[HN Gopher] Watching "Grizzly Man" with a bear biologist
___________________________________________________________________
Watching "Grizzly Man" with a bear biologist
Author : cainxinth
Score : 131 points
Date : 2024-07-01 10:59 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.backpacker.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.backpacker.com)
| kevinsky wrote:
| Best quote from the article "It doesn't sound like they needed
| him as much as he needed them." Bears don't need people, just
| leave them alone.
| timonoko wrote:
| I am also real life Grizzly Man. Watching Herzogs film 10 years
| later caused some indigestion.
|
| Those damn bears totally ignored me. At this beach family of
| bears walked past my tent and did not even bother to investigate.
| https://youtu.be/IK0wJ9y266I?si=TokV4ewiEvhl5Qev&t=1470
|
| The reason was probably that I really did not have anything to
| eat. Just some kilos of flour for rainy days. I was living on
| fish and berries for 3 months.
| stavros wrote:
| That can't be it: You had a lot to eat.
| timonoko wrote:
| Erh What. There is only one foodstore on Kodiak. I had what I
| could carry in one dry-pack. I sometimes made bear-proof
| stashes, because coast guard nannies so suggested, but it did
| not seem to matter. Only foxes were real nuisance, they
| chewed my wetsuit for example.
| stavros wrote:
| You had a ton of meat on your bones.
| timonoko wrote:
| Remarkably little. Under 60 kilos after 3 months on fish
| diet.
| southernplaces7 wrote:
| Whoosh. That would be the sound of that bit of humor above
| flying right above your head.
| dpratt wrote:
| How much do you weigh?
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| the reason probably was that they weren't hungry enough. They
| took a measure of risk vs. need
| Aurornis wrote:
| > The reason was probably that I really did not have anything
| to eat.
|
| The reason was that they weren't hungry.
|
| Bears don't randomly kill and eat every animal they encounter.
| HanClinto wrote:
| That is some absolutely beautiful footage. Thank you for
| sharing!
|
| Side note, the ffmpeg stabilization works surprisingly well --
| thanks for sharing your commands in the YT comment!
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Forget that, you need to start marketing your clipper vacuum
| attachment.
| ljf wrote:
| I was interested to see that this link was flagged the other day
| after getting around 15 upvotes but no comments. Pleased to see
| it back as I thought the post was worthy of a read.
|
| Watching this film set me off in a Herzog marathon - amazing
| director.
|
| (edit - a little researching and I see this is the same post that
| I vouched after it was flagged, pleased to see the system lets
| good links back)
| cheese_van wrote:
| <Watching this film set me off in a Herzog marathon - amazing
| director.>
|
| While in Alaska for the shoot, Hertzog took the time to address
| students at the U of Alaska in Anchorage. It was in the
| evening, in a teeny classroom, with only a few people there.
|
| The only thing I remember (man, that was awhile ago) was how
| personable Herzog was. He told the story of his start, that
| when he was just a very young teenager, he stole (stole!) a
| rather expensive camera to shoot his first story. "You stole
| it?" someone conversationally asked? "Yes, I REALLY wanted to
| film," Hertzog gleefully replied.
| cmsefton wrote:
| He recounts this story in his book, Every Man for Himself and
| God Against All, which is a cracking read. The audiobook is
| narrated by him, so I imagine that would be worth a listen
| (not done it myself). I had the privilege to see him talk in
| London several years ago, and the thing that struck me from
| both the talk and the book, was how curious he is is about
| things, and his general attitude of just trying to do the
| things he was interested in regardless of obstacles,
| exploring his ideas, no matter how hard, outlandish or crazy
| they were.
| tstrimple wrote:
| There is a part of me that strongly identifies with the "Grizzly
| Man" and Supertramps of the world. Yeah, often they make stupid
| decisions and go into things unprepared. But they are willing to
| go into the unknown in a way the vast majority of society is not.
| They are trying to experience the world as humans throughout
| history have experienced the world. And their experience ending
| in their death isn't the condemnation that people seem to think
| it is. Because that's where we all end up. And they reached that
| point by doing things that were not just outside of their comfort
| zone but the comfort zone of every normie in this country. They
| are easy to ridicule from the safety of a youtube video, but
| these people actually lived in these places and experienced these
| things in a way the vast majority of modern humanity never will.
