[HN Gopher] A Few Notes on the Culture by Iain M Banks
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A Few Notes on the Culture by Iain M Banks
Author : Bluestein
Score : 75 points
Date : 2024-07-07 11:35 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (theculture.adactio.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (theculture.adactio.com)
| snitch182 wrote:
| One of the best series of science fiction ever.
| Bluestein wrote:
| That's very categorical. Full stop :)
|
| Must be really good.-
| gerikson wrote:
| Just decided today to re-read the entire series.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > Succinctly; socialism within, anarchy without.
|
| Great essay. I feel like I read this 20 years ago, which is the
| last time I read the Culture novels. My impression at the time,
| which remains true on reread now, is that the idea that a post-
| singularity, post-scarcity society would organize itself along
| something like socialist lines makes no sense to me, and isn't
| well-supported (by my recollection) in the novels I read. This is
| a universe where, if you want, you can just fuck off and have
| your own planet. It's a place where everything is taken care of
| for you, not through the thoughtful allocation of resources for
| mutual benefit, but because it's trivially easy for a machine to
| just give you everything you ask for. There is no need to even
| think about who owns what, because everyone can usually have what
| they want, go where they want, do what they want. I see the
| anarchy, I don't see the socialism.
| notahacker wrote:
| It's socialist in the sense that _the Minds_ could just fuck
| off and have their own corner of the galaxy, but instead devote
| processor cycles and physical presence to ensuring helpless
| little oxygen-breathers have everything they need
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| In one of the books Banks explains that the Minds were
| created with a bias to be helpful to humans, and that
| whenever they did try to create a "neutral" Mind that didn't
| specifically care about this, the first thing it would do is
| fuck right off (to another plane of existence.)
| gpderetta wrote:
| In fact in-universe the Culture is considered deviant as a
| whole by similarly advanced civilizations because, instead
| of focusing on collectively ascending as a civilization as
| it is proper, they meddle in the affairs of other
| civilizations.
| abelsson wrote:
| Economic systems of the 1800s doesn't really make sense in a
| space based, post scarcity society - economics is after all,
| the allocation of scarce resources. But I would argue that the
| ultimate aim of the socialism as envisioned by Marx wasn't
| government control over the means of production (the
| "dictatorship of the proletariat") but rather "full communism"
| where the eventual aim was to make resource allocation
| unnecessary, which in a way, does hint at a post scarcity
| society. So I can see the connection to the original Marx. Less
| so with the so-far practical implementations of socialism.
| Bluestein wrote:
| > where the eventual aim was to make resource allocation
| unnecessary,
|
| ... unnecessary _through what?_ How? I think those are
| important details ...
|
| PS. Honestly asking. Interested in how you further interpret
| Marx ...
| abelsson wrote:
| Unnecessary though productivity outpacing demand as far as
| I've understood it.
|
| In Marxism what they call "full communism" is envisioned to
| be the "final state of humanity" where productivity is
| described to be higher than the sum of needs and wants -
| everybody can help themselves to anything from the
| warehouses. Obviously very utopian, and I'm not sure there
| ever was any detailed analysis on how a society a would
| actually function in "full communism" - but I don't think
| the economics of The Culture would be that far off if you
| would describe it to someone of those views. Early Marxists
| were much a bit more practical, more focused on critiquing
| the practices of their contemporary societies than
| envisioning the details of their utopia.
| Bluestein wrote:
| > but I don't think the economics of The Culture would be
| that far off if you would describe it to someone of those
| views
|
| Seems right up their alley ...
| Bluestein wrote:
| In a way _ownership itself_ becomes obsolete.-
|
| Not by political of sociological design, but through mere
| irrelevance, obsolescence.-
|
| Interesting ...
| ein0p wrote:
| Not merely socialism, communism. I suspect this is why there
| isn't a TV series for it yet.
| arethuza wrote:
| I found the meme "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism"
| recently and thought it was hilarious (pretty sure Banks
| would have liked it as well) it does rather capture quite a
| lot about the spirit of the Culture.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Haven't gone too deep to Culture. But it does the whole post-
| scarcity thing much better than Start Trek does. When anyone
| can basically do anything they want well, apart from getting
| space ships... And it is all provided for by essence robots if
| I have understood right. Whole thing does coherently make sense
| with advanced enough technology. Where as in many other
| universes it just does not.
| huppeldepup wrote:
| We have recently developed a system that eliminates scarcity
| for all digital media. The results is not an ideological re-
| alignment but a crowbar that locks down the rules of scarcity.
| VagabundoP wrote:
| Now fast forward that by 10k years and what does it look like
| when time has worn down all those legal issues. The digital
| society is only two generations old at most.
| Ekaros wrote:
| At the same time we have not yet eliminated scarcity in other
| areas. Thus some still need digital scarcity to solve their
| physical scarcity. If physical scarcity in general was solved
| issue there would be no need to lock down digital media.
| aklemm wrote:
| Read the essay and then the series, or hold the essay for after
| reading?
| Bluestein wrote:
| Was wondering myself. Leaning towards the "least spoiler-y"
| approach :)
| sizewell wrote:
| Read the books first for sure. The essay is a bit spoiler-y.
