[HN Gopher] Coffee helped the Union in the Civil War
___________________________________________________________________
Coffee helped the Union in the Civil War
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 131 points
Date : 2024-06-30 00:41 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| mrblampo wrote:
| Fun article! Particularly enjoyed the anecdotal evidence from
| individual soldier's writing.
| brightball wrote:
| Studying the civil war is really interesting and I wish schools
| did a better job of it. There is so much material from letters
| people wrote at the time that is just fascinating to read.
| kristianp wrote:
| Reminds me of a recent story of how speed kept the germans
| advancing for days on end in WWII, in the blitzkrieg.
|
| "How Methamphetamine Became a Key Part of Nazi Military Strategy"
| https://time.com/5752114/nazi-military-drugs/
| cj wrote:
| Still in use by the US Air Force. Although it's amphetamine /
| modafinil instead of meth. I'm always curious if they train
| while medicated, which seems kind of necessary considering how
| it modifies decision making behavior.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_and_no-go_pills
|
| Edit: Actually looks like amphetamine isn't approved anymore.
| rafaelmn wrote:
| Modafinil doesn't really affect decision making ? Being
| exhausted is probably way bigger impact, even under
| Modafinil.
| BossingAround wrote:
| Well, per [1], it increases dopamine, norepinephrine,
| serotonin, and other chemicals in the brain. It is highly
| unlikely that it has no effect on one's decision making
| (esp. when you take it when you are _not_ very tired). It's
| more likely that you don't notice the effects, but the
| effects would likely be measurable.
|
| It's the same with caffeine. I'd wager a guess that most
| people don't think it influences their decision making...
| And yet it seems it does (e.g. [2]).
|
| [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-
| dentistry/...
|
| [2] https://www.freethink.com/health/does-caffeine-harm-
| your-dec...
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I remember reading a study on modafinil that found people
| on modafinil for a couple days when giving directions where
| apt to be irritable and not throwing in identifying
| details.
|
| so a modafinil user "Go three blocks that way, turn left,
| go two blocks turn left again, turn right immediately"
|
| non-modafinil user "Go that way until you see the Circle-K,
| turn left, then it's two blocks where you have to turn left
| again, the street name is something like Majors way, and
| then the first time you can turn after that you turn right
| - there's a large drawing of a man drinking coffee on the
| side of the building"
|
| on edit: unfortunately no idea where I read this but that
| was a big let-down for me as it implied there was perhaps
| no such thing as a free ride. Bummer.
| reaperman wrote:
| Modafinil increases my risk-taking behavior much more than
| amphetamine does, though otherwise has much lower physical
| side effects than amphetamine. Took me awhile to realize I
| was being incredibly flirty due to modafinil. It was
| typically well-received and it took me a long time to
| realize that it was modifying my behavior. But once I knew
| what to look for I saw the modifications across wide parts
| of my life including work and personal goals. Generally
| made me take on more ambitious goals.
|
| Eventually I suffered some traumatic events and modafinil
| started causing anxiety, especially when mixed with
| caffeine, and I found vyvanse was better after that for
| managing my ADHD without quite as much paralyzing anxiety.
|
| Everyone's brain reacts very differently to each stimulant.
| On the very rare occasion that I take cocaine I usually
| just fall asleep and enjoy a hard nap! I don't experience
| about 90% of the effects my friends report from it.
|
| Caffeine keeps me awake all night long even if I have just
| half of a cup of coffee any time after 11AM, and increases
| my anxiety to the point where it's very difficult to be
| productive.
|
| Dextroamphetamine and Vyvanse both affect work productivity
| similarly for me but dextroamphetamine shuts down my social
| interaction, whereas Vyvanse increases it. This is
| particularly strange because they "should" be the exact
| same active drug once the Vyvanse is metabolized. Biology
| is still very much being discovered and there is a lot that
| we just don't know yet.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Very much underestimate the impact of exhaustion. If I
| recall correctly, I read a study that driving after a long
| day of work was many times more dangerous than driving over
| the legal limit for alcohol. Kind of puts both into
| perspective
| freedomben wrote:
| Modafinil has been the go to pill for the Air Force for quite
| some time. I don't know about nowadays, but in the mid 00s
| they handed it out like candy in the war zones. Same with
| Ambien. (source: I was there)
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Here are the current details:
|
| - "Go pills" are either dextroamphetamine (Similar to
| adderall), or modafinil. They are not used for normal day-to-
| day training. They are used reasonably heavily on deployments
| and international flights, to keep you sharp in these
| situations (Sudden combat after a long uneventful air patrol,
| or just fighting drowsiness while crossing the ocean and
| needing to mid-air refuel for the 5th time etc.)
|
| No-go pills (eg ambien) are also common on deployments,
| mainly to deal with shift changes, or dealing with sunlight
| affecting the circadian rythm.
|
| Use is up to the individual. I found that Dex has a severe
| impact on my sleep, even when taking 14+ hour prior. It is a
| very effective mental performance enhancer and obliterates
| exhaustion IMO, if you don't develop a tolerance. Ie, if you
| have available when flying, and take only when needed.
|
| Rule of thumb: Always fly with dex available, but only take
| when needed. Never have ambien anywhere in the cockpit, or
| you risk mixing them up.
| toast0 wrote:
| > They are not used for normal day-to-day training.
|
| That makes sense, but you probably should do some training
| with them, so first use is not in a dangerous situation.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Correct - called "ground testing"
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| The animated show "Archer" (action/comedy TV series) season 9
| episode 7 had this as a plot point. From the IMDB trivia
| section:
|
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7576240/trivia/
|
| "Pervitin was one of the first commercially available
| formulations of methamphetamine hydrochloride (salts); it also
| contained large doses of caffeine. It was used by Nazi
| soldiers, sometimes along with cocaine, to help them remain
| alert on night patrols, long marches and also to help increase
| aggression and stamina during battle. Pervitin was heavily used
| by Stuka (a German fighter plane) pilots to help keep them
| alert on long patrol flights, hence the nickname "Stuka
| tablets". By 1940 the German Army had started greatly reducing
| the number of tablets each solider was allowed to have due to
| the severe side effects. While the drug was in their system, it
| had the benefit of causing decreased fear and increased
| strength, stamina, aggression and gave them a high resistance
| to pain. However, after the drug wore off, soldiers often took
| several days to recover. They suffered from a form of
| amphetamine "hangover" and were pretty much useless for the
| next few days because they acted more like zombies than
| soldiers; this was mainly because of the long duration of
| methamphetamine's effects which would cause soldiers to be
| awake for a few days straight, so it would take several days
| for the body to recover. Pervitin use also was responsible for
| Nazi soldiers becoming too aggressive and attacking fellow
| soldiers and superior officers. It also caused some to commit
| war crimes by killing civilians and raping women and young
| girls as amphetamines often greatly increase libido and
| decrease inhibitions."