| It's easy to judge. It's far more difficult to live in a way that
| defies society. Even when those lives are cut short, I think it's
| worth exploring and celebrating. They were trying to buck the
| trend. They were real hackers in a way most on this site cannot
| really comprehend.
| marcus_holmes wrote:
| I don't identify with it at all, but I'm glad some people do.
|
| When we finally get our shit together and send people to Mars
| despite that being a one-way trip, I'm glad there will be
| volunteers who will sign up for that and go be pioneers. I hope
| they get a school named after them.
| lazide wrote:
| Eh, I'm fairly certain that point was passed _many_ seasons
| before he finally got eaten.
|
| Good point though!
| poulpy123 wrote:
| I don't say I identify with him but I have some respect and
| even admiration for McCandless, because I think I understand
| his feelings from what I've read and watched about him, but I
| don't have the same feeling for Treadwell though
| toenail wrote:
| They were both ill-prepared and harmed their environment.
| Anybody who gets help for their mental health problems
| deserves more admiration.
| southernplaces7 wrote:
| To be fair to McCandles, who was generally extremely
| foolish in what he did too, at least his idiocy and lack of
| really basic preparation didn't get anyone else killed.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Yeah, but someone had to handle his corpse. I mean, SAR
| people can get kinda used to it, but it's still going to
| ruin your day a little.
| qup wrote:
| We should make it illegal to die
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Civilized people walk into the incinerator alive.
| xsmasher wrote:
| I'd rather take my chance at being renewed in carousel
| than be terminated as a runner.
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| someone is going to have to handle everyones
| patrick451 wrote:
| Retrieving him was a choice. This attitude that we have
| to rescue everybody from the backcountry whether dead or
| alive is silly. We could just leave the fools out there.
| At the very least, then we wouldn't have to put up with
| all these arguments about what you should or shouldn't do
| in the backcountry because of the externalities incurred
| when SAR gets involved.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Nah, McCandless deserves no respect or admiration at all. He
| was arrogant, and he died, and someone else had to drag his
| decomposed corpse out of the bus.
|
| At least he didn't get his girlfriend eaten by a bear I
| suppose.
| troyvit wrote:
| > someone else had to drag his decomposed corpse out of the
| bus.
|
| That will happen with all of us probably, whether it's a
| bus, a bathtub, or a senior living apartment. When I read
| Into the Wild I had the same feelings that this arrogant
| idiot deserved to die.
|
| Now that I'm older and I can feel the heat death of me and
| everything I've touched I'm starting to second guess that
| feeling. We're all arrogant, ignorant, and selfish, and
| dying is going to most likely hurt no matter how it
| happens. Why not be a fool?
| verinus wrote:
| Being stupid and selfish should not be celebrated at all but
| warned against!
|
| He did not understand bears, just saw them how he wanted them
| to be and actually did them a severe disservice!
|
| Going outside of you comfort zone is valuable though, but only
| if done with knowledge of your own limits and consequences!
|
| e.g. I live in the Alps and we have much too many stupid
| tourists' emergencies in the mountains due to ignorance than
| should be. They know nothing about the mountains, the tour, how
| weather is up there, what equipment and clothing to bring and
| wear and completely disregard advice of locals. Then Mountain
| Rescue risk their lives and health to get them down. Most of
| them volunteers no less!
| jklinger410 wrote:
| > and actually did them a severe disservice!
|
| I can't imagine what disservice was done. A guy hung around
| bears for a while, and one ate him and his girlfriend.
|
| To the bears literally nothing happened of note.
| tuna74 wrote:
| Two of the bears that ate him and his girlfriend got
| killed.
| Marinus wrote:
| Had you read the article, you would have known that two
| bears were put down, as a direct result of all this.
| baseballdork wrote:
| The bears were shot and killed.
