[HN Gopher] A buried ancient Egyptian port reveals connections b...
___________________________________________________________________
A buried ancient Egyptian port reveals connections between distant
civilizations
Author : jelliclesfarm
Score : 206 points
Date : 2024-06-27 19:49 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| blackhaz wrote:
| Incredible article.
| thom wrote:
| Raoul McLaughlin in The Roman Empire and the Indian Ocean
| estimates that customs taxes on trade through Red Sea ports could
| have accounted for fully _one third_ of all Roman income in the
| first century AD. It's always been fascinating to me what might
| have happened if Rome tried to play tall instead of wide.
| thom wrote:
| The book seems to be available at:
|
| https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Docu...
| teleforce wrote:
| >Its value, after payment of the Roman Empire's 25 percent
| import tax, was nearly seven million sesterces, which scholars
| have calculated was easily enough to buy a luxury estate in
| central Italy, or, if you prefer, to pay 40,000 stonecutters
| for a year. That translates into some vast fortunes.
|
| Aparrently this value from one ship, and it's reported to have
| 100 ships per monsoon season to Indian Ocean, it means per year
| since you need to have two monsoon for departing and returning.
| This report is for the first century AD, before the trade route
| reached its peak.
| detourdog wrote:
| What I love about this perspective is that one can imagine
| production plans based on catching the monsoon season. The
| Indian ocean is also no joke to sail through anytime much
| less monsoon season. This took sophisticated thought and
| cultural focus to pull off.
| Bluestein wrote:
| And _calendars_ , I am sure.-
| Bluestein wrote:
| Totally.-
|
| PS. That, and _antibiotics_ ...
| loufe wrote:
| Truly great article, and surprisingly lives up entirely to the
| very click-bait sounding title. The writer has a great mix of
| anecdotes, facts, and images.
|
| I feel like we don't often hear about times where these
| civilizations and religions mingled and worked together. The Isis
| temple would have been something to see.
| loufe wrote:
| Fun fact, if anyone else noticed the spelling of pottery
| "sherds" and thought it was a typo for "shards", apparently
| it's an alternatively spelling favoured in archeological
| circles.
| ganzuul wrote:
| Oh, that explains it in Minecraft.
| pests wrote:
| Yep, they got renamed a few months ago in-game and now many
| many more people know what sherds are.
| bumbledraven wrote:
| Agreed. I was impressed by the amount of interesting info and
| the well-written delivery.
|
| I found the bio of the author, Jo Marchant, on Amazon
| (https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B00B9DBJ3E/about):
|
| > [Marchant] has a PhD in genetics and medical microbiology
| from St Bartholomew's Hospital Medical College in London, and
| an MSc in Science Communication from Imperial College London.
| She previously worked as a senior editor at New Scientist and
| at Nature, and her articles have appeared in publications
| including The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian
| and Smithsonian magazine.
| ganzuul wrote:
| > He became friendly with the local tribespeople, who showed him
| ruins that archaeologists didn't know existed. "They'll take you
| to places--the last Westerner was some Roman guy," he jokes.
|
| Makes you really stop and think.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I guess one good thing about being an archeologist must be that
| history is added one year per year. You get to a ruin which has
| been messed up by Roman archaeologists, and their stuff is also
| artifacts.
|
| You get to a ruin messed up by Indiana Jones's in the 1940's or
| whatever, just note the location, your great^10 grandkids can
| come back and collect his hat as an artifact.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I've seen similar stories from South America.
|
| Some archeologist in Northern Argentina happened to talk to a
| local farmer who knew about several ancient sites.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Archaeologists make a point of taking to locals all around
| the world. In most cases, you simply won't excavate if the
| locals don't want to talk.
|
| I had a British farmer once locate a medieval path through
| his land. The documentary evidence already suggested it was
| in his field and he knew where his plow had found a lot of
| rocks. We dug a trench and found a beautiful cobblestone path
| inside.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| Growing up in Native American territory, there is much known
| by locals they don't share, and many sites are known but kept
| secret and sacred.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Hidden in temple basements across India are manuscripts,
| undeciphered, some of which speak to this ancient era. Preserve
| them before they rot! Archaeological and historical preservation
| in India needs attention and resources.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Is there reason to believe they're going to rot if they haven't
| after 2,000 years already?
| apetersson wrote:
| Humidity
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Is there reason to believe temples in India haven't
| experienced humidity in the last 2,000 years?