| jordanb wrote:
| This podcast talks about Nazi drug use:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3_3aUKfLoI
|
| One of the takeaways is that meth works ok during fast blitz
| campaigns like Poland or France where you want to get the whole
| thing over in a few weeks at most. But it works horribly in a
| long attritional fight like the eastern front where soldiers
| start suffering from the cognitive and physical consequences
| while still in the field fighting.
| xhkkffbf wrote:
| Another good book is _Blitzed_.
|
| A bit about it:
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/books/high-on-hitler-and-...
| bevan wrote:
| There's a short and fun book called Blitzed about "PED" use in
| WWII. Covering German pharmaceutical industry's monopoly over
| certain stimulants, Hitler's unlikely doctor who shot him up with
| everything under the sun, and the ultimate consequences for
| everyone involved (addiction, exhaustion, insanity).
| BossingAround wrote:
| Meth specifically is believed to be one of the contributing
| factor in the early success of the German army. Interestingly,
| I believe the same was used by the Japanese to encourage
| suicidal attacks, since, it turns out, it's easier to carry one
| when you're high as a kite.
| mikemitchelldev wrote:
| Sounds like anything to eat or drink would have helped.
| morkalork wrote:
| The know how and ability to manufacture condensed milk is
| another famous example from the civil war.
| BossingAround wrote:
| Caffeine is a very interesting drug that makes capitalism and
| just daily work bearable. It's interesting that this went all the
| way to 1800s for the US.
|
| After reading Your Mind on Plants [1], I decided to do an
| experiment, and stop any caffeine intake for ~3 months. After ~1
| month, I felt "normal". Only when you cannot rely on a drug, a
| clutch, you realize how many pressures you face every day. One
| might have a deadline, something doesn't work, some part of work
| is boring... Maybe you just slept badly. Coffee fixes all of
| those.
|
| Nothing is free though, and soon, you'll discover your sleep is
| not the best pretty much every day of the week. That, in turn,
| forces you to consume more caffeine, and thus the addiction cycle
| begins.
|
| Interestingly, after being 3 months caffeine free, I succumbed to
| the pressure and started drinking some amount of caffeine again
| (work needs to be done, caffeine makes it easier to concentrate
| -> it's really difficult to say no).
|
| I would encourage everyone to examine their relationship with
| this particular drug. It's insane to me that the population in
| 1800s was already so addicted to the drug that the lack "plugs"
| threaten to lose the civil war.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Plants-Michael-
| Pollan/dp/05...
| zeta0134 wrote:
| I went on a similar caffeine experimentation journey, and
| eventually settled on one (1) cup of coffee in the morning,
| followed by usually plain water for the rest of the day. I
| appreciate the boost to "get a task started" willpower that the
| caffeine provides, and by limiting my intake, it's mostly
| flushed out of my system by the time I'm ready to sleep. For my
| body, this balance seems to work well: I sleep deeply, dream
| vividly, and am occasionally woken by nightmares. (always
| wasps.) Usual stuff.
|
| Ideally I'd avoid caffeine entirely, but when I tried to
| sustain this (for over a year) I felt lethargic and fatigued
| more often than not. From a willpower perspective, it was far
| too easy to go, "I'm too tired to start this task right now,
| I'll put it off." Some of that is mental, I realize, but the
| quick fix won. I have stuff to do and I don't want to spend
| months in misery trying to force a major lifestyle change when
| the coffee is right there.
|
| What I *cannot* do anymore is drink caffeine (in any form) all
| day long, like I used to when I was younger. I have no idea how
| I slept at all. I'm partly convinced I mostly did not, and in
| hindsight it explains a lot of weird sleep consistency issues I
| was constantly struggling with.
| Nathanba wrote:
| Same journey for me, sadly I don't think drinking coffee
| consistently is the perfect answer. No matter what amount I
| drink it either becomes too little (because I adapt) or too
| much (Far worse sleep, somewhat depressive, can't work out or
| jog anymore because of heart fluttering, only truly feel good
| for ~4-5h per day, then worse all day). I think the only
| theoretical way to consistently get value out of coffee is to
| drink it during the work week and then force myself to
| withdraw on the weekend so my body always has a fresh
| response to it. The reason why I don't like this either is
| because I obviously lose two entire days of my life to
| feeling pretty bad per week and you still eventually start
| drinking more because it's inevitable. Now what I remember
| seeing over the years is that whenever somebody would mention
| that they don't drink coffee and that person is still a high
| performer then they always seemed to be really into fitness
| and sports. Maybe this is the only way, using physical
| exercise as a stimulant instead of coffee.
| mirsadm wrote:
| Caffeine is great for working out. I have a coffee before
| running or lifting weights. It's also usually included into
| lots fitness oriented supplements.
| mirsadm wrote:
| If you feel tired and lethargic without coffee than to me
| that is a bigger problem to solve. I find the view on coffee
| here so strange. If I don't drink coffee I still get up and
| go for a run, I can still do everything just the same. My
| performance at work is the same. I drink it because I enjoy
| the taste and that's where it ends.
| BossingAround wrote:
| > I drink it because I enjoy the taste and that's where it
| ends.
|
| Coffee is a very bitter drink. I don't know you of course,
| but my guess is that what you like more is the dopamine
| caffeine releases in your brain, which you've now
| associated with the taste. You can try and experiment with
| good decaf coffee to see if it is actually the taste that
| you like.