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| Reputation damage
| MisterTea wrote:
| > To the bears literally nothing happened of note.
|
| They ate an exotic meal.
| freddie_mercury wrote:
| >They are trying to experience the world as humans throughout
| history have experienced the world.
|
| Except this isn't really true. Humans throughout history are
| invariably tribal, not solitary. Their solitary pursuits are in
| many ways profoundly modern and in keeping with the entire
| tradition of solipsistic modernity.
|
| > these people actually lived in these places and experienced
| these things in a way the vast majority of modern humanity
| never will.
|
| But...so? The same could be said if they moved to any
| developing country (I live in a developing country) but nobody
| is valorising that in the same way.
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| This silly reddit narrative, invented to push a political
| viewpoint, is utter hogwash. There have always been
| individuals living a solitary lifestyle- explorers and
| homesteaders, scouts, traders, hunters and fishermen.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| And yet humans are absolutely social animals. The science
| is clear.
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| What a cute cop out
| krisoft wrote:
| > they are willing to go into the unknown
|
| But how is it the unknown if anyone with half a brain can
| predict what will happen to them?
|
| > these people actually lived in these places and experienced
| these things in a way the vast majority of modern humanity
| never will
|
| That is true, but it is not like the only way to experience the
| wilderness is by being reckless. There is a ton of people
| enjoying this kind of thing without getting bears killed for no
| good reason.
| jstanley wrote:
| Being reckless and going off unprepared is a different type
| of experience. You can't have the same experience if you come
| prepared.
|
| Yes, you might die, but while you're alive you're really
| _living_.
|
| I'm quite comfortable living an ordinary comfortable life and
| preparing in advance for novel experiences, but I'm glad some
| people throw caution to the wind and chance it. It takes all
| sorts to make the world.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| > Yes, you might die, but while you're alive you're really
| living.
|
| You're very privileged to be able to think this way. And
| very naive.
|
| A lot of people in our world spend a lot of time trying not
| to die, and they don't think, "wow, this is really living"
| while they're scrabbling for survival.
|
| I've been in a few situations where death was close and I
| don't think "wow, I was really living then".
|
| At best I thought "well that fucking sucked", at worst I
| spent years recovering from PTSD.
|
| > Yes, you might die, but while you're alive you're really
| living.
|
| Now _this_ is pod-racing.
|
| I'm sorry you feel you've been missing out by living a safe
| and comfortable life, but you really haven't missed out at
| all.
|
| But shit, just go skydiving or mountaineering, get this
| weird mindset out of your system.
| jstanley wrote:
| There's a big difference between putting yourself in a
| dangerous situation by choice and being in one out of
| necessity.
| yard2010 wrote:
| That's not "really living", what you're talking about takes
| time, and people like these are often really short of it.
| deng wrote:
| Except these "Grizzly Men" and Supertramps of the world can
| only do what they do because society has enabled them to do
| that. Try living that life without any technology,
| transportation, modern outdoor equipment, drugs/medications,
| etc. It's an unproductive and essentially narcissistic way of
| living, whereas hackers create. This is precisely why Timothy
| had to build this ridiculous fantasy of him being the protector
| of these bears, whereas in fact it was him who needed the bears
| to satisfy his egomania.
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| Meh- people have done without the trappings of modern
| society, with varying levels of comfort, for thousands of
| years.
| deng wrote:
| Yep, and how did humans survive this? By going out alone
| into the wilderness? That would be incredibly stupid. You
| die out there alone.
|
| So here's what they did: they formed a group and worked
| together. You might even call it "society".
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| That was not always the case, contrary to what you want
| to believe.
| deng wrote:
| Fortunately, you provide some cold hard facts that
| counter my beliefs.
