[HN Gopher] Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabric...
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Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and
manipulation
Author : zaik
Score : 102 points
Date : 2024-07-05 19:39 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.skeptic.org.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.skeptic.org.uk)
| pixelpoet wrote:
| I wish more German doctors would acknowledge what utter quackery
| homeopathy is. Three separate doctors wanted to prescribe me
| homeopathy stuff last year, ended up not getting any help at all.
| Joeri wrote:
| I think doctors do this when they want to give you a placebo.
| Pharmacies don't carry placebos but they sure do carry a lot of
| products that don't do anything except make you believe you
| took some medicine.
| Angostura wrote:
| Hence the note that UK GPs would sometimes put on patient's
| notes: TEETH
|
| Tried Everything Else Try Homeopathy
| sgerenser wrote:
| In the U.S., _sometimes_ a medicine is marked as "homeopathic"
| just to avoid regulation, and actually does contain a real
| active ingredient. This is the case with zinc lozenges (for
| colds), which contain an actual therapeutic dose of zinc but
| are presumably marketed as "homeopathic" since the FDA doesn't
| regulate herbal or homeopathic "treatments." Not sure if
| anything like that happens in Germany as well though.
| gwd wrote:
| Is that "homeopathic" or "herbal / dietary supplement"?
| TillE wrote:
| I like the German doctors who offer acupuncture and
| aromatherapy and such. It's just as nonsensical, but at least
| it's probably relaxing.
| quitit wrote:
| Discussions I have with doctors and pharmacists about this
| situation are generally unproductive. There is this pervasive
| resistance to change and deep ties to traditional approaches.
|
| A large chunk of the problem is that many common self-selection
| and over-the-counter medications are only by a doctor's
| prescription in German speaking countries.
|
| Low risk medications, which in other countries a consumer can
| safely select and administer, are only available over-the-
| counter at pharmacies, other low risk medications require a
| script - examples of these include basic pain medication(OTC),
| NSAIDs(RX), PPIs(RX), skin treatments(OTC), anti-fungals(RX),
| anti-biotic drops(RX). Pharmacies also generally have short
| hours on Saturday, and are not open on Sundays.
|
| Combining these factors leads to people seeking out a
| "solution", and those "solutions" are either homeopathic or
| merely just alcohol, since neither require a health care
| professional's assistance. There is also no shortage of
| homeopathic stores that promise therapeutic benefits, such as
| addressing fertility issues and chronic pain. Regulators
| regulate medicine, so non-medicines often fly under the radar,
| even when they're promoting medical therapies.
|
| There's so many ways that this system fails in comparison to
| modern approaches:
|
| Should a woman not have a sufficient stock of pain killers on a
| sunday during period cramps, her options would be to either beg
| a neighbour, or got to the emergency department of a hospital.
| In other countries, she could simply visit a supermarket or
| convenience store.
|
| Children with head lice can't receive a treatment without a
| doctor's prescription, but there's no shortage of proven
| ineffective products stocking pharmacy shelves, hoping that
| some desperate parent will buy it just to see if it works.
|
| A person with conjunctivitis needs to first visit a doctor,
| potentially waiting hours just to get the script, then hope
| that the pharmacy is still open. (Doctor's offices are
| frequently bogged down with people visiting for minor ailments
| because they can't get basic medications without it.)
|
| In the realm of sexual health: While other countries have
| dispensing sexual health clinics with easy access to treatments
| and prophylactic medications, those afflicted in Germany and
| similar are often needlessly waiting, or worse simply spreading
| disease. With some medications and inoculations only available
| via a hospital appointment.
|
| Overall it breeds distrust in the medical system and promotes
| unhealthy, worthless, scammy "alternatives".
| munchler wrote:
| Homeopathy is total BS, but the placebo effect is real. Is there
| a way that medical science can allow people to benefit from the
| latter without rewarding quacks who push the former?
| exe34 wrote:
| prescribe distilled water.
| munchler wrote:
| Right, but how to do this while preserving the placebo
| effect? If the patient knows it's "just" water, the effect is
| lost. Some sort of deliberate deception seems to be
| necessary, which raises ethical problems.
| ravi_m wrote:
| Yeah, homeopathy works due to the placebo effect and further
| boosted by people that subscribe to the anti-allopathic or
| Western medicine religion. I think it should be studied similar
| to how people go to Godmen for healing and report success
| stories - placebo effect + religious faith / belief.
| skrebbel wrote:
| I've never understood why this isn't explored more.
|
| It's like, at some point we discovered the placebo effect,
| which has got to have been a pretty shocking result, right? I
| just can't fathom that the entire scientific community just
| went "ah, hm, right, placebo. I see. I guess we need to do our
| random-controlled-trials with a placebo control group now".
| Wait, _that's it?_ Nobody went "wtf woa we can cure a % of
| people with empty pills, how does that work and how can we up
| the %?"
|
| I just don't get it, it seems to me that the existence of the
| placebo effect is hard evidence that there's a mind-body
| connection and we can cure body stuff with mind stuff (and vice
| versa, probably), so why does nearly all of that remain firmly
| in alternative woo-woo land?