| jameshart wrote:
| A strange sentiment. Do you think in general people can't
| like 'bitter' flavors?
|
| Bitterness is very loosely defined in general - we know
| what 'sweet' and 'salt' are; bitterness is sometimes
| associated with some sort of acidity, but a lot of people
| seem to just describe things that have strong flavor but
| lack sweetness as 'bitter'. Lemon, chocolate, kale, and
| red wine are all sometimes described as 'bitter' and they
| have virtually no common flavor compounds.
|
| It's definitely possible to like the taste of coffee. My
| evidence for this is that when I drink coffee that tastes
| bad, I don't like it as much.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Acidity causes things to taste sour, not bitter.
| Bitterness is associated with alkaloids (many alkaloids
| are poisonous, so the fact we have taste-buds for
| bitterness is an advantage).
|
| I experience lemons as both sweet and sour, but certainly
| not bitter.
|
| [Edit] Perhaps the peel is bitter; the white pulp is
| certainly bitter.
| klyrs wrote:
| If you like coffee, dark chocolate, grapefruit, kale,
| arugula, etc., you might just love bitter flavors.
|
| Many people cut their coffee with milk and sugar to
| complement the bitterness. But then they typically enjoy
| the resulting flavor, too.
|
| I've known plenty of people who loved caffeine but not
| coffee. They drink soft drinks or take caffeine pills.
|
| Believe people when they say they like the flavor of
| coffee.
| mirsadm wrote:
| I drink decaf in the afternoon. Otherwise I'll have an
| Americano with a little bit of milk at least twice a day.
| I'll happily drink espresso and filter coffee though.
|
| Personally I don't find well made coffee bitter at all.
| BirdieNZ wrote:
| Coffee isn't inherently bitter, but overextracted coffee
| is bitter. If you ever have the chance to try a well-
| extracted specialty drip coffee I encourage you to try
| it, it's quite an eye-opening experience as to what black
| coffee can taste like!
| themadturk wrote:
| Twenty or thirty years ago (the time flies!) the
| Starbucks closest to me in downtown Seattle sold a very
| limited amount of Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee. They
| sold beans and brewed it for day or before running out.
| It was the smoothest, most flavorful coffee I've ever
| had.
| pipe2devnull wrote:
| Coffee isn't all that bitter if it's a decent cup of
| coffee. I love coffee but mostly drink decaf and also
| like 90+% dark chocolate. What makes you think people
| don't like bitter things?
| nradov wrote:
| A lot of people such as Mormons manage to bear capitalism just
| fine without caffeine. I like to have a little coffee most days
| but let's not exaggerate it's necessity.
| haltingproblem wrote:
| Underrated comment.
|
| Perhaps Mormons have in their belief system a strong
| motivating stimulant? I am trying to avoid use of the word
| drug here as it is pejorative. Perhaps, Coffee is just what
| we need to overcome the ennui and pointless of modern
| existence and a set of religious (or cultural) beliefs helps
| us do the same.
|
| This would also imply that Caffeine consumption is lower in
| societies that are religious and have strong belief systems -
| religious or cultural, which can be tested!
| rayiner wrote:
| I agree with Razib Khan, who calls organized religion a
| form of "social technology."
| Arn_Thor wrote:
| I'd venture that Mormons (and SDAs, with which I'm more
| familiar) have more close knit (Caucasian) communities for
| generations that support each other and have elevated their
| collective socioeconomic status. So perhaps they're less
| likely to be bottom-level corporate drones, code moneys or
| Amazon warehouse workers.
| nradov wrote:
| Existence is no more pointless in the modern (or
| postmodern) era than at any previous time. Some people need
| to get over themselves with this "ennui" nonsense.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| Marx wrote this just prior to the Civil War. Religion is the
| sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless
| world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium
| of the people.
| rayiner wrote:
| Really ironic thing to say about the Civil War, which was
| to a great degree a holy war:
| https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/05/21/how-
| abraha...
|
| The Republican coalition of religious conservatives and
| business has its origins in the Civil War, where northern
| industry joined forces with fundamentalist Christians who
| opposed slavery. A quarter of all union soldiers were
| immigrants, mostly poor German immigrants. Iowa sent more
| volunteers (per capita) to fight for the union than any
| other state. What motivated all those people to fight and
| die in a war between British people? They had no personal
| stake in the war--they didn't have industry powered by
| southern resources like cotton, nor were any battles fought
| anywhere near their homes. For them, fighting for the union
| was about vindicating a religious opposition to slavery.
|
| It was the confederates that portrayed themselves as being
| on the side of "science" against religious "zealots."
| https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-
| sources/cornersto.... To make sense of that, put yourself
| in 1861. That was more than a century before we had the
| technology to determine that humans are genetically all the
| same. If you were someone who looked at the world--what
| people had built in Africa and what they had built in
| Europe--and said "these people are all the same," that was
| a statement of faith.
| samatman wrote:
| > _That was more than a century before we had the
| technology to determine that humans are genetically all
| the same._
|
| What a comically false thing to say.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Really ironic thing to say about religion given how deeply
| Christian Marxism is (or how Marxist Christianity,
| specifically, is). We're all equal ~~under God~~, sharing
| is caring, a camel can go through the eye of a needle more
| easily than a rich man can ~~get into Heaven~~ stay out of
| a gulag... :D
| systems_glitch wrote:
| It is a common misconception that Mormons are not allowed to
| consume caffeine, the limitation is actually on "hot drinks,"
| which is interpreted as having meant tea and coffee
| specifically in the time it was written down. They still
| drink soda and other heated drinks such as wassel, hot
| chocolate, and postum (a morning coffee substitute most folks
| find absolutely disgusting).
|
| (we live near a de facto Mormon college and pester our
| neighbors, who are largely Mormon professors, about such
| things)
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| all the mormons I know are tee-totalers and drink only
| water or uncaffeinated drinks.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| Most of them seem to drink soda here; in fact, we have a
| Mormon-owned soda shop in town that a lot of the school-
| age Mormon kids seem to hang out at! I've been told it's
| often a regional thing, that they're less "Mormon-y"
| (their term, not mine) if there's a community of them in
| the area. I suppose it's probably like any other group,
| and they feel less like outsiders.
