[HN Gopher] Why Italy Fell Out of Love with Cilantro
___________________________________________________________________
Why Italy Fell Out of Love with Cilantro
Author : pepys
Score : 122 points
Date : 2024-07-07 05:22 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com)
| curl-up wrote:
| > In 1544, physician and botanist Pietro Andrea Mattioli
| described the leaves as smelling like bed bugs or stink bugs...
|
| Incredible that neither this, nor the other linked article, even
| mention the fact that this stink-bug/soap taste is genetically
| predetermined for some people [1], so above quote can by no means
| be taken as an argument that cilantro "became unfashionable" so
| authors started describing it negatively.
|
| Instead, the real story is probably much more interesting, as the
| changes in cilantro popularity could probably be connected to
| waves of migrations and general genetic pool changes in a
| particular place.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OR6A2
| goku12 wrote:
| This is very interesting! According to the article, the gene
| makes people either like cilantro or hate it entirely. I used
| to hate cilantro in my childhood as it smelled exactly like a
| stink bug to me. But it's the opposite in my adulthood.
| Cilantro enhances the savory taste, both in its raw and cooked
| form.
| locallost wrote:
| It's not entirely accurate. I used to hate cilantro (tried it
| first as an adult), as it does smell kind of soapy, but it
| grew on me. It's part of the taste for something like a thai
| curry. I recently planted one and thought it smelled great
| when I was watering it, soapy or not.
|
| Basil can also smell a bit like cat pee, but it's still great
| on some things.
| groestl wrote:
| Whoever says it tastes "kinda soapy" is likely do not have
| that gene variant in the first place. Because if you have
| it, it tastes like soap, full stop. Like you bite into a
| soap bar. Even a tiny bit of cilantro.
| Aerroon wrote:
| Yeah, but soap doesn't taste that bad either.
|
| Or maybe I've just gotten so used to awful taste that I
| can ignore. It's just bitter*.
|
| * I'm not sure if bitter is the correct word. In my
| native language we use the word "bitter" for things like
| beer, but there's another word for the sharper taste of
| soap, but they both seem to be translate to "bitter" in
| English. Maybe acrid is a better word?
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| The first time I had cilantro was as an adult, and I hated
| it. It tasted like dish soap.
|
| Now I actually crave it a little on _specific_ dishes:
| enchiladas, burritos, banh mi, and Pad Thai.
|
| But I wouldn't want dish soap in those dishes (I think). And
| I don't like it on its own.
| veunes wrote:
| It's fascinating how our perception of different food can
| change over time
| vasco wrote:
| To be honest that is one of the most repeated "TIL" I see on
| the internet, so I was happy to not have to read it again!
| curl-up wrote:
| I agree that it's refreshing for an article on cilantro to
| not be about that. But they make some very misleading
| implications by completely ignoring it.
| gassit wrote:
| What implications?
| curl-up wrote:
| Full quote:
|
| > Coriander leaves fell even further out of fashion than
| the seeds because their distinct flavor clashed with the
| trendy imported ingredients of the time, such as
| rosewater. In 1544, physician and botanist Pietro Andrea
| Mattioli described the leaves as smelling like bed bugs
| or stink bugs, a comparison echoed by later authors.
|
| I read this as "Cilantro fell out of fashion due to it's
| incompatibility with other popular flavors at a time, and
| since people love following recent trends, they started
| describing it in a negative way". In other words, people
| saw it as "stink-bug-like" because the fashion changed.
| This happens a lot with food (e.g. Jell-O texture now
| being repulsive to a lot of people) but in this case, it
| has nothing to do with fashion, because to a lot of
| people cilantro does actually have such taste, and this
| shift in popularity is much better explained by the shift
| in genetics.
| gassit wrote:
| But that's your implication the genetic change was
| widespread enough to effect an entire cultural change.
| What evidence is there of that?
| curl-up wrote:
| No, I am just saying that the article is omitting a very
| important fact that would go against the argument it
| implies. I am not saying that it was necessarily
| genetically driven, I am simply saying that I find it
| strange that this other perspective was not even
| mentioned, especially since this genetic predisposition
| to disliking cilantro is such a widely known fact, and
| since the author they cite chose to describe cilantro in
| exactly the way everyone with this genetic predisposition
| (including myself) chooses to describe it.
|
| If an article about the lack of dairy in east Asian
| cuisine never mentioned the high frequency of lactose
| intolerance in those regions, it would be equally
| misleading, even if there were many other factors
| resulting in this lack of dairy (primarily different
| agricultural practices).
| rsynnott wrote:
| ... I mean, coriander leaves (cilantro) was barely a
| thing at all in Ireland 50 years ago, and is now all over
| the place, primarily as a component of Indian and Mexican
| food, which are quite popular. I'm going to bet on
| fashions/familiarity, there, rather than a spate of
| sneaky gene therapy.
| morsch wrote:
| > the changes in cilantro popularity could probably be
| connected to waves of migrations and general genetic pool
| changes in a particular place
|
| It's not impossible, but without data it's pure conjecture. The
| first study I found isn't particularly supportive, unless
| there's been massive immigration from East Asia that I'm not
| aware of:
| https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/20...
| pmontra wrote:
| Well, half of my friends like cilantro, the other half say it
| tastes like dish soap. I'm in Italy and by the way I'm sowing
| it today (too late, probably.)
