[HN Gopher] How do we make remote meetings not suck? (2018)
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       How do we make remote meetings not suck? (2018)
        
       Author : kuahyeow
       Score  : 83 points
       Date   : 2024-07-14 00:52 UTC (22 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (chelseatroy.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (chelseatroy.com)
        
       | forgetfreeman wrote:
       | stop having them and rely largely on email for communications
       | that should in fact be email.
        
         | DiggyJohnson wrote:
         | Okay, this may sound nuts but I think the only issue with your
         | proposal is that it doesn't address the reason that this
         | doesn't happen. Our colleagues do not or do not want to read
         | business communications for the purpose of comprehension for
         | the content of their own work or communication with their
         | colleagues.
         | 
         | I genuinely propose a three strike policy where professional
         | employees are to be fired after three occasions where they
         | demonstrated an inability or unwillingness to read and
         | comprehend important business communications less than two
         | pages or 6 paraphrases in length. This includes emails and
         | internal publications, but not async communication on platforms
         | like Slack, Teams, or non-recorded verbal meetings (digital or
         | otherwise), nor does it include verbal conversations with
         | colleagues in person or otherwise.
         | 
         | I freely admit to wanting a business environment where email
         | communication and content is considered sacred in commercial
         | contexts. Where it's unacceptable to not only be familiar with
         | but understand well the contents of an email that is now the
         | subject of a meeting or otherwise directly important the
         | content of one's work.
         | 
         | I've tried to right this "meeting should be an email" battle
         | but the reality is shocking: _nobody reads anything_ , for the
         | most part, and when they do, they act like they didn't.
         | 
         | Reading compression is a faux pa, better to get the
         | accreditation that comes from an in person discussion.
         | 
         | This is the sort of rant that I'm sure I've run afoul of as
         | well. But I stand by it regardless. The reason that we have
         | meetings instead of emails is incredible simple: people do not
         | read and comprehend emails.
        
           | chrisweekly wrote:
           | > "This includes emails... but not async communication."
           | 
           | Your failure to communicate clearly here is one of the most
           | ironic and (presumably unintentionally) hilarious things I've
           | read in some time.
        
           | crngefest wrote:
           | I ran into the same issue but I'm curious
           | 
           | >people do not read and comprehend emails.
           | 
           | Why do you think that is the case? It seems like a simple
           | thing to do
        
           | shrimp_emoji wrote:
           | Too much email spam from the company, including fake phishing
           | attempts, to take my inbox seriously. It's a noisy channel.
           | 
           | Email is also slow. Instant messaging is where it's at, but
           | most people's reading comprehension and writing are not at
           | the level where that's the only viable medium.
        
             | RHSeeger wrote:
             | Depends entirely on the context. There are plenty of cases
             | where email, _especially_ when it comes to taking the time
             | to sort out your thoughts and then format them nicely, is
             | better than instance messaging.
        
           | ryandrake wrote:
           | > I've tried to right this "meeting should be an email"
           | battle but the reality is shocking: nobody reads anything,
           | for the most part, and when they do, they act like they
           | didn't.
           | 
           | Exactly. "This meeting could have been an E-mail" is only
           | true if people read and respond to their E-mail. I usually
           | will try E-mail first, but if I don't get a response or if
           | the expected action is not taken--I sigh and break out the
           | meeting invite.
        
           | jaggederest wrote:
           | > _nobody reads anything,_ for the most part, and when they
           | do, they act like they didn't.
           | 
           | It's actually even more insidious than a lack of reading
           | comprehension.
           | 
           | It's a lack of retention in memory. People read an email, it
           | blends in with all the other email they read, it lacks
           | salience, it's the metaphorical "in one ear, out the other".
           | Text lacks immediacy so it doesn't get attention, retention,
           | or action.
           | 
           | This is, needless to say, not a solvable problem within any
           | given team, company, or industry.
           | 
           | Edit: The irony of writing this in a HN comment does not
           | elude me.
        