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| They used to be sealed. HR&CE is the govt arm that is
| controlling Hindu Temples. It is infiltrated by anti
| Hindu interests who have been selling temple artifacts
| and manuscripts by smuggling them out of the country for
| hundreds of thousands of dollars.. many have been taken
| out of the humidity controlled vaults built by the Kings.
|
| They have been drilling and building within temple stone
| walls that are hundreds of years old and installing
| ceilings fans and lights.
|
| Here are just a few of the recent HR&CE crimes :
| https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1806747391917511165
|
| And this:
| https://x.com/joshigargigoyal/status/1807105132087452000
| ceejayoz wrote:
| A more reputable source than a Twitter screenshot of an
| unknown, uncited news source would be worthwhile here.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| The tweets literally quotes the problematic issues with
| the HRCE Act.
|
| Which part do you find 'not reputable' source of facts?
|
| [..] The Tamil Nadu HR&CE Act
|
| The Tamil Nadu Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments
| (HR&CE) Act has been a point of contention due to various
| issues highlighted by critics. Lets see some significant
| problems associated with the Act and its implementation,
| with actual examples from newspapers in Tamil Nadu.
|
| 1. Control Over Temples Government Control: The Act
| allows the government to take control of any Hindu temple
| under the pretext of 'a reason to believe' there has been
| an irregularity, even if no actual wrongdoing is proven
| (Page 14, Clause 2 & 4). Example: In 2021, the Tamil Nadu
| government took control of the Nataraja Temple in
| Chidambaram citing irregularities. This action faced
| backlash from the Dikshithars, the traditional custodians
| of the temple, who claimed it was an unjustified takeover
| .
|
| Non-Hindus Managing Temples: Non-Hindus, including the
| Chief Minister and state HR&CE officials, can manage
| temples despite not practicing Hinduism (Page 20, Sec
| 6-7a; Page 21, Sec 6-23). Example: In 2017, controversy
| arose when it was revealed that non-Hindu officials were
| involved in the management of several temples in Tamil
| Nadu, leading to protests by Hindu groups demanding that
| only practicing Hindus should hold such positions .
|
| 2. Fund Management and Financial Control Payments to
| HR&CE Officials: The Act mandates that salaries and
| pensions of HR&CE officials be the first expenditure from
| temple funds, questioning the secularism of such a
| provision (Page 23, Sec 12). Example: In 2021, it was
| reported that significant funds from the Madurai
| Meenakshi Temple were being used to pay HR&CE officials'
| salaries, diverting resources away from temple
| maintenance and services .
|
| Asset Mismanagement: There are numerous issues with how
| temple assets are managed, including missing asset
| registers, undervaluation of leases, and questionable
| audit practices (Page 18, Sec 17; Page 35, Sec 29; Page
| 41, Sec 34-A). Example: The Hindu reported in 2020 about
| the undervaluation of temple properties leased at rates
| far below market value, particularly concerning lands
| belonging to the Tiruchendur Murugan Temple .
|
| 3. Vagueness and Ambiguity Undefined Terms: Key terms
| like 'professing Hindu religion' and 'acting in public
| interest' are not clearly defined, leading to potential
| misuse (Vagueness of Terms section). Example: An article
| in The Times of India highlighted the ambiguity of the
| term 'public interest' being used to justify the removal
| of trustees from the Kapaleeswarar Temple in Chennai
| without clear evidence of wrongdoing .
|
| 4. Temple Services and Personnel Stifling Temple
| Services: The Commissioner has the power to limit
| spending on temple services such as salaries for archakas
| (priests) and annadanam (free food distribution), citing
| financial reasons (Page 66, Sec 61). Example: In 2022,
| the HR&CE department's decision to cut down on annadanam
| services at the Palani Murugan Temple due to 'financial
| constraints' was heavily criticized by devotees, leading
| to protests .
|
| Appointment and Dismissal of Archakas: The Act allows the
| appointment of archakas by the HR&CE and their dismissal
| by trustees for vague reasons such as 'disobedience of
| orders' (Page 61, Sec 55; Page 62, Sec 56). Example: The
| dismissal of an archaka from the Meenakshi Amman Temple
| in Madurai in 2018, allegedly for disobedience, sparked a
| debate on the arbitrary use of this provision .
