cmrdporcupine wrote:
         | While it doesn't tick all the boxes you're talking about, you
         | might be interested in the Pixii rangefinder cameras.
         | 
         | Damn expensive though.
        
         | brk wrote:
         | I used to do a lot of shooting with my Canon 5D. I had
         | thousands of dollars in various lenses, plus some specialized
         | flashes, etc. It took great pictures, but all that gear was
         | bulky and heavy.
         | 
         | 99% of the time I wasn't taking pictures with the intent of
         | blowing them up to poster-size prints, or selling them to major
         | publications. I was just taking pictures to document and share
         | elements of day to day life.
         | 
         | (You probably see where this is going).
         | 
         | Smartphone cameras have kept up well enough with most consumer
         | needs that it would be really hard to justify carrying a
         | dedicated camera. Further, that camera would need to have all
         | of the features of a smart phone camera (eg: filters,
         | touchscreen, lightweight editing, etc. As you also pointed out)
         | that it makes it unlikely to exist in a practical manner.
         | 
         | I will say I'm slightly surprised we haven't see an external
         | "lens and sensor only" gadget that pairs with a phone. Use this
         | gadget to capture a better raw image, and then use the phone to
         | do everything else. Could be a USB/cable tether, or even some
         | form of wireless (bluetooth is probably too slow though?).
         | 
         | tl;dr - I'm not carrying a dedicated camera around, no matter
         | how much better the images might be.
        
           | cmrdporcupine wrote:
           | _" I will say I'm slightly surprised we haven't see an
           | external "lens and sensor only" gadget that pairs with a
           | phone."_
           | 
           | We have. They've all failed.
           | 
           | Olympus tried (2016):
           | 
           | https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/olympus-air-a01
           | 
           | Alice Camera is a kickstarter thing that _might_ be about to
           | ship now finally?
           | 
           | https://www.alice.camera/
           | 
           | And there's another recent one, SwitchLens:
           | 
           | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/halohub/switchlens-
           | powe...
           | 
           | There's others that have been tried too I think?
        
             | vel0city wrote:
             | Sony also had a product line of these kinds of devices a
             | decade ago. You know its an old review when one of the cons
             | listed is "No support for Windows Phone."
             | 
             | https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/sony-cyber-shot-dsc-qx10
        
             | dingaling wrote:
             | Yongnuo offered the YN450, an Android camera with enormous
             | Canon EF mount:
             | 
             | https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/yongnuo-
             | yn450-androi...
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Mind boggling they put an EF mount over a 4/3rds sensor!
               | M43 lenses are smaller and cheaper and the mount spec is
               | an open standard and license free I believe.
               | 
               | Personally I like analog dials and like to have them
               | configured to control ISO and shutter speed, so would
               | have a hard time using a touch-screen only system like
               | this. Same problem I have with the Sigma camera.
        
             | ChainOfFools wrote:
             | I looked at the Alice camera, and immediately had to
             | suppress the urge to sign up for the kickstarter while I
             | took a step back to consider that this will end up in the
             | tech junk drawer after a few novelty outings.
             | 
             | It fails the same 'one extra thing to carry around and keep
             | protected while not in use, which is most of the time' test
             | as small mirrorless point and shoots and micro four thirds
             | interchangeable lens cameras ( speaking as a long time OM-D
             | user and enthusiast)
             | 
             | And if it's possible to affix it to my phone it will also
             | get left home sooner rather than later, because now all of
             | my phone accessories, mag safe chargers, car mounts, cases,
             | etc no longer fit, which makes it cumbersome to carry
             | around and use as a phone.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Funny I forget about my phone and barely use it, while my
               | Olympus PEN E-PL8 goes with me everywhere :-) My phone
               | gets used for Android Auto and 2FA and that's about it.
               | 
               | But to me the Alice thing is the worst of both worlds.
               | Still need to use the stupid touchscreen LCD (which sucks
               | for my aging eyes), doesn't have analog controls. But is
               | still a bulkyish object. Hang anything other than a
               | pancake lens on that, and the ergonomics are going to
               | blow, too.
        
