[HN Gopher] It's getting harder to die
___________________________________________________________________
It's getting harder to die
Author : baud147258
Score : 223 points
Date : 2024-06-25 11:28 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.plough.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.plough.com)
| Modified3019 wrote:
| The topic of a "living will" came up in a family discussion after
| my mother's funeral.
|
| None of us have a pathological desire to live at all costs, but
| as it turns out, figuring out when to say "yeah I'm done, see
| yah" and halt treatment is way more complex than it first seems,
| especially when making the decision for someone else. Things can
| happen very fast, and there's a bunch of things that basically
| require a job in the industry to know ahead of time.
|
| If anyone knows of some comprehensive resources for helping
| define reasonable limits, I'd love to hear it.
| rustcleaner wrote:
| There is the POLST form for governing interventions. There is
| durable medical and general powers of attorney. There are
| irrevocable trusts to protect trust assets from long term care.
| complaintdept wrote:
| Talk to an estate attorney and they can give you some advice,
| but ultimately you'll never be able to account for every
| possibility, and you're going to _have_ to trust somebody to
| make the right decisions for you at some point.
| onlypassingthru wrote:
| Anecdotally, a family friend was barely clinging on to life
| for a couple weeks enduring heavy pain meds and abject
| misery. Only when his close friend, and executor of his
| estate, sat beside him and told him everything was going to
| be alright did he finally find peace and let go. He was gone
| within 30 minutes.
| magnetowasright wrote:
| The Order of the Good Death has loads of resources on how to
| have these conversations, what your options for advanced
| directives etc. are, and guides on how to set everything up.
|
| https://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/
|
| They also do a lot of advocacy around green burial, alkaline
| hydrolysis, and whatnot as well.
|
| Caitlin Doughty (who founded the Order of the Good Death) Ask a
| Mortician channel on youtube covers this stuff too, but the
| older videos might be out of date.
| zhynn wrote:
| Thank you so so so much for posting this! I had no idea it
| existed, and I am so happy that it does.
|
| I also discovered that my home state has ZERO listed green
| burial sites, which is shocking to me because... I live in
| VT. I would have guessed it would be the leader in green
| burial, it is right up our wheelhouse!
| JansjoFromIkea wrote:
| "especially when making the decision for someone else"
|
| This gets additionally terrible when it's for someone else
| whilst handling the wishes of everyone else with significant
| ties to them.
|
| Had a relative die a while back who was going through absolute
| hell the final few days; some family members still have a
| massive grudge towards the hospice for what they feel like were
| moves done to ensure they died quicker. I've absolutely no clue
| why they seemed to think dying in massive pain over a longer
| span of time seemed better but they did.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I saw it with my father, also. Some people aren't ready to
| accept that death is coming and blame anyone/anything they
| can rather than accept it. Just try harder, you can do it!
|
| No. The cancer was everywhere and it was aggressive. Try what
| harder? There was nothing to do. Someone close to them felt
| my mother was being evil and incompetent in not pushing him
| to eat more. While he lost a lot of weight the cause of death
| was when it got his kidney (one had already been removed when
| it was thought to be stage 1.)
| ericmcer wrote:
| Kind of a tough read, I just turned 37 and this was the year when
| it really hit home that your body degrades and sometimes it never
| goes back to "normal". I was used to sports injuries being a
| pattern of injury -> recovery -> ramp back up to 100%, but have
| suffered some injuries recently and am coming to terms with
| realizing I will never return to 100%. They will be lingering
| things I deal with for the rest of my life.
|
| It is terrifying transitioning from seeing health as innate to
| viewing it as something you need to carefully nurture or it will
| slip away.
| silverquiet wrote:
| Not everyone gets even that - I've had mobility issues since I
| was seven years old. It's been strange to realize that it
| probably shaped my personality somewhat; I always felt older
| than my peers in some way. The silver lining might be that
| while now they are starting to say how old they feel (I'm
| basically the same age as you), I'll often tell them that I
| don't feel any older.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| > The silver lining might be that while now they are starting
| to say how old they feel (I'm basically the same age as you),
| I'll often tell them that I don't feel any older.