|
| Kinda interesting being somewhat immersed in what's
| effectively a conservative subculture that's supposed to
| not shun folks who aren't part of it. We have some weird
| conversations.
| vlachen wrote:
| Swig, right? We had one of those open here and the line
| was ridiculous for months. Not my jam, but always
| blocking access to my coffee shop.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| This one's called Straws.
| nunez wrote:
| Didn't know wassel was big with the Mormons. Wassel is
| delicious! Denton, TX has a wassel fest every year; that's
| how I got introduced to it.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| Seems to be, at least with some of the families around
| here! A bunch of them also get together and do caroling
| around the holidays, so maybe it's related to that?
| CommieBobDole wrote:
| My understanding is that it changed in 2012 - the church
| released a statement then saying that the prohibition only
| applied to coffee and tea. Before that, it was ambiguous
| but customarily interpreted to apply to all caffeinated
| drinks.
|
| As a (anec?)data point, I had a Mormon friend growing up
| and they drank caffeine-free Coke for this reason.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| It seems many things have officially changed-but-always-
| been-that-way :P Everyone's got old-timey atlas prints of
| central America instead of upstate NY now.
| varnaud wrote:
| My Mormon friend in college was an avid consumer of Monster
| Zero.
| bdjsiqoocwk wrote:
| I was 100% caffeine free for a year and a half while keeping a
| demanding full time job. That eventually ended when COVID
| lockdowns started (it's unclear even to me what the
| relationship between the two was; maybe my subconscious used it
| as an inspector excuse to go back)
|
| Caffeine doesn't seem to affect my sleep until I get to absurd
| amounts like 10 cups in a day, which some times it does happen.
|
| Currently I love the drug and intend to keep using it.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| I think this is really understated. After developing a facial
| twitch and realizing I was consuming more than 1000 mg of
| caffeine a day, I switched to decaf once the particular project
| was over. No one told me it's physically addictive and has
| withdrawal symptoms! It's the only thing that would keep me
| functional and able to drive on with a project though.
| brightball wrote:
| My wife and I switched to decaf about 6 months ago and we are
| pretty happy with it. Generally sleeping better and I can
| have 2-3 cups throughout my morning without going off the
| rails.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| Oh I can drink a quart or two of regular coffee and still
| sleep like a rock, not get the jitters, etc. Pretty much my
| mom's entire side of the family is like that. Switching to
| decaf got rid of the facial twitch, but even after two
| months (in between projects) I was basically completely
| ineffective at even personal projects. I told the doctor
| about it and it's apparently likely I have adult ADHD.
| wombat-man wrote:
| Yeah I used to just drink coffee or energy drinks all day.
| Now I'm sticking to one in the morning and a less caffeinated
| drink in the afternoon and my days are going a lot better.
| chronogram wrote:
| Why do you go from extremely high intake to decaf, or do you
| mean to not go back to using caffeine for your next project?
| For me a 200mg tablet in the morning works well, more doesn't
| give me more benefits and by bedtime a lot or most has gone.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| I had no idea there was withdrawal, and I have no
| psychological addiction to it, so I just switched to decaf
| not thinking anything of it, other than that I'd probably
| be more tired for a while.
| swaginator wrote:
| > It's the only thing that would keep me functional and able
| to drive on with a project though.
|
| Don't you think that part of this could be stress? Also
| potentially dehydration. I have had eye twitches a couple
| times during long road trips where I drank Red Bull or
| Monster to keep focused, and was not drinking enough water.
| But I have never had twitching from caffeine under normal
| circumstances, since I usually drink 2 parts water for every
| part caffeinated drink (lots of bathroom breaks).
| systems_glitch wrote:
| Probably not, I drink a lot of water, especially during hot
| weather -- I walk to work and back twice a day no matter
| the weather.
| samatman wrote:
| For what it's worth, I've found that muscular twitches are
| always a symptom of magnesium deficiency, which caffeine does
| exacerbate.
|
| Since I adore coffee and don't intend to stop drinking it, I
| supplement with magnesium drops in the water I drink large
| amounts of all day. This has completely prevented tics and
| twitches, and greatly reduces jaw tension as well.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| I did this too. After I got through the withdrawal, I basically
| found myself sitting at my desk and waiting to die.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| I stopped caffeine. It sucked for a week, and I'd taken a week
| off because I knew it would be hell. And it was.
|
| But after a week I felt free.
|
| I barely consume caffeine anymore, like if I'm with friends at
| a cafe or something. Otherwise I don't make tea or coffee at
| home unless I have guests who want some.
|
| Some results I've noticed is that I literally don't give a shit
| anymore about any pressures. I'll just #dealwithit and it's
| fine.
|
| I also sleep way better and I am able to utilize the full
| waking day (I wake up at 6am and I sleep at 10pm).
|
| One thing that's strange is that it seems caffeine no longer
| has much effect like it used to in the rare occasion I'll have
| a coffee. I'm able to sleep just fine and I feel no burst of
| energy or anything. Just a warm drink so maybe it warms me up a
| bit when it's cool.
|
| Idk. 10/10 would recommend quitting caffeine. My mind is way
| clearer (no brain fog from being groggy) and it runs like a
| diesel engine just pulls like a mfer all day.
| dieselgate wrote:
| Great analogy being like a diesel engine, keep it up
| nunez wrote:
| I did the same back in December...while I was undergoing sleep
| compression during my CBT for insomnia treatment. Withdrawal on
| hard mode!
|
| What motivated me to do so was trying a single origin decaf
| that my local roaster had available and realizing that, yes,
| decaf coffee can taste like regular coffee! I literally decided
| to stop drinking caffeinated coffee after that first cup.
|
| Things were rough for about a month but all good after that.
|
| The nice thing about drinking decaf every day is that caffeine
| _really_ works when I do choose to use it. Super helpful while
| driving long distances.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > The nice thing about drinking decaf every day is that
| caffeine _really_ works when I do choose to use it.
|
| And how.
| jorvi wrote:
| Decaffeinated coffee's main problem isn't that it tastes bad,
| it's that it goes stale incredibly quickly.
|
| You'll have to consume a steady amount of coffee each day if
| you want to finish your supply on time. Or purchase only
| small amounts.