             | seltzered_ wrote:
             | Sony QX series, as mentioned in my other comment:
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40970490
        
           | Suppafly wrote:
           | >I will say I'm slightly surprised we haven't see an external
           | "lens and sensor only" gadget that pairs with a phone.
           | 
           | This, camera tech on phones is great, but it's never better
           | than a dedicated device. Plus, the models with best cameras
           | aren't always the best phone experience. An external camera
           | device that you could attach lenses and such to, but could
           | dump the data on to your phone, and get GPS and such from
           | your phone, would be a great middle ground.
        
             | hef19898 wrote:
             | Camera tech on a phone is automated post-processing.
             | Nothing else.
        
         | GJim wrote:
         | > Its crazy to me that there isn't a modern version of this
         | kind of camera
         | 
         | You can bluetooth-pair (most) modern 'pocket' cameras with your
         | phone to get this functionality.
         | 
         | (And for the uninitiated; such cameras will have infinitely
         | better picture quality than can be provided by lenses than fit
         | in a phone. I always take such a camera where carrying a full-
         | blown SLR would be a pain the in the arse).
        
         | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
         | Almost everyone already has a camera that has all of these
         | features in their smartphone that they already carry with them.
         | 
         | That limits the market for a second device that is a better
         | camera with all those features but not a smartphone.
         | 
         | Of course, computational photography combined with a proper
         | lens and better sensor would be amazing, but it'd be a niche
         | product and expensive (since it would be made in small numbers,
         | and require expensive compute and much more RAM than current
         | phones tend to have).
        
         | tqi wrote:
         | Battery, space, and startup time limitations probably. As it is
         | mirrorless cameras can only get like 350 frames per charge, so
         | adding more power hungry features like GPS or LTE would only
         | make thay worse. Camera bodies are packed as is, so having a
         | limited amount of fixed storage (when there is perfectly good
         | removable options) take up valuable space is not an especially
         | appealing trade off. And lastly / most importantly, I need a
         | camera to be ready to go as soon as I turn it on, I don't have
         | time to wait for a full OS to boot up. Standby mode could
         | mitigate that but see previous concerns about battery life.
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | > And lastly / most importantly, I need a camera to be ready
           | to go as soon as I turn it on, I don't have time to wait for
           | a full OS to boot up. Standby mode could mitigate that but
           | see previous concerns about battery life.
           | 
           | Sony's Alpha series all run Linux, with standby.
        
           | out_of_protocol wrote:
           | Just imagine taping cheap $100 android phone together
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > - Built in GPS for location tagging in photos(a few cameras
         | have this but for many you need an external dongle attached to
         | the camera)
         | 
         | Sony's lineup actually _has_ support for precisely that in the
         | pinout of the MI Shoe which all their cameras since over a
         | decade use [1].
         | 
         | Unfortunately, the <insert swear word of choice> at Sony never
         | released a GPS dongle, and while there has been root available
         | for all Sony Alpha models up until the A7S2 via the integrated
         | (fossil and cut-down...) Android subsystem and they all run
         | Linux, to my knowledge no one has reverse engineered the MI
         | shoe comms interface, how to get that ruddy thing into being a
         | wifi _client_ instead of that temporary hotspot crap, or how to
         | make it behave like a goddamn normal UVC webcam over USB
         | instead of needing their brutally unstable client app.
         | 
         | Sony makes truly best-in-class hardware (no one else has a
         | competitor for the S series in a low-light scenario) at the
         | best possible price point... but damn no matter what hardware
         | they're dealing with, they're the typical Japanese company that
         | cannot get software right.
         | 
         | Rant over.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Interface_Shoe
        
           | petepete wrote:
           | My Nikon D5300 had GPS back in 2013.
           | 
           | It's the only thing I miss having upgraded to a D500 some
           | years later.
        
             | Symbiote wrote:
             | I had a Sony Alpha 55 worth it in 2010.
             | 
             | Long ago I read it's no longer built-in to simplify sales
             | in places like China, which forbid personal GPS.
        
