[HN Gopher] Do Skis Get Blunt?
___________________________________________________________________
Do Skis Get Blunt?
Author : luu
Score : 238 points
Date : 2024-07-08 05:04 UTC (17 hours ago)
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| troupo wrote:
| Yes, the edge does get blunt. And you can notice it in close up
| photos. However, does it get blunt enough to affect performance?
|
| After all, it's not like a knife trying to cut through a piece of
| meat
| ReleaseCandidat wrote:
| > does it get blunt enough to affect performance
|
| Edges matter on ice. And yes, the difference is noticable (if
| the edga has been blunt "enough").
| vlovich123 wrote:
| How frequently do you need to tune? I usually only tune at
| the beginning of each season. Does tuning also prolong the
| longevity of the board? This article doesn't seem to address
| that.
| swader999 wrote:
| Filing edges and base grinding cuts material away so it
| shortens the life. Not a huge concern though. Racers
| typically wax and tune edges every 10-20 runs.
|
| Recreationally, if you are on a narrow groomer type ski on
| icy runs, every few days is great and will help you enjoy
| and improve faster. Well fitted ski boots are more critical
| though.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| I do edges every day (usually just a few passes with a fine
| stone and a light deburring with gummy stone), base wax as
| required by the conditions.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes, this kind of maintenance is quick to do and a best
| practice once you've setup the angles. Then you hit a
| rock and cry.
| Xylakant wrote:
| On hard packed snow and ice, the difference is pretty stark. On
| softer snow or powder, the difference is substantially less
| noticeable.
| 0wis wrote:
| As the author said, in icy conditions it changes the day from
| scary to fun
| tw04 wrote:
| Try taking a slice out of a block of ice with a butter knife.
| Try again with a sharp butchers blade.
|
| The difference is quite pronounced.
| creato wrote:
| The question is whether this is a good model for an actual
| ski on ice. What you describe might be a good model for an
| absolutely perfect carve, but that basically never happens in
| reality. When it does, it's on softer snow where the tuned
| corner of the edge is a negligible part of the overall
| interaction with the snow.
|
| I agree with the quoted skier in the post, tuning skis
| doesn't matter. I am someone who puts 400+ days on one pair
| of skis before replacing them, I ski pretty rough terrain and
| hit my share of rocks, I've gotten maybe 3 ski tuneups in my
| life, I couldn't tell the difference after any of them. The
| only things I did to care for them was to store them dry and
| wax them once per season.
| djtango wrote:
| Other people are reporting that they can feel it with ice.
| Do you ski much on ice?
| creato wrote:
| I've certainly skied ice and all kinds of crust.
|
| In my experience true ice isn't that bad in terms of
| grip, it's rarely so smooth that edges can't easily grip
| on surface imperfections. It's not fun to ski because
| it's very high impact.
|
| I think what most people talk about as icy and slippery
| that seems to form on skied off groomers is actually some
| kind of crust that is hard to get edge hold in because
| the snow is somehow very firm but not well bonded to
| itself either, so what little edge penetration you get
| just scrapes off easily and doesn't support the ski. When
| I try to picture what is going on in such snow, edge
| sharpness doesn't matter, you might penetrate marginally
| deeper but that just means you're scraping marginally
| more snow off.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Yeah the East Coast is often nothing but the base ice
| pack with some snow on top to make it more slippery.
| jval43 wrote:
| It doesn't just affect performance, blunt edges make skiing
| down icy patches impossible. The effect is so pronounced that
| if you do enough skiing in a day you'll notice a difference
| even at the end of that day.
|
| The effect of a newly sharpened ski is noticeable immediately
| even if you're an absolute beginner. Even moreso if you're on a
| snowboard.
|
| Source: 30 years of skiing and snowboarding.
| huskdigselv wrote:
| I have been an Austrian trained ski instructor since 2012 and I
| can tell you that a sharp ski is essential if you want to have
| carve in any conditions below where the snow isn't slushing or
| soft. I.e. any run that is either early day, windblown, mid-
| season (generally colder) or shadow side.
|
| HOWEVER 99% of the skiers on a mountain (and yes I mean 99%) do
| not actually ski on their edges, they do skidded turns
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hioJ4ThJA). And the same 99%
| will typically just slide off of hard and icy parts of a slope
| as they aren't comfortably riding their edge. To these people
| sharp edges matter, but less than to the few who successfully
| carve.
|
| But if you are within that 1% of skiers that do ski mostly on
| the edge, then a sharp edge is extremely important; you see
| true carving technique is a delicate skill:
|
| In order to carve properly you need to need to get your skis in
| a steep angle with the snow, which means you need to get your
| feet in a steep angle, which can only be maintained if you move
| your center of gravity into a position that isn't above your
| feet. Which effectively means your body is in a position that
| is out of balance. Similarly to how sprinting essentially is
| just leaning forwards and playing "catch up" with our legs,
| carving technique tries to do the same. Exception being that we
| use the rhythmical centripetal forces of turns and the
| resistance of the snow to create the balancing force (https://d
| 3t7modobimpp4.cloudfront.net/uploads/_1200xAUTO_fit...).
|
| And this is why edges matter; because if the centripetal force
| provided from the carving turn isn't generated because the skis
| blunt edges cause them to slip, then instead of generating
| movement towards the skiers body (reestablishing balance), the
| skis will drift away from the skiers body (removing balance)
| resulting in poor turns if not slipping down onto ones hip.
|
| TL;DR: Very good skiers NEED sharp edges to ski well. Most
| skiers will be fine. (As a matter of fact I think 99% of all
| skiers will do just fine on ANY ski, and make more significant
| improvement from 2 days of ski school than any equipment
| upgrade or tuning that money can buy).
| swader999 wrote:
| I aggre with this and boots are 90 percent the secret to
| progress.
|
| You could teach a beginner how to carve on a very flat slope
| though. The 99 percent that slide are just on too steep of a
| slope for their carving ability. Which is fine by the way.
| It's fun to go down steeper runs, even if you arent carving.