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| I thought the main problem was that it's made with the same
| chemicals used to do dry cleaning.
| gruez wrote:
| That's one way of making it, but it's by no means the
| only way. Also, the reason why it tastes bad isn't
| because it's "same chemicals used to do dry cleaning",
| it's that the decaffination process changes the physical
| structure of the beans, making it easier to stale.
|
| source for both claims:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYTSdlOdkn0&,
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszQ2JR3Olc
| Arn_Thor wrote:
| For me it's not that clear cut. Caffeine is a motivating
| booster each day but if I stick to my rhythm, one in the
| morning and one at lunch, then it doesn't affect my sleep at
| all. It's only when I'm pressured to go beyond that I suffer
| srid wrote:
| > For me it's not that clear cut. Caffeine is a motivating
| booster each day but if I stick to my rhythm, one in the
| morning and one at lunch, then it doesn't affect my sleep at
| all.
|
| Same with me.
|
| > It's only when I'm pressured to go beyond that I suffer
|
| What I discovered was that If I _gradually_ increase my
| consumption, then it doesn 't cause any issues. There was a
| point where I'd drink my 4 or 5th cup of coffee very close to
| bed time and still get a good night of sleep. But the key was
| to gradually build up to that point.
|
| I drink 2 or 3 cups now (mainly because I can no longer
| consume coffee after large meals, and OMAD at night is no
| longer sustainable).
| hesdeadjim wrote:
| Exactly my experience. I have a big cup of cold brew in the
| morning and nothing the rest of the day. When my head hits
| the pillow at night I'm out and sleep without any
| interruption.
|
| There was a point a long time ago where I wasn't under
| control, and in an effort to rein it in I quit for two
| months. It was awful. I struggled to concentrate and felt no
| real benefit from being "clean".
|
| I decided to set limits and started up again. That blast of
| caffeine in the morning is all it takes to set my brain on
| the right path the rest of the day. My theory is that people
| who end up struggling with caffeine, do so because they
| equate more caffeine with being even more productive. If you
| treat it like you would a (enjoyable) medicine, you can have
| the best of all worlds.
| woleium wrote:
| I did the same, but then transitioned to 10 mins of
| vigorous exercise instead in the morning. I found that
| getting my heart rate up was a better stimulus
| op00to wrote:
| 10 minutes of rowing is an excellent replacement for
| coffee for me, having quit coffee due to hypertension.
| FooBarBizBazz wrote:
| Yeah, I do love me some coffee, but it's amazing what
| just a couple push-ups will do. All of a sudden you have
| blood flow in the upper part of your body and you just
| feel "ready to go".
| bookofjoe wrote:
| James Bond spent 5 minutes under a needle-sharp cold
| water shower before breakfast.
| karlzt wrote:
| Pavel Durov (Telegram's CEO) does something similar but
| in a bathtub filled with 0 degrees water with ice added
| in it too.
| srid wrote:
| Since it has now become fashionable to give up on coffee, it
| would be refreshing to hear anecdotes from "the other side" as
| well -- people who drink plenty of coffee, throughout the day,
| but do not suffer from significant negative side-effects (i.e.,
| they continue to get good sleep, have low stress, etc.)
| bodhi_mind wrote:
| People want to find the secret to living with joy in their
| lives. Someone who "quits caffeine" has enough mindfulness to
| have noticed something wasn't quite right in their life and
| they had the courage to try and change it. That mindset right
| there is the key to reducing stress. It's not caffeine
| (unless you're consuming a lot), it's a perspective and
| framing thing. Daily coffee ritual can absolutely be a part
| of a routine that has been having negative affects on your
| state of mind, but it's much more complex than "caffeine is a
| drug and it's bad for you".
| luzojeda wrote:
| I don't consider I drink _"plenty"_ of coffee throughout the
| day but I can't remember the last day I went without some
| form of caffeine. On average I take 1 cup in the morning with
| some milk and sometimes mate or black tea, both of which have
| caffeine as well, in the afternoon... plus Coke or other
| caffeinated drinks as well here and there.
|
| Ok maybe it could be plenty for some people, but for me 4
| cups a day would be plenty lol.
|
| Maybe caffeine doesn't affect me much to this point and
| that's why I don't have any problem sleeping. I doze off 10'
| after putting my head on the pillow.
|
| Now regarding stress... comparing myself to the people around
| me I'd say I have normal levels of it. But most of those
| people consume caffeine daily so it's hard to have an
| objective measure.
|
| I'd like to carry out the experiment of going 15 days without
| caffeine to see if stress decreases though but it would be
| very hard considering how ingrained the substance is in our
| lives, even the social aspect. Mate for example is a drink
| which we usually share here in Argentina. You could maybe
| call it a ritual and a way of social bonding. And I like how
| it tastes too, of course. Add that to all the times you meet
| with people "for a coffee and chat", for example.
| booleandilemma wrote:
| I drink around 3 or 4 cups (around 50 oz total) per day 7
| days a week and I sleep well enough. I try to avoid drinking
| it after 7pm though. I don't drink alcohol more than a couple
| times per month, if that much.
|
| If I skip a couple cups I _will_ get a headache, it 's very
| predictable.
| pirates wrote:
| this is me, I drink about a pot per day and sometimes drink
| caffeinated soda with food. only a small amount of half and
| half in the coffee. my sleep schedule is pretty routine,
| hardly ever stay up past 11:30 and wake up naturally with no
| alarm between 6:30 and 8 every morning.
|
| it is noticeable if i don't have a cup at least at some point
| during the day but there are plenty of days i don't have as
| much or hardly at all. but i just like the warmth and how it
| tastes, the caffeine is a non factor if i decide to have a
| cup or not.
|
| other things that are probably significant factors: low
| stress job at a small private company where i don't really
| have hard deadlines or deliverables and WFH as much as i
| want; wife and pets but no kids; low stress otherwise is
| areas of my life
| gambiting wrote:
| I don't know if it's a lot, but I drink 3 cups a day, with
| the last one usually around 6pm, and I don't have any trouble
| going to sleep around 10-11pm, usually fall asleep the second
| I put my head down(but then I never had any issues going to
| sleep).