| vikramkr wrote:
| Because prescribing a placebo while saying it's a medicine
| involves lying to the patient, which is controversial when
| ethical standards usually involve informed consent and a
| belief in patient autonomy.
|
| > I just can't fathom that the entire scientific community
| just went "ah, hm, right, placebo. I see. I guess we need to
| do our random-controlled-trials with a placebo control group
| now". Wait, that's it?
|
| see that's because they didn't go like that - there's even an
| section on the ethics of using them in medical practice on
| the wikipedia article for placebo:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#In_medical_practice
|
| Plus it's a pretty important topic of discussion when it
| comes to pain management/opiod crisis. Unsurprisingly, a
| large group of professionals did not, in fact, randomly
| decide to ignore a very large and obvious question in the
| field
| atombender wrote:
| The placebo effect and the biological basis for it is
| absolutely being seriously studied.
|
| You might be interested in the work of Ted Kaptchuk and Kathryn
| Hall [1], for example. (Kaptchuk is a trained acupuncturist
| with a degree in Chinese medicine, but basically re-educated
| himself in western medicine, and is a highly regarded
| scientist.)
|
| One of their insights is that placebo effect comes from neural
| modulation of pain receptors, and that the placebo effect has
| specific limitations. For example, the placebo effect cannot
| cure cancer or make a cold go away, but it can lessen pain and
| reduce inflammation through hormone signaling.
|
| [1] https://www.harvardmagazine.com/node/39354
| AlexandrB wrote:
| What I don't get about homeopathy is that there's not even a
| plausible mechanism for it to work. So research into its
| effectiveness is like studying how well rocks repel tigers[1]. It
| seems necessary to show that a homeopathic "medicine" is
| substantially different than plain old water first.
|
| [1]
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4GzMizVAl-0&pp=ygUTc2ltcHNvbnM...
| thadt wrote:
| I dunno, I'd make the bold claim that most rocks will repel
| almost all tigers when deployed energetically enough.
| lamename wrote:
| Many people who are into homeopathy have no notion of
| "mechanism". They don't know to ask such questions, or perhaps
| they don't care to.
|
| In the worst case scenario, they accept lack of mechanism
| because "there are things science doesn't know", especially if
| their personal experience (random charlatan demonstration) is
| duped into belief.
| fabian2k wrote:
| This gets obfuscated by claiming that water has a memory and
| will "remember" those substances. Which is of course entirely
| implausible for anyone with sufficient physics or chemistry
| background.
|
| You're right that no further study is needed for homeopathy, it
| simply cannot work at these kinds of dilutions.
| financltravsty wrote:
| The plausible mechanism is placebo which is mediated by the
| autonomous nervous system. The same mechanism at play with back
| pain via either chiropractic (placebo) and the majority of
| spinal surgeries (placebo).
|
| Engineers and logical types take everything too much at face
| value (e.g. astrology and personality types, as well as health
| and fitness). The reality is usually that neither camp /really/
| knows what they're doing, but have plausible (to them)
| explanations. Though empiricism is much more mentally rigorous
| than woo-woo/sham.
|
| Generally, if the treatment achieves the patient's desired
| goals -- I don't think it matters (barring severe ethical
| concerns like body integrity dysphoria). People not generally
| educated in a Western background are more likely to be
| susceptible to placebo or "magic" (this includes the less
| educated in the anglosphere but also the majority in foreign
| countries).
|
| Barring life-saving procedures, most elective medicine is --
| imco -- on a similar, if not slightly higher standing compared
| to homeopathy et al.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| Like any cult pseudoscience it relies on the placebo and nocebo
| effects.
|
| It also does affect people for sure... For things like a very
| real ear infection... the a-holes will leave kids in agony for
| weeks before parents see a proper physician for antibiotics.
|
| Note Psychoneuroimmunology is also interesting, but a more
| legitimate area of scientific study. It takes a deep scientific
| look into induced immune system disorders, and unlike cult
| nonsense it has quantifiable scientific studies (usually done
| with rodents) that can be replicated in your own institutional
| labs.
|
| Cult Homeopathy is just expensive child neglect in my
| opinion... offering the worst outcomes for the naive and
| superstitious.
| secfirstmd wrote:
| Obligatory Mitchell and Webb: Homoeopathy Accident and Emergency
| Ward
|
| https://youtu.be/HMGIbOGu8q0
| gumby wrote:
| > 128th 'German Medical Assembly' recently declared that: "the
| use of homeopathy ... is not an option that is compatible with
| rational medicine, the requirement for the best possible
| treatment and an appropriate understanding of medical
| responsibility and medical ethics".
|
| I find this interesting because it was a German example a few
| years ago that demonstrated that homeopathy _could_ be ethical in
| a specific case.
|
| My mother in law (in Germany) had cancer, and eventually things
| reached the point where any further chemotherapy was pointless.
| So she went home. But they stocked her up with homeopathic
| "therapies" and she was quite diligent in taking them in the
| morning and thropugh the day. At first I was appalled, but then I
| realised that they gave her a sense of agency over her care. I
| think this had important psychological value over the beginning
| of the terminal phase of her life.