           | arp242 wrote:
           | People not reading emails hasn't really been a problem pretty
           | much anywhere I worked for the last 10 years or more. People
           | not writing them _has_ been a problem though. Maybe this was
           | caused by people not reading them, but I 've always suspected
           | that a lot of people just don't like writing, and/or aren't
           | very good at it. So it's easier for them to do an in-person
           | meeting.
           | 
           | And when no or very few emails get sent, no on really pays
           | attention to them. I haven't even opened the company email in
           | a week because there is never anything interesting there.
           | 
           | I really wish writing would be emphasized more in job
           | interviews. I have seen some that emphasise written
           | communication, but it's relatively rare.
        
             | RHSeeger wrote:
             | > Maybe this was caused by people not reading them, but
             | I've always suspected that a lot of people just don't like
             | writing, and/or aren't very good at it.
             | 
             | Writing an email tends is harder than having a meeting,
             | because you (generally) need to understand the problem to
             | talk about it. This is true of both providing information
             | about the problem and for asking questions about it. Part
             | of writing about something is taking the time to understand
             | it.
             | 
             | It can easily take me 20-30 minutes to write an email about
             | something. But, especially in the case of asking for more
             | information about something, it _also_ results in me having
             | a clearer understanding of the topic; because I needed to
             | identify what questions to ask. However, me spending 30
             | minutes on writing that email means
             | 
             | - I understand the problem better (as noted), AND
             | 
             | - Multiple _other_ people don't spend 15 minutes in a
             | meeting while I solidify my understanding enough to ask the
             | right questions. And that saves a lot more time overall.
             | 
             | That being said, sometimes meetings are the right answer,
             | because there's a gap somewhere and people just don't know
             | what questions to ask; they need to get together and just
             | talk about it.
        
           | forgetfreeman wrote:
           | I feel like unrelated issues are being conflated here? The
           | issue of one on one interpersonal communication should be a
           | solved problem given email, text, phone, video call (one on
           | one video calls don't suffer the same flavor of hideousness
           | inflicted when the headcount starts to grow).
           | 
           | By comparison large headcount meetings are gross sadistic and
           | pointless in person regardless of communications format
           | selected. Either they're intended to let a small number of
           | individuals convey information to a larger group (send a
           | goddamn email already, if you're really fancy video your
           | canned remarks and send a link to the video in the email), or
           | they're intended to elicit some kind of exchange among a
           | large group, at which point you end up with an hour and a
           | half of nothing of substance being accomplished while
           | some/most/all of the meeting participants are sitting there
           | fighting their soul's urge to simply vacate their body on the
           | spot. Then there's the ever-popular multi-departmental
           | standup meeting, in which a bunch of people convey pointless
           | detail at length about shit that is wildly irrelevant to the
           | jobs of most of the other attendees to no obvious purpose.
           | 
           | Full Disclosure: I intentionally ignore my email under the
           | assumption that if it's really important someone will pick up
           | a phone and call.
        
         | nlawalker wrote:
         | For people who are good readers and writers of email, there's a
         | winning strategy that gives everyone what they want.
         | 
         | On the receiving side: _information-delivery presentations are
         | async communications_ , it's just that historical precedent
         | demands that everyone get a calendar invite to the live taping.
         | Not everyone wants to write and send email, and with the
         | options for consuming recorded content now, that's fine. You
         | can read their slides, watch their presentation at 2x, fly
         | through the transcript, read the AI summary, etc. on your own
         | time.
         | 
         | On the sending side: next time you write a really great email,
         | don't send it. Send a meeting invite so people can watch live
         | while you record yourself _reading it to the camera_ while
         | displaying slides with a bullet-point summary you can have
         | ChatGPT generate for you. Get good at it and you 'll quickly
         | get a reputation for being a great communicator - people will
         | genuinely be impressed at how prepared you are and how clear
         | your thinking is.
        
       | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
       | Every meeting starts with an agenda and ends with minutes or
       | don't bother showing up
       | 
       | Or admit that their de facto purpose is to socialize on company
       | time, which is something that should be done but is hard to
       | quantify
        
       | stavros wrote:
       | This article keeps talking about "the caucus problem", but never
       | actually defines it. I couldn't follow the post at all because
       | every problem kept ending with "but this isn't the real problem,
       | the caucus problem is".
        