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| It's an acquired taste plus you have to use it with the right
| meals. Can't imagine good chunk asian meals without it. Same
| like disliking onion and garlic.
| meowface wrote:
| I think you may have falsely pattern matched this particular
| reference. I love the taste and smell of cilantro and eat it
| all the time, but the first time I encountered a stink bug I
| thought "oh, it smells like cilantro".
|
| It doesn't taste like soap to me. I think the stink bug-smell
| has no relation to the soap-taste, which is indeed caused by
| that gene. I think stink bugs' scent probably smells similar to
| cilantro for everyone without that gene.
| curl-up wrote:
| This is very interesting, thanks for pointing it out! I
| really dislike cilantro, and to me it always tasted strongly
| like stink-bugs (not that I ever tried eating one...). I
| never really understood the dish-soap reference though.
|
| So if this is correct, then the whole point of my original
| post is completely wrong. I'll have to look into this
| further.
| Modified3019 wrote:
| It definitely some kind of spectrum of response, rather
| than just either or.
|
| Cilantro to me isn't something I would generally describe
| as soapy. If it's real heavy there can be a slight soap
| aftertaste that comes through, though at that point the
| cilantro essence itself is just too much.
|
| I do find the comparison of the essence of cilantro as
| similar to stinkbugs a bit more apt. There's this hard to
| describe chemical smell that some insects give off that
| isn't cilantro exactly, but is in some sort of similar
| class. Kind of how we group sour things together.
|
| I can tolerate some cilantro without noticing much, but if
| it's heavy in a dish it'll become repulsive and ruin it.
| For me it's fine when treated like a spice, not a salad.
|
| Apparently Methoxypyrazines are found in stinkbugs and
| cilantro, and are responsible for a lot of "vegetal"
| smells.
|
| Likewise it seems that stinkbugs can give of
| "trans-2-dodecenal" [0] which I guess can be written as
| "(E)-2-dodecenal" (I am not a chemist) which is found in
| cilantro and has a chemical citrus peel type of smell. [1]
|
| [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359322168_Expr
| essio...
|
| [1] http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1005071.html
| Tagbert wrote:
| From the first time I was exposed to cilantro I thought it
| smelled like stink bugs. I don't really get the soap taste
| but I rarely eat enough to really experience that, either.
| Oddly, I liked coriander seeds long before I was exposed to
| the herb. They have a very different taste to me.
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| I would tend to agree. Cilantro does not smell like bugs to
| me. It does however taste like soap. So I always tell
| restaurants no cilantro and often end up having to pick it
| out of dishes that I didn't expect to contain it.
| bloomingeek wrote:
| For me, when I first tried cilantro, it tasted like soap
| also. This was when my wife and I discovered street tacos
| several years ago. As time went by and I used hot sauce to
| mask the cilantro, I developed a taste for it and now I
| don't mind it at all. I no longer taste soap, but a kind of
| sweetness.
| glenngillen wrote:
| Oh, that's interesting. I recall reading something years
| ago about how humans typically don't like brassicas
| because the bitterness is overwhelming. But through
| regular introduction the tastebuds have a form of
| plasticity (I forget the actual term) to them and they'll
| eventually overcome the bitterness.
|
| I wonder if the "cilantro tastes like soap" is a similar
| phenomenon.
| thfuran wrote:
| Modern cultivars produce less of the glucosinolates that
| give brussel sprouts their bitterness. I'm not sure
| whether there has been a similar change in other
| brassicas, but sprouts were the most notoriously bitter
| and now actually are less bitter than they were in the
| 70s.
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| Sounds like childhood taste preference against bitterness
| changes with susceptibility to alkaloids [1].
|
| I disliked cilantro for the same reason as a child, and I
| still have an aversion to cruciferous vegetables because
| of the saliva compound that makes them taste
| objectionable (they're also being bred to contain less
| sulfur, so Brussels sprouts today probably are better
| than you might remember them being). I can detect a very
| low threshold of even the mildest cabbage in anything,
| which has made me a target for Korean women throughout my
| life.
|
| Tasting like soap doesn't mean you can't enjoy cilantro,
| though, and while I still don't favor the fresh leaves
| plain, I use them liberally as an ingredient and dry fry
| them with the stems for my Sichuan and Mexican cooking.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4654709/
| Projectiboga wrote:
| I had something like this with potatoes but with texture
| not taste. I was in a situation where I had to eat
| potatoes, I powered through ate them slowly and that
| aversion evaporated for me after that. I'd feel a gag
| reflex from mashed potatoes, baked wasnt easy either. I'm
| insulin dependent and in the 1980's I took my whole
| insulin dose first thing in the morning. This made
| skipping meals, let alone delaying them difficult. But
| maybe that from a gene that causes it by a reflex. My mom
| didn't like beans her entire life, same issue different
| starchy food, she was fine with potatoes.
| qwery wrote:
| I love coriander. I didn't like it when I first encountered
| it and if pressed would have probably adopted any negative
| description of it. I doubt I would have described it as soap-
| like[herbalessence] or stink buggy without being "primed"
| though. I don't know where you get your stink bugs from,
| maybe stink bugs vary around the world[daftpunk]?
|
| I'm not disputing the genetic thing here, by the way. It's
| just interesting in general and in how knowledge of the fact
| changes how people talk about taste[sense].
|
| When people like the flavour, they can generally just do so.
| You can say "I like coriander" without justification, but "I
| hate coriander" is a statement that requires justification
| (apparently).
|
| Wikipedia's explanation tells me that the flavour of
| coriander is actually -- chemically -- like soap in some
| sense, it's just that there's a genetic variation that
| determines if you like that or not. Citation needed, of
| course.
