[HN Gopher] Supershoes are reshaping distance running
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Supershoes are reshaping distance running
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 147 points
Date : 2024-06-25 19:26 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.technologyreview.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.technologyreview.com)
| waderyan wrote:
| Golf is facing a similar crisis with distance gains caused by
| driver technology. Many of the world's famous golf courses can't
| hold the best players.
|
| Two of golf's governing body, the USGA (the United States Golf
| Association) and the R&A (the Royal and Ancient) have recommended
| a rollback of the golf ball, which has caused significant debate
| in golf circles.
| cainxinth wrote:
| Swimming dealt with it in 2009 after complaints that suits like
| the LZR Racer provided too much buoyancy and records were being
| broken at an unusual rate:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZR_Racer#FINA_rule_changes
| thih9 wrote:
| What happens with the world records that were scored before
| the rule change?
| bobbiechen wrote:
| They stand. But if you look at the current records (based
| on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_s
| wimm... ), most of them were set after the 2009 ban. In
| other words, the full-body suit advantage was not
| overwhelming.
| fire_lake wrote:
| Bigger golf courses, just what we need...
| toss1 wrote:
| Tennis also changed irrevocably when they changed from wooden
| to composite rackets.
| randomcarbloke wrote:
| I'm contemplating a switch from the minimalist shoes I adopted
| not long after Born to Run was released.
|
| Although I don't run as regularly or consistently as I used to, I
| suspect there are gains to be had from wearing a squishy carbon-
| plate 8-10mm drop shoe.
|
| I'm on a stint of running at the moment, and wonder whether it's
| better to persist with my minimalist shoes until I (once again)
| reach a plateauing of gains, or do I switch now and benefit
| immediately?
| dgimla20 wrote:
| As a fellow runner, it really depends on where you are
| currently at to answer questions like this.
|
| I think of myself as a pretty good runner, but doubt these
| shoes would benefit me in a meaningful way at this point.
| randomcarbloke wrote:
| I watched a video recently where a reasonably good runner
| switched from minimalist to vaporflys and it was
| transformative, I think you're underestimating just how
| significant the advances in performance shoes have been (as
| the article points out).
| mikestew wrote:
| _...doubt these shoes would benefit me in a meaningful way at
| this point._
|
| You would probably be surprised. Can you race at 8:00/mile?
| Do you _not_ heel strike like you 're pounding fence posts?
| Then they'll probably work for you. I've run 50 mile races
| averaging around 9:00/mile in Vaporflys, and I still
| benefited greatly, if only because my legs weren't as trashed
| as they might have been in other shoes.
| jurassicfoxy wrote:
| I can assure you that many super shoes will make you
| noticeably faster. Try them on in the store, you'll know
| right away. That being said, some of them (Nike's especially)
| are really hard to run in. Almost zero heel support, and so
| you _do_ have to be quite fast to make some of them work.
|
| I have run in Endorphin Pro 3's and they are super super
| stable. I've work them for very slow ultras as well as fast
| workouts: excellent shoes all around.
| chis wrote:
| You should switch immediately. The underrated piece is how much
| friendlier squishy shoes are on your joints and muscles. I have
| pretty good form and modern shoes still decrease my recovery
| time by like 1/3 compared to minimal ones.
| randomcarbloke wrote:
| noted, thank you, I'll heed your advice.
| mikestew wrote:
| The next day, after the first marathon I'd run in Vaporflys,
| I said to my wife, "I don't think I ran hard enough." Oh, I
| ran hard enough, but super shoes really save the legs, such
| that you won't feel as beat up the next day.
|
| And they _do_ make me faster as an added benefit. :-)
| mikestew wrote:
| Switch now, use them for your hard workouts (intervals, tempo,
| and the like), and racing. Don't use them for your plodding
| recovery runs, as they won't really work and you're wasting
| expensive shoes. Yes, you'll be faster, but as sibling says the
| real benefit is your legs don't get as trashed on hard runs.
|
| They will last longer than advertised. yeah, I probably
| wouldn't race marathons in them much past 200 miles or so, but
| I've got some Vaporflys that I only use for workouts now, and
| they are approaching 400 mile, IIRC. I've done back-to-back
| comparisons with the worn pair and a practically new pair, and
| yes, they lose a fair bit of bounce after 200 miles. But they
| can still be used for workouts, and they still preserve the
| legs.
| randomcarbloke wrote:
| great advice to make them last with the added benefit of
| forcing good technique by using my flat shoes for
| recovery/steady-state.
| fire_lake wrote:
| If your legs don't get "trashed" is it because you are
| training them less?
| mikestew wrote:
| That's a solid question, but AFAIK it's the cushion and
| energy return from that pricey foam that is the leg-saver.
| Training benefit remains the same for practical purposes.
| fire_lake wrote:
| My read on it is that it reduces the amount of engagement
| required by various muscles and particularly feet. It
| makes running a lower impact exercise, closer to cycling.
| This is great for training VO2 max but we mustn't forget
| that one of great things about running is that it trains
| all sorts of small support muscles, particularly in feet
| and lower legs.