|
| 5. Trustees and Governance Trustee Appointments: The
| criteria for becoming a trustee are minimal, leading to
| potential mismanagement. Trustees must merely declare
| faith in Hinduism without any mechanism to verify their
| adherence (Page 32, Sec 25-A; Page 33, Sec 26-i-1A).
| Example: In 2020, it was reported that several trustees
| appointed to the Srirangam Ranganathaswamy Temple had
| minimal experience in temple administration, leading to
| administrative inefficiencies .
|
| Board of Trustees: The government can appoint a
| significant portion of the board of trustees, potentially
| undermining the autonomy of the temple administration
| (Page 52, Sec 47). Example: The appointment of
| politically affiliated individuals to the board of
| trustees of the Srirangam Temple in 2021 raised concerns
| about political interference in temple affairs .
|
| 6. Asset Management Issues Asset Registers: There are
| inconsistencies in the maintenance and publication of
| asset registers, leading to mismanagement and loss of
| temple properties (Page 35, Sec 29-D & E). Example: The
| Deccan Chronicle reported in 2019 that several valuable
| assets of the Madurai Meenakshi Temple were not properly
| recorded, resulting in losses and mismanagement .
|
| Leasing Issues: The Act allows for the leasing of temple
| properties at undervalued rates and provides insufficient
| mechanisms for lease recovery (Page 42, Sec 34-B; Page
| 39, Sec 34). Example: In 2018, a major controversy
| erupted when it was discovered that prime land belonging
| to the Kumbakonam Temples as well as Agastheeswara
| Prasanna Venkatesa Perumal temple at Nungambakkam was
| leased at extremely low rates to private parties, leading
| to significant revenue losses .
|
| Conclusion The TN HR&CE Act, while intended to regulate
| and manage Hindu temples and charitable institutions, has
| several provisions that lead to government overreach,
| mismanagement, and potential misuse of temple funds and
| assets. These issues highlight the need for a thorough
| review and amendment of the Act to ensure transparency,
| accountability, and respect for religious autonomy. The
| call to #FreeTNTemples reflects a growing demand for
| reforms to protect the interests of Hindu temples and
| their devotees.[..]
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > Which part do you find 'not reputable' source of facts?
|
| The complete lack of any supporting links, and the
| general vagueness of the claims; "potential misuse",
| "potential mismanagement", "sparked a debate" are not
| particularly strong claims.
|
| Where's the reputable source for "infiltrated by anti
| Hindu interests" or "drilling and building within temple
| stone walls that are hundreds of years old and installing
| ceilings fans and lights"? Why is Modi's Hindu
| nationalist BJP permitting such a thing?
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| These are legal cases and writs filed in courts.
|
| https://indiankanoon.org/search/?formInput=hr%20and%20ce+
| doc...
|
| Or
|
| https://hindupost.in/dharma-religion/tn-heritage-
| destroyed-g...
|
| Or
|
| https://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/news-brief/misuse-of-
| templ...
|
| Or
|
| https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD1nfo-60R_Kn2R58RLI
| aNB...
|
| What would satisfy you as a 'reputable source'. I will
| try and find it for you. Obviously this is very important
| for you.
|
| Modi's BJP govt is central govt. This is happening in
| Tamil Nadu.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/1200-anc
| ien...
|
| 1,200 Ancient Idols Stolen From Tamil Nadu Temples In 25
| Years: Audit
|
| All of these Hindu Temples are managed by the HRCE and
| they are responsible for its security and yet untold
| artifacts have been smuggled and despite repeated legal
| writs and petitions and legal cases against them, nothing
| is moving ahead.
|
| Hindu Temples can be managed by non Hindus. Meanwhile,
| every other religion in India..Xianity, Islam, Sikhism..
| their places are worship are run independently and the
| state has no control over it or its assets or resources.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| ~50 thefts a year across 36,595 temples seems... small.
|
| Churches, mosques, synagogues, shrines etc. are hardly
| immune to thefts.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| http://templeworshippers.in/ : for the state of
| TamilNadu.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| How manuscripts used to be preserved :
|
| https://drperumal.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/indigenous-
| method...
|
| https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0340035222110
| 3...
|
| I have been to a few museums and libraries where the
| palmyra manuscripts and texts are still preserved. They
| should remain with people who value them instead of handing
| them over to the govt.
|
| In our home library, we lost so many books where the pages
| were so brittle that they would break like biscuits. But
| the religious palm leaf scripts that have been in the
| family for generations were well preserved as they were
| wrapped in cloth. We also had some inscriptions on copper
| plates or some other kind of alloy metal. They were at the
| altar in the prayer room and kept submerged in water
| always. I don't know what language it was but it was none
| of the known modern languages.