|
| Now I can't believe this works for everyone -- I can't imagine I
| would waste my remaining time on such nonsense. But I don't think
| she had a good grasp of science (she always wanted one of her
| kids, or me, to go with her to the doctor and to explain things
| to her) and she never had any access to the Internet to look
| things up, so she was probably the ideal candidate to benefit
| from this nonsense. Drinking water out of tiny bottles isn't any
| different from praying at that stage of your life and that's
| considered acceptable and even unremarkable in certain circles.
|
| PS: The Ukraine war made me think of her cancer -- it was a very
| unusual one and I have always believed it was due to some
| Chernobyl fallout.
| gumby wrote:
| If homeopathy "theory" says that the water retains an "imprint"
| of other chemicals it encountered, clearly the tap water coming
| into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone
| (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves.
|
| I briefly considered selling a device that would "reverse" those
| consequences so the water from your tap would be homeopathically
| neutralized. But it just seemed unethical to take advantage of
| the poorly educated. It's bad enough there are people selling
| crystals, bibles, and magic charms -- selling a scam-device like
| this is just as unethical.
| charles_f wrote:
| > clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly
| contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification
| treatment) and the pipes themselves.
|
| But then, the next concept is "like cures like". Why do you
| think people are so immune to fish piss?
| brendoelfrendo wrote:
| Boy, I bet all those people in Flint, Michigan are glad
| they're immune to lead now.
| charles_f wrote:
| If they get sick that's only because of the mercury in
| those vaccines.
| gumby wrote:
| Is it supposed to be my fault, or the governor's fault that
| they chose to live in Flint and not Palo Alto or the Upper
| East Side of Manhattan?
|
| If you make bad choices, take responsibility and bear the
| consequences. That's the American Way. It ain't my problem,
| Jack!
| gumby wrote:
| Well, we all know what _else_ fish do in the water and I don
| 't want my kids being born with gills.
| bryant wrote:
| You could probably still do it. It'd just have to be a
| distillation system that's not explicitly branded as a
| countertop water distiller but still describes its function and
| effects as such.
|
| You see plenty of examples of this on the market already as-is
| in different sectors. A part for a Ford GT could cost 500 bucks
| where the same part for a Ford Fiesta could cost 50.
| toss1 wrote:
| Good point but not such a great great exsmple of spurious
| cost differences. The Ford GT is a top race-spec car putting
| out 660 horsepower and capable of speeds around 220 mph,
| while the econocar Fiesta tops out at 112 HP and would be
| lucky to see 100mph with a tailwind.
|
| Unless the part is something like a window-opener switch, yoi
| _WANT_ that part to have all the extra engineering, higher
| spec materials, tighter-tolerance machining, and higher-level
| finishing that goes into making a high-performance machine
| actually perform at such high levels.
|
| Moreover, even if the parts weren't fundamentally different
| despite occupying similar roles in the car, the mere
| difference in volume of production will dictate a far higher
| cost for the "same" part in a car made only in quantities of
| only a few hundred per year vs thousands per month ...
| gumby wrote:
| Just relabel some cheap white-label distillation units by
| putting them in a pretty metal housing, with "100% natural
| rubber" hoses (sell a subscription to hose replacements too!)
| then mark up 600%.
|
| My problem is I am uncomfortable bilking the uneducated.
| There's enough of that going on already.
| bitwize wrote:
| "It's a miracle! Take physics and bin it! Water has _memory_ ,
| and whilst its _memory_ of a long lost drop of onion juice
| seems infinite, it somehow forgets all the poo it 's had in
| it." --Tim Minchin
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk
| rc_mob wrote:
| There are all sorts of homeopathy theories depending on who you
| talk to and what day of the week it is.
| Teever wrote:
| > But it just seemed unethical to take advantage of the poorly
| educated
|
| I thought about doing the same during COVID when people were
| believing ludicrous claims about nanobots in the vaccine.
|
| I was thinking that you could make a nice chunk of coin selling
| those old acam magnetic bracelets that 'deactivate the nanobots
| so that you can get the vaccine protection without the bots'
|
| That way people would be helped by your scam product. And
| another way to look at it is that these people are going to be
| scammed by someone, it might as well be you, some with morals
| and not someone who is going to use that scamoney to move onto
| a bigger and bigger scam until they scam their way into the
| office of president.
| samus wrote:
| Other scammers might be even less scrupulous and sell stuff
| which is actively harmful.
| gumby wrote:
| > And another way to look at it is that these people are
| going to be scammed by someone, it might as well be you, some
| with morals
|
| Hard to believe that anyone scamming others has acceptable
| moral scruples. Rather a case of "Yes, they killed a bunch of
| people but at least they were kind to their pets and kept to
| a strict vegetarian diet for moral reasons".
|
| But I have to admit I had some pleasurable _Schadenfreude_
| thinking of this idea.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| It likely wouldn't work. All these treatments are rooted in
| personality cults, social pressure, and anecdotes.