         | crngefest wrote:
         | Same.
         | 
         | I searched a bit online but it doesn't seem to be a well
         | established term
        
         | goldfishgold wrote:
         | A caucus is defined and discussed in the previous post: "A
         | caucus (and specifically an unmoderated caucus) is a type of
         | meeting with no rules about who talks in what order or for how
         | long."
         | 
         | Agreed the post is confusing and could have used a summary of
         | the preceding piece to be intelligible.
         | 
         | https://chelseatroy.com/2018/03/29/why-do-remote-meetings-su...
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | That clarifies things, thank you!
        
         | eyelidlessness wrote:
         | For everyone else who felt similarly, the explanation is in the
         | previous post (linked near the top of the intro). I also found
         | this confusing because the whole intro felt like it was
         | building up to define the concept and explain why it's a (the)
         | problem. I even googled the term, thinking it may be some term
         | of art I'm just not familiar with. Then I looked back at the
         | intro again, and inferred that it must be pointing back into
         | the post series... just conveying that poorly.
        
       | sublinear wrote:
       | > So the thing is, human social relationships demand structure.
       | 
       | This is the part I agree with the most. I'm not sure about the
       | rest.
       | 
       | I can only speak from the perspective of a software engineer.
       | Many meetings, especially daily standups, do not prioritize and
       | filter out user stories and tasks causing them to take way too
       | long. People zone out making the meetings less effective. It's
       | basically weaponized on some projects especially when the
       | management doesn't have a clue what's going on. It enables the
       | blame game e.g. "well why didn't you say something during the
       | meeting?"
       | 
       | It's usually pretty clear what should be discussed, but it's rare
       | to see a project manager who looks at the activity stream on Jira
       | or equivalent. There's usually a huge disconnect between
       | management and dev teams in general, even on a relatively "well
       | run" project where everything goes as planned with minimal
       | friction. Devs wind up picking up a lot of slack and just have
       | their own informal meetings amongst themselves to remedy it.
       | 
       | This is terrible long term. Every project I've ever been on
       | inevitably hits a snag and all this unravels into management
       | going into freak out mode when they realize how big these
       | communication gaps have become.
        
       | gonzo41 wrote:
       | Make them shorter and more focused.
        
       | wvenable wrote:
       | In our organization, remote meetings don't suck. It more or less
       | just happened organically because we are a fairly flat
       | organization but in a traditional industry.
       | 
       | Mostly no cameras. I don't even own a webcam.
       | 
       | A meeting is called for a reason (even if it's recurring). We
       | have no "this is the morning meeting" kind of meetings.
       | 
       | There a single person in charge of the meeting. This is most
       | often the person who wants to get resolved the thing the meeting
       | is about. This isn't enforced it's just a natural consequence of
       | someone booking a meeting.
       | 
       | Most meetings are between 2-5 people. Large recurring meetings
       | are maybe max 12-15 people. In the large meeting, there is a
       | rough agenda and everyone speaks to their part of the agenda in
       | turn. Anyone can speak up if they have something relevant to add
       | but otherwise they are muted. This is usually when I get my
       | laundry folded.
        
         | jaggederest wrote:
         | Very close to my own rules for meetings.
         | 
         | - Meetings must have a purpose. (to echo you above)
         | 
         | - The meeting must have a result, some sort of action or next
         | step. Only one.
         | 
         | - When the meeting has created a result to address the purpose,
         | the meeting is over.
         | 
         | - Someone runs the meeting. They decide when the result has
         | been achieved. (to echo you above)
         | 
         | - Someone (explicitly not the meeting runner) takes notes,
         | action items, etc, and records the purpose and result.
         | 
         | - The rule is, you invite people who are required to achieve
         | the result. Other people, marked as optional, may attend if
         | they feel they are necessary. Otherwise, optional attendance
         | defaults to not attending.
         | 
         | - No recurring meetings, no "informational updates", those we
         | call something else. A hangout. A discussion. A presentation.
        