|
| Even today., in the deep south, there are palm leaf
| astrologers whose lineage have owned Nadi astrology palm
| leaf manuscripts that is supposed to relate everything
| about you life and past lives including when you will visit
| the astrologer. There are some authentic lineages.
|
| The text is written in Vatteluttu and script knowledge is
| passed down lineages only
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatteluttu
|
| Nadi astrology
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_astrology
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Yes.
| anukin wrote:
| Vast majority of those manuscripts were either burned or
| destroyed during the Islamic invasion during Middle Ages.
|
| Also can you at least point out to some temples which house
| these and archeological survey of India have not already done
| steps to preserve those temples?
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| We get told about Islam preserving greek thought/history. Did
| Islam not do the same for Indian thought/history?
| christkv wrote:
| The main preservation of greek texts was the byzantine
| empire not the Arab world. If you take a second to think
| about it was the Greek Roman Empire. Until it fell it was
| the heart of the knowledge of Rome and Greece.
| bee_rider wrote:
| What's the current state in the field? I suppose there must be
| some preservation attempts already going on, even if they need
| more resources.
|
| I'm surprised at the response you got, which seems like...
| skepticism bordering on hostility. Is there a reason this
| should be a hot button issue? (Please excuse my ignorance, if
| it is at all redemptive, it isn't India-specific I just don't
| know anything about archeology in general, haha).
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| Politics. A lot of items of archeological significance was
| looted by the British and many were smuggled out.
|
| During Mughal invasions, the priests buried the idols and
| inscriptions and many were drowned for safe keeping. As many
| rural areas are being developed, these are all coming out.
|
| Current state is politics ( at least in the southern states)
| is such that all Hindu temples are under the control of the
| state. The corrupt ruling parties have claimed all the
| revenues and have appropriated land that used to belong to
| temples and were rented out for services. Temples used to run
| schools and fed the needy population as the land donated by
| the rulers and they were essentially outsourcing the work to
| the temples. This was interrupted during the 250 years of
| colonial rule when the British eliminated kingdoms.
|
| Further complicating the issue are the other religionists of
| Islam and Christianity who have strong conversion agendas and
| are being funded by foreign interests.
|
| For example. The issue of the WAQF board of Islam. Recently
| this came up in the news : [..]The Tamil Nadu Waqf Board has
| claimed ownership of the 1500-year-old Manendiyavalli
| Chandrashekhara Swami temple land. The temple has 369 acres
| of property in and around Tiruchenthurai village in the
| Tiruchi District of Tamil Nadu.[..]
|
| How is it possible that a 1500 year old temple can be owned
| by a religious board that is younger than the temple?
|
| And I found this article:
| https://organiser.org/2023/01/30/106679/bharat/106679/.. it
| was specific to that region but spoke about the WAQF Board.
|
| And I had to learn what the WAQF board was and learn more
| from here:https://www.opindia.com/2022/09/waqf-boards-india-
| properties...
|
| [..]The very literal meaning of Waqf is detention or
| confinement and prohibition. As per Islam, it is the property
| that is now available only for religious or charitable
| purposes, and any other use or sale of the property is
| prohibited. As per Sharia law, once Waqf is established, and
| the property is dedicated to Waqf, it remains as Waqf
| property forever.
|
| Waqf means that the ownership of the property is now taken
| away from the person making Waqf and transferred and detained
| by Allah. As per Sharia, this property is now permanently
| dedicated to Allah, making Waqf irrevocable in nature.
|
| 'Waqif' is a person who creates a waqf for the beneficiary.
| As Waqf properties are bestowed upon Allah, in the absence of
| a physically tangible entity, a 'mutawalli' is appointed by
| the waqif, or by a competent authority, to manage or
| administer a Waqf.
|
| The history of Waqf and Waqf Boards in India
|
| In India, the history of Waqf can be traced back to the early
| days of the Delhi Sultanate when Sultan Muizuddin Sam Ghaor
| dedicated two villages in favour of the Jama Masjid of Multan
| and handed its administration to Shaikhul Islam. As the Delhi
| Sultanate and later Islamic dynasties flourished in India,
| the number of Waqf properties kept increasing in India.[..]