| mdorazio wrote:
| Read _Player of Games_ , then the essay, then go back and read
| some more books in the series.
| navbaker wrote:
| I found the second book in the series, The Player of Games, much
| more explanatory about what the Culture is than the first book,
| Consider Phelbas. I enjoyed Consider Phelbas much more upon re-
| reading after I did an initial read through of the rest of the
| series than I did having that be the first book I read from him.
| stavros wrote:
| Consider Phlebas was my first book too, I liked it enough to
| read another, but I neither remember much from it nor loved it.
|
| I really liked Player of Games, and I'd like to read a few more
| books in the series. I also read the Wasp Factory, and while
| his writing is brilliant, I wasn't too captivated by the story
| itself.
| arethuza wrote:
| Some paperback editions of _The Wasp Factory_ had quotes from
| reviews included at the start alternating between _very_
| positive and _very_ negative reviews.
|
| His non-Culture non-SF works as Iain Banks deserve more
| attention I think - mind you perhaps that because I
| frequently travel across the Forth Bridge (The Bridge) and,
| as I write this, I can see Inchmickery out of the window
| (Complicity).
|
| However, my favourite has to be _Espedair Street_ - which is
| simply sublime.
| Bluestein wrote:
| > between very positive and very negative reviews.
|
| Funny that they would put _negative_ reviews on the
| paperback itself. How honest ...
| arethuza wrote:
| The Irish Time described it as "a work of unparalleled
| depravity". - though I've forgotten if that is one of the
| positive or negative reviews ;-)
| Bluestein wrote:
| > unparalleled depravity
|
| (I mean, I am sure that's _a plus_ for *somebody* :)
|
| PS. I find it funny that the Irish Times would find "post
| scarcity" depraved :)
| arethuza wrote:
| Apologies, should have been clearer there - the Wasp
| Factory is _not_ a Culture novel and isn 't even SF -
| it's about a rather troubled teenager and his unusual
| circle of family and friends.
| swdunlop wrote:
| When Iain (M.) Banks published science fiction (or essays
| about science fiction), he used "Iain M. Banks." Other
| works he used "Iain Banks."
|
| You can sometimes separate the fans and the topic by how
| they refer to him.
| navbaker wrote:
| Matter and The Hydrogen Sonata are very good, more action-
| packed stories that I thoroughly enjoyed. Surface Detail is
| also extremely good, but has some pretty dark setting and
| themes involving virtual afterlifes. If you're looking for
| something different after reading one or two of those,
| definitely check out Excession. It follows a bunch of the
| different Culture minds embedded in the various size ships as
| they investigate strange interstellar goings-on and we get to
| see the wide range of personalities the ships develop during
| their existence.
| stavros wrote:
| Ah, Excession sounds interesting, thank you. I'll read that
| one next.
| gpderetta wrote:
| From Wikipedia, quoting the book itself:
|
| "" This novel is about how the Culture deals with an
| Outside Context Problem (OCP), the kind of problem "most
| civilizations would encounter just once, and which they
| tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence
| encountered a full stop." ""
| bouvin wrote:
| I think there is a wide consensus that Consider Phlebas, though
| first, is not the ideal starting point for Banks' Culture
| series. The plot is meandering, and compared to later books, it
| is clear that Banks had not yet quite found the form that would
| be so impressive later on. I usually recommend The Player of
| Games, or alternatively, depending on the reader, Use of
| Weapons as starting points.
|
| It is however a good idea, having read other Culture books, to
| read Consider Phlebas before beginning Look to Windward, as
| there is a connection between the two.
| number6 wrote:
| Ah ... Never found into Culture. I started with Consider
| Phlebas.
|
| So Player of Games or Use of Weapons?
| arethuza wrote:
| I wouldn't recommend starting with _Use of Weapons_ - it is
| probably the best _Culture_ novel but it took me a few
| readings to really appreciate it.
|
| Edit: As far as I recall, Banks originally created the
| Culture as a background for the protagonist of UoW - the
| ultimate warrior:
|
| _" The method was that taking and bending of materials and
| people to one purpose, the outlook that everything could be
| used in the fight; that nothing could be excluded, that
| everything was a weapon, and the ability to handle those
| weapons, to find them and choose which one to aim and fire;
| that talent, that ability, that use of weapons."_
| WJW wrote:
| Player of Games was the first Culture novel I read and I
| enjoyed it a lot. I still sometimes go back and reread it
| and have found new perspectives each time. Would definitely
| recommend.
| AlexCoventry wrote:
| I would recommend starting with the novella "The State of
| the Art", FWIW. It's in an anthology of the same name.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_State_of_the_Art
| swdunlop wrote:
| It's hard for me to read the Culture novels and not hear Porno
| for Pyros' "Pets" on loop in my head.
|
| It is amusing that this essay starts with "Government" and does
| not get down to the intelligences until halfway through -- in my
| mind, it's all just the intelligences watching the funny monkeys
| play at still having meaningful role in the Culture and the
| surprising things they do at the edges of its influence.