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| >and yes I mean 99%
|
| In which country? I thought carving was relatively popular
| with locals in the Alps (Switzerland, Austria, etc). At least
| it looks like that's what they're doing to me, but maybe they
| still do it wrong.
| _huayra_ wrote:
| My rule of thumb is to get the edges tuned once a season (I clock
| ~40 days), usually after the last of the rocks is covered up by
| the initial snow. If one skis less than that, it's possible to
| get away with every other season, but keep a gummy stone to
| deburr the edges as needed.
|
| If anyone has any methods to reliably grind edges at home, I'd be
| interested. I have one of the edge tools and a bunch of files,
| but I basically destroyed a pair of skis (thankfully an old
| crummy pair, put to new use as part of an adirondack chair built
| from my busted skis) when trying to get it right. Considering a
| local shop will do it for $40 / pair, that seems like a better
| use of my time. Still, I've got that DIY itch to scratch about
| this and haven't seemed to get it right.
| svl7 wrote:
| A local shop might as well make things worse if they do not
| care too much and give your skis the standard treatment (e.g.
| different angle than before). Once you have a good edge, it's
| kind of similar as keeping a knife sharpened. No need to really
| grind every time, a fine polishing after skiing for a day is
| more than sufficient and makes your edges last a long time.
| Been using tools from here for 10+ years, they also have
| informative instructions: https://www.tooltonic.com/
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| > kind of similar as keeping a knife sharpened.
|
| Professional chefs get their knives sharpened once or twice a
| year, depending on how often they use them. They hone their
| knives before every use. The honing rod that comes with your
| knife set is there to realign the steel molecules along the
| blade edge. Sharpening your knife removes metal and creates a
| new blade edge, which you have to hone frequently for it to
| stay as sharp as you want it.
|
| I wonder if the ski tech person was using terminology
| correctly but the skier/blogger didn't quite understand.
| matsemann wrote:
| Not sure how you managed to destroy a pair of skis? It's mainly
| just to clamp the file onto a metal piece with the correct
| angle and grind away. Normally I put pen marks every few cms on
| the edge before I begin, then all those should disappear and I
| know I've grinded about the same all places.
|
| Or with a tool like Swix TA3008 it's hard to do wrong. Maybe
| need someone to set up the base angles, but then you can use it
| to touch up for years.
| esel2k wrote:
| How would one know the base angles I have currently?
| swader999 wrote:
| There's tools that can measure them. A low end is just a
| piece of metal that fits the edge with no light coming
| through. You can use a true bar and look with a loop or
| magnifying glass.
|
| Check out this tool: https://www.sidecut.com/product/BEBM.h
| tml?Category_Code=base...
|
| It's ridiculous how much you can spend on tuning gear.
| swader999 wrote:
| I'm a ski race parent. I tune every couple of days on snow. My
| U12 boy skis on 0.5 degrees base bevel, three degrees side edge.
| Here he is on a firm course at his last race this year:
| https://youtu.be/RWYO2ib-qe8?si=CRH01ViFUFApSx_o
|
| Setting that up is difficult but it's pretty easy to maintain
| once it is there. Side cut.com has great advice and tools.
|
| If you are on groomers and ski on decent skis, not powder boards,
| it is worth getting a tune.
|
| For ski racing and carving on man made snow, it is very similar
| to ice skating, you'll want to tune very frequently.
| strstr wrote:
| Do you mean .5 or 5 for the base bevel? 5 is quite far off the
| snow.
| swader999 wrote:
| 0.5 for base bevel with three degrees for the side is very
| aggressive for his age but his cuff alignment is dialed and
| he can handle it.
| strstr wrote:
| Thanks for the correction. I had just never heard of 5deg
| degrees as a base bevel. Not sure why you seem defensive.
| Isn't 0.5deg (or lower) the factory tune for slalom skis?
| Might only be a thing for U16+.
| swader999 wrote:
| All good, I didn't type it correctly initially. A lot of
| coaches in the past have been critical of those angles
| he's been on so I was probably anticipating it lol. Most
| kids that age are likely 0.75 and two degrees for Sl. And
| yeah older Fis kids are maybe trying zero base and
| perhaps 4 degrees on water injected surfaces.
| strstr wrote:
| Tuners look at me so strangely when I ask for 0deg/4deg
| lol. I can't imagine dealing with coaches.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yeah that is dialed like an F1 car and four degrees will
| shorten the life of the edge a bit. Some will do that
| much just under boot but go 3 at tip and tail. Another
| approach is to never debur and file every run. Saw that
| hack at a Fis GS race this year that was water injected
| by an over zealous course crew.
| strstr wrote:
| I've heard the lifespan thing before and never understood
| it. It's still 86 degrees wide.
| swader999 wrote:
| I guess it's because you cut away more initially so
| there's less edge to work with from that point forward.
| creato wrote:
| You can see in this video that the interaction of the ski with
| the snow is much more than just the edge of the ski. I really
| doubt the fine tuning of the edge matters that much.
|
| I don't think there is any objective way to settle this debate.
| I think if you enjoy tuning skis, go for it. I like sharpening
| knives and tools so I get it. But I don't bother with my skis.
| amluto wrote:
| It sounds entirely straightforward to do a randomized,
| blinded test of freshly sharpened vs unsharpened skis. (Okay,
| the skier can feel the edge or look closely, but a
| cooperative skier could just not do that for the purpose of
| the experiment.)
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes! And coaches will typically pull the kids from training
| if they show up dull. They'll go in the race shack and tune
| their edges and visually improve to all after fixing them.
| strstr wrote:
| You could also sharpen just one edge of each ski (opposite
| edges across the pair), then put the skis on random feet.
| Then see if they can tell which edges are sharp! Most of a
| typical skier's weight is supported by the inside edge of
| the downhill ski while carving.
|
| Youth racers tend to ski with one set of edges on the
| inside for training, and the other edges inside for racing
| (under the theory that the inside edges take more of a
| beating. Who knows if that is accurate). If you ever see
| youth racers on slalom skis (which are chiral, since they
| have tips that deflect ski gates), you'll often notice that
| the skis are on the "wrong" foot.
| oldandboring wrote:
| True enough at younger levels but as you move up in age
| and skill, the weight distribution between the downhill
| and uphill ski gets closer to 50/50. What you're saying
| has a kernel of truth and young skiers are still taught
| downhill ski as a fundamental but shaped skis have really
| changed the game on this.
| swader999 wrote:
| No, you never weight each ski evenly. Former WC mogul
| skier here and even in moguls there's a slight difference
| in weight on each ski in a turn. Shaped hour glass skis
| make it easy to turn but you still need more weight on
| the outside downhill ski.
| oldandboring wrote:
| That's why I said "closer to 50/50".
|
| Also, that's awesome that you competed WC moguls. I
| probably saw you compete depending on when you were
| active, and we almost definitely know some of the same
| people.
| swader999 wrote:
| Awesome! I might be even older and boring though. 92 was
| my last cup year.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Oh boy, yeah pretty old :) There is one person I know
| (but not very well) who you likely encountered (Canadian,
| in fact) but they didn't make it to the WC until 94 I
| believe.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| Tele is pretty close to 50/50.
| swader999 wrote:
| In a race, my kids race edge is marked on each ski and he
| only has those two edges close to his big toes on his
| race runs. If you don't ski, your a genius if you can
| figure out how and why this would work I'd imagine.
| matsemann wrote:
| I used to paint an arrow pointing to the left on one ski
| and the right on the other. Then I would for instance ski
| <--> during the day, and -><- during the race.