|
| Unless one of the big names in naturopathy gives your widget
| the thumbs up, the whackos won't buy it. In order to get them
| to give your widget the thumbs up, you'd have to give them a
| take.
|
| Once you get 1-2 big names on board - now all the others have
| to decide whether to go with the flow (while not getting paid),
| try to shake you down, or go against the big names.
|
| Reiki is a good example of this bullshit. You can get
| "certified" to a certain level, but the first question that
| people want to know is "who trained you", and they essentially
| follow a flowchart to see if your training came from the "good"
| reiki practitioners.
| samus wrote:
| Such devices are indeed already on the market. They are fancy
| water filters, nothing more, nothing less.
| gumby wrote:
| I should have guessed.
|
| Of course the water picks up the imprint of the filters. _My_
| device would use magnets! _Moving_ magnets so it doesn 't
| bias the water.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > It's bad enough there are people selling ... bibles
|
| I'd like to suggest that starting a thread based on
| "${specific_religion} is false" won't go well on HN.
|
| Or was your point more about the _selling_ of them? Sorry if I
| misunderstood.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| To the point of OP, this is the same kind of belief, just
| older.
|
| One believes in /something/ when there is no scientific
| evidence for it - against all odds.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I have dry eyes, and years ago my optometrist basically ordered
| me to buy a particular brand of homeopathic eye drops to use
| every day. All the drops have to do is wash off the surface of my
| eyes, and we don't want them to do anything but that. His point
| was that because they're homeopathic, they won't actually do
| anything, and because they're a _reputable_ homeopathic brand,
| you can be pretty sure they don 't contain anything that
| accidentally does something. Homeopathy as a way to ensure you're
| not getting medicine. Interesting way to look at it, I thought.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Two years after Oncology said they'd take the whole thing Very
| Seriously and Do A Thorough Investigation, Frass's article is
| still up on Oncology's website - not a single disclosure, notice,
| etc when it should have been retracted:
|
| https://theoncologist.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.10...
|
| He even got caught modifying the procedures of his study part-way
| through: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9470608/
|
| What infuriates me is that health insurers in my jurisdiction are
| _required_ to pay for "naturopathy." yet if I ask for the non-
| generic version of a medicine because the generics only have to
| deliver between 80% and 120% of what the non-generic does,
| different non-active ingredients, and different delivery / time
| release mechanisms...I get denied!
| popularrecluse wrote:
| Packaging on homeopathic products should have at least the same
| size warnings as tobacco products.
| borbtactics wrote:
| I still don't understand why these can be sold in American
| pharmacies.
| spenczar5 wrote:
| I for one am glad they they sell clean water in pharmacies, and
| support its continued sale!
| Tagbert wrote:
| Because they are not labeled as medical products. It is a
| loophole.
| underseacables wrote:
| It's considered a dietary supplement, which is governed by the
| dietary supplement health enforcement act, which in turn
| classifies dietary supplements as a food product.
| EForEndeavour wrote:
| Very much false.
|
| 1. Under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act,
| homeopathic products are _subject to the same requirements
| related to approval, adulteration and misbranding as other
| drug products._ https://www.fda.gov/drugs/information-drug-
| class/homeopathic...
|
| 2. Homeopathic products are "classified as either over-the-
| counter (OTC) or prescription medicines."
| https://www.chpa.org/about-consumer-healthcare/faqs/faqs-
| abo...
| vikramkr wrote:
| from that same link:
|
| > There are no FDA-approved products labeled as
| homeopathic; this means that any product labeled as
| homeopathic is being marketed in the U.S. without FDA
| evaluation for safety or effectiveness.
| EForEndeavour wrote:
| That's beside the point of the comment I replied to,
| which falsely said homeopathic products were classified
| as dietary supplements.
| pizza234 wrote:
| They're even covered by some insurance plans.
|
| A friend of mine is an orthopedic surgeon, and they explained
| to me that for mild problems, which would normally heal on
| their own, it's cheaper to cover a placebo rather than real
| medication.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| It's even cheaper to offer nothing. Some humans are just
| quite something.
| vog wrote:
| While I hear this argumentation a lot, I still struggle with
| this:
|
| If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on
| their own", buying no medication at all would be even
| cheaper.
|
| And from an ethical point of view, the idea of financing a
| whole (homeopathic) industry that uses your money to produce
| fake science, even with a single cent, should make one
| shudder, shouldn't it?
| vog wrote:
| To those who downvoted: Would you dare to explain your
| disagreement?
| rafaelmn wrote:
| > If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on
| their own", buying no medication at all would be even
| cheaper.
|
| But placebos actually outperform no intervention.
| vog wrote:
| Okay, fair point.
|
| But then, why prescribe the most expensive placebos where
| you co-finance societal harmful behavior, rather than
| just prescribing the "harmless" placebos that are not
| homeopathy, which are usually even cheaper and don't have
| any ideological overhead?