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| nobody is concerned with your beliefs lol
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| > every normie
|
| Wow, really.
|
| Supertramp wasn't "going outside the comfort zone of normies",
| he was making very bad, very stupid decisions that inflicted
| suffering on those he loved.
|
| Oh, and the people who had to recover his corpse.
|
| Yeah, fuck those normies and their "maps" and "bushcraft
| relevant to their ecosystem", this guy was the real deal huh.
|
| No point in learning from others, just wing it and die a
| pointless needless death.
|
| > I think it's worth exploring and celebrating.
|
| I feel that this points to a certain existential angst you may
| be feeling, but please let me assure you that dying alone and
| scared like these two munters is not the way to resolve it.
|
| And for the love of all that's holy, please stop romanticising
| selfish idiots.
|
| The only nice thing I can say about Supertramp is that he
| didn't directly endanger anyone else, unlike the guy who got
| his girlfriend eaten by bears.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> They were real hackers in a way most on this site cannot
| really comprehend.
|
| Oh we all know what this was. It was someone doing something
| stupid and filming it. He can pretend that he was studying
| behavior but he broke that mirror when he started interacting
| with bears. This was someone creating footage in order to
| market that footage and support his lifestyle, no different
| than people in wingsuits doing dangerous stunts for clicks.
| Both were "experts" in the thing they were doing, right up
| until that thing killed them.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Upvote, though I'm not a fan of "can't comprehend"
|
| But broadly, Nassim Nicholas Taleb's work changed my thinking a
| bit on when I see people doing brave (and/or perhaps goddamn
| stupid) stuff like this. Skin in the game is powerful.
|
| There is something to be said for -- "as long as you're ONLY
| putting yourself in harm's way, do your thing."
|
| Again, I think playing around with bears is dumb as all hell,
| but for (an admittedly different) example, I no longer make fun
| of the Lifelock guy. Went from idiot to hero in my book.
| sethammons wrote:
| You ever wonder if your life's purpose is simply to serve as a
| warning sign for others?
| hluska wrote:
| > They are trying to experience the world as humans throughout
| history have experienced the world.
|
| There was a critical difference between these cases. Early
| humans grew up within nature so they had a lot of skill and
| knowledge. I loved Into the Wild and thought I identified with
| Christopher McCandless too. But the way he packed was not
| conducive with survival. He sadly didn't know enough to know
| how much danger he put himself in.
|
| There is a lot to mourn and a lot to learn. But there's really
| nothing to celebrate - these were complicated people who
| behaved like they had a death wish. Early humans had a survival
| wish and while it didn't always work out, the motivation was
| different.
| HanClinto wrote:
| "It is not the critic who counts..."
| lqet wrote:
| > Wes: There's audio recording of him dying. My advisor listened
| to it. I've never listened to it, but it's 15 minutes of him
| being dismantled by a bear. You can hear his arm being separated
| from his body in it. It's the worst possible way to go.
|
| God, I remember watching the scene in "Grizzly Man" in which
| Werner Herzog listens to this exact audio recording. Even via
| proxy, it's very hard to stomach.
|
| https://youtu.be/IP2BQLOWi4M?si=yy76XPhS6woyyA86&t=170
|
| In Herzog's own words:
|
| > It's the most terrifying thing I've ever heard in my life.
| Being shocked like that, I told her, "You should never listen to
| it, and you should rather destroy [the tape]. It should not be
| sitting on your shelf in your living room all the time."
| RamRodification wrote:
| How can someone tell, in an audio recording of a man being
| eaten by a bear, that at one specific point, you are hearing
| his arm being separated from his body? I'd like to think that
| he narrated it while it was happening. But imma call BS on this
| one.
| nkrisc wrote:
| It might make a rather distinctive sound, based on what I've
| heard from other large mammals being butchered.
| mannykannot wrote:
| And maybe the remaining physical evidence ruled out other
| limbs.
| scotteric wrote:
| He was alive and conscious for the 15 minutes of the attack.
| He may have screamed about his arm to his girlfriend.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| AHHHH NOT MY ARM.
|
| Also, joints make a distinctive noise when being...
| decoupled. But I suspect the narration may have helped nail
| down which joint was in play.
| eddiewithzato wrote:
| gotta give it up to tigers, at least they kill you in the neck
| first
| tokai wrote:
| I think the bear biologist forgot that cats often play with
| their prey before killing it.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Citation for big cats doing that with primates?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| I have seen trailcamera footage of a cougar bringing a
| live deer back to its cubs so they can learn how to kill.
| The cubs seemed confused, playing with the deer.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| I believe I mentioned primates?
| pessimizer wrote:
| What reason would you have to think that primates are
| exceptional?