         | Lammy wrote:
         | > Its crazy to me that there isn't a modern version of this
         | kind of camera.
         | 
         | There is, I own one, and it has every feature in your list!
         | YONGNUO YN455, Android-10-powered 20MP Micro Four Thirds
         | camera: https://www.hkyongnuo.com/productinfo/660161.html
         | 
         | LTE band compatibility would be an issue for many, but I have
         | it working successfully on T-Mobile US. I don't prefer using it
         | for stills over my Panasonic/Olympus bodies, but I _love_ it
         | for video.
         | 
         | Here's what it looks like: https://i.imgur.com/3mdBWXt.jpeg (my
         | photo, with Laowa 6mm Cinema lens)
         | 
         | And here's what it sees:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzlBA2wSU7w
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | At least Sony cameras can do automatic uploads either directly
         | from camera, or tethered to phone. Afaik its primarily aimed at
         | (sports) photojournalists who need to get photos out as quickly
         | as possible, basically you can have editor pick up photos in
         | near real-time. At least the couple models I checked advertise
         | 2.4/5GHz 802.11ac wifi, so that seems like it should be decent
         | enough. For geotagging, it should work fine if you have
         | tethered to your phone.
        
         | seltzered_ wrote:
         | - Sony briefly had a 'screenless' series of 'smart lens'
         | cameras around 2014 - the Sony QX1 (
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_ILCE-QX1 ), QX10, QX30 and
         | QX100 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSC-QX100 ) where you
         | brought your smartphone to act as the screen. I think the
         | concept at the time was just too abstract and clunky since it
         | meant clamping on the camera to a phone, and probably had
         | latency issues. They've also tried to make some high-end
         | smartphones with better camera apps but it was a niche
         | audience.
         | 
         | - RED also had some smartphones with a connector interface to
         | supposedly add cameras, but the product line flopped pretty
         | quickly.
        
           | madeofpalk wrote:
           | Samsung had a point-and-shoot with an android phone stuck to
           | the back about 10 years ago as well.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_Camera
        
             | ge0rg wrote:
             | And even one with interchangeable lenses: https://op-
             | co.de/blog/posts/galaxy_nx/
        
           | DHPersonal wrote:
           | Nikon had an Android camera, too:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBL_FKY4Qzo
        
         | petepete wrote:
         | I think the Zeiss ZX1 has most of this, LTE aside (which
         | shouldn't be a problem seeing as it runs Android)
         | 
         | https://www.zeiss.co.uk/consumer-products/photography/zx1.ht...
        
           | lytfyre wrote:
           | unfortunately discontinued.
           | 
           | The 6000$USD price tag unfortunately made it hard to justify
           | at the time.
        
         | beAbU wrote:
         | Add the ability to make calls and you are really on to
         | something here!
        
           | darknavi wrote:
           | Don't forget to put an iPod in there!
        
         | kmfrk wrote:
         | Rather than going by camera, wifi SD cards were a lot of fun
         | back in the day. I wonder how much you can do with the modern
         | smaller form factor of modern SD cards. Could pair it up with
         | an app on your phone via Bluetooth etc to retrofit more
         | features on. Much like an Apple Shortcuts/CloudKit.
         | 
         | Would be a fun retrofuturist experiment to backport fun newer
         | things to old tech with big SD cards.
         | 
         | Sounds like things haven't improved much in the past twenty
         | years based on links like these:
         | 
         | https://nerdtechy.com/best-wifi-sd-card
         | 
         | https://old.reddit.com/r/photography/comments/12ocr4u/the_wi...
        
           | samcat116 wrote:
           | I remember those! Yeah they were never that great.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | Cloud connection, wifi, flash storage, apps, computational
         | photography, and I assume some sort of display screen ... You
         | basically want a phone that does everything except make calls?
        