| swader999 wrote:
| Edges matter a lot for racing and carving, impossible to
| learn and progress without tuned skis and propper angles.
| Like going to ice hockey practice with dull skates, it just
| doesn't work. Parents obsess over wax at this age but it
| actually only adds a bit of speed, but boots and edges are
| critical.
| xarope wrote:
| I was going to mention this too; I used to have my hockey
| skates sharpened regularly, but I don't recall ever needing
| ski edges sharpened. Waxed, yes. Sharpened, no.
| swader999 wrote:
| Higher level ski racing uses water injection. They'll
| hook up the snow making water hoses to a bar that shoots
| water right into the snow. So it really becomes a 3D
| hockey rink.
| matsemann wrote:
| > _I really doubt the fine tuning of the edge matters that
| much._
|
| Try it and see.. Note that when you race, you often do it on
| watered+salted hills where hundred people have followed the
| exact same track. Really icy.
|
| It also might be a thing we're you're just not good enough to
| notice. I don't mean that as a slight, but seriously changing
| the angle of the edge of a ski is basically like racing a
| completely different pair. The feel of how it engages can
| quickly become too aggressive or lax.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Respectfully, this is incorrect. That would be like telling
| someone who games competitively that their GPU and CPU don't
| matter. Once you can tell, you can tell.
|
| If you gave a blind test, same exact skis but varied the
| tuning, most serious racers would be able to tell you what
| changed after a few turns. Edge or base bevel angles, wax,
| tuned or de-tuned. I haven't raced in years and I wager I
| would do pretty well on that test.
| Loic wrote:
| Son is U16, same 87/0.5 and if I am not doing them well, he
| will tell me as he can feel the difference. Of course, we have
| race and training skis, this helps having the race skis very
| well tuned.
|
| Your son is good :-)
| swader999 wrote:
| Thanks, he's been working really hard at it since 3 years
| old! We're at Mt Hood this week so tuning is still a thing
| even today lol.
|
| U16 is quite a step up, the courses get quite challenging at
| that level.
| oldandboring wrote:
| I can tell you are very proud of your U12 boy and from that
| video, you should be. His fundamentals are rock solid. His
| fore-aft is good, his timing is excellent, he's clearly
| prepared for the course well in inspection. He's generally not
| reaching to cross-block, as evidenced by the strategic inside-
| clear at the top of the pitch. Really, really strong.
| swader999 wrote:
| Thanks and you know what you are looking at!
| oldandboring wrote:
| I drink and I know things.
| m463 wrote:
| I have to wonder...
|
| The article shows edges and the effect of sharpening.
|
| However, I would imagine corrosion makes much of the surface of
| the ski more abrasive and that could explain the grabbiness.
|
| Is there any science behind the edge assertions? almost all of it
| is anecdotal.
|
| I can't help but think of overengineering and a/v systems.
|
| For example, I can't tell any difference from different speaker
| wires (except bad cables), but I do notice hiss in amplifiers.
| And I think OLED might be superior, but honestly dark scenes are
| horrible during daylight hours unless you have blackout curtains
| in the room with the panel. No review or marketing ever talks
| about these practical details. Same with reflections with glossy
| screens.
| swader999 wrote:
| You will see rust on your edges if you leave them wet and don't
| wipe them off. It can be removed with a soft gummy stone. A
| thick layer of wax left on the skis and edges keeps them rust
| free over the summer. Typically done for race skis or higher
| end skis.
|
| I don't worry about corrosion much, but I'm tuning the skis I
| use on ice every couple of days.
|
| My powder skis get waxed every few days, edges only to set up
| the angles once. Maybe once a season after that or to fix as
| best I can when hitting rocks.
| jajko wrote:
| Edges makes bigger difference in ski touring or more
| appropriately ski alpinism. Meaning tricky steep slopes where
| you sometimes switch skis for crampons and ice axe and put
| them on backpack, wildly varying conditions on the slopes. Or
| using ski crampons when its less extreme.
|
| There, any advantage is very important, ie how precisely you
| put skins on skis to leave that little bit of edge for...
| edging, at least thats what we call it. I don't think it
| makes a massive difference there how sharp your edges are,
| but in steep icy/crusty slopes where your skis don't even
| leave a mark as you pass, only crampons a bit, everything
| helping is more than welcome. I never clean them thoroughly
| though so edges are rusty, 10-15 years of moderate use of
| skis makes no difference to me.
|
| Also, in usual piste skiing in resorts, if you go _really_
| fast, at least relative to rest of skiers, and slope is a bit
| icy, sharp edges make a lot of difference in how stable skis
| are in turns. There even I can feel difference between dulled
| and sharpened ones.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Edges makes bigger difference in ski touring or more
| appropriately ski alpinism_
|
| East Coast? I'm a Rocky Mountain skinner and I can't
| remember the last time I edged off piste.
| cbrozefsky wrote:
| East coast touring.... Edges are nice even traversing on
| piste when you going up after the lifts have closed and
| the machined dust has been scraped off the hardpack. Also
| the one time a flexy ski is better on ice, when you gotta
| traverse a bumped out section...
|
| Also have backcountry nordic pair with metal edges for
| similiar reason -- tho i only debur them, never
| sharpened.
|
| On piste skinning is mostly because it's where the snow
| is until the back country fills in later in the season.
| jajko wrote:
| More like Mont Blanc ski ascent in my case... no room for
| mistakes on steeper slopes
| gorbypark wrote:
| It totally depends on the type of skier and the type of skis you
| have. I worked in the ski industry and thus lived and worked in
| ski towns for 15 years. If you are a ski racer, tuning edges
| matter. If you aggressively ride groomers all day, then they will
| matter. Riding big fat powder skis everyday, inside and outside
| of the resort? More or less doesn't matter. Are you a park rat
| that only ever skis the park? Those folks will actually detune
| their edges on purpose.
|
| If you are a beginner / intermediate skier (someone who never to
| rarely carves a ski), edges on the blunter side of things can
| actually help you out. Sure, it's a bit more sketchy on ice,
| however just doing a "slide turn" is going to be much easier. It
| will take less force to make your skis point where you want them
| too, making you much more confident. It's one of the reasons they
| put beginners on smaller skis. Less edge = easier turning.
|
| I have skis that were kept dry and haven't been sharpened in
| years and ski perfectly fine and it's exactly how I want them.
| swader999 wrote:
| For park or intermediate on ice, I would still give them a
| decent tune but use a one degree base bevel, that'll rarely
| hook but give a lot of confidence on ice.
| bamboozled wrote:
| "Riding big fat powder skis everyday, inside and outside of the
| resort? More or less doesn't matter."
|
| Until you stop off at the bar on a Sunny day and ride home on
| dusk once everything has frozen again, then you'd be like "oh I
| wish I didn't tell everyone not to keep their edges in decent
| shape", as you fly off the cliff edge.