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| I specified primates because big cats eat more baboons
| than humans, but they kill both species in a very similar
| fashion, so let's open up the problem space.
|
| So, really straightforward, in the context of bears
| eating people, someone implied that a cat will toy with
| you to death. I asked for evidence that they do this with
| primates, someone shared an anecdote about deer that
| isn't relevant to "bears eating people".
|
| I'm not saying primates are exceptional, rather, that the
| story about deer is irrelevant.
| boneghost wrote:
| This is the funniest hill to die on. Thank you.
| tokai wrote:
| Classic HN.
| sethammons wrote:
| If primates are not exceptional as prey, how is the deer
| irrelevant?
|
| Primate == food; Deer == food
|
| Why would one food be different?
| jessekv wrote:
| Primates and Deer are shaped rather differently. Deer are
| 20% neck. I am with EdwardDiego on this one.
| sethammons wrote:
| The presence of a neck means the cat is more likely to
| play with its food? That is outside my world model having
| lived around wild predators, including wild cats, most of
| my life. I had a mountain lion kill a deer three nights
| ago outside my house on our property. It seemingly didn't
| kill it outright since I heard the deer 15 minutes later
| make a similar sound. I have seen the same behavior in
| house cats with mice and lizards. The case is on y'all to
| say why a primate as prey would be different
| albedoa wrote:
| > someone shared an anecdote about [big cats eating] deer
| that isn't relevant to "bears eating people".
|
| Would you admit that it's relevant to "big cats eating
| animals"?
| tomrod wrote:
| That is probably overly specific.
| t-3 wrote:
| This kind of behavior is common to housecats too -
| they'll lame a small animal and bring it to their kittens
| for practice.
|
| Another thing worth noting - most cats like to eat their
| prey intestines first without caring whether or not it's
| alive (for pre-digested fiber and other nutrients not
| common in meat). For larger cats that often hunt by
| leaping from above and breaking the neck in one stroke
| the prey will probably be dead, but otherwise they're
| probably not.
| fullspectrumdev wrote:
| Even without kittens, house cats will often take a
| captured small animal inside (still alive) and dump it
| near their caretaker and expect them to finish the job.
|
| Our cat has only access to a confined (extremely high
| walls) garden (largely left to grow wild for
| environmental reasons) due to proximity to a road where
| people drive extremely badly, and still manages to
| occasionally succeed at bringing something in, usually
| dumping it at someone's feet and going "ok you do it".
| suzzer99 wrote:
| Always fun when the bird starts flying around the house.
| daelon wrote:
| My interpretation of that behavior is that they think
| _you 're_ a kitten. After all, they've never seen you
| kill anything! It's reasonable to conclude that you need
| some practice.
| 1234letshaveatw wrote:
| Also killer whales. It is disturbing to see them playing
| "catch" with a seal. At the same time they typically don't
| harm humans that share their space, it is curious
| sandworm101 wrote:
| https://youtu.be/nU5cMZymSr0
|
| Dont worry, not a violent attack. This is a black bear digging
| into a girl's kayak as she yells at it. Notice how the bear
| ignores her pleadings. I have personally shouted at and scared
| away bears (bc, black bears). They do respond. But once they
| decide you are not a threat, or heaven help you food, they will
| ignore any noise you make. This girl's high-pitched squeals
| fall on deaf ears. The fuzzy dog-like intelligent animal
| becomes a monster.
|
| Fyi, the girl's progressively higher pitch may do well to
| attract help from other humans, but wont work on a predator.
| You want to sound intimidating and big, not small and weak. Of
| course you aren't ever going to sound bigger than a grizzly in
| feeding mode. At that point your only hope is something
| unnatural like a bearbanger (firework) gunshot or metallic
| sound, something to break the predator's confidence. Sounding
| like food won't help.