| BossingAround wrote:
| Going to sleep is the easy part. The quality of your sleep
| is the thing :) The biggest problem is that you don't know
| how good/bad your sleep is, unless you make some changes to
| your lifestyle (e.g. starting or stopping with coffee).
| lc9er wrote:
| I've quit caffeine for 3-4 months. Aside from a rough few
| days from quitting cold-turkey, there was zero discernible
| difference in my day to day life. I enjoy black coffee, and
| the drawbacks, compared to say, soda or alcohol consumption
| are minimal, so I started drinking it again because I missed
| it. And most decaf is too gross to drink black so
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I don't drink a lot of the stuff, but I haven't quit.
|
| I used to drink about a litre of brewed coffee a day,
| starting at 7AM and going on until 5PM. Eventually that fell
| away, without any decision on my part, and I now drink one
| mug a day (1/2 imperial pint), after getting up.
|
| It doesn't seem to power me up or make me more alert; I think
| it actually makes me dozy, 2-3 hours after my morning joe.
| That is, I think I only notice the crash.
| swaginator wrote:
| The parent comment's experience does not reflect my
| relationship with coffee at all.
|
| I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, never medicated for it.
| Just regulated with diet and exercise, also probably self-
| medicated with caffeine and nicotine in college. Quit
| nicotine because of the very obvious health problems that
| come with it, I found it very easy to quit interestingly
| enough (thank God I quit before the Zyndemic).
|
| But I have never felt that coffee comes with any negative
| side effects for me other than anxiety. It doesn't affect my
| sleep unless I drink it past 5 PM, and I've never felt like
| it "wakes me up", it just lets me enter a hyperfocus state a
| lot more easily. Other people describe their relationship
| with coffee that they wake up and feel groggy, so they take
| coffee to have a baseline. For me it has never been about
| waking up, it's just something that helps with focus.
|
| I do get the jitters when drinking coffee especially since I
| eat my first meal very late in the day (12pm), so I switched
| to mate cocido, which is just mate in tea bags. The effect of
| even very strongly-brewed mate is far less pronounced than
| the effect of coffee, and I would even go so far as to say
| that whatever benefits I think I am getting from mate is
| probably just placebo.
|
| For reference during college I probably consumed 3-4 cups of
| coffee a day, then as I started working I would consume 5-6
| cups a day, black. Now I stop drinking coffee after I eat at
| noon, so I am down to 2-3 cups a day.
|
| Also I think that brewing methods matter. Hot-brewed coffee
| causes less jitters and more focus. Cold-brewed coffee tastes
| better but it is easy to overshoot what feels like a
| "therapeutic dose" and actually end up making it harder to
| focus, as well as more jitters. It might be that I usually
| have hot coffee black, and I have cold brew with a bit of
| milk and simple syrup. The sugar or coldness might also make
| me colder or do something with my blood sugar, not sure.
| deergomoo wrote:
| I have idly wondered if I just don't absorb caffeine very
| well. Coffee and energy drinks neither pep me up nor keep me
| awake; I continue to drink them solely because I enjoy them.
|
| The only consistent effect I've observed is that the first
| cup of the day jump starts things in the digestive department
| and brings on a trip to the bathroom with some haste, but
| I've suffered on and off with IBS-like symptoms over the
| years anyway--even before I started drinking coffee.
|
| In my early and mid-twenties I'd drink 5-6 cups of black
| coffee a day at work. I noticed no ill effects or really any
| effects at all--no crashes, no jitters, but also no increased
| alertness or focus.
|
| I now usually make myself one latte in the morning then an
| additional one or two black coffees through the day, but I
| can still drink a coffee right before bed with no noticeable
| effect on getting to sleep. I don't usually have any coffee
| at the weekend, because Saturday I take my machine apart for
| cleaning, and Sunday I'm typically out of the house at the
| times I would normally make one. If I go away on holiday
| somewhere I might go a full week without any coffee at all,
| again with no noticeable effect.
|
| Unfortunately I can't honestly say I have _good_ sleep,
| because even now (I 'm 31) my natural sleep schedule still
| wants to be something like 3am-11am, but society doesn't
| tolerate that. I really hoped that would be something I'd
| grow out of, but I haven't. So I'm pretty much tired all the
| time whether I drink coffee or I don't.
| Arrath wrote:
| I drink 4-5 cups a day, although I always stop by noon.
|
| No problems sleeping, and stress seems average for the job
| lol
| dyauspitr wrote:
| I drink a lot of black tea (about 60mg of caffeine per cup)
| throughout the day. Between 6-8 bags. My last cup is usually
| around 8pm. I'm soundly asleep by midnight and get a lot of
| deep and REM sleep (as validated by my Apple Watch). I do
| have to mention that I don't get very noticeable effects from
| caffeine, probably because according to a 23andme test,
| genetically caffeine doesn't affect me as intensely as most
| people. I mostly drink the black tea because I love the taste
| of fruit flavored, unsweetened black tea.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| I can drink a cup at 8 and fall asleep at 10. Sleep a full 8
| hours with dreams and wake up refreshed. I can binge it for
| weeks and stop and not feel anything. The coffee eschewers on
| the internet seem to posit that people like me can't exist
| but here I am, chiming in.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _Coffee fixes all of those._
|
| The thing is, it only does for a few days. At least for me.
| Then the coffee isn't helping at all -- it's just keeping you
| at the same baseline you previously were at with coffee.
|
| I used to drink coffee all the time at just a constant level.
| Then I just got tired of feeling "dependent" on something and
| weaned off over a couple of weeks. Which was fine when you
| don't do it cold turkey -- just a little less energy each day
| but easily manageable.
|
| Now I still drink coffee sometimes but I use it _as a temporary
| performance tool_. I 'll "start up again" on any particular day
| where I have a ton of meetings, where I didn't get enough
| sleep, where I have to do a lot of physical stuff, etc. Often
| this might be several days in a row, where I increase my coffee
| each day a little more relative to the previous day for the
| same effect.
