[HN Gopher] Mimicking the cells that carry hemoglobin as a blood...
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Mimicking the cells that carry hemoglobin as a blood substitute
Author : rbanffy
Score : 84 points
Date : 2024-07-05 14:10 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.science.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org)
| ompogUe wrote:
| Reminds me of something I read in one of the Kurzweil books years
| ago: having nano-blood delivering enough oxygen to stay
| underwater for 8 hours. Things like that.
|
| The (funny to me) idea that also came from that was that we can
| remove our digestive systems, because "eating mainly for
| nutrients" turns into "eating just for enjoyment", and we have a
| tray in our stomachs that we tap out to empty the chewed food.
| sottol wrote:
| At that point, why not just let Neuralink tickle the right
| brain regions - seems more sensible than literally stuffing
| food into your mouth. Also seems closer to being achievable
| than nano blood.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Heroin just doesn't have the same experience as a meal.
| ertgbnm wrote:
| Same reason we might choose to have sex instead of
| masturbate. Masturbating may be faster and easier. But sex is
| fun and you can do it with friends.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Nano specifics aside, we can already feed people
| intravenously. We do not yet know how to electrically trick
| the brain in any meaningful and safe way.
|
| I might also be crossing the streams on partially remembered
| text, but I believe the nano component of the blood was about
| engineered hemoglobin that was a more effective oxygen
| carrier, not glucose.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| There was a story here a few months ago from a guy who has
| severe Crohn's disease, with his gut fused to some other organ
| I can't recall in a way that prevented eating at all. He was
| able to survive via a direct infusion of nutrients into his
| blood, but the viscosity of the subtance would make it far too
| painful to inject by any normal IV route, so he needed a
| catheter inserted straight into his vena cava. And though this
| provided all the sustenance his body required for energy,
| because hunger hormones are produced in the gut, not eating
| will leave you perpetually hungry even if you actually have all
| the energy you need. The very existence of obesity should
| probably make it obvious this is possible, but removing our
| digestive systems may have unintended consequences. The way
| this guy described his experiences sounded like a pretty
| miserable existence.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I knew it had to into a major vein, but I didn't know about
| the hunger issue with TPN.
| krisoft wrote:
| Yeah i mean realistically just the port to "a tray in our
| stomachs" sounds like a nightmare. How do you make a port big
| enough to take the tray out? How do you prevent it from
| always getting infected? What do you do with the core muscles
| where the tray port goes? How do you clean the pouch where
| the tray resides? How will you make the tray-escophagus
| interface leak proof? What if someone with the tray in their
| stomach wants to do sports, or is in an accident? When they
| are shocked around will the tray mechanism tear their flesh
| and organs? Will the tray accomodate body shape changes
| during a pregnancy? Or changes due to old age? How will
| people know that their tray is full? Will they just start
| choking? How big the tray has to be to accomodate a family
| meal, but also be small enough to not feel as a burden during
| everyday activities?
|
| The truth is that our body is marvelously complex, and
| dynamically adjusts to many challenges. It does this so
| seamlesly that we don't even notice. That is why people come
| up with ridiculous ideas like this because they are not
| consciously aware of how amazing their body is at taking care
| of the job of keeping them alive.
|
| The closest to this tray idea in reality is an ileostomy. And
| while it is better than dying, it has many risks and negative
| consequences. The idea that otherwise healthy individuals
| would willingly under go such a modification to their bodies
| is ludicrous.
| Rumudiez wrote:
| Look up colostomy bags. It's not a lifestyle I think many
| people would choose on a whim
| epcoa wrote:
| Not sure why you think someone mentioning an ileostomy
| would be unfamiliar with colostomy bags.
| tonetegeatinst wrote:
| Iirc serotonin is also found in the gut.
| Aurornis wrote:
| Serotonin is found all over the body: Blood, digestive
| system, skin, bones, lungs.
|
| It doesn't migrate all over, though. Serotonin in the gut
| doesn't go into your brain like many people assume.
| jfengel wrote:
| There has been research suggesting that the vagus nerve
| might carry serotonin from the gut to the brain:
|
| https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-
| way/201...
|
| I'd note that this is a five year old article and I
| haven't heard of any followups. And the article itself
| may be misinterpreting the underlying actual research,
| which suggests that it's more about SSRIs:
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-50807-8
|
| Still, I thought it was worth mentioning.
| somenameforme wrote:
| In recent years the gut-brain axis [1] has been solidified as
| both real, causal, and critical. So just removing your gut
| would probably have severe consequences beyond just the more
| straight forward ones.