|
| Maybe the flavour of coriander is actually like soap. And the
| people who like coriander are simply the people who like
| soap? Anyone who denies the similarity between the two is
| lying because they don't want to be seen as a soap-muncher.
|
| Soap-muncher.
|
| [herbalessence] Which soap anyway? As I'm sure you know, most
| "soap" today isn't what people called "soap" decades ago.
| Maybe some people even have coriander scented soap.
|
| [daftpunk] All the stink bugs I know live along the eastern
| coast of Australia.
|
| [sense] Taste here means both what food tastes like and
| general having of preferences with or without reasoning.
| kurthr wrote:
| On the one hand, I think hate vs like does require some
| sort of justification. You can like something without
| really caring, but hate means that you REALLY care.
|
| I can barely tolerate cilantro, because I grew up with it
| in salsas and sauces. At the same time I can and will pick
| 1mm specks out of a sauce, if there aren't very many. Many
| people who "like" cilantro, often don't even notice it's
| presence, while I will immediately notice even tiny
| amounts. People confuse it for parsley? Bleagh!
|
| I had never heard the stink bug smell correlation, and
| though I agree it is similar, the strong soapy stevia like
| taste is just much worse compared to the smell, which I can
| tolerate.
| kosolam wrote:
| Mind if I ask, how did you encounter the taste of a
| soap?? It boggles my mind, can there be so many people
| tasting soap?
| eddd-ddde wrote:
| I don't remember when's the last time I tasted soap, but
| it's just something you don't forget.
|
| At least in one of my chem classes we where taught bases
| vs acids and we definitely tasted soap then.
|
| Also, showering.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| I do. It was around 1955 when I was 7 years old. I said a
| bad word and my mother literally took a bar of soap and
| shoved it in my mouth. I still vividly recall how
| horrible it tasted and felt.
| cozzyd wrote:
| Ever not rinsed a glass enough after washing it?
| DidYaWipe wrote:
| Ever had beer?
| qwery wrote:
| That's fair enough, I probably should have contrasted
| 'love' vs. 'hate'. The difference in magnitude wasn't
| intentional.
|
| I meant to point out that the negative is more often
| treated as "wrong" or _something to fix_ while the
| positive is more often simply accepted. I think this is
| true in general, at least in western /english
| conversation. But the coriander conversation is notable
| because apathy or plain dislike for the flavour can be
| "backed up" with the definitely true genetic explanation.
| Although in that sense, you actually "can't not like
| coriander".
| emidln wrote:
| As an aside, why add footnotes with misc words/brands
| rather than numbers?
| gopher_space wrote:
| It's a fun style of writing OP probably grew up reading,
| Terry Pratchett is a good example. They're asides.
| qwery wrote:
| Happy to answer, I hope this quick list will be
| satisfactory despite its messiness:
|
| - numbers make the order (more) significant, making
| reordering the text more costly
|
| - compared to numbers, words are often easier to spot and
| jump to
|
| - compared to numbers, the words have some connection to
| the point (not saying I do this perfectly!) so you don't
| have to remember which (number) footnote you were looking
| for
|
| - ADHD
|
| - herbalessence because coriander is a herb, and _Maybe
| some people even have coriander scented soap_
|
| - daftpunk because 'Around the World (around the world)'
| tines wrote:
| > I doubt I would have described it as soap-
| like[herbalessence] or stink buggy without being "primed"
| though.
|
| I thought this way until a few days ago, when I smelled
| some new soap in the shower and the thought popped unbidden
| into my head, "Man, this smells like cilantro!"
| mekoka wrote:
| > Wikipedia's explanation tells me that the flavour of
| coriander is actually -- chemically -- like soap in some
| sense [...]
|
| > Maybe the flavour of coriander is actually like soap
| [...]
|
| What the Wikipedia article says is that coriander contains
| some aldehydes, which _some_ people find to taste like
| soap, based on genetics. I tried to find whether the taste
| of actual soap is also caused by the same aldehydes. As far
| as I can tell, there 's no chemical link. Soap has
| different chemical compounds, which most people seem to
| identify as "taste of soap", regardless of their
| appreciation for coriander.
|
| Also, based on the reported percentages, it's literally
| abnormal (i.e. not in the norm) to taste soap in coriander.
| That easily explains why someone would need to justify
| their distaste for it. Up until 10 years ago, I had never
| heard of this coriander/soap relation, so the first person
| I encountered with this predisposition was met with
| puzzlement. Then I met another, and now before adding
| coriander to a dish, I make sure that everyone agrees with
| it.
| nox101 wrote:
| Is the stink bug smell thing a different gene than the taste
| gene? Cilantro just tastes like another leafy vegetable to
| me. Sure it's unique but zero negative anything. I had a pile
| of it yesterday at a Mexican restaurant. I've had cilantro
| salad at several restaurants in Japan as well.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=%E3%83%91%E3%82%AF%E3%83%81%.
| ..
| cassepipe wrote:
| I think MinuteFood settled it :
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZtPynXsFas
| the__alchemist wrote:
| I am guessing that _stink bug_ can be categorized with bitter
| almonds, formaldehyde, and ammonia: Scent analogies that are
| not as universal as their users imagine!
| felipemnoa wrote:
| I know how stink bugs smell and I know how cilantro smells.
| Never once did I think that they smelled like each other.
| Could it be a difference in stink bugs? Also, never has it
| ever tasted like soap to me.