         | bruce511 wrote:
         | Typically I leave my camera off during meetings. (Well, the
         | boring ones anyway.)
         | 
         | Which means I just keep on working during the meeting listening
         | with half an ear.
         | 
         | This is especially applicable to reoccurring meetings where the
         | manager is talking to the team, getting progress reports,
         | working through the jira list and so on.
         | 
         | This actually makes for a really productive meeting. I can fill
         | the dead time with admin tasks, but I'm also somewhat aware of
         | what else is happening. Last month it became clear one team
         | member was struggling (for days) trying to do something outside
         | their experience. I offered to make an example, and got him
         | onto the right track.
         | 
         | It's taken a long time to get used to these regular progress
         | meetings (and I imagine pre-covid they were done in person and
         | insanely frustrating) but now I gave the rhythm of them I just
         | keep working.
         | 
         | One tip I noticed, if Roger should comment on what I'm about to
         | say then say "hey roger" at the start of the piece not " what
         | do you think roger" at the end. :)
        
           | r00fus wrote:
           | > One tip I noticed, if Roger should comment on what I'm
           | about to say then say "hey roger" at the start of the piece
           | not " what do you think roger" at the end. :)
           | 
           | I do this without thinking. I even add some fluff or delay
           | between the "hey roger" so that Roger has time to context-
           | switch before I ask the question because you know everyone is
           | multitasking during these meetings.
        
           | lordnacho wrote:
           | > Which means I just keep on working during the meeting
           | listening with half an ear.
           | 
           | I think this might be WHY remote meetings work so well when
           | they work.
           | 
           | They aren't meetings like a board room meeting. They are like
           | sitting in a room with colleagues and occasionally
           | communicating.
           | 
           | If everyone has to pay attention, the meeting had better be
           | worth n x salary x hours.
           | 
           | If you can sort of be there and sort of not, it costs very
           | little.
        
         | rurp wrote:
         | > Mostly no cameras.
         | 
         | It's interesting to hear this from others. Years ago I would
         | have expected that camera-on meetings would be more productive
         | on average, but my own experience is the opposite. I have only
         | worked at a few remote companies but the places where cameras
         | mostly weren't used had far far less wasted meeting time.
        
           | notnaut wrote:
           | David Foster Wallace was clever in his forethought here,
           | though the reasons video calls have largely fallen out of
           | favor in the real world may be different.
           | 
           | "Within like 16 months or 5 sales quarters, the tumescent
           | demand curve collapsed like a kicked tent, so that by the
           | Year of the Depend Adult Undergarment, fewer than 10 percent
           | of all private telephone communications utilized any video
           | image fiber data transfers ... the average US phone user
           | deciding that s/he actually preferred the retrograde old low-
           | tech Bell-era voice-only phone interface after all. ...
           | Audio-only phone conversations allowed you to presume that
           | the person on the other end was paying complete attention to
           | you while also permitting you not to have to pay anything
           | even close to complete attention to her ... video telephony
           | rendered the fantasy insupportable."
        
       | throw_that_away wrote:
       | hint: It's the company that sucks not the meeting :/
        
       | goldfishgold wrote:
       | (2018)
        
       | agentultra wrote:
       | > if the goal is instead to deliver info to the attendees, your
       | meeting should be an email
       | 
       | If we just stuck to this rule I would have hours of more time to
       | do actual work.
       | 
       | So many "meetings," are listening to folks um-and-ah their way
       | through their slides. They read the exact text they wrote.
       | Slowly. It's painful.
       | 
       | Just send an email.
       | 
       | If this happens in recurring meetings, make an email digest.
        
         | cpeterso wrote:
         | The flip side of "this meeting should have been an email" is
         | that people need to read their email. I think Slack, always on
         | and always interrupting, has eroded thoughtful email habits.
        