| sn9 wrote:
| There are so many other reliably low-hanging fruit for most
| runners that jumping to supershoes is unlikely to make nearly
| as much of a difference.
|
| Like you'll see much larger gains adding 10+ miles per week to
| your training volume.
|
| The supershoes mainly benefit those who've maxed out their
| training volume and ability to recover, and are training for
| professional competition instead of health or recreation.
|
| And strength training is still severely underutilized by most
| endurance-focused athletes. It also improves running economy
| while having a host of other benefits.
| randomcarbloke wrote:
| this is categorically untrue, it would've been true
| ten/fifteen years ago perhaps, supershoes absolutely make a
| difference to both performance and recovery, moreso if you're
| used to the relatively demanding minimalist shoes.
|
| >Like you'll see much larger gains adding 10+ miles per week
| to your training volume.
|
| me personally? I won't as I row 35/40km a week.
| sn9 wrote:
| I'm not familiar enough with rowing volume to comment on
| that. And I'm not sure how running shoe selection impacts
| rowing . . . .
|
| The overwhelming majority of runners are running less than
| 30 miles per week. Competitive amateurs might be doing
| 40-60. Most would see better than 4% improvements adding
| 10+ miles to their training volume.
| rojeee wrote:
| This is definitely true. Distance/time running is the
| most effective lever you can pull to increase performance
| assuming your form isn't completely messed up.
|
| I used to run competitively in my teens. Now nearly 40
| and getting back into it. Recently upped distance to 50
| miles a week (mostly slow) from 20 and I'm suddenly doing
| sub 17min 5ks. Couldn't get below 19 mins before upping
| mileage.
| jasonpeacock wrote:
| It's all about running technique, not the shoes. If you switch
| to minimalist shoes, but continue with the same (wrong)
| technique then you'll have problems.
|
| Big, padded shoes are for a specific (wrong) technique.
| "Barefoot" running technique doesn't need fancy shoes.
| zardo wrote:
| Big padded shoes are making the fastest long distance runners
| in the world faster.
| mikestew wrote:
| _It 's all about running technique, not the shoes._
|
| Nike, et al., spent millions of dollars demonstrating that
| this statement is untrue.
|
| _Big, padded shoes are for a specific (wrong) technique._
|
| Demonstrably untrue, as TFA discusses at length. TFA isn't
| talking about the Hokas that your grandmother wears to the
| grocery, these are race shoes. You going to go tell Kipchoge
| that his "technique" is all wrong, and he needs to switch to
| Vibram Five Fingers?
| jurassicfoxy wrote:
| Your minimalist shoes aren't going to be faster in a race, but
| they are still good for you. I think the way to go is to run in
| many pairs of shoes. Super shoes for some fast workouts and
| races, normal shoes for long runs and tempo work, minimalist
| shoes good to keep your feet strong, Achilles long, etc. Some
| of the fastest runners I know run in zero drop shoes, but they
| also run in carbon shoes. There's no value in limiting
| yourself.
| thenoblesunfish wrote:
| Another way that, a bit sadly, running is becoming more like
| triathlon or F1. In those, there are a lot of rules about what
| technology you can use. Annoying, but it will have to happen with
| running - consider that these "supershoes" in part work like
| prosthetic running blades do, and those are more efficient than
| human feet (as they are springs).
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| If we are going to limit tech I think they should reduce the
| improved precision of chronometers. Lots of records fall simply
| because of this. It isn't fair that previous record holders
| lose their record simply due to better measuring technology.
| bluecalm wrote:
| I see it the opposite way. Triathlon (and cycling time
| trialing) becomes very expensive if you want to be competitive
| because there is too little regulation. You can buy a lot of
| performance on a time trial or triathlon bike and I don't think
| it's good for those sports long term.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| What you should truly remember in Olympic sports like this is
| that really only the top 1% should care about this and even
| then those people probably not.
|
| The engine matters so much more and running. Yeah, 1 to 2% of
| advantage at the high end. It makes a huge difference for a
| metals.
|
| But if you're in any sort of participatory level don't bother
| BizarroLand wrote:
| If you run for fun, and you have the cash, go ahead and buy
| the shoes and see if it makes you any faster.
|
| Why not? You only live once. Might as well try all the things
| you can try and do all the things you can do. Who knows?
| Maybe the psychological impact of having supershoes will make
| you a faster, better runner.
| nradov wrote:
| The benefits aren't just in speed. There is pretty strong
| anecdotal evidence from many elite distance runners that
| training in supershoes reduces leg strain and speeds up
| recovery. Thus they can come back and do a hard workout
| again the next day and achieve bigger training gains.
| saltybytes wrote:
| Vivid runner here with very low arches.
|
| My question is: do these supershoes work with supporters (that
| prevent my arches from collapsing)?
| digging wrote:
| Glad you asked here. I was taking down notes during the article
| to inquire about if this would help me get into running. I have
| very flat arches as well, but I've never been a runner and my
| knees are already pretty bad.