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut%E2%80%93brain_axis
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| The whole concept sounds a bit wooish, and the Wiki article
| doesn't read like you'd expect it from a description of
| "real, casual, and critical" concept in medicine. Is there
| any other real set of factors that would make this
| particular "axis" special, vs. a pair or triple of any
| other organs that happen to be spaced far apart in the
| body?
| waltbosz wrote:
| Just this morning I was wondering if one could cure their
| hypertension by getting an artificial heart to circulate their
| blood more efficiently.
|
| I mean sure you could also treat with weight loss and regular
| exercise, but it's a fun thought experiment.
| carbocation wrote:
| Hypertension is not caused by the heart pumping too well, so
| this would not work for the purpose of curing hypertension.
| But if you could invent a durable heart replacement therapy,
| you'd save a lot of lives.
| teaker wrote:
| See, ECMO. Although it can save one's life where perfusion is
| otherwise inadequate, it is extremely difficult to initiate
| and maintain.
| epcoa wrote:
| If the pressures in a system are too high (mechanical or
| biological) the pump is usually not the culprit.
| nullorempty wrote:
| It's not just the food it's flushing out.
| jschveibinz wrote:
| I am very familiar with the company KaloCyte that developed
| Erythromer. Great technology, great people, good non-dilutive
| funding, and they are pursuing a Series A.
| abeppu wrote:
| > Allan Doctor, a bespectacled 61-year-old physician-researcher
| at the University of Maryland (UMD) School of Medicine
|
| Not at all the point, but I get way too much enjoyment out of the
| fact that this person is Dr. Doctor. I hope he occasionally
| insists that people call him that and then quietly hums the song
| by the Thompson Twins.
| carbocation wrote:
| Nominative determinism strikes again.
| zimbu668 wrote:
| In college the course on Maxwell's equations was taught by Dr.
| Lord. Every time I walked in to class I thought "Let there be
| light"
| jorvi wrote:
| Reminiscent of a Doctor Strange scene:
|
| https://youtu.be/ewFg5wUvkGI?si=bxKgLot0iqwYpLx3
| chriscjcj wrote:
| When I was a little boy, the librarian at our small local
| branch was named Virginia Read.
|
| In the late 70's and early 80's, there were two doctors who
| shared an office in San Luis Obispo, CA. Their names were Dr.
| Herten and Dr. Payne.
| ompogUe wrote:
| Was reading yesterday about pioneering female ad-exec Mary
| Wells Lawrence.
|
| When she was passed up for a promotion, she started her own
| agency, whose treasurer was "Richard Rich".
| utensil4778 wrote:
| I still can't get my head around the fact that one can earn a
| doctorate in nursing.
|
| Therefore: Dr. Nurse Doctor
| brightball wrote:
| Is that related to what that Humacyte company was doing? I
| remember seeing it show up in the various politician stock trade
| trackers that follow Pelosi, Tuberville, etc.
| deegles wrote:
| This is another company making the same product, they call it
| OxyBridge https://virtechbio.com/
| tonetegeatinst wrote:
| I have a very very limited understanding of biology because I
| never took anything other than a highschool class.
|
| Is hemoglobin critical just because of its ability to deliver
| oxygen to cells? If so could a synthetic replacement for
| hemoglobin be developed that could replace to function of
| hemoglobin in the human body? Or is this a issue of chemical
| structure where our body would reject non hemoglobin molecular
| structures attempting to deliver oxygen?
| georgyo wrote:
| Also not a biologist, but the the body actively rejects all
| things it considers foreign.
|
| Consider that we have A, B, O, and AB with both positive and
| negative variants as the most common blood types.
|
| Unless you're O+, you will reject the blood causing a massive
| immune response.
|
| Having the something that works like blood, the body won't
| reject, and has a shelf life longer than actual blood is hard.
| Kubuxu wrote:
| AB+ is the universal recipient of red blood cells, O- is the
| universal donor. It is reverse for plasma.
|
| The blood rejection is reaction between blood plasma (with
| cells produced by your immune system) and red blood cells.
| utensil4778 wrote:
| Mechanically, all hemoglobin does is take up an oxygen molecule
| when in an oxygen rich environment, and releases it in a CO2
| rich environment. CO2 just dissolves into the bulk fluid of the
| blood and diffuses out in the lungs, it is not carried by
| hemoglobin. However, hemoglobin _can_ bind to CO carbon
| monoxide, and it can 't let go of it. The hemoglobin molecule
| is effectively dead and useless.
|
| If you had a molecule which functions in a similar way, it'd
| probably work in blood. The real trick is getting it to release
| the oxygen in the presence of CO2.
