[HN Gopher] Talent Search versus Talent Development (2019) [pdf]
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Talent Search versus Talent Development (2019) [pdf]
Author : JustinSkycak
Score : 78 points
Date : 2024-07-07 14:53 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (community.ams.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (community.ams.org)
| catgary wrote:
| I generally think math competitions do more harm than good for
| math outreach, especially if only 60(!!) students for a country
| the size of the US are being given any actual development after
| the initial tests.
| joe_the_user wrote:
| I took part in math competitions as part of a math club in High
| School during the 70s. It was fun, made me think and was a bit
| of a social outlet. I don't think any one test was that
| important - we took a bunch of standard and experimental
| national tests and monthly meetups had their own problems.
|
| All that said, my impression is current math clubs and
| competitions have been taken over by kids just wanting credit
| for college rather than the kids of my era, who were there
| 'cause they actually enjoyed math.
|
| If the only purpose you can see for math competitions is find a
| few very talented kids, yeah, well then they would qualify as
| counter-productive.
| Animats wrote:
| Outside the few hundred top mathematicians, how many advance
| the field much?
| jasonshen wrote:
| I love the intent behind this letter. So often talented people
| are just below the "cut off" for whatever opportunity they are
| seeking, and they see themselves as unworthy. Some may give up,
| especially if they are young and have not had other forms of
| recognition.
|
| I think this is why YC sends notes to rejected applicants who are
| in "the top 10%" by whatever standard they are grading folks on,
| and encourage them to apply again.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| Is that message from YC truthful? I ask because I've seen a lot
| of people receiving it, probably a bias towards sharing it if
| you receive it though.
| sesm wrote:
| Assuming Gaussian distribution, how many criteria should be
| graded, so that 90% of applicants are in top 10% for at least
| one criterion?
| lupire wrote:
| There is only one overall criteria in this case.
| choppaface wrote:
| Not to mention that the "top 10%" shifts year-to-year as much
| or more than HYPS admissions.
|
| Talent _development_ requires substantive feedback, or at
| least substantial visibility into the competition versus a
| binary outcome. For example, tell Founders if they have the
| substance or right fidelity but poor sense of timing. (And
| market timing often in the hands of the VCs anyways).
|
| Without real feedback, it's much closer to a real estate
| license than an academic math program.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| The problem with development of talent is that the outcomes can
| be so variable, and the cost so high when it fails. Identifying
| the individuals that are worth investing in seems to be the most
| important skill here, but it's extremely hard to do reliably.
| Nothing in my career has ever burned worse than spending years of
| time and effort to develop someone who simply never gets it or
| gives up.
| catgary wrote:
| I don't think there's any real cost to failure in this case -
| the worst case scenario is a high school student does a bit
| more extracurricular mathematics before going into a different
| field, where they will likely still benefit from that extra
| mathematical training.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| The cost being the time and effort of a senior dev to mentor,
| which ostensibly should pay itself back as an investment over
| years. Sadly this rarely happens.
| catgary wrote:
| Right, but you get that is really nothing like coaching
| high school math students, right?
| cheema33 wrote:
| During the past 5 years I spent untold hours helping 3 junior
| devs level up in a very supporting and encouraging environment.
| In the end, it did not work. The devs were not self driven or
| motivated enough to make a difference. They would make small
| incremental improvements, but nothing that allowed them to work
| on a task independently. They have up too quickly when they ran
| into a difficult situation or immediately wanted to jump to a
| subpar solution.
|
| We had to let them go. Then we hired an experienced dev who was
| self driven and the difference is night and day. The senior dev
| costs slightly more than the junior dev.
|
| I don't think I will ever try the "talent development" approach
| again. The talent needs to do that work itself. If it is
| unwilling or unable, then so am I.
| stagger87 wrote:
| On reflection, was there anything you would have done or looked
| for differently in the 3 junior devs? Something you think would
| actually have changed your outcome? Do you blame yourself in
| any way for not being able to develop the junior devs?
|
| FWIW, I'm currently on this trajectory (as the mentor).
| flappyeagle wrote:
| I've hired, mentored, developed, and sadly fired more devs
| than I can count at this point.
|
| Activation energy cannot be trained. And that's the
| prerequisite for just about everything, especially propensity
| for improvement.
|
| We cannot develop talent in the same way pro sports teams do
| because there's not a 50x difference between what we pay and
| junior or senior dev like there is in the NBA or a 1000x
| difference like in MLB or Euro soccer
|
| The economics don't support it. That's the secret reason why
| schools matter still.
| 0xC5 wrote:
| From that experience, it makes total sense that you wouldn't
| want to work with juniors like that again.
|
| But I have the complete opposite experience. I'm a junior dev
| working on an embedded linux system, and some associated test
| applications. I have an extremely good mentor/boss who's
| helping me develop skills for those environments, and other
| associated skills that are absolutely invaluable to my career.
|
| Now the difference of course is I am highly motivated. I love
| the work I do, and because it's so enjoyable and fun, I
| absolutely take a lot of my personal time to play around with
| work-related or at least work-adjacent projects.
|
| My worry is that when I do eventually move to my next
| company/product, Ill be assigned to a manager that has had too
| many poor experiences with unmotivated juniors, and is
| unwilling to share their experience with me (in a cooperative
| manner, not just a one-sided relationship of course).
| flappyeagle wrote:
| In your next job you will be a senior dev
| lupire wrote:
| This has nothing to do with the article, which is about
| supporting talented students by providing them a venue to
| learn.
| mihaaly wrote:
| Your story is not about talent but attitude.
|
| Talent does not grow on tree on its own but in organizations
| like yours, but not everyone is destined to be a talent. Those
| without the proper attitude for becoming a talent had to be let
| go, so the outcome is the same, only arguing the conclusion.
| You had bad luck with 3 bad ones for one good, but the usual
| ratio is not too far from this actually for other
| organizations. When you find the good attitude people it is a
| joy, especially if they grow into your environment, being
| tailor made for your figure. That will even be better than the
| one reused from elsewhere. ; )
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Attitude is an important part of talent and perhaps the
| easiest to sniff out rather quickly.
| Animats wrote:
| There are organizations which develop talent in-house. Most
| military forces work that way. The Union Pacific Railroad is
| unusually explicit about it. The path to management starts by
| working in a freight yard in Chicago at 5 AM in a snowstorm.[1]
| The current CEO of Union Pacific started as a laborer in
| maintenance of way.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMViWazEYoc
| lupire wrote:
| Talent Development happens in AoPS now, via classes, books, and
| forums. Also there is a network of high-school student-run math
| contests, with older students coaching junior students. There are
| several active Discord Servers.
|
| There are paid online courses as well as free purses run by
| students, some of whom are trying to polish their resumes for
| college apps.
|
| We are in a golden age for student mathematics study.
|
| What's missing is a strong environment for youth mathematical
| research. There is a collection of summer camps, but they are too
| few and expensive.
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