|
| (Aside: I think you meant "avid runner here")
| jasonpeacock wrote:
| I too had flat fleet, and wore arch supports for many years,
| but after training in barefoot running for a year I "fixed" the
| issue. I even ran a marathon in barefoot shoes! It sounds like
| an advertisement, but it was life-changing for me. (I'm also a
| big guy at 240lbs)
|
| The book I used is "Chi Running" but there's many similar
| books.
| hgomersall wrote:
| Yeah, not quite the same but my arches stabilised by moving
| to a more forward strike - mid to forefoot. We've been
| careful with my son who is now 6 to have flexible soled shoes
| and he naturally runs like this (may not be related, but
| interesting to note).
| tiffanyh wrote:
| Off topic: you'd think a university site wouldn't bombard you
| with pop-ups, ads and subscription sign-up.
|
| Immediate first impression isn't good, for this (presumably)
| respected publication.
| inemesitaffia wrote:
| No affiliation with the university
| tiffanyh wrote:
| It's owned by the university.
|
| Just the editorial is independent (no influence from
| university on topics/content published).
|
| > MIT Technology Review is a bimonthly magazine wholly owned
| by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and
| _editorially_ independent of the university.
|
| > Technology Review billed itself as "MIT's Magazine of
| Innovation". Since 2001, it has been published by Technology
| Review Inc., a nonprofit independent media company _owned by
| MIT_.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Technology_Review#:~:text=.
| ...
| getwiththeprog wrote:
| I agree, I u-block zapped the elements, but it dissuaded me
| from seeking other articles on their site.
| mcswell wrote:
| "... physical attributes more common in this group that are
| conducive to an energy-efficient gait, including... a high ratio
| of leg length to torso." I wonder how much the added height of
| the shoes mimics (or exaggerates) having long legs?
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Increases the torque arm.
|
| Also probably increases the amount of elastic energy stored in
| the Achilles tendon.
| Qem wrote:
| > Increases the torque arm.
|
| Does the increased torque arm of thick sole shoes also
| increase ankle spraining risk?
| stevesimmons wrote:
| Here's a very good article from The Guardian about the rise of
| supershoes.
|
| I remember it well: it was published on the morning of this
| year's Paris marathon - which I was running in - and it made me
| feel inadequate for not having supershoes of my own.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/apr/07/carbon-fibre-s...
| fire_lake wrote:
| We take up running to get fit and then spend hundreds of dollars
| on footwear to reduce the effort it takes to run. People are
| funny :)
| yread wrote:
| it's even worse with cycling. You could get fit cycling a heavy
| bike around the neighborhood instead you spend thousands to go
| 100kms. And accidents always happen at the point most distant
| from home. And you get more flats the further you go
| stavros wrote:
| I took my (cheap and heavy) bicycle to the shop. The guy was
| going to oil the chain, but I told him not to, as my commute
| is fixed and I want it to be good exercise.
|
| I guess that, when you're racing, you want to win, not
| necessarily to expend max effort. For a commute where I use a
| bicycle instead of motorcycle specifically for the exercise,
| I want the opposite.
| fire_lake wrote:
| This would lead to increased component wear though.
| stavros wrote:
| Yeah, definitely. I expect I'll have to pay something to
| keep fit, and the chain and gears are probably cheaper
| than a gym subscription. They're also not very good
| components, which puts them in the bottom end of the
| price range, so that's good too.
| nsteel wrote:
| Please do be careful and monitor the condition of your
| chain if you're going to deliberately let it degrade. You
| can cause yourself quite a nasty accident when your chain
| snaps, or even slips on the teeth at an unfortunate
| moment. I'd personally find a different way to increase
| the effort e.g. carry more mass
| lukas099 wrote:
| This is real, it happened to me and it hurt.
| amluto wrote:
| Not to mention that a broken chain means an inoperable
| bike, and replacing a chain on the go is a messy job. And
| if the chainrings are worn due to a poorly maintained
| chain, a replacement new chain may not even fit
| correctly.
|
| So, even without injury, a broken chain even two miles
| away from town and a bike shop is no fun.
| sunshinesnacks wrote:
| I was going to say the same thing. A poorly maintained
| chain wears and "stretches," and in turn wears gears
| faster. There's no need to intentionally wear out
| components for better exercise - just ride a longer route
| faster, throw rocks in a backpack, etc. A poorly lubed
| chain only adds maybe 5-10 Watts, which is not much in
| terms of fitness improvements. And a worn chain and
| drivetrain is more prone to slipping or breaking, which
| is a good way to get injured.
|
| Edit: I just realized nsteel said pretty much the same
| thing below.
| finger wrote:
| If you want it to be even harder to bike, try releasing
| some air from the tires :)
| stavros wrote:
| Oh I do! I pump them up to considerably less than full.
| alamortsubite wrote:
| A trailer is another nice handicap that has the benefit of
| greatly expanding cargo space. Cumbersome in an urban
| environment, however.
| ericmcer wrote:
| I run to get fit but it is also freeing to know your body can
| cover distance without much effort. If the coffee shop is a
| mile away but you are a decent runner you can go there and back
| in ~20 minutes without getting tired/sweaty. No car, no bike or
| other equipment, just step out the door and go. If a pair of
| shoes could extend my range I am all for it.
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