| ccppurcell wrote:
| If it's black fight back, if it's brown lie down, if it's
| white say goodnight.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Bears are more complex than their species. A black bear in
| protective mode trying to scare you away from its
| cubs/kill/den won't back down from a fight. Better to
| retreat quietly. And lying on the ground won't save you
| from a brown bear in predator mode. You need to read the
| animal just as you would read an aggressive dog. But a
| polar bear within 10 feet of you is another thing. I'm no
| gun nut, but a fully-automatic AR-15 with a 30-round mag is
| totally reasonable when in the arctic. Or an automatic
| shotgun. Don't mess around in polar bear territory.
| snerbles wrote:
| Are you hunting the bear? Or carrying insurance _in case
| of_ a bear attack while conducting some other activity?
| Both are very different things.
|
| 5.56mm is a very small cartridge for game that large, and
| with full auto you will spray wide and in a few seconds
| have an empty mag. Besides, within 10 feet everything
| that can go wrong has gone wrong and you will likely get
| mauled anyway. Large magazine rifles with backup pistols
| do have a niche in hunting packs of aggressive wild boars
| in close quarters, but that is an exceedingly dangerous
| hobby best left to those with a background in door-
| kicking.
| daelon wrote:
| You should spend some time learning about guns, because
| an AR-15 isn't even remotely enough firepower for a bear.
| A common opinion is that 5.56 is so small it's not
| appropriate to hunt _deer_ with, so if the bear has
| decided to eat you then 30 rounds of 5.56 is just going
| to piss it off.
| lazide wrote:
| An AR-15 is woefully undersized for any bear, let alone a
| polar bear to take humanely. Not that it is impossible to
| use something less - the Inuit apparently sometimes take
| polar bear with a 22LR. Which is an upgrade from the
| spears they used to use, apparently. But you are no
| Inuit.
|
| Also, a lot of them disappear on the ice each year.
|
| You also aren't going to get a fully automatic one as a
| civilian without a massive amount of paperwork. A
| military M4 is even less adequate due to the short barrel
| length.
|
| Typically, a 12 gauge with 3" slugs is the minimum 'good
| idea' big bear defense gun.
|
| 45-70 with modern (high pressure) loads, or a 30-06 with
| heavy bullets (200gr partitions) are also considered good
| to adequate - at least for Kodiak brown, which is close.
|
| The issue is with shot placement.
|
| Someone successfully defended themselves against a Kodiak
| brown bear attack with a 9mm because they were lucky and
| got a great shot through the nasal cavity from 6-8ft
| away. Albeit with extremely hot ammo.
| [https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-
| defe...]
|
| do not underestimate how difficult or dangerous that shot
| would be to make. The shooter had been a hunting guide in
| that area for 30 years.
|
| The same bear, if the shot was a couple inches higher,
| would have been able to keep going even if hit with a 12
| gauge slug. They have highly armored skulls. [https://www
| .reddit.com/r/badassanimals/comments/14die7f/kodi...]
| Males in particular are also used to (and regularly do)
| literally fight grizzly bears, so are not cowardly
| opponents.
|
| Many people disappear in that area every year, while
| armed. Eaten by bears is the presumed cause for a
| significant portion of them, but no one can tell for sure
| since the bodies never get found.
|
| The US Air Force used to issue (literal) bazookas to
| airmen it stationed above the arctic circle as it was the
| only adequate man portable weapon they had that would
| consistently and reliably work if they could hit the bear
| with it.
| thegeekpirate wrote:
| If a bear wants you dead and you aren't prepared, you're
| dead.
|
| If you actually care to survive, listen to this great talk
| before heading out to bear country
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y
| polairscience wrote:
| Biologists often have a lens for the world that I deeply admire.
| This one was a very eloquent intetviewee. They were very
| humanizing as well as empathetic and analytical in their
| discussion of Treadwell. They were also pragmatic about what it
| all means in context for the bears and the world. What a person.
| chakintosh wrote:
| The most tragic part about this story is not his death, he chose
| a lifestyle and stuck to it despite all the warnings, for me it's
| the fact he persuaded his girlfriend to camp with him in bear
| territory and ultimately got her mauled as well.
| gadders wrote:
| Anyone who can spend 6 minutes fighting a bear with a frying
| pan is brave as fuck. She was a hero.