| fragmede wrote:
| Yeah but the whole way down you're saying to yourself "I
| shouldnta have that last drink" because you coulda made it
| home in time, instead of blaming your tools, unless you're a
| bad craftsman.
| bamboozled wrote:
| Good craftsmen drink beer.
| aeyes wrote:
| It's easier on fat skis which haven't been waxed in a long
| time. They aren't as fast so I rarely have to really put them
| on the edge on ice. I do a slide turn while keeping as much
| contact with the surface as I can.
|
| That's also the biggest downside, you can't really rip it
| with fat skis. Not even if you go down dead straight.
| swader999 wrote:
| Fat skis put a lot of torque on the knees on ice if they
| are properly tuned and your carving in a high G turn. It's
| the wrong tool for that job, best to just slide around and
| chill like you mentioned.
| denhaus wrote:
| On most firm conditions, I absolutely think you can rip it
| on fat skis with awful edges. Especially on groomers. I do
| it every year on 120mm waist skis. It is highly dependent
| on skill level. For an example, watch freestylers carve
| switch down some rock-solid melt frozen 45deg park feature
| on detuned $200 skis they picked up at a swap meet 8 years
| ago. The result is much more dependent on the rider, not
| the equipment. I've watched pro dudes rip harder than
| 99.999% of skiers on joke trash skis from the 90s (rusting,
| holes in the base, chunks missing from edges) and broken
| snowblades.
|
| On true ice, NO ONE is ripping it except racers or ex-
| racers with good equipment.
| denhaus wrote:
| I laughed out loud at the "fly off a cliff edge"
|
| On the real however, getting down the mountain safely after
| dusk etc with dull vs. sharp edges will likely only affect
| intermediate skiers. Beginner skiers are going to crash no
| matter what they're riding if on steep and icy terrain.
| Expert skiers know when and how to ride conservatively and
| can basically ride anything in any conditions "safely" (even
| if that means just sliding a firm patch rather than carving
| it), as long as they're aware of the limitations of their
| gear. 90% of the year I ride pow skis in any conditions
| (including melt freeze etc) with super dull edges - it's
| totally fine. The other 10% is just to have a little more fun
| on very firm days.
|
| Intermediates, on the other hand, will be overly aggressive
| beyond their capabilities. They'll bounce their helmet off a
| melt-frozen knoll at first opportunity, similar to what you
| said!
| bamboozled wrote:
| What I didn't really like about he parents comment is that
| it seems kind of "lazy" not to do your edges. My wife
| broker her arm recently when a kid fell over in front of
| her and she couldn't stop quickly. On steep icy terrain
| this is a concern. That was my true "fly off a cliff edge"
| example.
|
| The comment seemed like a "I don't wear a helmet because
| it's uncool" sort of thing...just do your edges
| occasionally, what's the issue?
| sgt wrote:
| Yeah, I grew up with skis, but I don't think I have ever heard
| of anyone sharpening the edges. Waxing the skis yes.
| watwut wrote:
| They do it in services centers for few bucks and in a few
| minutes. It actually does massive difference on icy slopes -
| it makes difference between being helpless and being able to
| control where you are going.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| I grew up with skis too, and my dad and I would sharpen our
| GS skis together in the garage every Friday evening, for a
| weekend of racing. Used to finish them with a sealskin strop,
| literally as sharp as razors - for the first few runs.
| matsemann wrote:
| Same. Kind of a nice ritual and I look back at that time
| spent together fondly. I also feel a bit sorry(/grateful)
| for all the time my parents spent on this. Driving me
| ungodly early so I could get to a race a few towns over,
| and then waiting there all day for me and my team mates to
| do our thing and then drive us home.
|
| You really do notice the difference on well maintained
| edges. On groomed slopes I can ski anything, and it doesn't
| really matter. But I don't think most people realize how
| icy a race track can become.
| sgt wrote:
| They got to spend time with you, which is its own reward.
| I only realized this now when I got a kid (he's 3). Never
| thought about it that way before. Do you have kids?
| matsemann wrote:
| Yes, that is true.
|
| And no, no kids. But if I do, I'm thinking I'd like them
| to do something not as expensive and time consuming. But
| with my own 50 days skiing this winter, it might just end
| up being skiing anyways, heh.
| swader999 wrote:
| Skiing is a great family sport. You get to build
| cameraderie together exploring a big mountain. It's quite
| an undertaking for a parent and yes, expensive. Most
| other sports, the parents are typically just watching.
| rhcom2 wrote:
| This might be location dependent because in the Northeast US
| getting your edges sharpened almost every season isn't rare.
| AmVess wrote:
| I was a scrub level skier, and had mine sharpened a few
| times a season. Slopes varied between powder and crusty,
| wind blown snow. Hitting crusty snow at mach 17 on dull
| skis, and you'd end up doing a high performance
| uncontrolled flight into terrain routine.
| denhaus wrote:
| It's a racing thing, mostly. Most shops offer a basic service
| for a machine wax + edge sharpening so that's when most
| people get it done (even if they don't really know what
| they're paying for)
| skittlebrau wrote:
| Tell me you don't ski in New England without telling me you
| don't ski in New England.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| I grew up in VT skiing and snowboarding 4 days/wk, edge
| tuning was a daily ritual and base prep was about once a
| week (although probably should have been twice)
| buildsjets wrote:
| Hah, as a child I fractured my skull on a 7'th grade school
| trip to Brodie Mountain. Maybe somewhere around 1988? A
| quick check on Google Maps will show that Brodie Mountain
| is only 2600 feet high and very near Albany NY, therefore
| is unlikely to produce good skiing conditions. It turns out
| that a 15 minute lesson from your math teacher is
| insufficient to develop the skills necessary to stop on a
| completely iced over intermediate trail, so I did the
| snowplow directly into a rack of ski equipment going 30mph
| or so and wrecked myself.
| jtnielsen wrote:
| I detuned my edges under the boot area when I was younger and
| only focused on park skiing. Catching an edge on a box or rail
| was a fear I had. Never tuned the edges on any of my twin tips.
| I did wax them though!
| swader999 wrote:
| There's times in a pipe where you'll want grip on the ice
| there. You'll use a one degree base bevel to prevent hooking.
| If you ride metal rails though, I give up trying to discuss
| tuning.
| jtnielsen wrote:
| You are right! Pipe is a different discipline where you
| actually want an edge.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Ski here in the northeast or midwest and on the ice we get?
| You're going to want sharp edges.
| SailToSki wrote:
| I grew up in Maine skiing at Sunday River but spent my entire
| childhood in the park never once cared about my edges. Had I
| been in the pipe, maybe a different story.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Edges are not... what you want in the park. Hence Armada
| and others making literally edgeless skiers for park rats.
