[HN Gopher] Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)
        
       Author : davedx
       Score  : 146 points
       Date   : 2024-07-03 09:26 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (groups.csail.mit.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (groups.csail.mit.edu)
        
       | hmarkgen wrote:
       | What is striking about written documents from that era is the
       | lucid and yet far more sophisticated writing style compared to
       | contemporary publications.
       | 
       | Would Licklider be happy with the AI slop that we see today?
       | Would he be able to use LLMs in a productive manner?
       | 
       | People in that era could be optimistic because they did not
       | suffer from information overload. The best symbiotic relationship
       | is still man-book or man-pencil-and-paper.
        
         | davedx wrote:
         | I suspect he would think ChatGPT voice is pretty close to what
         | he envisioned for man-machine symbiosis
        
         | pyrale wrote:
         | They could be optimistic because they didn't get suckered by
         | what tech has become. It is the same kind of optimism that can
         | be found in Engelbart's preamble to the mother of all demos.
         | 
         | The idea that one could treat a program delivered by google,
         | facebook or amazon as something to cooperate with rather than
         | use warily is much harder now than it was then.
        
         | photochemsyn wrote:
         | Major fields of study like chaos (sensitive dependence on
         | initial conditions within an apparently deterministic system),
         | protein structure solving from X-ray diffraction patterns and
         | many others would be impossible without computational
         | assistance from machines.
         | 
         | As far as style and tone, you can certainly get LLMs to mimic
         | Licklider's style with suitable prompting, e.g.
         | 
         | > "In replicating the reflective and anticipatory tone of the
         | original text, it becomes evident that the concept of man-
         | computer symbiosis was not merely speculative but a forecast
         | grounded in the trajectory of technological and computational
         | advancements. This partnership, as envisioned, holds the
         | promise of amplifying human potential through the strategic
         | leverage of computational power, thereby redefining the
         | boundaries of what can be achieved through the confluence of
         | human and machine capabilities. The profound foresight in
         | recognizing and articulating such a partnership underscores a
         | remarkable understanding of the complementary strengths of man
         | and machine, heralding a new era in the evolution of
         | technological augmentation."
        
         | justin66 wrote:
         | Alan Kay chats / blogs / whatever-it-is-people-do-there a lot
         | on Quora and the question "What would be the place of AI in
         | Doug Engelbart's vision of 'Augmenting Human Intellect'? How
         | can we reconsider things within current AI 'developments'?"
         | recently came up.
         | 
         | https://www.quora.com/What-would-be-the-place-of-AI-in-Doug-...
        
           | walterbell wrote:
           | Thanks for the pointer, didn't know that Quora had threaded
           | discussions.
           | 
           | Excerpt from Alan Kay's answer:                 One big
           | distinction in the 1962 time period is that they thought of
           | "machine intelligence" as being a kind of complimentary set
           | of thinking tools that could be "symbiotic" to how humans
           | were able to think. They were not at all thinking about
           | something like a slave or a major domo, but something more
           | like a research assistant or a "Memex" (the latter was a big
           | influence on Doug's thinking).            In the very late
           | 60s the "official AI researchers" started to think that
           | something like "intelligent Greek slaves" were needed for the
           | "Romans" (Americans), and became rivals to Doug's notion of
           | elevating human thinking rather than just elevating power.
           | This was a bad idea then ... and it's a bad idea today.
        
             | justin66 wrote:
             | The ACM has got a copy of Bush's _Memex_ paper available,
             | it 's certainly worth a read for anyone who has not:
             | 
             | https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/227181.227186
             | 
             | It was interesting to see that Christopher Nolan featured
             | Vannevar Bush prominently in the recent _Oppenheimer_ film.
             | Stripe press published some of his writings recently as
             | well. (I haven 't read this one yet)
             | 
             | https://press.stripe.com/pieces-of-the-action
        
         | tolerance wrote:
         | Would he even be happy with the man-made slop and productively
         | collaborate with other people today?
         | 
         | > The best symbiotic relationship is still man-book or man-
         | pencil-and-paper.
         | 
         | And foremost, man-man.
        
       | boguscoder wrote:
       | There's a book "The Dream Machine"* that is kinda biographical
       | for this paper
       | 
       | * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412
        
         | davedx wrote:
         | Yes I read the book first 6-7 years ago! One of the best books
         | I've read, up there with Skunk Works.
        