| chakintosh wrote:
| That's not my point.
| mpalmer wrote:
| Replies don't have to be a continuation of your point.
| teddyh wrote:
| I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK
| gadders wrote:
| Yes, but you specifically mentioned her. I agree with you,
| but wanted to highlight her heroism (which in an ideal
| world would not have been needed)
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| what is heroic at all about fighting frantically for ones
| ones life?
|
| The brave part Brave I get that. Heroic, not so much.
| pookha wrote:
| Frying pan wasn't the way to go with a grizzly. There was a
| group of collegiate wrestlers that managed to survive a
| violent predatory grizzly attack. Bear was trying to eat
| them.
|
| https://abcnews.go.com/US/wyoming-college-wrestlers-
| recount-...
|
| It seems like they survived the initial attack by sticking
| their hands balls deep into the bear's mouth while it was
| attacking. They took compound bone fractures and one of them
| got a bicep nearly ripped off. Bear was persistent and
| attacked twice. Tried to bury one of them in the dirt (for
| the cubs) and left. They managed to escape with some very
| haggard injuries. Bottom line is I wouldn't go deep into
| grizzly territory unless I had a twelve gauge with 00 buck
| shot. Inland grizzly bears have dwindling fish stock and they
| hunt large game and they're wildly aggressive. Yellowstone
| had 62 instances of bears charging hikers in 2011 from what I
| saw.
| gadders wrote:
| I get most of my knowledge on grizzly bears from the Joe
| Pickett novels about a game warden in Wyoming.
|
| But yeah, I'd want bear spray and a gun as plan b.
| lostemptations5 wrote:
| Maybe she knew what she was doing and accepted the risks
| teh_infallible wrote:
| Rewatching this film, it really seemed fake to me. I love it, but
| I think it's a mockumentary
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| You going to elaborate on that?
| nkurz wrote:
| Not the OP, but I have some of the same concern. No, it's not
| a "mockumentary"; yes, it's based on true events; but based
| on some of Herzog's other films and public statements, there
| are good reasons to doubt that it's a straight factual
| account of what happened. Herzog has frequently stated that
| he's not trying to relate straight facts, but is going for a
| deeper truth.
|
| In pursuit of this, he's frequently bent the facts in his
| other "documentaries" to achieve the narrative that he's
| aiming for. I vouched for the parent comment because I think
| it's a view that should be discussed rather than suppressed.
| I like his art, but equating a Herzog documentary with
| factual truth is likely to end badly.
|
| I've only skimmed it (and I don't have time to read it closer
| today) but this looks to be a decent academic paper that
| explores some of the problems with Grizzly Man:
|
| _Conceiving Grizzly Man through the "Powers of the False"_
|
| _..._
|
| _But is Grizzly Man a documentary at all? Is it a "true" or
| appropriate representation of reality?_ _Grizzly Man engages
| in "creative falsification" -- a cinematic concept theorized
| by Gilles Deleuze in which the filmmaker generates optical
| images which bond to virtual images (or images that evoke a
| people's general past, fantasies, and dreams) to reveal some
| representation of "truth"_
|
| https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/scope/documents/2008/june-2008/.
| ..
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Fascinating paper. The primary point doesn't seem to be
| that Hetzog has bent any facts, but willfully presents his
| subjective interpretation of the world.
|
| It is more akin to the idea that all perception, thought,
| meaning, and opinions operate in a realm distinct from the
| material world.
|
| The following sentences after your quote make this clear.
|
| >But is Grizzly Man a documentary at all? Is it a "true" or
| appropriate representation of reality? Most scholars
| presently writing on documentary posit that the duplication
| of realities through cinema is always fictional because of
| its use of rhetorical figures and emblematic symbolism,
| regardless of claims of objectivity or historical
| significance. As a filmmaker, Herzog shares this
| ideological: all documentary is false even if it conveys
| the myth of objectivity
| solumunus wrote:
| I guess you must be unaware that the guy in the film was
| eventually mauled to death by bears?
| nervousvarun wrote:
| What a strange comment. Rewatching means you've seen it at
| least twice but you think it's a mockumentary?