         | to11mtm wrote:
         | It's not Crazy because you outlined all the ways it breaks or
         | goes obsolete without a lot of maintanence...
         | 
         | - GPS doesn't count, although 'corrections' can be interesting.
         | 
         | - IDK you can totally do a workflow with a Sony camera to send
         | to a phone/etc, may not be full-auto but I've done it.
         | 
         | - As a 'shooter' I'd rather get proper SD card redundancy on
         | less-high end models than see a flash buffer for that isn't
         | already present in how things work
         | 
         | - My a6000 had decent wifi speeds at the start, but it's hard
         | to keep up with standards, also it's hard to get around the
         | 'noise' of other wifi devices without making the camera larger
         | or complicating the design for the sake of a wifi antenna.
         | 
         | - LTE is a continually moving target, adds cost for a marginal
         | set of users that will bother to set it up.
         | 
         | - Everyone who's tried even a small amount of this never got
         | far.
         | 
         | - Moving target. You're better off using DxO PhotoLab or
         | Lightroom and keeping that up to date.
         | 
         | Mind you, this viewpoint is coming from the 'minmaxer'. Aside
         | from my a6700 (and before that my a6000) I keep one 'main'
         | camera as well as one or more 'cheap bodies' (i.e. store floor
         | models or previous camera).
         | 
         | This makes it easier to do shots with different focal ranges
         | without a lens change...
         | 
         | Pros will often have multiple bodies (but will be more
         | discerning than 'oh hey 150$ with a lens lets goooooooo') and
         | thus will have similar concerns...
        
       | Scene_Cast2 wrote:
       | It's a bit weird that there aren't any great ultraportable high
       | quality cameras anymore. Some interesting ones I've found are the
       | Yongnuo YN450M and the Switchlens.
        
         | cmrdporcupine wrote:
         | There's a lot of hand-wringing in the micro-four-thirds camera
         | community about why Panasonic and OM Systems haven't released
         | any updates to their older small/portable cameras (which the
         | M43 system was great for, the lenses being much smaller than
         | APS-C and full-frame). It's likely there's just no money in it
         | and so they're focusing on more $$ niche tiers instead, with
         | larger bodies. (Panasonic on video, OM Systems on bird/nature
         | photography).
         | 
         | Fujifilm is having great success with their fixed-lens X100V,
         | though.
        
         | Zambyte wrote:
         | I don't know if "ultra portable" is referring to a specific
         | kind of camera type, but I got a Sony ZV-1 on black friday last
         | year, and since then it has been my go-to camera over both my
         | DSLR and smart phone. I usually just carry it in my pocket
         | instead of my phone these days, but I also can fit it in my
         | pocket with my phone if I want to.
        
           | madeofpalk wrote:
           | Sony RX100 line is very portable...
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | People who want separate non-ilc camera are already niche.
         | People who want to compromise image quality and ergonomics for
         | ultracompactness is small niche within that niche. Its not like
         | something Fujis X100, Sonys ZV, or Ricohs are _huge_ cameras
        
           | tomatocracy wrote:
           | Not sure about the Sony ZV or Ricohs but the X100 series are
           | _excellent_ cameras - the compromise of going for a prime
           | lens works very well for this format in my view (Sony used to
           | have the RX1 series but it was probably too expensive and a
           | bit too big to work). I 've used them since the X100s.
           | 
           | They also seem to be rising in popularity recently amongst
           | people who don't also own a pile of DSLRs or MILCs - I think
           | this is mostly due to the retro styling.
        
             | roblh wrote:
             | Rise in popularity is an understatement. People who ordered
             | the X100vi on launch day 6 months ago are still months away
             | from actually getting them. The demand is just insane, they
             | can't make them fast enough, even after moving production
             | to China (which is kind of unfortunate).
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | The market has changed, its not too surprising. That said you
         | can get your ricoh gr still.
        