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I'm not aware of any research along these lines, but I
| suspect that all placebos are not equally effective.
|
| It's a psychological effect, so things like price or
| flavor or packaging likely affect its strength.
| dmoy wrote:
| Yea there is research into it, and you're correct
|
| Color matters: placebo colored pills work better than
| white pills.
|
| Delivery mechanism matters: placebo injections work
| better than pills.
|
| Idk about price, packaging, or flavor specifically. But
| delivery mechanism, color, number of pills, etc I
| remember from a study.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| There is a lot of over-the-counter and even some
| prescription medicine that don't do much at all for what
| people take them for, and homeopathy is cheaper and less
| harmful for the same placebo effect. Cold medicine in
| particular is known for its dubious efficiency.
|
| No medication is even cheaper, but the placebo effect
| works, so if people were to take something, might as well
| have them take something cheap and harmless. In my opinion,
| it doesn't justify supporting homeopathy, but health
| insurances may see it differently.
|
| Placebos are an interesting ethical issue. Doctors are not
| supposed to deceive you, they are people you trust with
| your life and very personal issues and they are therefore
| held to very high standards. But even if it is for your own
| good, the placebo effect is based on deception, so is it
| ethical for a doctor to give you a placebo? And is fake
| science that still help people ethical? The consensus seems
| to be "no" for both and I tend to agree, but I still think
| it is worth debating.
| Dwedit wrote:
| Here we have an article that claims that even when people
| are told they are getting a placebo, they still felt
| better after taking it.
|
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-
| even-kn...
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| This is basically how TCM came to be!
|
| The Chinese Communist Party had billions being raised out of
| incredible poverty and that populace started demanding
| medical care. There was no possible way to supply enough
| clinics, doctors, nurses, etc - and not just because Mao
| whipped the Red Guard into an anti-intellectual froth than
| then slaughtered much of China's academic/scientific
| community.
|
| So Mao waved his hands and invented TCM, which basically said
| "oh yeah, most of these traditional Chinese medicines work.
| We did some research and figured out which ones and how to
| apply them!"
|
| Hilariously people argue TCM doesn't work not because it's
| complete bullshit, but because it's a _modified, corrupted_
| version of actual Chinese medicine...
| everybodyknows wrote:
| Indulging without argument a patient's harmless fantasies
| economizes on physician time, and that is surely the most
| precious resource.
| explaininjs wrote:
| Because every bottle is clearly labeled "The FDA has not
| evaluated this for treating any condition". There are a great
| many products that the FDA hasn't evaluated that are still
| sold, why should these be any different?
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| But why are businesses like CVS hawking snake oil while also
| having trained pharmacists on staff.
| Angostura wrote:
| It makes money
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Most pharmacies used to sell tobacco products (they only
| started to do so after a couple of states started banning
| the practice.) Walgreens still does (in states where it
| isn't banned from doing so).
|
| https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/pharmacy/walgreens-
| tes...
|
| > "The safety of our patients is very important, but we
| also have to do what our customers are requiring us to do,"
| Walgreens CEO Stefano Pessina told the WSJ. "We see that
| when we don't sell tobacco, we have a lot of [negative]
| reactions."
| jfengel wrote:
| Because a lot of those bottles also make claims that are in
| violation of the FDA rules. The label is not sufficient.
|
| They need to avoid making claims that they can treat or
| diagnose some condition. They do their best to hint at it
| without crossing the line, and frequently blatantly do cross
| it. The FDA does not have anywhere near the manpower to
| enforce it. And when they do finally get around to it, the
| brand vanishes, and a new one appears with exactly the same
| product lineup.
|
| The sector has long lost any entitlement to benefit of the
| doubt. They are knowingly making illegal claims and using a
| disclaimer as a fig leaf even though everything else on the
| package contradicts it.
| vikramkr wrote:
| It's not illegal and its not in violation of FDA rules.
| That disclaimer text is from a specific law that gives them
| exemption from those rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D
| ietary_Supplement_Health_and_...
|
| It's not a manpower issue, it's not a legal issue. It's not
| against the law because they wrote the law. There is no
| line they try to avoid crossing because that line was
| erased by lobbyists in 1994.
| jfengel wrote:
| As I said, it's not the disclaimer. It's all of the other
| text that contradicts it.
| vikramkr wrote:
| It's the other way around, the 'FDA has not evaluated' text
| is indicating that these products are different and part of a
| special loophole created just for them: https://en.wikipedia.
| org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_...
|
| The reason that these get to make health claims and stuff
| without regulation, and get special treatment, is lobbying
| resulting in that act. Otherwise they would have been
| regulated.
| Angostura wrote:
| Aren't they normally sold as supplements' not medicines, to
| circumvent regulations?
| jxy wrote:
| THE PLACEBO EFFECT:
|
| It works even when you know it's a placebo.
| vog wrote:
| This is an incorrect summary of the placebo effect. The
| placebo effect _does_ require the patient to either believe
| it is effective, or at least not knowing clearly it is
| ineffective.
|
| This is why clinical studies don't tell neither group
| (neither the treated group nor the control group) who is in
| which group, to not spoil the results.