|
| Please help me with this logic because there's absolutely
| nothing funny about this film which is arguably one of the most
| disturbing ever made.
| hdersch wrote:
| What is definitely wrong in this article is the claim, that only
| bears eat living prey. Also wolves do that. There are many cases
| where wolves attacked animals (cows, sheep, deer), and as soon as
| those are immobilized, start feeding. Sometimes these animals
| survive with horrible wounds. Many images and videos can be found
| via google.
| technothrasher wrote:
| I've personally witnessed both wild dogs and lions in Botswana
| starting to eat their prey before it is dead.
| ericmcer wrote:
| Nature is brutal, we should all be really thankful that we get
| to die in a bed being made as comfortable as possible. For
| every other animal in history death was almost guaranteed to be
| something scary and painful.
| vundercind wrote:
| Nature's like living in a 24/7 horror movie for most things
| that aren't humans.
|
| All those pretty birds you see are like one mistake and bit
| of bad luck from being ripped to shreds--at all times. Yikes.
| ziofill wrote:
| Yep. That keeps happening e.g. in the mountains in northern
| italy. Cows with huge wounds stumble back from the field, it's
| horrific. And when the farmers kill a wolf it's an outpour of
| indignation from animal welfare :/
| suzzer99 wrote:
| Hyenas too. They sometimes chase their prey for hours until it
| drops, then leisurely consume the softest parts first, like the
| genitalia.
| krig wrote:
| I doubt that statement was meant to be some kind of absolute
| rule, big cats will definitely eat you alive if they feel like
| it. But at least you are perhaps more likely to get a quick
| death..
|
| The advice I grew up with (in swedish bear country) is to do
| these things, in order:
|
| 1. Make noise while in the woods, bears will generally avoid
| you if they know you are there. You don't want to startle a
| bear.
|
| 2. If charged, stay calm, make yourself big and talk to the
| bear, move slowly.
|
| 3. If attacked, play dead.
|
| With luck, the bear will lose interest once it doesn't perceive
| you as a threat. If it's hungry, well, bad luck. There have
| been cases of people scaring bears off by punching them in the
| nose, so as a final resort I guess that's something to try.
| suzzer99 wrote:
| Grizzly: play dead. Black bear: fight back. Polar bear: make
| your peace with God.
| butisaidsudo wrote:
| If it's brown, lay down. If it's black, fight back. If it's
| white, good night.
| hackeraccount wrote:
| If it's jelly, put it in your belly. If it's teddy, take
| it to beddy.
| jaredhallen wrote:
| Sedges have edges, rushes are round. Grasses are hollow
| and grow in the ground.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I think it is extremely common in the animal world, if not the
| default. Thinking of other biomes Fish and reptiles almost
| always do it. I suspect anything which a substantial size
| difference does it and it is only avoided when you have pretty
| that is very dangerous to the predator.
| teddyh wrote:
| > _What is definitely wrong in this article is the claim, that
| only bears eat living prey. Also wolves do that._
|
| And horses1. And deer2.
|
| 1. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnYNmGMsU18>
|
| 2. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQOQdBLHrLk>
| User23 wrote:
| I read once that the root word that evolved into all the modern
| Indo-European variants of bear began as a euphemism to avoid
| having to say the creature's name and risking summoning it. It
| meant something like "the brown one."
| neaden wrote:
| In English, and other Germanic language, it comes from the
| brown one. In Slavic languages bears are called honey eaters.
| In other languages though like Welsh they don't appear to have
| had the taboo and use a deririvative of the older PIE word,
| which is thought to be something like rktho.
| gavindean90 wrote:
| If you haven't seen this you might enjoy:
| https://xkcd.com/2381/
| overkill28 wrote:
| The clips reminded me of how great The Grizzly Man soundtrack is
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man_(soundtrack)
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| Richard Thompson is a genius.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| I went on a Grizzly Man return deep dive the other day and found
| the autopsy reports and ranger reports. Those rangers had a very
| scary time returning to that scene. There is a lot to be learned
| here.
|
| https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/foia/upload/03-109_KATM_Treadwel...
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