| hnbad wrote:
| I think the "it was native and abundant so nobody used it
| because it didn't demonstrate wealth" explanation is far more
| plausible given that the same can be observed with many native
| plants and spices in other parts of Europe.
|
| TFA mentions that spices were categorized as "sweet or strong"
| and given that coriander was seen as "strong" it competed with
| fancier imports. This preference likely "trickled down" making
| the spice seem less appealing to the masses, especially with
| increased social mobility in more recent history.
| m463 wrote:
| I think a hunk of ginger in some food tastes like soap.
| rpeden wrote:
| I vaguely remember reading something similar about stevia.
|
| Anecdotally, I know some people who think it's a tasty
| sweetener, but for me it just tastes bitter and awful. When I
| add it to coffee, it ends up tasting like I added a mixture of
| Splenda and powdered graphite.
| OJFord wrote:
| Isn't Splenda also a sweetener? Or is Stevia supposedly so
| much better that you're saying to you it tastes like a worse
| sweetener plus graphite, or something?
| peeters wrote:
| I think they're saying it does the job of making it taste
| sweet (artificially anyway) but comes with an unpleasant
| flavour.
| rpeden wrote:
| Right - that's what I was getting at.
|
| I find stevia tastes like what I'd get if I took that
| wood + yellow paint + HB graphite taste I used to get
| when I absentmindedly chewed the end of my pencil in
| elementary school and then mixed in some Splenda.
| jfengel wrote:
| Stevia in its pure form is quite bitter and awful. The stevia
| sweetened products you get are chock full of bitter blockers.
| Some people still tolerate it better than others.
|
| I'm not sure if there's a genetic link or if it's just what
| you're used to.
| bloomingeek wrote:
| I really tied to adopt stevia into my diet, gave it several
| months, however the rumbling in my stomach turned me away
| from it. I also experienced some discomfort in the upper
| intestinal area. When I looked up stevia before trying it,
| there were warnings some could experience these symptoms.
| educasean wrote:
| I keep hearing this, but my personal experience refutes this. I
| first encountered cilantro at the age of 15 and I immediately
| thought my soup bowl has unwashed soap in it. I did not eat
| cilantro-included dishes for years after, but fast forward 2
| decades and I love cilantro now. I can't really detect the
| soapyness that once bothered me so much.
|
| I don't think cilantro preferences are as set in stone as the
| story alludes.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I hope not. I can't stand cilantro. Even a tiny amount
| renders food completely inedible to me. I wouldn't say it
| tastes like soap to me (although the first time I heard that,
| I understood). It tastes more like strongly-flavored dust.
|
| I hate this fact because cilantro has become fashionable and
| has made eating out into a bit of a gamble. I'd be thrilled
| if I started liking it, or at least stopped hating it so
| much.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I'm so confused.
|
| Is this whole thread about fresh cilantro leaves/stems, as
| I thought?
|
| Or the ground form of its seeds which is totally different
| and generally called coriander? (At least in the US.)
|
| Just because I've never heard of anyone refer to any kind
| of leaf as tasting like "dust".
|
| And I thought the "soapy" thing was exclusively a reaction
| to the leaves, not ground coriander.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Where I'm from we call the leaves coriander too.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Are you in the US? Just curious if there's regional
| variation in e.g. supermarket labeling.
|
| Because if you look at nationwide labeling, cilantro
| seems to refer exclusively to the leaves, and coriander
| exclusively to the seeds, and I've never seen anything
| different within the US:
|
| https://www.target.com/s?searchTerm=cilantro
|
| https://www.target.com/s?searchTerm=coriander
|
| https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/search?text=cilantro
|
| https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/search?text=coriander
|
| And if both terms can be used for the leaves, is there
| anywhere that calls the ground seeds cilantro?
| wkat4242 wrote:
| No I'm in Europe. In the Netherlands we call the fresh
| herb coriander too, the term Cilantro doesn't exist. I
| think it's the same in Spain though it's a bit murkier
| there due to many Mexican restaurants calling it
| Cilantro.
|
| I think in Ireland they called everything coriander too
| though i don't recall exactly. But I'd never heard the
| term Cilantro till i went to a Mexican restaurant in
| Spain :)
| raffraffraff wrote:
| Yep, in Ireland it's coriander leaves and coriander
| seeds.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| It's weird, I find the taste really fresh and fruity <3
| crystal_revenge wrote:
| People take genetic determinism _way_ too seriously, and that
| original "Why Cilantro Tastes Like Soap" NYT article has been
| aggressively misused to justify a generation of picky eaters.
| It's tragic how many people miss out on an incredible food
| because they believe it is their genetic destiny to never like
| it.
|
| That genetic predisposition only really matters for your first
| exposures to cilantro. I used to _abhor_ the taste and found if
| completely vile, but after having more friends from cilantro
| heavy cultures I kept trying it, and trying it and trying it.
|
| It went from horrid to okay, and the from okay to one of my
| favorite tastes. You don't need "general genetic pool changes"
| in order for cilantro to become more widely adopted, you just
| need enough people who like it to encourage those who initially
| don't to give it a few more tries.
|
| If you're someone who genuinely likes exploring new foods and
| flavors and have let that silly article convince you that you
| are doomed to never enjoy cilantro, keep exploring, you'll find
| reward. If you're a picky-eater, that's fine, just tone down on
| the genetic determinism.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| I'm sure most people's reaction to the discovery that
| cilantro taste is genetically determined simply think "Oh, so
| I'm not crazy for disliking it" and they move on in life
| rather than lean heavy into genetic determinism like you
| claim.