|
| Immune response is a different matter that I don't know enough
| about to weigh in on. I'd assume there's ways around it.
| Possibly immunosuppressor drugs for the (hopefully) short time
| you're on the synthetic blood.
| dexwiz wrote:
| It needs to collect and release CO2 and O2 at the correct times
| and pressures. It needs to not be poisonous or toxic. It needs
| to not be quickly processed by the liver or kidneys, but
| processed enough that it doesn't build up and become toxic. It
| needs to be evenly distributable via blood. It needs to not get
| into places where it shouldn't be. It needs to not stick to
| things like artery walls. It needs to not cause an immune or
| inflammatory response. It needs to not cause you to clot or
| bleed out. And it needs to do all this and more in disparate
| parts of the body in varying chemical environments.
|
| The list of requirements is very long. Out body evolved
| alongside hemoglobin and finding a replacement that fits the
| bill perfectly is very difficult.
|
| Also hemoglobin appears in other places. Free oxygen is
| actually toxic in large amounts and will oxidize random things.
| Hemoglobin is used as an antioxidant to collect excess oxygen.
| amelius wrote:
| We will need this to rinse all the PFAS out of our blood
| circulations.
| westurner wrote:
| Another solution; from "Scientists Find a Surprising Way to
| Transform A and B Blood Types Into Universal Blood" (2024)
| https://singularityhub.com/2024/04/29/scientists-find-a-surp... :
|
| > Let's Talk ABO+: _When tested in clinical trials, converted
| blood has raised safety concerns. Even when removing A or B
| antigens completely from donated blood, small hints from earlier
| studies found an immune mismatch between the transformed donor
| blood and the recipient. In other words, the engineered O blood
| sometimes still triggered an immune response._
| isk517 wrote:
| I did the math and unless I made a mistake, this $46M is a
| smaller 'bet' by percentage of income than my yearly $6 bet on
| the lottery.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| A friend of mine did work in this space back in 90s and early
| 2000s ("Synthetic Blood International", later renamed to "Oxygen
| Biotherapeutics", now "Tenax Therapeutics") based on work done by
| Dr. Leland Clark[0]. It sounded like really interesting stuff--
| very sci-fi. They were using a fluorocarbon[1]. It made me think
| of The Abyss.
|
| They had a ton of interest from the Department of Defense.
|
| Edit:
|
| Oh, holy crap. I didn't realize Dr. Clark actually did the "rat
| breathing liquid"[2] thing for real! (It sounds cruel, to be
| sure...)
|
| (Also, Dr. Clark had some serious Isaac Asimov sideburns going
| on...)
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Clark
|
| [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US4289499A/en
|
| [2] https://cen.acs.org/articles/83/i13/LELAND-CLARK.html
| yalogin wrote:
| This is exactly the kind of bets the government should make.
| However I was expecting it to be a research project not a
| startup. If they already have a product what do they need the
| funding for? I mean, they already know if it works or not.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Running clinical trials is expensive, I imagine.
|
| The article says they've only done testing in animals so far.
| david-gpu wrote:
| There is a huge cost associated with moving from a proof of
| concept to a commercially viable product. People often severely
| underestimate the effort involved in this.
| sharpshadow wrote:
| I'm very confident that if you could sell your blood on the free
| market and avoid donation scamming centers, which literally are
| taking your blood for free (time compensation) and sell it,
| partly to the Pharma industry for profit, the problem of not
| enough blood would be solved quickly.
|
| But blood counts as organs and organ trade is prohibited.
| spuz wrote:
| Actually, selling blood is legal in the US under the same law
| that legalises selling plasma. But hospitals won't use sold
| blood to inject into patients because even if it goes through
| testing for diseases, they consider it too high a risk.
|
| https://www.statnews.com/2016/01/22/paid-plasma-not-blood/
| sharpshadow wrote:
| Ohh that's good to know thanks. Here in Germany and probably
| Europe it's not allowed not even the plasma part.
| sharpshadow wrote:
| "An earlier class of candidate blood substitutes tried to replace
| hemoglobin with oxygen-bearing chemicals called
| perfluorocarbons..."
|
| Great idea back then in the 80s the forever blood.
| gglon wrote:
| How does it compare with xenotransfusion from genetically
| modified pigs?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenotransfusion#Ethical_argume...
|
| I guess the extended shelf life and more compatibility might be
| some of the pros of synthetic blood.
| odyssey7 wrote:
| In terms of logistics, you wouldn't need to raise genetically
| modified pigs. You could potentially scale production on demand
| and it doesn't require the environmental footprint of
| livestock.
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