         | bravetraveler wrote:
         | As I grow older, and perhaps comfortable in my skin/being
         | fired/whatever, I will actually just ask for the document to be
         | shared before leaving the meeting in these cases
        
       | cyrnel wrote:
       | I appreciate the attempt to bring structure to meetings. I agree
       | structure is necessary, but I feel like the article is committing
       | the same sin that it decries: "rewarding A but hoping for B"
       | 
       | If you blindly rebalance meetings based on "caucus score", you'll
       | get less ideas from the loud people and more ideas from the quiet
       | people ("A"). You won't necessarily get better ideas overall
       | ("B").
       | 
       | IMO, the "floor" should be given primarily to people with a track
       | record of clearly and concisely expressing novel and good ideas,
       | no matter how loud or quiet those people are. Figuring out who
       | those people are is hard and probably can't be nicely described
       | in a blog post.
       | 
       | No one has a meaningful contribution for every topic, and most
       | people don't have the self-awareness to know whether their
       | contribution is meaningful or not. Any good meeting structure has
       | to be able to handle that common situation in a safe and healthy
       | way.
        
       | smelendez wrote:
       | The main issue that this gets at is that meeting time is a
       | valuable company resource and a contentious resource for
       | employees and should be managed as such.
       | 
       | People shouldn't feel free to chime in with half-baked ideas in
       | meetings or call meetings willy-nilly any more than they would
       | play horseshoes with equipment from the supply closet, use the
       | company credit card for grocery shopping, or call in sick to play
       | golf.
       | 
       | What appropriate policies look like probably do vary by company
       | and team but the policy shouldn't just be that anyone with access
       | to the calendar software can call a meeting or that anyone in the
       | meeting can speak at any time.
        
         | A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
         | I think I agree. And this may be why there is so much variance.
         | What worked with one team, vendor, group, might not work well
         | with another. I am just about end a very unpleasant project
         | about to go-live and has been something of a shitshow from the
         | beginning. The one recurring theme throughout that we had no
         | one person in charge, who could (edit: nicer phrasing ) help
         | guide the conversation. Post-mortem will not be fun for anyone.
         | 
         | The lack of structure can be a benefit; it can work, but not
         | when the project requires close coordination. On the other
         | hand, stupid policies can easily hamstring PMs.
        
         | makeitdouble wrote:
         | > call in sick to play golf
         | 
         | If someone really doesn't want to work, I think from the
         | employer's perspective it doesn't make a difference. We could
         | argue physical and mental inconveniences could be seen the
         | same. I guess there will be places were there's a legal split
         | between the two kinds, but I kinda wish there wasn't.
         | 
         | (I'm assuming there's a finite number of days either way)
        
       | skywhopper wrote:
       | Latency is the killer for me. Both with video calls and even just
       | with cell phone calls. Old school phone calls could be
       | spontaneous and collaborative almost as good as meeting in
       | person, because latency was as close to zero as possible and you
       | could properly hear both people talking at the same time. But the
       | delays and lack of good audio mixing in cell and video-call tech
       | mean it's impossible to use in the same way. Given the
       | fundamental differences, then, the better solution is to use
       | video calls only for highly structured meetings and to use other
       | tools like chat and email (gasp) for remote collaboration.
        
         | stavros wrote:
         | VoIP phones have excellent latency nowadays, much better than a
         | call. It's possible to have a normal conversation on them.
        
           | kkfx wrote:
           | It's not much the phone but the network. How many insist
           | using craptops with crappy softphone webapps connected via
           | crappy wifi because they think a damn desktop with a normal
           | cat6 to the router is "an old thing"? How many even try to
           | attend certain meetings on the go on crappy mobile macrobugs
           | AKA smartphones on mobile networks?
        
             | dbalatero wrote:
             | I think a laptop with cat6 would be sufficient.
        