|
| This kinda seems like you giving yourself too hardy of a pat
| on the back for grinding cilantro.
| samatman wrote:
| > _It went from horrid to okay, and the from okay to one of
| my favorite tastes._
|
| On the one hand, congratulations, it's good to develop a
| palate for something even if you're operating on hard mode.
|
| On the other hand, and I can't emphasize this enough, I have
| always found cilantro delicious, even as a young child. There
| are tastes I've acquired through diligence, olives for
| example, but cilantro? Never, I love the stuff.
|
| The genetic propensity here is real.
| atmosx wrote:
| > says Karima Moyer-Nocchi, a culinary historian
|
| What a fascinating profession. In Italy of all places! My guess
| is they are sought after at cocktail parties.
| wheels wrote:
| In general, most cuisines and culinary trends are far more modern
| than we tend to assume. Until the last 3-ish centuries:
|
| Italy didn't have tomatoes or basil. Nor was there corn for
| polenta. India didn't have chilies. The Irish and Germans didn't
| have potatoes.
| ginko wrote:
| > The Irish and Germans didn't have potatoes.
|
| True, but fwiw I wouldn't consider potato to be particularly
| important in German cuisine. Sure you'll see it used quite a
| bit, but many of the more iconic dishes don't really need them
| or can be replaced like with bread dumplings for instance.
| jajko wrote:
| The more east you go from Germany, the more important
| potatoes are to general population. Especially in the past,
| but even now they are more popular as side dish compared to
| ie rice or pasta, maybe due to bigger 'filling the stomach'
| effect that also lasts longer.
| bleakenthusiasm wrote:
| Also rice doesn't grow anywhere near Germany. Today that's
| not really s factor anymore, because it's so easy to shop,
| but my parents both grew up sticking very much to a local
| and seasonal approach to cooking, because everything else
| was new to them. They eat what they always knew best, so
| 5-6 days of the week the starchy side were potatoes. Rice
| is way more filling by transportation effort, but potatoes
| have been around their entire lives and in my dad's case
| also what his parents grew on their farm.
| hnbad wrote:
| On a related note: German beans are different. You'll
| find canned kidney beans everywhere because combining
| them with sweet corn, bell peppers and onions with a
| seasoning overpowered by vinegar is a popular cheap side
| salad (often called "Mexico salad") and you'll find Heinz
| beans in tomato sauce but otherwise it's white beans or
| green beans.
|
| I was happy to discover canned pinto beans at my local
| supermarket but they were only available in a hot tomato
| sauce (branded as "chilli beans") - I only just found out
| the overpriced exotic Italian _Wachtelbohnen_ collecting
| dust in the shelf next to them are pinto beans too.
|
| Heck, I'm nearly 40 and I've met Germans my age who were
| intrigued (or put off) by couscous because it's so exotic
| and they've never tried it before. I've talked to people
| running kebab joints ( _Donerbuden_ ) who said that they
| stopped offering lamb meat because the Germans didn't buy
| it and the few Turkish and Arab people who frequented
| them weren't enough to justify the overhead.
| rico_0803 wrote:
| What German did you meet, that didnt know couscous?
| Granted, im a fair bit younger, but all of my friends and
| family know couscous and eat it fairly regularly (im
| german too). Which is to say: couscous is very well known
| in germany in general
| wheels wrote:
| Just on a practical note, if you're looking to buy dry
| beans in Germany, every Turkish supermarket has a whole
| aisle dedicated to them. You can get a couple dozen kinds
| of dry beans there, including pinto. Most organic grocery
| stores have them too, but for 3x the price.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| Potatoes play a major role in german cuisine, a fact that
| you can also observe through architecture by looking at old
| houses or farms in Germany: The "Kartoffelkeller" (="potato
| cellar") is a common storage room under a house with no
| windows/light, for long term storage of potatoes after the
| harvest. Often there would be slides under trapdoors to be
| accesible from outside the house, so you can fill the
| cellar with the potato harvest right from the tractor.
| People would get their basements filled to have enough
| potatoes to make it through the winter.
|
| Another cultural fact: "Kartoffelferien" (="potato
| holidays") are still used by some elderly to describe the
| school holidays around october, because children needed to
| help with the potato harvest around that time.
| hnbad wrote:
| Yes, they can be substituted but they're definitely a staple
| in good German _Hausmannskost_. Maybe not so much in the
| South: Swabia subsists almost entirely on _Spatzle_ noodles
| and Bavarians seem to prefer various kinds of _Knodel_.
|
| But a good Rhineland _Sauerbraten_ for example would normally
| be served with potatoes and a good _Bauernomelette_ demands
| some crispy fried potato slices as well. _Semmelknodel_ (but
| also often offered alongside potato dumplings) are a more
| common sight at special occasions or buffets. Many a young
| family 's weekly rotation features spinach, fried eggs and
| potato mash alongside fish sticks, fried potatos with fried
| eggs and onions are a popular hearty lunch or late breakfast,
| and cooked potatos or mash are the default addition to some
| meat or sausage to the point a common microwave TV dinner
| still consists of Nuremberg sausages, sauerkraut and mash.
| micwag wrote:
| > Yes, they can be substituted but they're definitely a
| staple in good German Hausmannskost. Maybe not so much in
| the South: Swabia subsists almost entirely on Spatzle
| noodles and Bavarians seem to prefer various kinds of
| Knodel.
|
| While the classic northern "Salzkartoffeln" are basically
| non existent in Swabia, potatoes in general play a big role
| in traditional Swabian cuisine. Whether its "Schupfnudeln"
| (finger noodles), as salad, Knodel, fried potatoe slices,
| Hitzkuchen/Blootz/Dinnete (Pizza with potatoes instead of
| tomatoe/cheese), Kachelessen/Griebaschnecken/Schlanganger
| (various potatoe and milk dishes), Gaisburger Marsch
| (stew), "sour eggs" (potatoes and eggs in a vinegar sauce).
|
| But unfortunately most of those dishes are not really
| cooked anymore. (For "sour eggs" thats a good thing, this
| tasteless sour graybrown dish can die in hell for all I
| care.)