           | boguscoder wrote:
           | Huge props for Skunk Works! I found Dream Machine
           | considerably harder to read (non native speaker here) but
           | content is golden anyway
        
             | liendolucas wrote:
             | Author of Skunk Works? Is it related to Lockheed Martin
             | Skunk Works division?
        
               | tesseract wrote:
               | Ben Rich, and yes: he was the 2nd director of the
               | Lockheed Skunk Works.
               | 
               | I think the book may have been out of print for a while
               | but it's easily available now.
        
               | liendolucas wrote:
               | Thanks, for some reason I got downvoted... Just for
               | asking an author. HN is indeed surprising.
        
         | criddell wrote:
         | The Stripe Press edition of the book is a beautiful product,
         | but the font is small. I bought the book but had a hard time
         | reading it so I got a digital copy for my ereader where I could
         | select a larger font.
        
         | uolmir wrote:
         | It is one of my favorites. I actually came to it via "where
         | wizards stay up late", which I would also recommend although it
         | doesn't have the depth and insight of dream machine.
        
           | metroholografix wrote:
           | Wizards for me falls flat (kinda like "soul of a new machine"
           | that's often recommended but which I found a complete waste
           | of time) while the Dream Machine, Dealers of Lightning [1]
           | and Norbert Wiener's biography [2] are all essential reading.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.amazon.com/Dealers-Lightning-Xerox-PARC-
           | Computer...
           | 
           | [2] https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Hero-Information-Age-
           | Cybernetics...
        
             | boguscoder wrote:
             | Id also add The Idea Factory* unless you have even better
             | recommendations for Bell Labs era
             | 
             | * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11797471-the-idea-
             | factor...
        
             | tedunangst wrote:
             | Showstopper, about windows NT, is a good replacement for
             | Soul.
        
             | uolmir wrote:
             | Yeah. I think if I read Dream Machine first I would have
             | enjoyed Wizards less. But some of the history was new to me
             | which meant that I enjoyed Wizards for those aspects and
             | then Dream Machine for the detailed look into why it
             | happened.
        
         | jjice wrote:
         | This is a _dense_ book (in the best way). So much incredible
         | history that's not as well presented anywhere else I've found.
         | Sitting at 500+ pages and the font is pretty damn small, this
         | is one hell of an informative book. We really stand on the
         | shoulders of giants.
        
           | krtkush wrote:
           | Took me about 6 months to finish it. But it was such a fun
           | read! I would put it in the leagues of Making of the Atomic
           | Bomb and Emperors of Maladies.
        
             | ManuelKiessling wrote:
             | And Rocket Men.
        
           | pjmorris wrote:
           | 'The Dream Machine' languished in my 'To read' pile until I
           | started the audiobook while on a road trip earlier this year.
           | I was drawn in and read it through, switching between audio
           | and ebook. I knew parts of the puzzle but it was amazing to
           | see how they all fit together. An amazing book about a series
           | of amazing accomplishments that let us share these ideas so
           | widely and quickly.
        
         | cxr wrote:
         | Here's the first of a three-part interview with Waldrop, the
         | author of The Dream Machine[1] and semi-official Licklider
         | biographer of sorts:
         | 
         | <https://luminary.fm/episode/mitch-waldrop-on-the-dream-
         | machi...>
         | 
         | 1. Not to be confused with Ted Nelson's titled work Dream
         | Machines, one half of the pair Computer Lib/Dream Machines that
         | described Project Xanadu and articulated a vision about
         | computer user freedom that predates Stallman and the free
         | software movement, complete with manifesto.
        
       | hcarvalhoalves wrote:
       | That is a pretty grounded, timeless write-up for 1960.
       | 5.4 The Language Problem              The basic dissimilarity
       | between human languages and computer languages may be the most
       | serious obstacle to true symbiosis.
       | 
       | LLMs unlock the much sought after capacity to query data in
       | natural language, that is why "AI" is such a hype, besides not
       | being intelligent (in terms of reasoning) at all.
        
         | soloist11 wrote:
         | The computer works with binary sequences. LLMs do not change
         | this fact.
        