|
| Making your way down free ride or even groomed terrain at
| Tremblant or Whiteface etc after a typical northeastern
| rain->refreeze cycle... Nice sharp metal edges are a
| godsend.
| ptero wrote:
| I ski mostly in the Northeast and my old, unsharpened skis
| work just fine for me. I don't ski double blacks now (for the
| knees that feel it much more than 30 years ago) but I am
| doing just fine on single blacks and below.
|
| Do I ever wish for a sharp edge when I occasionally end up on
| an icy plate scrubbed by snowboarders at the end of the day?
| Yes. But so rarely, that I never care enough to actually
| sharpen them.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I started skiing before there were ever snowboarders, and
| let me tell you that slopes were just as scraped out then
| as now. Probably worse as groomers and snowmaking weren't
| as competent.
| strstr wrote:
| Unless you do your own tuning (or are willing to light money on
| fire) it's hard to A/B test ski waxing/edge tuning. I kinda
| suspect this alleged olympic tuner didn't cross compare, or just
| doesn't ski in ways where you'd notice (he might just like skid
| turns through packed powder). Or he just uses backcountry noodles
| on groomed snow, and can't tell since he's using skis that won't
| let him.
|
| Going from dull edges (even "well maintained" ones) to freshly
| sharpened is quite noticeable on icy days. I use 0deg/4deg and
| like the responsiveness and grip.
|
| From my long past race days (when I had to maintain several pairs
| simultaneously), I could tell that the wax design temp mattered
| deeply, though mostly >25f vs lower temp. High temp waxes are
| down right sticky in cold snow (and vice versa). But cold waxes
| are largely fine for middle temps (~10-20f or whatever). The
| (horrifying) fluoro stuff was also very effective, though
| probably banned by now if anyone is sane. I wasn't able to tell
| the difference beyond the temp though, unless the skis were
| damaged. Though, I mostly just don't wax these days since I'm not
| trying to eek out extra speed.
|
| Base bevel (the angle trimmed off the metal edge from the side
| that sits on the snow) matters and is largely ignored by
| skiers/snowboarders, since tuners are cautious, and skiers don't
| know to ask. It determines how responsive the skis are (going
| from 0deg to 1deg means you need to tilt your leg an extra
| degree). You can only decrease it (or clean it up) by flattening
| the entire base and then sharpening, which requires specialized
| equipment.
|
| Edge bevel matters, but allegedly has diminishing returns. It
| (allegedly) gives a bit of extra grippyness. I've never quite
| understood why it matters, since it seems like it just narrows
| the metal very slightly. From my A/B testing, the freshness of
| the sharpening seems to matter more than the edge angle, but I've
| also never set it below 2deg.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| Switching to more aggressive edge angles (1deg base, 3deg side
| from 0deg base, 1deg side) on my snowboard made a huge
| difference. I can lock in a carved turn much easier on ice and
| don't catch my tails or any other sketchiness in slow floating
| transitions across the board. I think most of the improvement
| is attributable to base bevel, and I agree with your assessment
| that freshness of sharpening is important. I hit my edges with
| a fine grit stone and a gummy stone every morning before
| heading out, and by afternoon they're noticeably more dull and
| hold less well. One test you can do to measure this is to drag
| the top of your fingernail across the edge in a perpendicular
| manner. If the edge is sharp it'll shave a little ribbon of
| fingernail off, if it isn't it won't. I only ever use a file to
| change angles or if I need to take a bunch of material off to
| fix a large rock gouge (like something that would require also
| ptex repair). I ride a Tanker 201 with Upz hardboots and F2
| plates.
| MandieD wrote:
| If you're a weekend warrior like me, for whom 20 days is a
| fantastic season, the binding release check that your shop should
| be doing as part of your ski service is probably the most
| important part, especially as your skis get older.
|
| I had to stop using my beloved "ice cutters" because one of the
| bindings failed to release in the shop. Up to that point, I had
| rarely been disappointed by them releasing too easily, and always
| relieved when they did release.
|
| Make sure that they use one of your boots for the test.
| swader999 wrote:
| Twenty days is still pretty serious, $1500 for a pass or $150
| for a day ticket, gas, gear etc. So pay for at least one tune
| per year, maybe even three if you ski groomers with groomer
| type skis a lot.
|
| An effective way to test your bindings - put your skis on at a
| flat area and with boots done up, dig your edge in and try to
| twist your boot out of the ski binding with your own muscular
| power. It will hurt a bit and be hard to do, but if you can't,
| you need to lower your din.
| burkaman wrote:
| FYI, $1500 is very expensive for a pass and $150 for a day
| trip is incredibly cheap these days. You can get an Ikon/Epic
| pass for under $1000, and you should if you're going to ski
| more than a few days because even east coast mountains are
| charging $200+ just for the day pass.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yep, I'm quoting Trudeau bucks. I think I paid 2,000 cad
| for a family pass next season.
| te_chris wrote:
| I'll take 20 days! Sounds amazing. Generally get a week in a
| year - but in the Alps, so pretty good.
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _" Last winter, I rode a ski lift alongside a guy who claimed
| to be a retired Olympic ski tuner."_
|
| On another note, this is apparantely a high-risk occupation due
| to exposure to PFAS and other carcinogens in ski wax. The FIS
| recently banned the use of fluorinated wax in competitions, but
| it was the norm for many years. Not great to be a ski tuner
| breathing in all those heated/aerosolised PFAS compounds...
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes, we used to wear a p100 respirator with those waxes. Many
| didn't. Can't purchase them any more and I'm glad because they
| were crazy expensive
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Are there studies that show that ski tuners are more
| susceptible to some specific diseases, and that it can be tied
| to particular chemicals, PFAS in particular.
|
| That would be interesting, as all the worries about PFAS is
| more along the lines of "it may be bad, and if it is we are
| screwed as we have dumped so much of it in nature and it
| doesn't degrade", but concrete evidence is still lacking today.
|
| Note that overheated PTFE is bad, but we are talking over
| 250degC, which is, I believe, way less than the temperatures
| used by ski tuners.
| gkanai wrote:
| A lot depends on where you ski. If you're skiing in the Northeast
| US, where conditions are often icy, then yes tuning matters a
| great deal. If you race, or want precision in your turns, then
| tuning is important.
|
| If you're a powder hound in Utah or Niseko, then it matters a lot
| less.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Towel definitely does.
| IsTom wrote:
| > Snow and ice are quite abrasive stuff
|
| Per wiki ice has mohs hardness of 2 to 4 depending on temperature
| and if it has fallen out of the sky I guess it shouldn't be mixed
| with sand or other abrasives.
|
| How is it abrasive then?
| chrisandchris wrote:
| That assumes that most of the snow is actually fallen from the
| sky.
|
| In central european ski resorts, largest parts of ski lopes are
| not natural snow anymore (or are mostly mixed
| natural/artificial). And artificial snow has far more sharp
| crystals than natural snow.