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| In 2012 I was on the Tyrol valley near the Austrian
| Italian border, and IIRC the small restaurant we visited
| had potato pizza on its menu.
| 9dev wrote:
| As a fellow southern German - is it really surprising?
| Pretty much all traditional dishes are just so heavy,
| there's only about two days of fall when I'm in the mood
| to eat anything like that. Also, pretty much any
| traditional German main course is meat-based.
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| You forgot Kartoffelsalat, which is a traditional dish both
| in Bavaria and Swabia (and beyond).
| agys wrote:
| Your list now makes me want to try to cook some german
| dishes! Thanks!
| morsch wrote:
| I tried to find some data, and I have to say I'm surprised
| how low potato consumption is in Germany[1]: 59 kg per capita
| per year. Metaphorically unfocusing my eyes while looking at
| the linked map, that seems like it's about average for
| Europe.
|
| Another, more recent, statistic[2] bears this out, 54 kg, and
| also has surprising (to me) details. Of those 54 kg, fully
| two-thirds -- 38 kg -- are processed potatoes (the article
| names potato chips/crisps, ready-to-eat potato salad and, of
| course, fries) and just 16 kg are "real" fresh potatoes.
|
| Finally, things used to be different[3]: in 1950, the per-
| capita consumption was 186 kg!
|
| [1] https://landgeist.com/2021/12/21/potato-consumption-in-
| europ... attributed to FAO
|
| [2] https://www.bmel-
| statistik.de/ernaehrung/versorgungsbilanzen... German dept.
| of agriculture
|
| [3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/539799/per-capita-
| consum... it doesn't say, but I doubt people were eating a
| lot of potato chips in 1950 Germany
| wheels wrote:
| A contributing factor in that is that Germans eat less and
| less traditionally German food. I'm wondering if fries are
| counted among the processed potatoes (I suspect so), as
| those are seemingly - like in many places - the most
| commonly observed form of potatoes.
| icelancer wrote:
| Yeah, I always find this fact + people saying "America" has no
| unique food culture to be quite funny in tandem.
|
| Of course the United States does have unique food culture
| beyond that juxtaposition, but still.
| Footingerm wrote:
| But its true.
|
| Europe has a refined food history even if certain foods are
| young. There was some type of pizza before and it evolved in
| what pizza is today.
|
| Alone the amount of cheese types is huge.
|
| What did the USA invent in comparision? What is specific to
| USA? Even plenty of typical USA Food was invented in Europe.
| Almondsetat wrote:
| What is there to "invent" exactly?
|
| First of all, humans invent recipes based on the locally
| available raw foods, nothing special about that. Secondly,
| humans reinvent the same recipes time after time because we
| are all the same. Each culture invents their own stuffed
| dumplings, flat bread with toppings, etc. and they believe
| it's soooo unique and local
| darkwater wrote:
| Your strokes are too broad.
|
| Obviously different groups of humans in different times
| and locations are going to invent similar foods. But, for
| example speaking of flat bread, how you actually execute
| it and the differences in texture, thickness,
| crunchiness, what you put on top of it and what order can
| make two dishes that are the same macro idea but end up
| as two completely different things.
| Almondsetat wrote:
| Cooking something for 15 minutes more or 15 minutes less
| can cause massive differences in texture and taste, and
| we are not even talking about the potentially big
| differences that having slightly different ingredients
| can cause.
| sva_ wrote:
| And curiously most older cultures have their own
| fermented food.
| veunes wrote:
| Yep! Fermented foods have been a cornerstone of
| traditional diets in many cultures (Kimchi)
| rapsey wrote:
| > What did the USA invent in comparision? What is specific
| to USA? Even plenty of typical USA Food was invented in
| Europe.
|
| Low and slow style BBQ
| ToxicMegacolon wrote:
| Barbeque originated in the Caribbean
| rapsey wrote:
| Oh they were the first to cook meat on fire were they. /s
| TeaBrain wrote:
| The regional BBQ culture of different sauces and meats in
| the US has nothing to do with what the word was used to
| describe in the Caribbean. What was described as BBQ
| hundreds of years ago in the Caribbean, as a way of
| cooking fish, wouldn't even be considered BBQ in the US.
| anon373839 wrote:
| > What did the USA invent in comparison?
|
| Well, there's California cuisine: https://guide.michelin.co
| m/sg/en/article/features/california...
| hnbad wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tex-Mex would be an obvious
| candidate?
|
| I'm not sure how you'd make a claim like "plenty of typical
| XYZ food was invented elsewhere" when all food is similar
| to or a variation of or build upon something that came
| before unless we literally evolve new ways of ingesting
| nutrients.
| akdor1154 wrote:
| > What did the USA invent in comparision?
|
| Clamato juice?
| api_or_ipa wrote:
| Canadians have elevated Clamato juice with the Caesar,
| the purest nectar of the gods. Mexicans come close with
| micheladas and Americans have bloody Mary's but nothing
| compares to a proper Caesar.