|
| I am still diving into that rabbithole. And I don't think
| it's relevant to post here.
|
| Back to the topic.. I would prefer if Hindu artifacts and
| texts and ancient Indian history remains hidden. It is not a
| safe space out there because even though India is allegedly a
| Hindu majority country, there are strong interests to wish to
| erase the Hindu identity of India and weaken the only
| polytheistic faith that managed to survive millennia.
|
| In the article, there were artifacts that depicted Hindu
| Gods(Krishna, Balaram and Ekanamsa)but the word Hindu did not
| occur even once. Sadly, it only confirmed my suspicion that
| western academia wants to erase Hindu history.
| lukan wrote:
| "I would prefer if Hindu artifacts and texts and ancient
| Indian history remains hidden. It is not a safe space out
| there because even though India is allegedly a Hindu
| majority country, there are strong interests to wish to
| erase the Hindu identity of India"
|
| So to preserve "the Hindu identity of India" important
| parts of that story should remain hidden, rather than
| scanned and distributed more? (we were talking about
| documents here)
|
| That does not make much sense to me. Also when you say "the
| Hindu identity of India" it sounds a bit absolutistic to
| me. Hinduism is no doubt a important part of india, but
| maybe not the only one?
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| The temples are places of worship for Hindu deities. If
| that's not Hindu identity, what is?
|
| India is Hindu. Hinduism was a term coined later for
| Sanatana Dharma that was based on Vedism, the study and
| worship of Vedas.
|
| It included all forms of worship under one umbrella. It
| worked out well as a diverse society with one identity
| until monotheistic Abrahamic faiths and their adherents
| came as invaders and colonizers.
|
| For most of the rest of the world, a few hundred years
| ago is ancient history. For India, it goes back thousands
| of years. And that is the identity of India. Everything
| else is imported and new.
| lukan wrote:
| So Buddhism is included in Hinduism in your perspective?
|
| Because I know many disagree to that. I also know it is
| not one of the "monotheistic Abrahamic faiths".
|
| And the muslims might have come as invaders, but the
| islamic faith is still present in india since over 1200
| years. You might not like it, but most think that
| qualifies as being part of that land by now.
|
| Same im europe. Christian faith came mostly by the sword.
| It is still part of european culture now.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| No. Buddhism is not Hinduism. Buddhists are not Hindus.
|
| Perhaps what you say is true. But Hinduism came from
| India and most of the world's Hindus live in India.
|
| One would expect India will declare Hinduism as their
| official religion as they should.
|
| When a nation's religious majority is unable to defend
| its rights, then it's an invasion. It can be by the sword
| or by conversion. It's still a displacement and
| replacement strategy. Indian Hindus are waking up to it.
| About time.
|
| There is no country in the world where Hinduism is the
| official religion. Even India where 79% of the population
| are Hindus.
|
| Nepal used to be the only Hindu nation in the world but
| that changed recently during the Maoist insurgency.
|
| Who knows. We will have to wait and see.
| lukan wrote:
| "One would expect India will declare Hinduism as their
| official religion as they should."
|
| Well, apparently Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Pagans
| and Atheists would strongly disagree. Secularism was
| invented for a reason.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| It's not working in India. It's not working there. We'll
| see what happens.
|
| Why shouldn't one billion Hindus have a Hindu nation?
| There is no country in the world that has Hinduism as
| official religion.
|
| Religious conversions and by extension, secularism is a
| form of colonization.
| lukan wrote:
| It is working in europe.
|
| Yes, there are people who want many european states to
| become officially christian again. But they are a
| minority and hopefully stay that.
|
| I am fine with small states choosing a official religion.
| People can then more easily choose to also get away.
|
| But not a big continent, or a country as big as whole
| india. Because that creates tension as many do not want
| their life dominated by a religion they do not believe
| in.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| What do you mean 'it's working in Europe?
|
| The dominant and official state religion in Europe is
| mostly Christianity.
|
| [..]Europe
|
| Christianity (Eastern Orthodox)
|
| 1. Belarus 2. Bulgaria 3. Cyprus 4. Georgia 5. Greece 6.
| Moldova 7. Montenegro 8. North Macedonia 9. Russia 10.
| Serbia
|
| Christianity (Roman Catholicism)
|
| 1. Andorra 2. Austria 3. Belgium 4. Bosnia and
| Herzegovina (also Islam) 5. Croatia 6. Czech Republic 7.