|
| As someone with chronic back pain since my late teens, this
| is... a nice perspective. My friend group isn't old enough
| yet for it to come up very often but I feel like I can
| relate.
| spoiler wrote:
| Sorry if I'm being nosey, but I'm curious about the chronic
| back pain. Is it something that developed over time, is it
| gwneti, is it an injury? How do you cope and manage it?
| cjk2 wrote:
| Hey you're me 15 years ago. I stopped the sports and switched
| to sustained low damage exercise like cycling, hiking, swimming
| etc. While you can't undo the damage done if you have a very
| high level of fitness, you can reduce the effects of the
| further progression of time. Better be as fit as a 50 year old
| with some damage when you're 70 than as fit as a 70 year old
| with some damage.
|
| End game is not pretty. My ex wife didn't do any fitness stuff
| at all and she's walking with a stick while I'm doing 30km
| hikes at 3000m...
| rqtwteye wrote:
| Same here. I had to switch from doing crazy stuff to just
| maintaining health. Hiking really fits the spot. I still get
| a lot of cardio (I have hiking trails with 1000m elevation
| gain within 10 minutes of driving) that way. But things like
| running or martial arts are out of the question. I am glad
| that I was able to adapt to a declining body. Some people my
| age still do high impact stuff and constantly get injured,
| take lots of painkillers and get surgeries.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| Part of me really wants to pick up hockey - just for fun,
| recreationally - but at 40, I'm worried that I'll get injured
| to the point where I won't be able to do other things I
| enjoy, like cycling.
|
| Hell, I fell off my bike from a stop a few weeks ago, and
| landed on my knee, and it took a week and a half before I
| felt like I could trust my leg to hold weight.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Don't do it. My sister took up hockey when she was 16 and
| lost 4 front teeth within 3 months. She's 45 now and just
| had the second set of replacements...
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| My teeth are already sufficiently bad that I'll likely
| need implants in the future anyway; I don't _want_ to
| lose them, but it wouldn 't impact my life as negatively
| as, say, a permanent back or knee injury would.
| el_duderino_ wrote:
| Of all the hockey injuries, this one rates pretty low for
| adult beer league if you just wear a cage. Wearing a full
| face cage reduces the risk of losing teeth to almost 0%
| chance of happening.
|
| Hockey does have risks of course, but playing in a non
| checking league takes the risk down to manageable levels
| in my opinion.
| el_duderino_ wrote:
| I recommend it fully! I learned to play at 32 and I am
| having a blast. Still some risk, but my local league is
| very laid back and we run very safe games. Being kitted out
| in protective gear really does make a difference in
| preventing injuries.
|
| Check and see if your local rink has an intro to hockey
| class and use that to get a feel for hockey.
| riku_iki wrote:
| your situation is probably not completely relevant to age, many
| injuries are not recoverable no matter how old you are. You
| accumulated risks of such injuries which produced result.
|
| If you switch to safer kinds of sport/workout, you still can
| have a chance to be very active for many years until old age.
| kingkongjaffa wrote:
| This really resonates with me. I'm 30 now. I had a rotator cuff
| injury last year and lost some range of motion in my shoulder
| for about 6 months.
|
| This year I got a personal trainer for the first time.
|
| I'm really trying to fight to get in shape and stay in shape.
|
| I spent my 20's working and for the last 5 years I work
| remotely, largely ignoring my health.
|
| Sitting in a home office all day is really bad for you.
| xenospn wrote:
| Go on walks! The sun/allergen exposure and vitamin D will be
| good for you. Literally put walks on your calendar so it's
| easier to remember.
| blue_dragon wrote:
| Use the next several years to build as much muscle as you can
| without damaging your joints. It gets extraordinarily
| difficult to add new muscle as you enter your mid-30s, but
| fortunately you still have time. I work out 3-4 days per week
| for ~90 minutes each.
|
| If you've never done strength training before, you may be
| pleasantly surprised to learn how much extra mass you can
| add, while remaining on a typical diet, with zero chemical
| assistance. Your trainer will be able to help you.