       | dhosek wrote:
       | It seems to me that the problem isn't that remote meetings suck
       | but that meetings suck. My writing group meets remotely because
       | (a) covid and (2) one of the members moved to Ohio from Chicago.
       | We manage not to have the issues about people interrupting etc.,
       | likely because we (a) care about what we're doing and (2)
       | actually that caring about what we're doing really covers it. We
       | do have structure in that we're workshopping 2-3 stories per
       | session and we have a four-part agenda for each story (aboutness,
       | likes, suggestions, questions). Everybody has done the necessary
       | homework before the meeting (in this case read the stories and
       | written up their notes), but the structure means that we avoid a
       | common workshop trap of everybody just reading their notes to the
       | group and since you know your notes will go to the writer, you
       | don't need to feel obligated to say everything you've written
       | down.
       | 
       | Thinking about this, I can see pretty clearly how this could be
       | translated into work meetings pretty easily and fits with a lot
       | of the other commentary here.
       | 
       | But bottom line, either the meetings will suck or they won't and
       | what matters is not whether they're in-person or remote but how
       | they're run.
        
         | j16sdiz wrote:
         | > ... (a) covid and (2) one ...
         | 
         | > ... because we (a) ... and (2) actually
         | 
         | Why are you (consistently) follow "(a)" with "(2)"? Is this an
         | AI thing?
        
           | tired-turtle wrote:
           | I suspect to emphasize enumeration so readers don't
           | incorrectly parse the sentence. But the text would be even
           | clearer had these speech patterns been omitted altogether.
        
             | WesolyKubeczek wrote:
             | I'm way more irked by (2) following (a). It's (a), (b),
             | (c), or (1), (2), (3), or (a), (b), (v), but for chrissake,
             | don't mix the styles.
        
               | dhosek wrote:
               | Hey, keep complaining and I'll give you (iii), (Si ),
               | (5), (6), (7), (8) and ().
        
               | refulgentis wrote:
               | Not in this thread yet, not talking down to you,
               | apologies if tone comes across that way: jokes aside,
               | noticed you're OP, and I'm very curious what the intent
               | was here.
        
           | bowsamic wrote:
           | I think it's a quirky thing
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | (2018)
       | 
       | Related from earlier:
       | 
       |  _Why do remote meetings suck so much?_
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40953914
        
       | kjkjadksj wrote:
       | The closer meetings are to a conversation with a couple people,
       | the better. No one likes the one presenting to twenty slog. That
       | sort of meeting always could have been an email because there
       | isn't enough time for everyone to have meaningful back and forth
       | conversation or give good feedback.
        
       | anotheryou wrote:
       | purely technical, but lower latency (even at the cost of
       | crackles), make everyone have a good mic, emulated spacial audio.
       | 
       | I think these things would help so so much. I wonder if there is
       | any research on the impact of these.
        
         | AnthonBerg wrote:
         | Emphatically agreed.
         | 
         | I'm sure there are some research results on how high-quality
         | audio improves meetings - or conversely, how degraded audio
         | degrades communications.
         | 
         | Those research results might not be trivially easy to find
         | however. And I'm sure there's been less of this kind of
         | research than we'd like.
         | 
         | However! I'm fairly sure that a pretty convincing picture can
         | be assembled through looking at things from different fields of
         | study.
         | 
         | As far as I know, the brain processes any incoming signals.
         | There's all sorts of filtering going on to extract the
         | meaningful signal. I'm fairly certain that degraded input costs
         | much more brain processing than clear input, probably
         | measurable by MRI or fatigue tests or calorie consumption, if
         | not directly by performance testing on accuracy or response
         | time.
         | 
         | I'm also curious if the field that studies turn-taking in human
         | speech communications doesn't have something to say about
         | unnatural latency between speakers. Cognitive efficiency and
         | communications efficiency are surely measurable there.
         | Psychoacoustic neuropsychology? idk.
         | 
         | And then I wonder if the entertainment market hasn't done some
         | research on high-quality reproduction in, say, cinemas? Almost
         | certainly the investment into elaborate audio/video
         | reproduction equipment is data-driven, backed by measurement of
         | audience immersion.
         | 
         | Probably there's something on high-precision work like remote
         | surgery too.
         | 
         | It's all valid, it's all applicable.
         | 
         | The other side of the argument is that humans tend to be
         | argumentative, judgemental, dismissive, and unaware of the
         | extensive refinement and reshaping of sensory inputs that goes
         | on in their heads. So they'll tend to dismiss inquiries into
         | this, in my experience. It has to be tediously crafted as a
         | suitably high-status pursuit but not too high.
        
