[HN Gopher] Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech t...
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Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent
Author : WWWMMMWWW
Score : 27 points
Date : 2024-07-10 19:40 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.tradearabia.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.tradearabia.com)
| alephnerd wrote:
| Pretty much. Salaries across Europe are extremely low compared to
| similar roles at a similar caliber abroad.
| fwsgonzo wrote:
| Hard to disagree, but have you seen abroad? Seems like outside
| Europe you're at a constant one health crisis away from
| homelessness. Is that even an exaggeration at this point?
|
| https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg
| decafninja wrote:
| Frankly speaking, European healthcare does not seem that
| attractive to me versus decent to good employer backed
| American insurance. I'd rather have a (often significantly)
| bigger US salary.
|
| If there is a healthcare system that I'm envious of, it's
| those of some East Asian countries.
|
| I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical
| tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up
| being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also
| massively faster and more efficient to get treatment.
|
| Heck, I don't know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans
| that make the same trip too.
| cooolbear wrote:
| Aside from the usury of US healthcare, even with insurance
| from your employer, dealing with the healthcare in Canada
| is a dream to the US. You might have to wait to see a
| doctor (most people probably still have to wait in the US
| if you're lucky enough to get treatment), but there's
| essentially no fight with layers and layers of occult
| insurance for anything you get a referral from a doctor
| for. No surprise or hidden 'networks' to speak of. I think
| that people who are fine with US healthcare don't really
| realize how incredibly inefficient and harmful it is to be
| so uncertain about whether or not insurance will cover your
| treatment.
| floxy wrote:
| Is there a way to find out which CGRP medications for
| migraines are covered by which provincial health plans?
| Seems like a few of them are available if you have
| private insurance. Or if you could pay the fairly steep
| costs out of pocket.
| constantcrying wrote:
| I think you are completely delusional about the US. They have
| healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their
| paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary.
|
| >homelessness
|
| In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far
| bigger homelessness problem than the US.
| Zyten wrote:
| I agree that salary is not necessarily the highest in the EU.
| When looking at job offerings outside my current job, it
| sometimes feels like I would actually get less salary than I
| currently do. However, my current job has almost no chance of
| promotion. In addition, no permanent contract which will force me
| to switch jobs in a couple of years as they cannot provide fixed-
| term contracts due to law anymore.
| mkl95 wrote:
| EU salaries have been risible for years. My employer will give
| you a 3% raise every couple of years if you are lucky. When
| people leave management's answer is we must keep hiring.
| HillRat wrote:
| The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the
| Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law
| authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social
| structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you
| haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't
| recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those
| waters.
| ls612 wrote:
| I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff
| that won't touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame?
| Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.
| NomDePlum wrote:
| Depends on your circumstances.
|
| My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have
| moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I
| wouldn't ever work there.
|
| 1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant
| worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on
| the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as
| they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened
| her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on
| the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident
| wouldn't have happened.
|
| 2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either
| couple both died they would immediately take their children
| out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the
| state, which is almost impossible to reverse.
|
| Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and
| consequences are if anything more significant.
| blackbear_ wrote:
| Using salaries in Italy, Spain, and Hungary as means of
| comparison and pretending they are be representative of the
| "European market" reeks of dishonesty. Salaries in Germany,
| France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher
| than those mentioned in the article. This is certainly a factor
| for migration within Europe
| culopatin wrote:
| And yet half of the ones in the US. At least based on when I
| got some offers last year when I was considering moving to
| Europe
| cherryteastain wrote:
| London is competitive with tier 2 US cities (i.e. not
| SF/NYC/Seattle). Switzerland is competitive even with Tier 1
| US cities. COL and taxes are higher though.
| culopatin wrote:
| So it's not competitive if taxes are higher and COL is
| higher. What one cares about is the final income in pocket
| and purchasing power. I don't really care if my salary says
| "1 million" if I keep 50k of that, I only care about the
| final number unless there is some tax loophole one can
| exercise like pre tax deductions, but still...
| theodric wrote:
| I don't buy that COL is significantly higher unless
| you're firehosing money everywhere for the hell of it.
| You _can_ spend scads of money, but you 're not obligated
| to. I lived there for five years, and left in December.
| My grocery bill was the same as it is now in Ireland (but
| still less than my parents pay in Chicagoland) and while
| I don't pay rent in Ireland, a friend just got a "steal"
| on an apartment @ EUR2500/mo in outer Dublin, while I was
| paying CHF 2250 for a 3-storey townhouse with private
| parking in outer Zurich. Road tax is similar. Health
| insurance more in CH, but we're talking 6k/yr vs 2.4k.
| And income tax was so low in CH that the foreign tax
| credit didn't do much for me, and I ended up having to
| cut a check to the IRS for 5 figures every year.
| Switzerland is truly exceptional, and you can make crazy
| money there.
| poincaredisk wrote:
| What are you saving for? I keep hearing people in the US earn
| much more, and it's certainly true in absolute terms, but...
| I live in a poorer (but not poor, just not germany/france) EU
| country, with a relatively good but not great salary. I earn
| way more than I need - I can afford the apartment I want
| (recently moved to a bigger one due to becoming a parent), I
| know medical bills won't bankrupt me in case of emergency, I
| can afford things I want (computers, clothes, eating out,
| sport equipment, car). Despite not really trying I still save
| a lot of money.
|
| At the same time, I hear about IT people living in an
| American metropoly, earning much more than I do, and
| supposedly struggling with bills. I wonder if the cost of
| living differences are that huge, or maybe I just have low
| standards, or is it something different altogether.
| constantcrying wrote:
| Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US?
| Certainly if I had any inclination to move my target would be the
| US, high salaries, low taxes, wide range of companies, can choose
| climate/geography and even political leaning of area, etc.
|
| I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever
| been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of
| completely incoherent architecture, even culturally it seem to
| have just adopted the worst consumerism of the west and
| transplanted it into their native culture. I am not sure what
| money could even compell me to live there.
| beaglesss wrote:
| Dubai has far looser work visa and banking laws. And low
| taxation. Infrastructure may not be as cheap but it is
| accessible.
|
| If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a
| lot more approachable from both company owner and employee
| perspective.
| constantcrying wrote:
| >If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might
| be a lot more approachable from both company owner and
| employee perspective.
|
| Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live
| the US is _definitely_ my preferred choice.
| beaglesss wrote:
| Makes perfect sense. It's a different target. In terms of
| being able to start a business up and bring people in from
| about anywhere, get them working and some semi-modern
| infrastructure with not a ton of regulatory and immigration
| hassle though I struggle to think of an easier place to do
| it.
|
| There are definitely a fair number of EU citizens
| exploiting this and UAE tax residency.
| devwastaken wrote:
| Exodus to where? U.S. isn't hiring, and even when they are you're
| living in broken cities in one of the most corrupt capital
| markets in the world. Whatever job you get a visa for is
| indentured servitude.
|
| The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because
| living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment
| more than pays for itself.
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