|
| And also, this is why homeopathy puts so much effort into
| spreading the belief they are effective despite all odds, up
| to the point of trying to convince people to abandon basic
| scientific principles.
| vog wrote:
| Contrast this with advertisement, which actually _does_
| work even when people know that it is ads, and which still
| _does_ work on people how know how ads work.
|
| Also, contrast this with psychotherapy, which usually does
| work even better if the patient understands how it works,
| because it enables them to become an active and more
| effective part of the therapy.
| tpoacher wrote:
| studies don't tell you about being on a placebo because of
| blinding, not because it would stop the placebo from
| working.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Well, the placebo effect is real so the products do actually
| work. Weird line, sure, but still.
| pfdietz wrote:
| They are powerful placebos, so the believers have become
| permanently duped.
| golergka wrote:
| Placebos work even if users know it's a placebo. I don't for
| a second believe in any of homeopathy claims, but I still buy
| and use it, because placebo works. Especially so when price
| and all other medicine-looking rituals around it are
| maintained.
| slibhb wrote:
| People want to buy them and we live in a free country.
| whamlastxmas wrote:
| Unless we want to make people accountable for running their
| own sophisticated clinical studies for every single product
| we buy, we should probably have some rules in place around
| false claims and false advertising.
| TheRoque wrote:
| In France they were funded by the social security up to 15%,
| but luckily this stopped in 2021. I had some as a kid and my
| mom is still a strong "believer" in them. I don't see any harm
| in selling them IF and only if they don't prevent people from
| taking other "real" treatments. But other than this it's just
| placebo.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| > and only if they don't prevent people from taking other
| "real" treatments
|
| This is the dominant harm, yeah. As we know from infosec, few
| things are more dangerous than a false sense of security, and
| that's exactly what ineffective drugs provide.
| NewEntryHN wrote:
| Most of homeopathy usages target little aches and whatnots
| that require no treatment (beyond patience), so I guess it
| could also act as a buffer against overmedication.
| vikramkr wrote:
| lobbying:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_...
| blendergeek wrote:
| If the homeopathic remedies don't harm anyone (I know that some
| have, this comment only references the remedies that don't),
| what is the problem with them being sold and used?
|
| Many cold medicines have side effects, some are even abused
| recreationaly. Given that human bodies tend to recover with or
| without cold medicine (and given the shaky legs that
| Phenylephrine stands on), what is the issue with people using
| "fake medicine"?
|
| Homeopathic remedies cannot be abused recreationaly. They
| aren't precursors to meth. They are better in every way (except
| the don't work better than a placebo). But, if all a patient
| needs is a placebo (people recover from the common cold just
| fine without medicine), homeopathic remedies are perfect.
|
| Remember the hippocrattic oath: First of all, do no harm. Safe,
| well prepared homeopathic remedies shouldn't do harm. Many cold
| medicines do.
| dymk wrote:
| > what is the issue with people using "fake medicine"?
|
| Because people are being tricked into thinking they're taking
| medicine, preventing them from seeking out medical care.
| blendergeek wrote:
| The choice is
|
| over the counter cold medicine
|
| vs
|
| homeopathic "remedies".
|
| Neither of these cure diseases. Neither of these prevent
| the seeking of medical care. Both of them may make people
| feel better (the placebo effect can be powerful). Only one
| of these is frequently abused by teenagers as a
| recreational drug.
| blincoln wrote:
| There are plenty of people who take homeopathic and other
| alternative products instead of prescription products
| because they can't afford the prescription products, and
| fraudulent advertising makes them think the alternative
| is more or less equivalent.
|
| I actually had someone at a pet store try to sell me
| homeopathic medication instead of dewormer because they
| were out of actual dewormer. Do you think that's harmless
| to someone who doesn't know the difference between giving
| their pet real medication vs. magic woo water?
| whamlastxmas wrote:
| Your appendix is about to burst, the surgeon is busy, but
| do some yoga near this crystal and it'll clear right up
| evilduck wrote:
| Why not just prescribe a crystal and some essential oils
| instead? Maybe have them sacrifice a chicken tomorrow evening
| at dusk? Actually, if they send me $400 in Bitcoin I will
| simply cure them with the power of prayer. Nobody is making
| meth off of my well wishes either.
| derbOac wrote:
| I might be downvoted for this, but I tend to have a kind of
| libertarian take on this. I absolutely do not believe in
| homeopathy beyond placebo effects, and I understand the harm
| they do by opportunity costs in pursuing other treatments.
|
| But at the end of the day I feel like all medications should
| basically be handled like homeopathy products. They should be
| available to anyone, barring some kind of competency ruling or
| disagreement by the pharmacy over what they want to sell to
| whom, and the FDA should basically ensure that they are what
| they say they are on the label.
|
| I'm glad there's skeptics out there calling BS on homeopathy
| but where I diverge from them is in somehow preventing it from
| being available. It's water, it's labeled accurately, so let
| people do what they're going to do. If they weren't doing this
| I doubt they'd be doing something more "mainstream" anyway, or
| complying with it. They might even be doing something even
| _more_ actively harmful.