| silverquiet wrote:
| I started lifting weights at 37 after 10 years of being
| very sedentary, and within a few months people were
| mentioning that I had put on muscle. My impression was that
| sarcopenia doesn't start until the 60's and even then there
| are benefits to resistance training.
| kiba wrote:
| Reduced physical activity in old age will accelerate
| sarcopenia. If you're hospitalized, especially for long
| period of time, that will also accelerate muscle loss.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| > It gets extraordinarily difficult to add new muscle as
| you enter your mid-30s
|
| Only because it requires you to create a major new habit
| after 30 years on earth of not doing it, not because it's
| difficult physically. If you are putting in the time and
| especially the effort, it should be easy.
|
| That said, the common mistake in the gym is when people
| just kinda do reps at some easy weight and then stop short
| with a bunch more reps left in reserve. Never really
| pushing themself. I guarantee that describes anyone finding
| it extraordinary difficult to build muscle.
| adaptbrian wrote:
| On the flip side changing diet and it's effects on what folks
| might have seen as something they can never fix/change without
| _____ drug, might be transformational.
|
| With that said, my better half can't bend her arm past a
| certain part on her body, however, b.c of a really small/stupid
| collision/fall coming down a Tahoe MTN ski run. It always
| depends on the problem.
| nsguy wrote:
| I'm a fair bit older than you... What you're saying is true but
| it's also worth mentioning your body has capabilities you're
| probably far from reaching. Most people your age can still
| exceed any physical accomplishment they've had in their
| lifetime if they really want to. E.g. they can play sports
| better than they ever had and they can achieve personal bests
| in any physical ability. If you were a top level professional
| athlete that's probably not true (though even professional
| athletes have longer careers than they used to) or if you've
| been a top 10 GM in chess than that's probably behind you too,
| but otherwise you're young!
|
| I don't know what specific injuries you're suffering from but
| I've suffered from back pain and really improved my situation a
| lot. I'm physically stronger than I've ever been in my life.
| I've worked through some knee injuries. I've even recently
| improved my gum health (in a way someone said wasn't possible).
| It takes more work and more focus but our bodies are amazing
| machines and 37 ain't old.
| fibonachos wrote:
| I'm in my late forties and sprained my back/hip pretty badly
| right at the start of COVID. A year later I was having
| trouble descending stairs and starting to develop knee pain
| on the same side of my body. So I began a fairly rigorous
| resistance training program about two years ago with hopes of
| regaining full mobility. The results have been fantastic. I
| still have a bit of pain from in both the knee and back, but
| it's not disruptive. Most importantly, I have normal mobility
| and the injured areas have stabilized. With any luck it will
| continue to improve so long as I stick with it. That's in
| addition to all the other benefits that come with being in
| better physical shape.
| nsguy wrote:
| Nice! In my experience small issues can escalate if left
| unchecked because you start compensating and your body also
| "learns" to do things the wrong way.
| squidbeak wrote:
| I'm unsure your first point can be true. The pinnacle for a
| 37 year old is surely lower than for his 23 or 24 year old
| incarnation, if both life stages were given the same fitness
| programme. 37 is still very young, but there's already some
| trace of physical deterioration by then, most apparent in
| athletes who in almost all sports aside from golf, are off
| their peak by then.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| They're saying that you can be the best shape of your life
| beyond your prime potential years because almost nobody
| reaches their potential in their prime, which is trivially
| true, not that you can perform better at 37 than a
| theoretical maximum in your 20s that you never achieved.