| austinl wrote:
| If you enjoyed this essay, I would recommend reading _Why the
| Culture Wins: An Appreciation of Iain M. Banks_ by Prof. Joseph
| Heath (https://www.sciphijournal.org/index.php/2017/11/12/why-
| the-c...)
|
| Among other things, it compares the Idirans--who have what we
| consider a more traditional, modern-day culture--with the
| Culture. For example:
|
| "The war between the Idirans and the Culture is peculiarly
| asymmetrical, since the Culture is not an empire, or even a
| "polity" in any traditional sense of the term, it is simply a
| culture. It has no capital city, or even any "territory" in the
| conventional sense."
|
| I also love Heath's criticism of Dune (I appreciate the series,
| but now can't help but notice how often sci-fi series use
| regressive social structures).
|
| "In fact, modern science fiction writers have had so little to
| say about the evolution of culture and society that it has become
| a standard trope of the genre to imagine a technologically
| advanced future that contains archaic social structures. The most
| influential example of this is undoubtedly Frank Herbert's Dune,
| which imagines an advanced galactic civilization, but where
| society is dominated by warring "houses," organized as extended
| clans, all under the nominal authority of an "emperor.""
| Bluestein wrote:
| From the essay:
|
| > Indeed, Banks distinguishes himself in having thought
| carefully about the social and political consequences of
| technological development.
|
| This we need more of. In any way shape or form.-
| arethuza wrote:
| Of the spectrum of possibilities of how (if) we end up co-
| existing with AIs then anything like the Culture is
| definitely towards the positive end. Yes it can look like the
| humans in the Culture are being kept like pets - but if any
| group or individuals want to leave the Culture then they get
| support and encouragement - which isn't very pet like?
| Ekaros wrote:
| Don't some people let their cats and dogs roam free? Same
| people would probably give them some resources or tools if
| they were capable of asking.
| swdunlop wrote:
| And that is where the drama is frequently found in the
| Culture series -- when Fluffy the Pet Human meets Spot
| the Feral Human and disaster ensues.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Culture has AI. Dune doesn't.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Dune had AI and outlawed it, to be precise.
| dash2 wrote:
| I don't think Iain M. Banks is a good writer. (You can see it in
| this piece, which falls into the trap of using long words to
| sound clever.) His sci-fi has a serious flaw: it's static.
| Nothing changes, everything is inevitable, the baddies are
| predestined to lose. His characters and dialogue are bland.
|
| The books do have a strength, which is the completeness of their
| picture of the world. The concept of the Culture is interesting.
| I think it has less to do with the third dimension of space, and
| more to do with the 1990s. The Culture looks a lot like confident
| liberal democracy, pitting its advanced tech and cultural
| openness against its various (doomed) rivals. That's why a lot of
| the books seem a bit colonial: travel to a small annoying planet,
| knock some sense into the primitive authorities holding sway. And
| it also has that 1990s vibe that one side is in the right, and
| that side is always going to win.
|
| For a contrast, think of The Three Body Problem. It's set on an
| equally epic scale - but so much more happens!
| exe34 wrote:
| could you give some examples of which words you found long?
|
| if you prefer shorter words, and moral relativism, you might
| like Neal Asher's polity series.
| disparate_dan wrote:
| I'm a veteran SF reader but I only read The Culture books for
| the first time recently, and I agree with you, albeit you have
| to acknowledge their massive influence on contemporary SF. The
| Three Body Problem, though, I struggled to finish the first
| book at all, because I found the prose excruciatingly bad (or
| more properly I guess, the translation).
| arethuza wrote:
| Banks admits that the Culture itself is kind of boring because
| it is _too_ perfect - so for most of its teeming trillions
| living their hedonistic lives on their orbitals life is nice
| and safe and a bit boring to write about.
|
| So the stories _have_ to deal with the edges of the Culture and
| the mission of Contact and Special Circumstances to try and
| make the galaxy that bit nicer by direct interference.
| Bluestein wrote:
| (I mean, by definition a "solved society" must be somewhat
| boring [read, difficult] to write about ...)
| Ekaros wrote:
| You world build it one time and you are done...
| VagabundoP wrote:
| The dialogue in the English translation of Three Body Problem
| is torturous. I couldn't finish it.
|
| I've found all the Culture novels far better written.
| constantcrying wrote:
| Sci-fi almost always succeeds because it manages to present
| interesting ideas. Often the writing can be quite poor, I
| remember some Asimov novels were characters were just defined
| by a single thing that they believed.
|
| To me the culture series fails, as it has no interesting ideas.
| "What if we solved every problem", just isn't an interesting
| premise. There is no interesting conflict that can even exist
| in the setting, the only thing that the author could come up
| with were religious fanatics. But the "interesting question"
| answered there wasn't more interesting then a New Atheist
| debating some Christian.
| radley wrote:
| > For a contrast, think of The Three Body Problem. It's set on
| an equally epic scale - but so much more happens!
|
| I disagree. TBP is not nearly as epic. TBP could easily exist
| within the Culture series, but not the other way around.
| VagabundoP wrote:
| I need to finish off the last few Culture books.
|
| He is missed. It was a shock to hear he was sick. Too young.
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