           | anotheryou wrote:
           | one interesting part to me is: I don't think we need 3D VR.
           | Movies, even on a small screen can be totally immersive.
        
       | knappe wrote:
       | This article may be 6 years old, but it jives with my experiences
       | having worked remotely for a variety of companies and in a mix of
       | remote/onsite organizations for 11 years. In fact, the moderation
       | suggestion is exactly how I've solved the caucus problem without
       | actually being able to name the problem or the solution. This
       | article is going to be my go to for referencing how meetings
       | ought to be run and why.
       | 
       | The only other article that really feels like it nails a nagging
       | problem that I've never been able to articulate but stumbled
       | across often is "Why developers don't water the plants"
       | https://yorkesoftware.com/2017/05/03/why-dont-developers-wat...
        
       | peterbozso wrote:
       | Answering the title: like we do at GitLab.
       | https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/culture/all-rem...
        
         | el_duderino_ wrote:
         | Is working with GitLab as nice as it sounds? Every time I read
         | the employee documentation I get the feeling working there
         | would be a great experience.
        
       | sriram_malhar wrote:
       | Fully agree with the article's focus on proper meeting
       | discipline.
       | 
       | This can be coupled with Edward Tufte's suggestions on how to
       | present at a meeting. To summarize, he says that there is no
       | point sending a presentation in advance .. most will not read it
       | anyway. Instead of a presentation, write about 5-6 six pages of
       | prose and hand them out at the beginning of the meeting. Every
       | one will scan the document in their own ways and write up
       | questions. After 20 minutes or so, start discussing the document.
       | This way, the presenter doesn't have to drone on about things
       | that everyone knows, and one can focus on real questions.
       | 
       | https://www.edwardtufte.com/files/Consume_Produce_14_15.pdf
        
         | xingped wrote:
         | Haha, you say that, but from years of personal experience with
         | this meeting style, what really happens is you end up getting a
         | lot of questions which are clearly answered further up/down in
         | the document or questions which are completely pointless or
         | nonsensical to ask but people like to just be heard and make
         | themselves look good for having something to say.
        
           | sriram_malhar wrote:
           | I hear you, which is where one needs a no-nonsense moderator
           | who will say "that has been answered on page 1", and who has
           | the authority to shut down the high caucus noisy people
        
         | spencerchubb wrote:
         | To my knowledge, the 6-pager was popularized by Bezos. It
         | requires the document to be _very_ well written, or else the
         | 6-pager will be wasting the readers ' time. It also requires
         | strong reading comprehension, which frankly, most employees do
         | not. It works well for Amazon execs because they are all sharp
        
       | kkfx wrote:
       | I suspect that most people have issue on mere work tools, they do
       | know by names tools from another era, while they never really
       | used them, but they do not know the modern tools, so they create
       | in their own minds strange hybrids between the old tools they
       | never used and the new one.
       | 
       | In the past was common having meetings in a physical room,
       | because the office was a needed tool due to paper-based
       | workflows, and since attending demand certain time not only to
       | meet but also to prepare the meeting, going to the right place
       | and so on they was organized in certain formats. Things are, or
       | should and must be different, but most fails to understand how to
       | use new tools properly.
       | 
       | In the modern connected world attending a meeting is damn cheap,
       | but we also have other tools to collaborate and depending on the
       | task such other tools are better. Having searchable text trails,
       | developing certain topics slowly a message at a time, having few
       | "spontaneous" meetings between only few, than openly discussing
       | something often is much better. But you should know modern tools
       | and all must use them seriously.
        