|
| I guess I see it as a slippery slope from banning homeopathy to
| something much murkier where reasonable experts disagree. Real
| medical science can get very grey really fast and I'm not sure
| I trust regulatory authority figures to always make the best
| decisions about what to do. Better to leave it to the consumer
| and whichever provider they trust most.
|
| Demand product purity, prevent health claims on the label,
| whatever, but I think my question is "why aren't more
| medications sold in American pharmacies?"
| vikramkr wrote:
| its not about banning availability, its about making them
| required to prove the health claims theyre making. If you
| didn't have any requirements to prove your drug worked before
| selling it, youd take away a pretty huge market incentive to
| make drugs that work (health is about as far from a perfect
| full information free market as you can get -- homeopathy
| doesn't work at all and those companies are making plenty of
| money). These regulations also force research into and
| labeling of side effects, and skimping on that led to an
| opiod crisis.
|
| Honestly don't really see the economic or societal argument
| for deregulating medicine. If you want a system where to get
| an fda stamp you have to prove it works but can sell whatever
| otherwise with no consequences until you kill someone or
| destroy their gallbladders
| (https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2024/05/fda-determines-
| that-t...) - well that's what we already have now so given it
| hasn't changed in decades, even with recent attempts to do so
| after all the strip mall stem cell clinics and GRAS issues
| and all, I don't think your opinion is that out of the
| mainstream.
|
| And in terms of why aren't more sold in pharmacies - no clue
| what you're talking about there lol. Have you not seen the
| A-Z supplement whatever aisles full of all this unregulated
| crap? You can buy whatever you want unless the DEA has an
| issue with it.
| Apreche wrote:
| They couldn't. But then a law called the DSHEA was passed that
| changed all the rules.
| austin-cheney wrote:
| Homeopathy is BS, but understanding of edible foraging and plant
| chemistry is surprisingly helpful for better health and diet.
|
| As an example onions and garlic do nothing to cure or address
| asthma. They do contain an active chemical that vaporized when
| they are cut which causes uncontrolled tear production. That same
| chemical agitates the throat in a way that arrests some amount of
| night coughing induced by asthma.
|
| Another example is that wild lettuce is a drug like opium. Opium
| is a thistle, as are artichokes, and thistles are closely related
| to the lactuca genus that comprises lettuce. The drugs in both
| opium and lettuce are found in the plant latex containing two
| analgesics and a depressant. Lettuce drug, lactucarium, is not
| known to be habit forming and is minor though. It is just
| recommended as a topical treatment for minor skin injuries.
|
| Another is that common fruits like pears, apples, and citrus
| contain drug like chemicals that alter the metabolism. This is
| super potent in grapefruit and has been known to cause fatal drug
| interactions in people on prescribed medicine. These chemicals
| are again magnified in commercial fruit juice since commercial
| fruit juice represents a high concentration of juice than found
| in actual fruit and without any fiber to slow digestion. If you
| find yourself mixing gold flakes with liquor and orange juice you
| might be inducing long term metal toxicity to your body even
| though gold is inert under normal dietary conditions.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > Another is that common fruits like pears, apples, and citrus
| contain drug like chemicals that alter the metabolism. This is
| super potent in grapefruit and has been known to cause fatal
| drug interactions in people on prescribed medicine.
|
| Grapefruit does not "alter the metabolism." Furanocoumarin
| binds to a receptor in the gut which causes some medications to
| pass through the gut much faster than normal which affects the
| level of the medicine in the blood.
|
| That has nothing to do with "metabolism."
|
| It also only affects _some_ medications.
|
| You might want to refrain from commenting on medicine until you
| have an actual science-based education in it.
| fabian2k wrote:
| Grapefruit contains compounds that inhibit Cytochrome P450
| and this will affect how various drugs will be metabolized.
| That is a very direct effect on metabolism and will affect a
| variety of drugs, but certainly not all of them.
| pfdietz wrote:
| That's not the only mechanism (see other response also).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit%E2%80%93drug_intera.
| ..
| guerrilla wrote:
| > Grapefruit does not "alter the metabolism."
|
| Wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochrome_P450
| bratwurst3000 wrote:
| The joke about homeopathy is that the guy that invented it knew
| that it didn't work. He invented an heal plan that included fresh
| air and forrest walks and good food and exercise... the obvious
| today. But his patients wanted also medicine too ... because you
| know that's how people are apparently... so he invented
| homeopathy and the nice story to it. But people should primary do
| the other things. It's funny that only his fake medicine is so
| successful today.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| I had horrible pollen allergies. My mother took me to a homeopath
| (in addition to regular doctors) She prescribed some tablets /
| pills to dissolve under the tunge, that had some pollen in them.
|
| It worked pretty well for allergies but not the best for teeth.
| Just building up resistance I would think.
|
| I know you can get similar treatment now from regular doctors.
|
| So my one and only interaction was fairly successful.
|
| I have never sought one out for anything else.
| pizza234 wrote:
| Well, it's interesting - based on your description, the
| medication you took is not homeopathic:
|
| > Homeopathic preparations are termed remedies and are made
| using homeopathic dilution. In this process, the selected
| substance is repeatedly diluted until the final product is
| chemically indistinguishable from the diluent.
|
| If in a preparation there is a measurable quantity of the
| active ingredient, then it's not an homeopathic preparation.
| munchler wrote:
| One of the problems with homeopathy is that many
| practitioners don't understand what homeopathy actually
| means. It's essentially synonymous with "naturopathy" for
| them.
| didgeoridoo wrote:
| Indeed, that sounds more like a "naturopath" which can be
| both more effective and more dangerous than homeopathy
| because their remedies actually contain active ingredients
| (although in somewhat random and nonstandardized quantities).