|
| But then as soon as the demands stop, _I immediately taper off
| to zero again_ , usually taking 2-5 days to do so. Not really
| because I "don't want to be dependent", but because I want to
| _make sure I can get the full effect of coffee again the next
| time I need it_ , whether that's in a week or a month or three
| months.
|
| It's kind of weird that I'm always fully aware of _exactly_ how
| much I 'm "dosing" myself with coffee. I'm almost always either
| "tapering up", "tapering down", or just off of it completely.
|
| But it's very effective as a tool that way. Way more effective
| than when I just drank the same amount every day, which I
| discovered was no different from not drinking any at all (after
| tapering off).
| fhub wrote:
| I stop consuming caffeine 2 days before a holiday and
| preemptively take acetaminophen for a day to prevent any
| headaches. Then no caffeine on the holiday. I sleep more,
| relax more and just generally more chilled. I sometimes try
| to stay off it a bit after the holiday but that rarely lasts
| long.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Just a question -- are you entirely sure your acetaminophen
| pill doesn't also contain caffeine?
|
| Just since that's an extremely common combination, and I
| wasn't aware of acetaminophen on its own being able to
| counter the effects of a caffeine-withdrawal headache.
|
| I'm fascinated if this actually works.
| gruez wrote:
| From wikipedia:
|
| >Paracetamol relieves pain in both acute mild migraine
| and episodic tension headache.[21][22]
|
| Is there a reason to believe that it doesn't work for
| caffeine withdraw induced headaches?
| crazygringo wrote:
| Because a caffeine headache is neither a migraine nor a
| tension headache.
|
| And according to Wikipedia, paracetamol is mainly only
| useful for migraines. For tension headaches, you need the
| combination with caffeine and aspirin as well.
|
| Caffeine constricts blood vessels, which is why it's
| useful against headaches. And why withdrawal _causes_
| headaches, because now you have more blood flowing than
| you 've been used to.
| Log_out_ wrote:
| like running a ship aground on the rocks of a riff,coffein
| provides a few waves that get you further inland before the
| wreck comes to an halt
| arbuge wrote:
| > Maybe you just slept badly. Coffee fixes all of those.
|
| It doesn't fix sleeping badly for me anymore, at all. Perhaps
| it used to when I was younger _, but after turning around 45, I
| increasingly found that the only fix for a poor night 's sleep
| is a good night's sleep.
|
| _ or perhaps poor nights of sleep just didn't affect me much
| back then.
| slibhb wrote:
| > Caffeine is a very interesting drug that makes capitalism and
| just daily work bearable. It's interesting that this went all
| the way to 1800s for the US.
|
| Michael Pollan's thesis is absurdly exaggerated. I've been on
| and off coffee for the past few years and it's not necessary to
| "make daily work bearable". His link between caffeine and
| capitalism is just silly.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > Caffeine is a very interesting drug that makes capitalism and
| just daily work bearable.
|
| What is it about socialist work that makes it bearable?
| cryptonector wrote:
| Not OP but I think it must be the fear of the gulag.
| taeric wrote:
| The more I read anecdotes like this, the more im convinced
| there is not a homogenous response.
|
| For me, too much caffeine can be a thing. But I can stop coffee
| fairly consequence free. I stick with it as I do like the
| taste, but the world moving heavily to arabica coffee may get
| me to stop. Not at all a fan of it.
|
| To my point, I'm growing convinced we will someday find
| something like blood types for how it impacts you. Probably
| closer to the cilantro effect. But, same general ideas. Maybe
| even closer to catnip for cats?
| softwaredoug wrote:
| Conversely wouldn't the south have a near monopoly on nicotine
| (also a stimulant). I wonder what impact nicotine consumption -
| if any - had on the war.
| crawfishphase wrote:
| the outcome was that tobacco kills, and the surgeon general lee
| agrees
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| That was only a national conclusion after the advent of
| modern cigarettes.
|
| Cigars and pipes are more nuanced and far less harmful
| (especially because of the chemicals that aren't added, and
| the fact that you don't inhale)
| TeaBrain wrote:
| Both Ulysses S Grant and Grover Cleveland were heavy
| consumers of cigars. Both ended up with oral cancer.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Hot smoke in general causes cancer. Wood smoke (from
| fireplace, bonfire, etc.) is more carcinogenic per unit
| than pure (non-cigarette) tobacco smoke. There's a
| stronger link between regular wood fireplace use and
| cancer than there is between moderate pipe/cigar use and
| cancer.
|
| So _moderate_ (not heavy like Grant) cigar and pipe
| smoking ought to be regarded as within the realm of
| acceptable risk, especially given the enjoyment and
| mental benefits that result.
|
| But if we're going to discuss carcinogens, a lot of other
| things ought to be considered too. For example, why isn't
| alcohol, a known carcinogen, considered socially taboo
| compared to pipe smoking? Why are burning wood fireplaces
| considered "a nice touch" when the second-hand smoke from
| them is far more dangerous than that from an outdoor
| cigar user nearby?
| lukan wrote:
| "So moderate cigar and pipe smoking ought to be regarded
| as within the realm of acceptable risk"
|
| I believe that you have the right to come to this
| personal conclusion, but I do not think it is true, as a
| general statement.
|
| (also please be consciousness about where you smoke,
| other people might not share your enjoyment)
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| I'm curious - you believe wood fireplace use is an
| acceptable risk?
|
| > (also please be consciousness about where you smoke,
| other people might not share your enjoyment)
|
| Totally understood. I don't smoke much (less than once a
| week)... but when I do, it's almost always at home.
| lukan wrote:
| "I'm curious - you believe wood fireplace use is an
| acceptable risk?"
|
| Personally I believe that the benefits of a wood
| fireplace and the benefits of moderately smoking tobacco
| mixed with cannabis outweigh the downsides - for me. But
| I do not believe my personal choices are the right ones
| in general.
|
| (also woodfire .. there are quite different types)
| TeaBrain wrote:
| I agree with your line on personal conclusions. I think
| it is fair to come to a personal conclusion on acceptable
| risk, given the balance between risk and personal
| enjoyment, but I do not necessarily think that it is
| equally fair to come to this same conclusion for others.
| op00to wrote:
| No, there is no safe amount of cigar consumption.