| France 8. Hungary 9. Italy 10. Latvia 11. Lithuania 12.
| Luxembourg 13. Malta 14. Monaco 15. Poland 16. Portugal
| 17. Slovakia 18. Slovenia 19. Spain 20. Switzerland
|
| Christianity (Protestantism)
|
| 1. Denmark 2. Estonia 3. Finland 4. Germany 5. Iceland 6.
| Netherlands 7. Norway 8. Sweden 9. United Kingdom
| (Anglican)
|
| Mixed/Other
|
| 1. Albania (Islam and Christianity) 2. Kosovo (Islam and
| Christianity) [..]
| jeromegv wrote:
| For anyone reading this thread, this person is lying and
| trying to push a narrative, it's quite clear what's going
| on here.
|
| You're confusing, likely intentionally, between dominant
| religion and official religion, which is what you are
| advocating for. There's no official religion in France
| for example and many of the countries you listed.
|
| This person tries to push the narrative that only one
| religion matter in India and the rest don't, while
| clearly we are talking of hundreds of millions of people
| that are not Hindu.
| wslh wrote:
| Clearly your use of Abrahamic faiths is not fair in this
| context when the root of Abrahamic faith is Judaism and
| it is also an old religion as Hinduism.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| You realize that there's more than one waqf board for
| different sects right?
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| No. Please enlighten what the WAQF board does and what it
| means..
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| The preservation of ancient manuscripts in India is not just a
| cultural imperative but also a scholarly necessity.
| oriettaxx wrote:
| military air force base just there
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ras_Banas
| empath75 wrote:
| While a lot of these finds are new and wonderful, especially that
| sanskrit inscription, the connections between the civilizations
| weren't exactly hidden. There are references to Hindus and
| Buddhists sprinkled throughout Greek histories, there were Greco-
| Buddhist kingdoms in what's now Afghanistan, Ashoka sent
| missionaries with his Buddhist edicts far west and had them
| translated into Greek and Aramaic.
|
| I think the development of Christianity and later Greek
| philosophy has _clear_ signs of influence from Buddhism, and I'm
| sure the influence was bidirectional. These people talked to each
| other and they argued with each other and learned from each
| other. Egypt in particular was a wildly religiously inventive
| melting pot, and the Hermetic and Gnostic texts _especially_ have
| signs of influence from eastern religion, and if there were
| active Buddhist communities in Berineke that were presumably
| proselytizing, that makes a lot of sense.
|
| I think a lot of people sort of make the assumption that because
| there are core differences between the religions that there is no
| influence, but sometimes doctrines only become settled through
| opposition. It's not always "Yes, and", sometimes it's "yes,
| but", and the popularity of certain ideas (for example the idea
| of salvation through personal enlightment) could force various
| sects to adapt and find similarities, while also differentiating
| themselves. Christianity is obviously not buddhism or an offshoot
| of Buddhism, but that doesn't mean that aspects of it weren't a
| reaction to encounters with Buddhist ideas.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| It's humbling to think of how the pathways of accepted history
| get blinded by the suppression, or more likely disregard for
| information that doesn't align with the framework of religious
| or cultural belief. Makes you wonder about what things that are
| crucial and important to us now will be in the dustbin 500
| years from now!
|
| I was hooked to "Age of Empires" as a kid. I remember asking a
| teachers and others if Alexander the Great invaded India, and
| the Romans were building walls in Scotland, why didn't they
| bother visiting anyone in India, Ethiopia, etc.
|
| The answers were always unsatisfactory to me... I'm glad people
| are pursuing this knowledge.
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| "The shape of the ancient thought" by Thomas McEvilley goes
| deeper into this:
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/925680
| pegasus wrote:
| Very true. For example, Buddha literally made it into Christian
| tradition, as Saint Josaphat of India:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat
| christkv wrote:
| There was even an Indian Greek kingdom
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom
| Bluestein wrote:
| > Ashoka sent missionaries with his Buddhist edicts far west
| and had them translated into Greek and Aramaic
|
| Smart guy.-
| vardhanw wrote:
| Seems like the fact of a large India-Egypt trade link via the red
| sea was known atleast a year back, and specifically this evidence
| from Berenike. This [0] link describes the author William
| Dalrymple talking about it and also about his book [1] which is
| already out, which presumably covers this in more detail. A lot
| of Indian scholars are (re)discovering Indic history and we can
| expect much more of ancient India specific history to come out,
| which was unknown or has been forgotten over the ages, given the
| ancient nature of the Indian civilization.
|
| [0] https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/economy/story/indias-
| anc... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Road-Ancient-India-
| Transformed...