| IsTom wrote:
| Shape doesn't matter what the shape is if it's softer than
| the other material, you can't scratch glass with chalk no
| matter the shape of it.
| abakker wrote:
| minerals in the snow / wind blown grit / rocks / banging
| around in the ski rack, the lift line, hitting poles, etc.
|
| You're right. Snow isn't hard enough, but, it's probably a
| mistake to assume it's just snow.
| swader999 wrote:
| I think at a microscopic level, the sharp knife edge on
| your ski will become rounded after a few runs on ice just
| from the force involved. You are right, it has little to do
| with the nature of the snow crystals.
| mjhay wrote:
| My guess is two things:
|
| 1. All snow has some level of particulates, especially older
| snow (moreso if there has been melting, because the
| particles/dirt/whatever concentrate on top).
|
| 2. Cornering on piste would put pretty big stresses on the tip
| of the edge. This could perhaps cause the edge to bend and
| curl, or even break little pieces off from metal fatigue. I
| think this would be a bigger deal in most winter skiing
| conditions.
| snthd wrote:
| Above -37, Snow needs particulates to form.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci...
|
| >The most important type of ice nuclei is mineral dusts blown
| into the atmosphere from deserts, arid lands, and agricultural
| fields. The International Mineralogical Association (IMA)
| defines minerals as naturally occurring solid substances formed
| in geological processes.
|
| IIRC snow makers use particulates too.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| Moh's scale is useful for field identification of minerals.
| It's not really useful as an all-purpose predictor of
| durability.
|
| Pressure is a huge variable. In a typical Moh's test, there is
| very little: just a person rubbing two stones together by hand.
| But with enough pressure, liquid water (hardness: none) can cut
| steel. Lead can damage steel or quartz if fired out of a gun.
| Etc.
|
| And as others have mentioned, snow might have particles of
| other materials in it as well. But just to be clear: Moh's
| scale does not mean that pure ice could never abrade steel.
| tim333 wrote:
| My skis used to hit a variety of rocks, dirt, grit and bits of
| metal. Even on clean looking snow there are probably bits of grit
| occasionally. I'm not sure pure snow would wear the steel edges
| significantly?
| PcChip wrote:
| TIL skis have metal edges on them
| werdnapk wrote:
| snowboards too
| throwaway7285 wrote:
| ...metal edges which apparently have to be sharpened from time
| to time, or not, as the case may be.
| throwaway7285 wrote:
| So here's a silly question from someone who's never been near
| a...whatever you call a place where skiing is done. Skis have
| sharp edges? Why?
| aredox wrote:
| To dig into snow (and sometimes ice) to turn and/or brake.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Because while snow is soft and fluffy when it first falls,
| after a few temperature changes and having been groomed and
| skied on for hours/days, it transforms from snow crystals to
| ice crystals. Unless new snow falls on top, that's what you're
| gonna be skiing on, and you'll slide all over the place without
| sharp edges.
|
| Here is one of the best skiers in the world, on a race course
| set on a surface intentionally prepared to be solid ice:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHdHUg1FC4
| swader999 wrote:
| Great clip. Courses are considered more fair the firmer it
| is. The track will stay more consistent for more of the field
| of racers if it is firm.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Former junior and Masters racer here. Glad to see there's some
| very qualified voices in these comments, including a few who are
| currently involved (as racing parents). I very much appreciate
| the level of technical detail and accuracy in those comments.
| I'll talk base bevels all day.
|
| Pretty much agree with everything those folks have written. Most
| definitely sharp edges, and your bevels, matter when you are
| really pushing it, especially if you are racing, and most
| especially if you are on extremely hard or even water-injected
| snow.
|
| Outside of that type of skiing, the ski tech on the lift was, I
| think, making a point that is true enough for most "normie"
| skiers, and inadvertently the blog author validated it with the
| microscope experiment. The short version is that once your edge
| angles are set, "polishing" them with a diamond stone should,
| generally, mostly, be all that is necessary to restore the edge
| shape after use. No filing should be necessary. If the edge get
| damaged with rocks or rust, this is no longer true. All caveats
| apply. The ski tech is just trying to say "don't pay a shop to
| run your skis through the machine when all you need is to rub
| your edges with a diamond stone for a minute."
|
| Now, just how practical this is, again depends on who you are.
| You'd have to be:
|
| - A regular enough skier to own your own equipment
|
| - Good enough to benefit from a tuned edge
|
| - Technical and handy enough to buy a diamond stone and learn to
| use it
|
| - It has to not be impractical to go through this ritual after
| skiing (try doing this with two or three young, tired kids in
| tow)
|
| Anyway I just enjoyed having this be on the front page of HN
| today. I'm good at like 2 things and this is one of them.
| swader999 wrote:
| Nice clarification about the polishing once you have it setup.
| This is fairly quick to do too.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Believe it or not, as a junior I had the hardest time
| believing this. We'd be down in the waxroom filing our edges
| to death every other day and it would feel like I couldn't
| get an edge otherwise. The idea that the edge could be
| "polished" back to sharpness was alien to me. That being
| said, on skinny skis in the 90s, it took a lot of work to set
| an edge and little kids were at a disadvantage. I was
| basically skidding around and the sharp edges were just
| keeping it at bay.
| swader999 wrote:
| For super G or WC downhill skis, they barely have enough
| edge. The techs at these levels probably don't file at all,
| maybe one time per pair.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Same with cycling. When I lose enough weight and get so fast
| that I have to change my clothes to get faster, then I will
| clip in if I need to win a race.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Interesting read about the science of how body hair slows you
| down: https://nautil.us/winning-by-a-hair-341059/
| jcgrillo wrote:
| Another important tuning dimension is base structure. I never
| realized the impact of base structure until I got a GS board
| that had been ground with a very aggressive base. That thing
| absolutely flies on wet snow.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes, structure adds more speed than wax does, especially on
| wet snow and in speed events. Wax makes the ski easier to
| turn though.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| The most important thing with wax is to brush it all out of
| the base structure, otherwise you basically just have a
| flat wax base. I went years (maybe 10?) before I learned
| that scraping alone wasn't enough. I used to think brushing
| was like a small optimization that you'd only do if you're
| racing, but it actually makes a tremendous difference.
| abakker wrote:
| A fellow hardbooter? I feel like the base size on snowboards
| benefits even more from good tuning than a lot of narrow race
| skis. And, obviously, you only have 1 edge instead of two, so
| the load on the edge is bigger.