       | gruturo wrote:
       | Partially off topic:
       | 
       | What happened to the "non-flat" CCD / CMOS sensors which were
       | going to enable awesome smartphone cameras, by allowing lens
       | assemblies with far fewer elements and virtually no chromatic
       | aberration? Thanks to the fewer elements whey could be way
       | thinner (or much wider in the same thickness, collecting way more
       | light) and still fit in a smartphone body. This was supposed to
       | especially benefit smartphones due to their fixed lenses (while
       | for a variable zoom lens you would need different sensor
       | curvature depending on the zoom level which is trickier....).
       | 
       | A couple relevant links (just a few search results):
       | 
       | https://optics.org/news/12/5/4
       | 
       | https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sonys-new-curved-ima...
       | 
       | https://www.dpreview.com/news/7542036825/french-startup-is-p...
       | 
       | Also, the quickly deformable (with an electric field) "liquid"
       | lenses which would revolutionize the lens aspect, similarly
       | appearing in a lot of news and then never seemingly materialize.
       | 
       | https://opg.optica.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-31-26-43416&id...
       | 
       | https://www.nextpit.com/liquid-lens-technology-smartphones
        
         | picture wrote:
         | As someone with mild knowledge of semiconductor fabrication and
         | optics, I honestly think these technology are not that
         | meaningful to justify their cost of development and
         | implementation, compared to the winning solution of arbitrarily
         | complex plastic lens assemblies.
         | 
         | Chromatic aberration can be good enough with doublet lens
         | design and Petzval is largely solved by the final field
         | flattener usually with multiple concave and convex sections,
         | and you can still easily fit a large number of lenses in a
         | small formfactor.
         | 
         | Additionally being able to adjust the power of a lens is not a
         | huge gamechanger, as a lot of the complexity with modern optic
         | design is to counter various defects and distortion like
         | aforementioned Petzval.
         | 
         | Rather, the fundamental limit is the sensor size. It's just not
         | practical to achieve much better image quality with a
         | physically small system
        
           | gruturo wrote:
           | Thanks for the information! But my understanding was exactly
           | in the direction of the issue you point out - the fundamental
           | limit being the sensor size.
           | 
           | A curved sensor would, by allowing a relatively thinner (due
           | to fewer elements) lens assembly, could have a larger area,
           | and still remain within the allowed overall "thickness
           | budget" of the smartphone. Hence my surprise that they seem
           | to have gone nowhere.
        
       | petabyt wrote:
       | The Fuji cameras I'm working on include similar functionality.
       | Basically the camera can connect to any AP, then it will find a
       | client. From there the client can do liveview/automatic photo
       | importing/change settings.
        
         | cmrdporcupine wrote:
         | My older Olympus camera does the opposite. Becomes an AP and
         | then the phone app switches WiFi networks and connects that
         | way. It's an interesting approach but the problem is that
         | Android and iOS get up to wonky unpredictable action when
         | dealing with private ad-hoc wifi networks, so the situ becomes
         | unreliable. (this was a vexing problem when I worked on the
         | Google WiFi some years ago). That and the wifi range is
         | terrible, and it's a drain on the camera's batteries.
        
           | petabyt wrote:
           | Yep, that's a pretty with a lot of IoT products in general.
        
         | amadeusw wrote:
         | petabyt I'm interested in this capability, is this available
         | out of the box? What's the client API/contract? Or is Fujihack
         | [0] required? (I just found it on your website.)
         | 
         | [0] https://fujihack.org/
        
       | ge0rg wrote:
       | So I've used the discussion here and the inspiration by
       | @samcat116 to finally publish my review of the Samsung Galaxy NX
       | - half smartphone, half "professional" camera: https://op-
       | co.de/blog/posts/galaxy_nx/
        
       | Bloating wrote:
       | But its much more convenient for me to live stream what I'm
       | eating for lunch using my phone. Please like & subscribe, so I
       | can eat
        
       | bloqs wrote:
       | I think I may be missing the point of a lot of the comments, but
       | could someone explain what this does that a smartphone does not?
        
         | ponorin wrote:
         | They are proper cameras, with proper camera-sized sensors, and
         | some model had interchangable lenses. One of them, for better
         | or for worse, even came with Android. https://op-
         | co.de/blog/posts/galaxy_nx/
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-07-15 23:00 UTC)