       | gumby wrote:
       | We have a system that works well for our small founding team.
       | 
       | Normally I am pretty hardcore that meetings need an agenda (can
       | be loose) and intended outcome _when the meeting invitation is
       | sent out_ , or else I don't attend.
       | 
       | BUT our small founding team has an exception: we have a daily,
       | morning, remote, agendaless meeting. It's the opposite of a
       | standup: you can talk about anything. Sometimes it's things that
       | have fallen through the cracks; I can't help doing standupy
       | things myself ("this is what I'm doing today in 20 seconds" but
       | that's just me;) we also hear that so and so's daughter just got
       | engaged, someone else will be busy coz their spouse will be
       | having a procedure today and they want to drop them off/get them
       | from the hospital, etc. it's to provide the "water cooler"
       | experience of in the office. Important things get decided too.
       | And we skip sometimes, perhaps one day every other week, since
       | it's like a bus and will come around tomorrow again.
       | 
       | We do overlap in person at times in the lab but they aren't
       | awkward because we all have a common social context.
       | 
       | It won't scale as we grow, unfortunately.
        
         | soneca wrote:
         | We have that habit in the small company I work too, and it's
         | great. It does not scale indeed, and it only works if, outside
         | of those, you only have very few meetings, but I enjoy having
         | this more humane and organic connection with my coworkers
        
       | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
       | I just have a policy of as few meetings (remote or FTF), as
       | possible. No repeating, scheduled ones. All meetings should be
       | _ad hoc_ (so no daily standups or weekly roundups).
       | 
       | As I worked for a Japanese company, these ideas found stony soil,
       | but now that I'm on my own, I try to keep this policy.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | I agree completely. If a meeting is being held so that one
         | person can present information to the group, that can be an
         | email.
         | 
         | If a meeting is held so each person can update a leader with
         | his/her status, those updates can also be emails. If the whole
         | group needs to see those updates, it can be a wiki or a shared
         | document.
         | 
         | A meeting should only be called when that group of people needs
         | to discuss a topic together and reach a consensus or make a
         | decision. If it's just for communicating information, there are
         | better, asynchronous alternatives.
        
       | j45 wrote:
       | Better meeting skills in person help make remote meetings better.
       | 
       | Lots of great tips in the comments, for me it's making sure
       | meetings don't become a timepass.
       | 
       | Meeting cadence whtn the meetings are new is important. Often
       | eaiser to have a regular meeting and a mini check in the frist
       | while until things are going.
       | 
       | Ongoing Cadence is important, too often or too little time to get
       | things done can be hindrance.
       | 
       | Days of week can make a difference too. Talk Tuesday morning and
       | Thursday afternoon to leave time for people to start dealing with
       | their week, and also on Thursdays to have enough time to finish
       | something for Friday.
       | 
       | The later in the week a meeting is, the less that can be done
       | about it that week and it can perpetually push into the next
       | week.
       | 
       | Group note taking and agenda - there are neat meeting management
       | apps out there that make things more interactive like carrying
       | forward agenda items automatically, sending out the agenda for
       | you in advance, etc.
       | 
       | Note taking - This has become easier with AI, but having someone
       | still send them out is great. Depending on whether management
       | wants, having an out line of people's tasks documented to them
       | can make it easier, but everyone should be taking notes to not
       | get dependent on this. If this can be available often meetings
       | can be shorter.
       | 
       | Agendas and concise materials before meeting- can help people
       | catch up and prepare to help make sure the meeting is about
       | decisions and discussions in support of a discussion, and not
       | discussion for the sake of doing the work on the meeting itself.
       | 
       | Juniors first - one for the best things Ive ever seen is having
       | juniors offer their input and thoughts first, which can be
       | followed up outside the meeting with ongoing mentorship with
       | seniors. it can be as simple as this is what I have learned to
       | understand about this, and the rest of the team learns that they
       | can rely on this person more.
       | 
       | From a tech side, something novel and fresh every so often can
       | help. Learn to use Zoom/Teams/Mmmhmm and it keeps it visually
       | interesting and easy to pass around updates.
        
       | dusted wrote:
       | "The only winning move is not to play."
        
       | backtoyoujim wrote:
       | "if we do online meetings all of you can work from home"
       | 
       | any other questions ?
        
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