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > A lot of Indian scholars are (re)discovering Indic history
| and we can expect much more of ancient India specific history
| to come out, which was unknown or has been forgotten over the
| ages, given the ancient nature of the Indian civilization.
|
| This, there are also very real links connecting famous
| civilizations of the Ancient Near East such as the Sumerians
| with the Dravidians of South India.
| lacy_tinpot wrote:
| "Dravidian of South India"
|
| Isn't this the same thing as saying "Chai-Tea"? As
| "Dravidian" already means "Southern". Dravida = South in
| Sanskrit.
| daseiner1 wrote:
| Yes, but it's context for folks unfamiliar with Dravidians.
| And yes, said folks do have devices to quickly look up
| these things as well :)
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| Isn't Dravidian a language family (like Sino-Tibetan/Uralic)
| and not an ethnicity?
|
| AFAIK no South Indian empire like Rasthrakuta or Satavahan
| called themselves Dravidian.
| trueismywork wrote:
| ASI vs ANI
| reidacdc wrote:
| Slightly OT, but if you are interested in this sort of thing,
| William Dalrymple and Anita Anand co-host the Empire podcast,
| which has many episodes and guests and recommended reading
| covering lots of ancient history.
|
| I'm not affiliated with it, I'm just a fan.
|
| https://www.goalhangerpodcasts.com/empire
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| Another month, another article falsely claiming that these
| trade routes haven't been known for years. It's also not
| limited to India-Egypt. The Greeks traded with Ancient
| Ethiopia. As did the Romans, who also traded with India and
| even as far as China. That sea route through the Arabian Gulf
| has been well established for millennia.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| () replaces "between"
|
| Which shorthand is this?
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| The title changed and this comment makes no sense. The title
| was "...reveals connections () distant civilizations" where the
| word 'between' was replaced with '()'
| cut3 wrote:
| Photos of the buddha that was discussed in the article and not
| shown: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berenike_Buddha
| complaintdept wrote:
| Somewhat relevant, Greco-Roman Buddhas from the same period:
|
| htps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
| gradientsrneat wrote:
| The picture is in the article, but nice to know there's a
| Wikipedia page.
| Ozzie_osman wrote:
| Not directly related, but that whole area of the Red Sea in
| southern Egypt is gorgeous (Berenike aka Berenice, Marsa Allam,
| etc). Far away from the more crowded spots of Egypt. Scuba diving
| that in my opinion rivals or exceeds the Great Barrier Reef.
| Great for kitesurfing as well.
| hawk_ wrote:
| How safe is it given the politics of the place?
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| Wow! The extent and sophistication of ancient trade routes
| more_corn wrote:
| Oh, port. Not portal. Never mind.
| checker659 wrote:
| Travelling with the Ancients by Dr. Shailendra Bhandare :
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grtom6O4jv8
| contingencies wrote:
| History is fascinating. It's fairly common knowledge in academia
| there are sites in East Africa derived from Buddhist use with
| Indic names. The article touches on south-west subcontinental
| trading ports, mentioning Pattanam just north of modern Kochi in
| Kerala. I traveled there in 2011 (shortly after accidentally
| experiencing the start of the _Arab Spring_ revolution in
| Tunisia!) when we were starting _Kraken_ , and with a background
| in ancient Chinese history and many years in China, I was
| impressed to see many active cantilevered fishing structures
| erected in bamboo[0]: just the same as you can see today in some
| parts of China. There's also a theory that the monk who
| introduced Kung Fu in China was actually teaching an established
| martial art from this same region of Kerala (of course this is
| not entertained in China for political reasons, it makes a lot of
| sense). Most of Southeast Asia owes heavy cultural debts to
| southern Indian seafaring, as typified by the Borobodur bas-
| relief boat carving showing outriggers associated with southern
| India ("katthu-maram" = "two sticks tied together" = catamaran =
| technology which powered Austronesian seafaring)[1].
| Incidentally, the very name China itself was asserted by a
| prominent historian to be possibly derived from an Indic name for
| a tribal confederation in Yunnan/Guizhou/Guangxi, Yelang.[2]
|
| [0]
| https://www.outlooktraveller.com/experiences/heritage/chines...
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur_ship [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinas
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