|
| "Consistent data from all identified cohort and case-
| control studies indicate a significantly elevated risk
| for oral and pharyngeal cancer associated with cigar use,
| with evidence of a dose-dependent relation. Coupled with
| biologic mechanisms that likely are very similar to those
| involved in cigarette-related carcinogenesis, the
| available evidence strongly supports the conclusion that
| cigar use is a cause of cancer of the oral cavity and
| pharynx."
|
| This is one of many negative health effects from cigar
| consumption, including overall mortality, cardiovascular
| disease, lung, bladder, and head/neck cancer, chronic
| obstructive pulmonary disease, and periodontal disease
| risk. You can evaluate your own risk, but tobacco
| consumption seems like there is no "safe" amount of
| consumption according to broad literature reviews.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK586217/
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| "Medically safe" and "acceptable risk" are very different
| terms with different meanings.
|
| The medical establishment also says there's no safe
| amount of alcohol use, but that doesn't stop people from
| (rightly, I believe) enjoying a beer or glass of wine
| every now and then.
|
| The medical establishment's obsession with harm/risk
| reduction to the extreme is hazardous to human
| flourishing, in my opinion. We all have to come to terms
| with our eventual death to make the most of the life we
| have. I think the medical establishment is more motivated
| by insurance policy profits than by a desire to promote
| human flourishing.
|
| Joy and friendship and enjoyment and gratitude (etc.) are
| far better for our well-being than minimization of harm.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to never
| smoke cigars. I just think that it is fair to make the
| point that cigars are not necessarily entirely safe, even
| if the relative risk for lung cancer is less than for
| cigarettes. I didn't even necessarily even make this
| point, as with my previous comment, I simply made two
| separate statements, and you came to a possibly implied
| conclusion yourself.
|
| Regardless of the safety of cigars, I fail to see the
| logic behind how the idea that the relative risk of wood
| smoke compared to cigar smoke is supposed to convince
| anyone that cigar smoke should seem safe, considering
| that wood fires are no longer commonly used to heat homes
| in the developed world. Indoor smoke from heating and
| cooking has been well-established as a carcinogenic risk,
| but people not using wood to heat nor using smoke-point
| inducing temperatures when cooking, do not regularly
| expose themselves to these risks.
|
| Also, I never claimed that alcohol did not increase
| carcinogenic risk. I make no position on that. However,
| given the proposition that alcohol is a carcinogen, then
| as cigars use is not mutually exclusive to alcohol use,
| and as smoking cigars incurs some carcinogenic risk, then
| for users of cigars and alcohol, cigar use would be an
| additive risk along with the risk incurred by alcohol
| use.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| > I fail to see the logic behind how the idea that the
| relative risk of wood smoke compared to cigar smoke is
| supposed to convince anyone that cigar smoke should seem
| safe
|
| It's not so much a logical argument as an emotional one
| (though it is a true statement). So much of the public
| opposition to tobacco is emotional, not logical. So
| that's where at least some of the discussion needs to
| happen. Sometimes the best way to put something in the
| proper perspective is to make a comparison to a more
| familiar thing.
|
| I grew up believing tobacco use was one of the worst
| possible sins against God, and that lighting wood in the
| fireplace was a relaxing, enjoyable thing to do. So at
| least for me, the argument was helpful to put things into
| perspective.
| eggoa wrote:
| Ulysses Grant was pretty much a machine that consumed cigars
| and emitted union victories.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| Whiskey was also one of the inputs.
| seizethecheese wrote:
| He didn't drink much while in charge of troops engaged in
| battle, then he'd go on massive binges where he got silly
| drunk. So, sort of?
| kaycebasques wrote:
| They touch on the political affinities between the Union and
| Liberia but no so much the Confederacy and Brazil. I wonder if
| something similar was going on? Brazil still had slavery at that
| time. After the Confederates lost I recall learning that some
| slave-owning farmers moved down to Brazil to continue their
| slavery-driven farming practices. They only had 20 years though
| because slavery was banned in Brazil in the 1880s.
| jhbadger wrote:
| No doubt Brazil and the Confederacy would have liked to trade,
| as there was a strong tie between them as you guessed from the
| slavery issue. After the war, a number of Confederates (some
| illegally with their enslaved people) moved to Brazil, where
| their descendants are known as "Confederados" [1]. However,
| during the war the Union blockaded Southern ports and few trade
| items (including coffee) got through.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
| nunez wrote:
| Well, yeah, when you're hella sleep deprived, of course not
| having a stimulant readily available is a problem.
| vonnik wrote:
| I never thought of Caffeine as the Pervitin of the civil war...
| or pervitin as the caffeine of WWII
| agtech_andy wrote:
| It is a very compelling article and nice to read about the
| Liberian farmer entreprenuer, but the South also had tea,
| tobacco, and yaupon (black drink) which are all stimulants.
| jb1991 wrote:
| As the article states, it wasn't just stimulant qualities, it
| was also for morale. Imagine having no choice but to drink tea
| after decades of very rapid cultural absorption of coffee by
| every person.
| leereeves wrote:
| Wouldn't the lack of tobacco have similar effects on Union
| soldiers' morale?
| saalweachter wrote:
| I'm curious now.
|
| The Union had _some_ tobacco production -- 50 million
| pounds compared to 225 for the Confederacy. Was that enough
| for morale?
|
| Also, it looks like _cigarettes_ weren 't popular until
| after the Civil War. What would the morale hit be like for
| Civil War era pipe/cigar smokers running short, versus the
| meltdowns experienced by cigarette smokers?
| richardw wrote:
| For a short while but surely reduced access to smoking
| would improve performance in the medium term? Both are
| obviously possibilities and it would be good to know if
| anyone had an answer.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| You can smoke all day and be stimulated around the clock.
| Try drinking coffee all day every 30 minutes and you'd be
| bent over on the latreen after your tenth cup by noon.
| gullywhumper wrote:
| John Billings Hardtack and Coffee is a detailed account of camp
| life during the war. Here's the section discussing rations and
| (obviously) coffee:
|
| https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/72532/pg72532-images.ht...
| programmer3050 wrote:
| I love coffee myself
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