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| That's not the entirety of homeopathy, just the most commonly
| shat on ridiculous homeopathic practice
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > That's not the entirety of homeopathy, just the most
| commonly shat on ridiculous homeopathic practice
|
| Uugh. It's really hard to productively discuss a topic when
| people have different definitions for the terms being used.
| nick__m wrote:
| Are you sure it was not a naturopath? Because the fundamental
| "principle" behind homeopathy is exponential dilution.
|
| An homeopathic pollen formulation would start with 1 mg of
| pollen in a litter of water, a milliliter of that solution
| would be diluted in a liter of water and this process would be
| repeated a few time. In the final solution, it would be
| impossible to detect even a trace of the original pollen.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I know a few people that think the term "homeopath" includes
| what we're calling "naturopath".
|
| I'm not really sure how this confusion arose, but I don't
| like it. It muddies the waters (heh) in a few ways.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > I had horrible pollen allergies. My mother took me to a
| homeopath (in addition to regular doctors) She prescribed some
| tablets / pills to dissolve under the tunge, that had some
| pollen in them.
|
| You don't know that it worked. This is an example of the
| regression fallacy.[1] This is why we have controlled trials.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_fallacy
| charles_f wrote:
| I regularly had arguments on homeopathy with some close family
| members. I stopped, because belief in homeopathy is the same kind
| of belief as belief in flat-earth, and you can't be cured off it.
|
| People get seduced by a somewhat internal logic. They get a fuzzy
| feeling of superiority in their discovery that the mainstream
| ignores. If you point out the absolute lack of evidence of any of
| what they believe in, it's because pharma is silencing them. They
| are excited to be enlightened, because only they can see how
| crooked big pharma is: they need you to be sick so you can buy
| their "allopathic medicine" (derogatory calling of drugs that
| actually work), so they're trying to kill homeopathy who would
| really save you ; which to be fair is not helped by the fact that
| _pharmaceutical companies are indeed crooked and want you to be
| sick_.
|
| I don't think there's any volume that can be said on homeopathy
| that will convince anyone who already _believes_ in it that it 's
| all a scam.
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| There's more to it. I am someone who has had medical problems
| that took years to diagnose. I had doctors who were terrific
| and I had doctors be almost accusatory when the tests they ran
| came back negative. When the medical establishment fails you
| it's tough, and there plenty of snake oil salesmen who are
| happy to sell you a cure THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT DOESN'T WANT
| YOU TO KNOW ABOUT!!! I can see the allure when there's
| literally no one else to turn to.
| strongpigeon wrote:
| I've heard of a strategy that can help some people challenge
| their belief for issues like homeopathy or flat earth. The idea
| is to ask them to rate on a scale of 1-10 the strength of their
| belief. As in, "how convinced are you on a scale of 1-10 that
| the earth is flat?". If they give anything less than 10, you
| then follow up by asking them why that score and why not a
| higher or lower score as in (if they said e.g., 8/10): "What
| would make it a 9/10 or a 10/10?".
|
| Basically having them "ironman" the opposite side of the
| argument can cause people to start to think more objectively
| about the issue. However, if the person says 10/10 there
| apparently isn't much that can be done.
|
| I've never tried this myself as I don't have any flat earther
| or homeopathy believers in my entourage, but it does seem to
| make sense and I've used this to question some of my beliefs
| myself. Not saying it would work with your family members
| either though.
| pizza234 wrote:
| I'm a staunch supporter of homeopathic remedies. I drink more
| than 2 liters of homeopathic solution per day. /s
| nw05678 wrote:
| If it worked and had the scientific evidence behind it then would
| be called medicine.
| golergka wrote:
| How much of other modern research has the same amount of issues,
| but doesn't have any motivated critics to uncover it?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I've now known two people quite well, who either had cancer or
| their spouses did. Both of them went all-in for the woo-woo. One
| went to Mexico for it. Both are dead now.
|
| If you make it illegal in the US, they'll just get it from
| another country. Because some people are just susceptible to this
| stuff.
| jhawleypeters wrote:
| It's comforting to think of medical professionals as competent
| and trustworthy, but it's simply not universally true. Medical
| mistakes are the third leading cause of death in the U.S.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499956/
|
| Homeopathy is basically mistake proof compared to real medicine,
| including a doctor visit. For a sufficiently minor ailment,
| avoiding risk of a potentially lethal mistake is just safer.
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