|
| apropos of this discussion, my main board probably never gets
| a serious tune now that I live in the rockies. back in VT, it
| was critical daily maintenance due to the amount of ice you
| actually encountered.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| Yeah current setup is Tanker 201, Upz RC11s, and F2 race
| bindings. I also have an F2 GS board with these awesome big
| rubber riser plates and F2 bindings as well but I don't
| ride it very often as I can carve the Tanker much tighter
| and slower, which as you know is important on narrow, icy
| east coast trails
| abakker wrote:
| Haha, another PSR/Eric Brammer student maybe? I'm also on
| a tanker 200, F2 race TIs and an older pair of Deelux
| Track 325s. I keep waiting for a good deal on an f2
| silberfeil or a not very aggressive Donek Axis to come up
| for sale.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| No I'm not familiar with those two, I'm self-taught
| mostly from reading stuff online and watching racers
| practice. I skied for 8 years or so before snowboarding
| (I believe I started around 2001?) so carving the board
| has always been kind of natural for me once I got past
| the whole two feet stuck down thing.
| stephencanon wrote:
| > It has to not be impractical to go through this ritual after
| skiing (try doing this with two or three young, tired kids in
| tow)
|
| Anecdotally I do all the routine waxing and edge maintenance on
| my family's (wife and two kids) skis, and it's not that big a
| deal. Slightly less of a hassle than bringing gear to the shop
| to do it would be for me, and the kids enjoy hanging out with
| some hot cocoa and helping a bit. Once you have everything in
| your workspace set up right, it goes pretty fast.
| anytime5704 wrote:
| > Once you have everything in your airspace set up...
|
| The great filter of self-maintaining ski equipment.
|
| I don't have the space for a permanent setup and it's just
| more convenient to drag the skis to the store once a year
| than buy the equipment, learn to use it, store it somewhere,
| remember where, etc.
|
| I imagine many others (most?) feel the same.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes, I only tune my U12 kids skis religiously. My own skis,
| wife's and my other retired ski racer kid get far less
| tuning attention. I'm at a resort that is mostly soft snow
| too.
| burningChrome wrote:
| >> it's just more convenient to drag the skis to the store
| once a year
|
| I agree.
|
| I've been skiing and snowboarding for over 30 years. I used
| to tune my skis and board religiously myself. Once I got
| married and had a few kids, it got cumbersome to tune my
| board, then two to three additional pairs of skis. Then I
| went back to just tuning mine and realized how much of a
| mess it makes and how time consuming it can be.
|
| When I was younger, I loved doing it because it was a sort
| of a 'zen' process for me to lose myself for an hour or so
| and the idea of tuning my board like a pro and having to
| live with the results, for better or worse I always thought
| was cool. The idea of telling people you knew how to do
| this and you were really good at it also was apart of the
| mystique of being able to do it.
|
| Now? I just take my stuff to a shop where I know the guys
| and they do a bang up job for me. Saves me the time and the
| people I ride with don't give a hoot whether I can tune my
| board, they just want to know if I can still ride those
| double black D's with them.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| The funny thing is that I started tuning our own
| equipment _because_ of the kids. It 's just too much $$
| to be getting all 4 sets (and multiple in my case because
| I have GAS) tuned regularly. It's too much $$ _and_
| hassle to be dragging them off to the shop all the time
| and then waiting to get them back.
|
| Plus, I have had to learn to mount my own bindings
| because I telemark, and the local shops around here won't
| touch it, warranty it, or do a decent job. That alone has
| made me "fear" ski tech a lot less.
|
| A lot of bullshit mystique set up by "pro" ski shops....
| trogdor wrote:
| > I loved doing it because it was a sort of a 'zen'
| process for me to lose myself for an hour or so and the
| idea of tuning my board like a pro and having to live
| with the results, for better or worse I always thought
| was cool
|
| Your comment reminds me of gun cleaning. Most modern
| firearms require little more than occasional lubrication.
| Despite that reality, many gun owners thoroughly clean
| their guns after every trip to the range. Probably for
| similar reasons to those you describe.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| One thing the conversation seems to be missing is rocks and
| handling.
|
| Rocks are mostly an off-piste issue, but I have seen it happen
| on piste. Especially early and last season when cover can be
| low. Will occasionally also happen near the lift when a spot
| gets warn low. When I get rock gashes, it's always easier to
| just send them to the shop's machine.
|
| Handling also introduces a fair amount of nicks. In theory, the
| edges should never meet at an awkward angle, but it happens.
| Skis slide around on the rack, skis flip out a position while
| carrying them, things shift in the car, etc, etc.
| oldandboring wrote:
| I addressed this when I wrote,
|
| > If the edge get damaged with rocks or rust, this is no
| longer true.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| > Rocks are mostly an off-piste issue
|
| _*laughs in East Coast*_
| FredFS456 wrote:
| Use ski straps, especially the type which has a rubber end
| that you can stick in between the skis. It prevents them from
| scissoring, which is harmful for both the edges and the base.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I tend to forget them. However, in my case, I'm basically
| skiing rocks every time I'm out. Tools, not jewels.
| pmart123 wrote:
| I'm no expert in this, but I think one common misconception
| among regular skiers is that a ski tune is "free" rather than
| each ski only gets so many full tunes as it wears down the base
| and edges. Obviously, if you get a core shot or something like
| that, it becomes more necessary. I always understood waxing
| skis as more protective though?
| emgeee wrote:
| Could definitely be wrong but I always thought waxing was
| about reducing the friction between the ski and the snow by
| both creating a uniform surface and because the wax has a
| lower coefficient of friction than the plastic of the skis.
|
| edit: learned something new!
| jcgrillo wrote:
| A uniform surface is actually not ideal, as it causes a lot
| of suction between the base and the snow, that's why ski
| and snowboard bases have "structure" ground into them with
| a stone grinder--that's what getting a base grind does, it
| restores the base's structure.
|
| Hot waxing permeates the pores in the ptex with oils from
| the wax, but you really want to scrape and brush it all off
| --there shouldn't be any residual wax remaining after.
| thereisnospork wrote:
| >but you really want to scrape and brush it all off--
| there shouldn't be any residual wax remaining after.
|
| I for one have always been a proponent of the lazy-man
| approach of letting the mountain do the scraping. Avoids
| the messiest part of the job. Sure the first run or two
| will be a touch slower, but unless you are serious enough
| to have a dedicated pair of race skis to schlep to the
| start, you aren't going to have a pristine base anyway.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| I used to just scrape (no brushing) and let the first few
| runs do the work but then at some point I started
| brushing and realized that it made a big difference. I
| think what was happening (could be checked with the
| author's microscope) was the snow was wearing off the wax
| on the lands of the base structure but the grooves still
| had at least some wax--so it was essentially forming a
| less sharply structured base.
| baggachipz wrote:
| > Luckily, fixing this kind of damage isn't hard. I use a 3D
| printed jig with a 500 grit diamond stone. A couple of glides
| down the edge is enough to completely clear this up.
|
| I don't ski often enough to own my own skis, so I rent them.