|
| I think I might need to have one today.
| brianfryer wrote:
| Cajun cuisine and multiple types of BBQ come to mind.
| jogjayr wrote:
| Breakfast cereals, hot dogs, hamburgers, toaster pastries,
| hot pockets, cornbread, jambalaya, grits, cranberry sauce,
| jerky, the chocolate chip cookie, pumpkin pie, the waffle
| ice cream cone, milkshakes, Coca-cola, peanut butter
| (although I learned today the first peanut butter patent
| was issued to a Canadian in Montreal).
|
| Some of these were invented in North America, but before
| the USA was founded. If you do some research you can find
| much more.
|
| It amounts to a considerable contribution to the culinary
| arts. Chocolate chip cookies alone are worthy of a lifetime
| achievement award.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Louisiana really is this country's best kept secret.
| jltsiren wrote:
| While most of the others sound North American, jerky is
| not. Dried meat is a pretty universal concept, and jerky
| specifically is something Europeans got from the Inca.
| Even the word itself is borrowed from Quechua.
| jogjayr wrote:
| Thanks!
|
| > Dried meat is a pretty universal concept
|
| Irrelevant in my opinion. Putting something on bread has
| probably existed since the day after someone invented
| bread. But we still give Italy credit for inventing
| pizza. Just like startups, the implementation is more
| important than the idea.
| Footingerm wrote:
| Early version of hot dog was invented in germany
| Hamburger might also been created in germany
|
| Cornbread: Native Americans
|
| I give you breakfast cereals, toaster pastries, hot
| pockets, grits, pumpkin pie, milkshake.
|
| Coca-cola? do we now start to listen all types of drink
| recipetes?
|
| So pure cultural, usa invented easy foods. This has very
| little to do with cultural foods like cheese, or the
| million types of sausages and breads and etc.
|
| It does not amount to a considerable contribution to the
| culinary arts
| dahart wrote:
| "American cooks and chefs have substantially altered
| these dishes over the years, to the degree that the
| dishes now enjoyed around the world are considered to be
| American. Hot dogs and hamburgers are both based on
| traditional German dishes, but in their modern popular
| form they can be reasonably considered American dishes."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_cuisine#Ethnic_inf
| lue...
|
| The list of US-specific and US-influenced food is pretty
| long, and includes lots of 'slow' foods. Why are you
| basing your argument on cherry picking from an incomplete
| list of examples?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_foods
|
| And what do you mean that so-called 'easy food' isn't a
| contribution to food culture? It's trending globally (for
| better or worse), and relates closely to food supply
| economics.
|
| > Cornbread: Native Americans
|
| Native American foods count, why wouldn't they?
|
| > This has very little to do with cultural foods like
| cheese
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_cheeses
| jogjayr wrote:
| Inventing Coke, toaster pastries, and breakfast cereals
| was neither quick, nor easy. And drinks are a part of
| cuisine. If we can't count Coke, we also can't include
| French wine-making or German brewing.
|
| What's a "cultural food"?
| 9dev wrote:
| Not that GPs point is particularly convincing, but are we
| really comparing the mastery of wine making and beer
| brewing to Coca Cola now, in a discussion on culinary
| culture..? That's like comparing Fox News to Tolstoi.
| OJFord wrote:
| Fwiw I'm not American and get a good laugh out of
| /r/shitamericanssay sometimes, but I can think of: 'tex-
| mex', California roll sushi, deep dish pizza, bagels as
| sandwiches (I think? Not the bagel itself, but using it as
| a bun), different uses of okra than I'm aware of elsewhere
| like stewed/chowders/soup, some of that stuff in the south
| in general actually spicy shellfish chowders etc. I think
| there's a good argument is evolved from what came before it
| elsewhere.
| PestoDiRucola wrote:
| > Nor was there corn for polenta
|
| Before corn, polenta was made with barley:
| https://historicalitaliancooking.home.blog/english/recipes/a...
| antisthenes wrote:
| In my mind, polenta was just another word for porridge, which
| means it could be made with literally any available grain.
|
| It's just a roughly milled grain, boiled until a certain
| consistency.
| fuzztester wrote:
| AFAIK India didn't have corn either. Like chilies and potatoes
| and a few other plants, it came from the Americas.
| steveoscaro wrote:
| And the list goes on of the food products that only existed
| in the Americas - chocolate, coffee, hot peppers.
|
| But of course it goes both ways. I just had traditional
| breakfast in an isolated Zapotec village in Mexico. But of
| course the cheese wasn't part of it until the Spaniards
| arrived.
| wincy wrote:
| You're off on coffee, a few months ago I too assumed it
| came from the Americas because it grows so well here, but
| was surprised to learn it's actually an old world thing.
|
| https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/History-of-Coffee
| asveikau wrote:
| The name coming from Arabic is a big hint. And then the
| species called _C. arabica_.
| fuzztester wrote:
| Coffee came from Ethiopian highlands, according to
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee
| umeshunni wrote:
| Article on Indian food before modern European contact:
|
| https://contingentmagazine.org/2020/06/25/curry-before-
| colum...
| triceratops wrote:
| The article focuses quite a bit on asfoetida, but makes no
| mention of peppercorns which are native to India. When
| Europeans sailed to India for spices, they weren't going an
| asfoetida or turmeric run. It was pepper they sought (and I
| guess cinnamon, nutmeg, and cloves too - though some of
| those might be from Indonesia idk).