           | moffkalast wrote:
           | They don't really have to. Even in Star Trek where you can
           | tell the holodeck to do whatever in LLM fashion, there's also
           | a lower level language that can be used for more fine
           | control. It's always good to have levels of abstraction when
           | you need them, this just adds the very top one that was
           | always missing.
        
             | soloist11 wrote:
             | The fact is that they do and it doesn't matter how many
             | abstractions we put on top of the underlying physical
             | reality of digital computation, it will always be digital
             | unless someone figures out how to make analog computation
             | as scalable as digital computation.
        
         | nanna wrote:
         | Licklider was primarily referring to the need to suppercede
         | punch card languages with ones with an interactive human
         | language interface. Chiefly, McCarthy's Lisp, which he directed
         | the Arpa/IPTOs funding towards, but it would apply to
         | practically every language since - though in terms of
         | interactivity still CL most of all.
         | 
         | That said he also lead the funding of AI, so LLMs are not
         | outside of what he was imagining altogether, for example he
         | wrote about the need for a busy executive to communicate with
         | his computer like he would his secretary, etc. But he also
         | seemed to think that interactive programming environments could
         | accomplish this goal.
         | 
         | Sidenote, something that's forgotten is that Lick was a Lisp
         | person. His archives contain his notes to SICP, and various toy
         | programmes.
        
       | photochemsyn wrote:
       | Impressively, the author predicts the rise of declarative
       | programming:
       | 
       | > "The idea may be highlighted by comparing instructions
       | ordinarily addressed to intelligent human beings with
       | instructions ordinarily used with computers. The latter specify
       | precisely the individual steps to take and the sequence in which
       | to take them. The former present or imply something about
       | incentive or motivation, and they supply a criterion by which the
       | human executor of the instructions will know when he has
       | accomplished his task. In short: instructions directed to
       | computers specify courses; instructions-directed to human beings
       | specify goals. ... It is clear that, working within the loose
       | constraints of predetermined strategies, computers will in due
       | course be able to devise and simplify their own procedures for
       | achieving stated goals."
        
         | georgekorsnick wrote:
         | Impressively, the author predicts the man/men-ness of our
         | industry.
        
         | makeitdouble wrote:
         | I was going to quip that "idea guys" can predict things in a
         | useless way when having no idea how to make them a
         | reality...but Licklider went on to have such impact on our
         | field.
         | 
         | It's mindblowing he was central to the creation of Arpanet and
         | multics and so many other critical foundational bricks of
         | today's computing.
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Related. Others?
       | 
       |  _Licklider 1960_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38800451
       | - Dec 2023 (1 comment)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32856009 - Sept 2022 (8
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887654 - April 2021 (8
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis by J. C. R. LICKLIDER (1960) [pdf]_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20642783 - Aug 2019 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18950590 - Jan 2019 (2
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14302515 - May 2017 (2
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11673917 - May 2016 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis [J.C.R. Licklider] (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11534637 - April 2016 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Man-Computer Symbiosis (1960)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8418654 - Oct 2014 (6
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Internet Antichrist [J.C.R. Licklider 's Man-Computer
       | Symbiosis]_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=920121 - Nov
       | 2009 (1 comment - article by David Byrne of all people)
       | 
       | Also related:
       | 
       |  _Who Is This "Licklider" Guy? (2008)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20442278 - July 2019 (11
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _J.C.R. Licklider on the History of Personal Workstations (1986)
       | [video]_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11049205 - Feb
       | 2016 (28 comments)
       | 
       |  _The Computer as a Communication Device (1968) [pdf]_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9014413 - Feb 2015 (2
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _How DEC scientists imagined the Internet in 1968 -- a year
       | before the Internet_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5754287 - May 2013 (1
       | comment)
        
         | olooney wrote:
         | Some related works from my notes on the extended mind thesis:
         | 
         | The Extended Mind Thesis, Andy Clark and David Chalmers (1998)
         | - https://www.alice.id.tue.nl/references/clark-
         | chalmers-1998.p...
         | 
         | Man-Computer Symbiosis, J. C. R. Licklider, (1960) -
         | https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html
         | 
         | As We May Think, Vannevar Bush (1945) -
         | https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-m...
         | 
         | Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework, by Douglas
         | Engelbart (1962) -
         | https://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html
         | 
         | Characteristica universalis, Leibniz (c. 1679) -
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis
         | 
         | Edit: Also, if you're interested in Licklider in particular,
         | The Dream Machine is essential reading.
         | 
         | https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-M-Mitchell-Waldrop/dp/1...
        