| Having used those rentals in icy conditions, I've had a lousy
| time due to their shoddy edges. A tool like this would make my
| day(s) on the slopes so much better. Anybody know of a place I
| could buy something like this, so that I could bring the rentals
| into "serviceable" condition?
| huskdigselv wrote:
| A rental should be able to sharpen them if you address it. (And
| at least here in Europe all rentals sharpen their skis
| frequently enough).
|
| A good tester is to see if the skis edge grips the surface of
| your finger nail, the same way you would test a knife or a
| sharp tool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEuV2CPE3w). If it
| slides across it with no friction, then it's a blunt ski.
|
| Personally, I would advice against trying to tune skis
| manually, because you might just as easily blunt the edge as
| you might sharpen it if you don't have a good jig and tools.
|
| Through my 12 years of teaching skiing, I will say that more
| often than not people who complain about icy conditions are
| held back by their technique; are you skid steering or carving,
| because when you are skid steering no level of ski tuning can
| make your edges stay on hard snow. (Tip: This guy has made an
| incredible amount of videos about the topic and has even
| himself progressed from being a skid steering freestyle skier
| to now being an excellent carver.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWFlltWQTU).
| baggachipz wrote:
| A fair point; my technique is... slightly less than stellar.
| Especially when I hit ice, I tend to panic and try to slow
| down however possible. So I'll pay attention to sharpness
| next time I rent, but blaming the equipment is a favorite
| pastime of mine (read: golf).
| devonsolomon wrote:
| Always good to see a '.co.za' :)
| MisterTea wrote:
| Sharp skis are necessary for good control otherwise you're just
| sliding around. Snow and Ice aren't the only things you ski over
| as there is a ton of dirt and other debris mixed in. Sometimes
| you get rocks and pebbles near trail edges. Heck, spring skiing
| will put you on trails with thin snow cover in addition to
| patches of grass and dirt that will destroy your skis (fun fact:
| hitting grass at speed is NOT fun - instant stop.)
|
| My father was also of the opinion that wax was a scam as he
| stated it would likely wear off in the first few runs. The idea
| was it filled in the scratches on the ski bottoms leaving a
| flatter surface. Maybe it works. maybe it doesn't. I always
| enjoyed watching the guys in the ski shops apply it by taking a
| slice of wax and then using a clothes iron, melt it like a pat of
| butter along the bottom.
| swader999 wrote:
| We could talk for pages about wax. Your father is partly right,
| it does wear off quickly, especially if you apply it correctly.
|
| I'd say wax is important in that it prevents the base from
| oxidizing. A dried out base is more difficult to turn and
| slower.
|
| Structure (small grooves in the base) will make you a second
| faster)
|
| Wearing a race suit vs a normal tight coat will make you two
| seconds faster.
|
| Proper setup edges vs no tune rounded edges will make you 5-6
| seconds faster and with much lower chances of dsq.
|
| The type of wax is much less important. In a slalom race,
| choosing the best wax vs a less perfect type might only improve
| you by 0.02 seconds on a sixty second long race.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I guess that was the issue, we were casual skiers who just
| enjoyed the runs so when they offered wax, it was of no use
| to us so may father refused. This was at the mountain ski
| shop so you know they pushed everything they could.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| As a US east/ice coast skier, I can say yes, skis do get blunt,
| and it makes a big difference. If you need to grip on ice you
| need sharp edges.
| Zigurd wrote:
| Sports and folk knowledge have long been companions. I just saw
| an article about some teams running 25mm tires on the new gravel
| stage at the Tour de France because "25mm is fast." It doesn't
| help that elite athletes can be very opinionated about what is
| best for their performance, and they are so talented, fit, and
| well-trained they can perform well on deficient equipment.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| 25 mm became Vogue and cycling because wind tunnel testing
| showed it was superior in aerodynamics combined with a new
| carbon clincher rims
|
| If I recall correctly
| skiexperte wrote:
| Its a shitty article.
|
| Just looking at your skies and seeing an 'issue' doesn't tell you
| anything besides the fact that yes something had fun with that
| edge.
|
| Questions which are completly unanswered: How long does a sharp
| edge actually stay as it is? If it looks like this after 5
| minutes, it doesn't matter.
|
| It also doesn't say if it was snow, ice or stones/ground killing
| that edge.
|
| And as far as i remember, he didn't say anything regarding the
| waxing.
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| >If you keep your skis dry between days out they'll stay sharp
| for their entire lifetime. Don't get him started on waxing. His
| specific claim was that skis get blunt from corrosion, and all
| you have to do is keep them dry.
|
| Stopped reading around there. He actually took a microscope to
| verify what should be common sense for anyone with a basic
| understanding of physics. And then didn't even do it properly
| like you point out.
|
| Is it only my perception or are people getting more
| gullible/stupid? It's something I notice more and more, someone
| says something obviously ridiculous but instead of dismissing
| it and filing the person under 'nutter', my feeling is more and
| more misinformation is taken serious or at least considered as
| potentially true. Or maybe it's an increasing lack of social
| skills? Maybe there's a decreasing understanding of the fact
| that the chance of running into a random guy telling tall
| tales, being misinformed or outright crazy is high when you're
| out somewhere with hundreds of people.
| hoosieree wrote:
| As an amateur woodworker, this is not changing my belief that a
| $50 USB microscope is one of the most expensive things a hobbyist
| can buy.
| paddy_m wrote:
| I'm in a ski share house in the northeast. Last winter I
| organized a ski tuning clinic put on by the local ski shop that
| does race tunes. I thought that only the expert nerdy skiers in
| the house would be interested, but everyone was fascinated. Most
| of the attendees won't tune their own skis, but they will know
| what to look for in their skis, and when to take them in.
|
| Also, in the north east, tuned skis absolutely matter, whatever
| level you are. My wife has been learning to ski and had trouble
| with ice. So I put on her beginner skis, and said, ahh no wonder,
| went back and tuned them. Then I put her on my slalom skis
| because she didn't trust her skis to initiate a turn (slalom skis
| are famously quick to initiate), and she could turn them quickly.
| Then I tuned one edge of each slalom ski with a more aggressive
| tune, but she could swap back to regular if she wanted. Finally,
| she was skidding her turns too much, so I put her on my GS skis,
| which forced her to patiently start the turn then follow it
| through. She now has a good idea of when she's having trouble
| with the ski shape, the conditions or the ski tune after 35 total
| days of skiing.
|
| If you put a beginner or intermediate on race skis, make sure the
| tune is mellow enough. Slalom skis at 0.5 and 86, will hunt when
| not turning, and can grab an edge throwing you to the ground. At
| the steeper angles (86/87 vs 88/89) it is much harder to skid the
| ski for speed control. When you head out with a beginner, you can
| always bring a diamond stone and detune the tip/tail, on the
| mountain even. They will notice the difference and appreciate it.
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