|
| I always assumed pre-Columbian Indian food had fieriness
| and heat from pepper (bite into a whole peppercorn - it's
| plenty fiery), so there was a pre-existing cultural
| affinity for that flavor. This to me explained the rapid
| assimilation of chilli peppers into virtually every
| regional Indian cuisine.
| fuzztester wrote:
| also long pepper, which is supposed to be hotter than
| pepper. called piper longum.
|
| some of the spices you mention were originally from the
| Malacca area, but were later grown in South India as
| well.
| fuzztester wrote:
| And interestingly, many of them are from the nightshade
| family, the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanaceae .
| annexrichmond wrote:
| India also didn't have tomatoes until it was brought over by
| the Portuguese, at least this is what I learned in my travels
| there.
| veunes wrote:
| The history of global cuisines is a testament to the dynamic
| nature of food culture
| worstspotgain wrote:
| I'm somewhat surprised that the article's list of conjectures
| didn't include one: that Italian Parsley may have just been
| viewed as superior for all use cases (which IMHO it kinda is,
| outside of Mexican recipes.)
| hrkfmud50k wrote:
| Don't forget asian food!
|
| I feel the opposite: Cilantro is superior in all cases except
| perhaps Italian food, and even Italian food I am skeptical that
| Cilantro could be better if not for a bias from tradition.
|
| Parsley tastes so bitter and one-dimensional and you have to
| remove the leaves from the stem, whereas Cilantro is aromatic,
| fresh, and you can eat the stems making it trivial to prepare.
| I even go so far as to substitute cilantro for leafy greens in
| salad.
| wheels wrote:
| That's a pretty bonkers statement. Cilantro is much more used
| worldwide (by about an order of magnitude). They look very
| similar, but don't taste anything alike. You might as well say
| basil is better than oregano. It's just not a very meaningful
| statement.
|
| In a lot of the world flavor is about stacking complex flavors
| to get a melange of them. With the establishment of the top end
| of European cooking as French haute cuisine, there was instead
| an emphasis on simple, clear flavors. In that style, parsley,
| as a much more subtle herb, shines.
| worstspotgain wrote:
| I didn't say they had the same taste (though they're way
| closer than basil and oregano.) The question is whether the
| ancient Cilantro recipes that the article posits became
| Italian Parsley recipes.
|
| Subtlety gets evened out by different preparation techniques.
| IMHO, when used raw, finely chopped Italian Parsley is at
| least as intense as coarsely chopped Cilantro.
| croisillon wrote:
| "medieval Italians divided spices into two categories: sweet and
| strong"
|
| it's funny because german language sometimes has this division as
| well: suss and pikant ; although pikant in a modern sense means a
| bit spicy
| PestoDiRucola wrote:
| It's the same in modern Italian: dolce (sweet) and piccante
| (spicy/strong)
| Havoc wrote:
| I have that silly gene that makes Cilantro taste like soap so the
| less cilantro is in food the better for me.
|
| And yeah, tastes distinctly and strongly like soap.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OR6A2
| n2j3 wrote:
| s/Italy/Greece. Virtually absent from mainstream cuisine
| OJFord wrote:
| Leaves maybe, the seeds are certainly used? And the leaves at
| least in dolmades comes to mind (not the vine leaf wrap
| obviously, but in the rice inside)?
| petre wrote:
| The leaves taste like dishwashing shampoo. But the seeds are
| great. We mix them with green and black pepper.
| swasheck wrote:
| didn't read tfa but my daughter has always hated cilantro saying
| it tasted like stink bugs. about 12 here's ago she was diagnosed
| with celiac disease. It was kind of crippling as a family to
| figure out how we could holiday together outside of packaging and
| carrying along foods. We discovered Italy is extremely celiac
| friendly as it is a nationally recognized disease.
|
| I wonder if there's any correlation between celiac and or related
| auto immune diseases and celiac palate.
| philiplu wrote:
| Diagnosed celiac here, though a fairly mild case - blood test
| detected it 16 years ago, age 48, but I don't know if I've been
| hit with gluten, though celiac explains why I'm several inches
| shorter than my brothers and have bone density issues.
|
| Anyway, I love fresh cilantro leaves in food, though it was an
| acquired taste. So probably no relationship to celiac.
|
| One interesting off-topic datapoint about my diagnosis. I love
| asparagus, and remember I used to smell "asparagus urine" when
| I was young, but hadn't for decades. After going gluten-free
| that typical smell in my urine returned, leading me to believe
| my celiac diagnosis was accurate and my gut was repairing
| itself.
| miguel_rdp wrote:
| In Portugal it's used quite a lot in the south in pork dishes, in
| a kind of bread soup (acorda) and also in a famous clam dish
| (bulhao pato-style clams). In the north it was very hard to find
| until 2 or 3 decades ago, and parsley is used a lot more.
| OutOfHere wrote:
| It's entirely their loss. Coriander/cilantro is very good for
| sound mental health. Refer to PMC10385770.
|
| If you complain of a soapy taste, you're either using it wrong,
| or it's your genes, possibly both.
| temporarely wrote:
| > PMC10385770
|
| TIL, thanks for this!
| karaterobot wrote:
| The article doesn't really answer the "why" part. Basically, it
| sounds like there were a lot of small things, mostly changing
| culinary influences. Of course, that doesn't answer the question
| of why they lost their taste for cilantro but not other herbs.
| Don't get me wrong, I liked learning the history, but it's a bad
| headline.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Coriander, if you forgot what cilantro is.
| zeristor wrote:
| I just came here to say "Coriander"
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