       | im3w1l wrote:
       | I assume that the reason this is relevant now is because of the
       | the announcement of FinalSparks NeuroPlatform, that gives SaaS
       | access to brain organoids?
       | 
       | Very cool but also very creepy. Has a clear potential to become
       | the most evil thing humanity has ever done.
       | 
       | Checking now, it has been posted to HN a few times in the last
       | weeks but without discussion really taking off.
       | 
       | https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/worlds-first...
        
       | kaycebasques wrote:
       | > The fig tree is pollinated only by the insect Blastophaga
       | grossorun. The larva of the insect lives in the ovary of the fig
       | tree, and there it gets its food. The tree and the insect are
       | thus heavily interdependent: the tree cannot reproduce without
       | the insect; the insect cannot eat without the tree; together,
       | they constitute not only a viable but a productive and thriving
       | partnership. This cooperative "living together in intimate
       | association, or even close union, of two dissimilar organisms" is
       | called symbiosis [27].
       | 
       | I believe the meaning of symbiosis has evolved since 1960.
       | Symbiosis is now an umbrella term that only implies a close
       | association between two organisms. It doesn't necessarily imply
       | mutual benefit anymore. A mutually beneficial association is
       | called mutualism. An association where one benefits at the
       | expense of the other is parasitism. Commensalism is when one
       | benefits and the other is neither harmed nor benefited. There is
       | also amensalism, where one is harmed and the other is neither
       | harmed nor benefited. Symbiosis is the superset of parasitism,
       | commensalism, amensalism, and mutualism.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis
       | 
       | It's amusing to me when people use "symbiosis" in the old sense
       | and then I start pondering whether the thing they're describing
       | is actually {mutual,amensal,parasit,commensal}ism
        
         | binary132 wrote:
         | FWIW, I've never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than
         | mutually beneficial. I'm not able to cite this but I believe
         | the prefix sym- may imply this.
        
           | kaycebasques wrote:
           | Look at the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page on the
           | topic
           | 
           | > Symbiosis (from Greek sumbiosis, symbiosis, "living with,
           | companionship, camaraderie", from sun, syn, "together", and
           | biosis, biosis, "living")[2] is any type of a close and long-
           | term biological interaction between two biological organisms
           | of different species, termed symbionts, be it mutualistic,
           | commensalistic, or parasitic.[3] In 1879, Heinrich Anton de
           | Bary defined it as "the living together of unlike organisms".
           | The term is sometimes used in the more restricted sense of a
           | mutually beneficial interaction in which both symbionts
           | contribute to each other's support.[3]
           | 
           | It acknowledges the popular use of the term while implying
           | that the technical meaning is broader
           | 
           | > I've never heard of any meaning of symbiosis other than
           | mutually beneficial
           | 
           | This is exactly why it's so funny to me. Some snake oil
           | salesman says "we have a symbiotic relationship with XYZ" and
           | in my head I'm thinking "yes, a parasitic symbiotic
           | relationship..."
        
             | TrapLord_Rhodo wrote:
             | i've never heard of a parasitic relationship being
             | described as symbiotic...
        
               | kaycebasques wrote:
               | > "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a
               | scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean --
               | neither more nor less."
               | 
               | > "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make
               | words mean so many different things."
               | 
               | > "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be
               | master - that's all."
        
               | prewett wrote:
               | It's all fun and games by Lewis Carroll, but given the
               | amount of doublespeak in American cities these days
               | (especially by the Left but also by the Right), I think
               | we need to insist that words have a meaning and you can't
               | twist them to mean the opposite.
        
               | kaycebasques wrote:
               | I am literally sourcing my definition from the first
               | paragraph of the Wikipedia article on symbiosis
               | 
               | I totally get it. People usually mean "mutually
               | beneficial" when they talk about symbiosis. But the
               | deeper we go into this Hacker News thread, the more
               | amusing it gets to me that multiple commenters are really
               | struggling to acknowledge the broader meaning of the
               | term. And what's even funnier is that the broader meaning
               | probably originates from biologists and ecologists;
               | people who are very invested in precise language in this
               | space.
        
               | binary132 wrote:
               | You cannot use Wikipedia as a source, everyone knows
               | this.
        
               | mncharity wrote:
               | Google Trends for _parasitic symbiosis_ etal seems
               | interestingly different for US[1] and Worldwide[2],
               | suggesting the possibility of regionally divergent usage.
               | 
               | [1] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo
               | =US&q=%... [2] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?d
               | ate=all&q=%22paras...
        
             | binary132 wrote:
             | [EDIT] Apologies for the formatting, iOS OCR isn't the
             | greatest and neither is HN block-quote formatting (or I
             | just don't know how to use it correctly.)
             | 
             | Now now, we all know we can't just cite Wikipedia as a
             | source. I hardly think this is as settled a matter as you
             | and the author of the article say it is, and I'm sure that
             | after reviewing the following evidence, you will agree with
             | me!
             | 
             | In fact, the author of the book on symbiosis (ironically
             | cited by the Wikipedia article as evidence that the broad
             | definition is "widely accepted by biologists," even though
             | it actually says the opposite!) actually says: while "many
             | symbiosis researchers use this [broader] definition", "the
             | [broader] definition is not accepted by most general
             | biologists and nonbiologists today, and so fails to
             | communicate effectively," and "the definition of symbiosis
             | widely accepted among both general biologists and the
             | lexicographers who prepare English dictionaries is _an
             | association between different species from which all
             | participating organisms benefit_." (Emphasis author's.)
             | 
             | As cited by the Wikipedia article:
             | 
             | > The definition of symbiosis was a matter of debate for
             | 130 years.
             | 
             | > [...]
             | 
             | > In the 21st century, the latter has become the definition
             | widely accepted by biologists.[13]
             | 
             | [13] Douglas 2010, pp 5-12:
             | 
             | > This brings me to the most frustrating difficulty in the
             | field of symbiosis - the lack of a single universally
             | accepted definition. Disagreement [...] has led to [...] a
             | lack of consensus. Two alternative definitions of
             | symbiosis, neither fully satisfactory, have dominated the
             | literature for many decades: "symbiosis as any association"
             | and "symbiosis as a persistent mutualism."
             | 
             | > [...]
             | 
             | > 1.3 DEFINITIONS OF SYMBIOSIS
             | 
             | > 1.3.1 Symbiosis As Any Association
             | 
             | > The term symbiosis was coined originally by Anton de Bary
             | in 1879 to mean any association between different species,
             | with the implication that the organisms are in persistent
             | contact but that the relationship need not be advantageous
             | to all the participants. De Bary explicitly included
             | pathogenic and parasitic associations as examples of
             | symbioses. Many symbiosis researchers use this definition
             | and, without doubt, some colleagues steeped in the
             | symbiosis literature will have objected to the opening two
             | sentences of this book.
             | 
             | > One key advantage of the definition of de Bary is that it
             | promotes a broad context for research into symbioses. It
             | acts as a reminder that it is important to investigate both
             | the costs and the benefits to an organism of entering into
             | a symbiosis (see figure 1-1a); and it is reasonable to
             | expect some of the processes underlying relationships that
             | are classified as mutualistic and antagonistic to be
             | similar. For example, just as the persistence of certain
             | antagonistic interactions depends on one organism failing
             | to recognize the antagonist as a foreign organism, so some
             | organisms may be accepted into symbioses because they fail
             | to trigger the defense systems of their partner and not
             | because they are positively recognized as mutualists.
             | Nevertheless, the definition of de Bary has two serious
             | shortcomings. First and very importantly, the definition is
             | not accepted by most general biologists or nonbiologists
             | today, and so fails to communicate effectively. Most people
             | do not describe the current malaria pandemic or the potato
             | blight that caused the Irish famine of the 1840s as
             | examples of symbiosis. Second, there are few principles
             | generally applicable to symbioses, as defined by de Bary,
             | but inapplicable to other biological systems. As a result,
             | the "symbiosis as any association" definition is something
             | of a catch-all category. Although this definition does
             | promote further enquiry and insight into symbioses, any
             | insights obtained are unlikely to be common to all
             | symbioses defined in this way.
             | 
             | >
             | 
             | > 1.3.2 Symbiosis As a Persistent Mutualism
             | 
             | > The definition of symbiosis widely accepted among both
             | general biologists and the lexicographers who prepare
             | English dictionaries is an association between different
             | species from which all participating organisms benefit. I
             | subscribe to this definition even though it is not without
             | difficulties.
             | 
             | "The Symbiotic Habit", Angela E. Douglas
             | 
             | https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Symbiotic_Habit.ht
             | m...
             | 
             | If anything, I would think perhaps that we might be able to
             | agree that the Wikipedia article you referenced should be
             | fixed to correctly represent the author's conclusion, or
             | the offending section excised. :)
        
         | carlosneves wrote:
         | I actually prefer to think in terms of the broader sense of
         | symbiosis (including all the types of symbiosis you mentioned).
         | 
         | Sure we want the way we relate to technology to be mutualistic,
         | but in reality we observe many instances of the other kinds of
         | relationships.
        
         | nanna wrote:
         | I think you're confusing a technical definition used among
         | certain academic milieus with an everyday meaning of the rest
         | of a language's speakers whose meaning has not changed since
         | the 1960s. If someone uses the word symbiosis without referring
         | to the distinctions you mention, you can just assume they're
         | referring to what you call mutualism. We do this all the time
         | in language. If someone says they're going to check the
         | internet for something, I don't say well actually what you mean
         | is you're launching your browser and only accessing a subset of
         | the internet called the web... Of course not.
        
           | kaycebasques wrote:
           | I get it. The everyday meaning is mutualism. I'm not
           | confusing anything; please don't write off my perspective as
           | mere "confusion". We are on HN, a place founded on gratifying
           | curiosity. I was fascinated to learn the broader meaning of
           | the term and figured that HN community would also enjoy
           | discussing the rich technical meaning of the term. But
           | instead I got some amusing interactions with the Semantics
           | Police. And it's not like I'm standing on shaky ground with
           | my definition; as I've mentioned before I am sourcing it from
           | the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on symbiosis.
           | But yes, re-reading my original comment, I can see why you
           | all might say "no, YOU're trying to be the Semantics Police!"
           | Not my intention. I can easily hold both meanings of the term
           | in my mind at the same time. The thing I really wanted to
           | focus on was the fascinating richer meaning of "symbiosis"
           | that makes space for benefit/benefit, harm/benefit,
           | benefit/neutral, harm/neutral interactions.
           | 
           | The only thing I take back is the phrasing about it
           | "evolving" since the 1960s. I looked up the biological terms;
           | mutualism goes back to the 1840s at least. I guess Proudhon
           | coined it. Amensalism goes back to the 1870s. Etc. It's still
           | plausible to me that biologists or ecologists really pinned
           | down how these terms relate to each other in the 1960s or
           | later (since ecology as a field of study really ramped up in
           | the 60s) but that would be difficult to prove.
           | 
           | Also, please remember that the topic came up because
           | Licklider, an academic computer scientist and psychologist,
           | used a biological term loosely in the title of an academic
           | article published to an official computer science journal.
        
             | nanna wrote:
             | Much of what you write is interesting, and I appreciate
             | your reflection. I'd just like to qualify something about
             | Licklider. At the time of the Man-Computer Symbiosis in
             | 1960 computer science didn't exist as a discipline, so he
             | wasn't writing as a computer scientist. In fact, Licklider
             | was instrumental in the establishment of computer science
             | as a discipline through directing funds to establish the
             | first departments for it in the US later in the '60s. (I
             | have 1963 in my head but could be wrong.)
             | 
             | A more apt descriptor for him would be cybernetician. He
             | was an acolyte of Norbert Wiener and his man-computer
             | symbiosis can and should be read as his attempt to resolve
             | the conflict in Wiener's writings between humans and
             | machines. Instead of being antagonists, they could mutually
             | benefit from one another as partners in a symbiosis.
        
       | ash-ishh wrote:
       | https://karpathy.ai/blog/licklider1960.html
        
       | dr_dshiv wrote:
       | I think of computers as our exocortex, even more than our
       | symbiont.
        
         | andsoitis wrote:
         | In humans, the cerebral cortex carries out functions, like
         | memory, thinking, learning, reasoning, problem-solving,
         | emotions, consciousness, and sensory functions.
        
       | gnufx wrote:
       | It's always worth reading the originals in a field, who typically
       | had a clear, far-sighted view.
        
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