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| I think that's why they said "most people":
|
| > Most people your age can still exceed any physical
| accomplishment they've had in their lifetime if they really
| want to. E.g. they can play sports better than they ever
| had and they can achieve personal bests in any physical
| ability.
|
| So not people who were at the peak of their
| ability/potential in their 20s - most people, however, do
| not perform at their limits in their 20s, simply because
| that isn't their priority, they don't train for it, etc.
| ttcbj wrote:
| I hear you. I'm almost 50, and see it coming as well. I highly
| recommend the book Outlive by Peter Attia. Just found it
| recently, wish I had read it at 37. It has really good ideas on
| extending your "health span ".
| crazygringo wrote:
| It might not be applicable for you, but just in case -- take a
| look at myofascial release, similar to trigger point therapy.
| Basically foam rolling on your legs, using a lacrosse ball and
| progressively smaller rubber balls across your back and
| shoulders and pecs, and a TheraCane on shoulders, neck, sides,
| etc. Also Alexander Technique lessons, which retrains you to
| use your muscles without the tension habits you've accumulated
| over your lifetime.
|
| The two of them together have changed my life. A lot of acute
| injuries of mine had healed, but had left my muscles extremely
| tight and essentially kind of frozen, which then creates
| problems with movement and posture and which then generates
| other kinds of pain. I too thought I'd never get back to
| "normal", and then was shocked to discover that I basically
| could, after a couple of years of undoing all the muscular
| tightness and "frozenness" through myofascial release and
| Alexander Technique. (Basically, the myofascial release gets
| rid of it, while Alexander teaches you how to prevent
| immediately re-forming it.)
|
| It's funny that myofascial release is only just starting to
| gain awareness among the medical community, while Alexander
| Technique still mainly only has awareness in the acting and
| musical performance communities.
| mock-possum wrote:
| Same age, same realization - stuff that used to be just
| 'tiring' now knocks me out the next day too while I recover;
| and everything, bumps and bruises and blood etc, seems to take
| nearly 3x the time to heal now.
| complaintdept wrote:
| ...and it's getting harder on the families too with nothing to
| really address it. It used to be one day you'd drop dead, or get
| really sick and be dead not long after, and your family after a
| terrible shock could begin readjusting to the new reality without
| their loved one. Now you can have what used to be a death
| sentence and continue living for years or even decades. But the
| systems which support the patient's life are not supporting their
| families, who have to live with the stress and financial burden
| of keeping their loved one alive, and the prolonged grieving
| process which can now take up a huge chunk of their lives and
| still doesn't really prepare them for death anyway.
|
| I'm not saying that we need to get rid of medical advances that
| prolong life, it's just that these things have created new
| problems that we aren't dealing with and that not many people are
| really talking about.
| cogman10 wrote:
| The problem is it's not black and white what the long term
| outcome will be. A cancer diagnosis that was terminal 20 years
| ago could mean in 20 years you'll die of a heart attack with a
| short period of horrible treatment.
|
| It gets even more dicey when you start talking about things
| like "well, the 20% chance is you'll survive this. The 80%
| chance is you'll die". Almost everyone is going to want to roll
| the 1/5 chance of living rather than taking the "you do nothing
| and you die" path, even if the 1/5 path is horribly terrible.
| FactKnower69 wrote:
| a Christian fundamentalist doing a 180 on Terri Schiavo because
| she rediscovered Luddism is certainly an interesting take
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| The fundamentalist stance on Schiavo's case (to continue care
| at all costs) was always interesting/puzzling to me. On some
| level I would assume that people with a strong belief in the
| afterlife would be more open to letting people pass from this
| mortal earth than those of us who don't have strong beliefs
| about an afterlife... but clearly that wasn't the case :P
| downrightmike wrote:
| Fundamentalists don't do things for others, they do them for
| themselves, to make themselves look better, or to be praised.
| They are superficial and fake. No one will miss them when
| they are gone.
| qgin wrote:
| Growing up in the church, it eventually became pretty clear
| that nobody actually believed in heaven. Almost nobody's
| actions were congruent with what you would do if you actually
| believed in heaven.
|
| The stances on death, the reactions when people died... it
| all matched what you'd do if you believed death was the end
| and none of it matched what you'd do if you believed people
| went on to eternal paradise.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| These are easily explained, and not evidence of your claim
| that Christians don't actually believe in heaven.
|
| I assume that by "stances on death" you mean that
| Christians generally believe that it is immoral to allow
| people to die. That is because we believe that the life of
| humans has a fundamental moral worth, such that it is wrong
| to kill them no matter the circumstances. Many Christians
| would agree that the patient of some terminal illness would
| be better off dead, but that doesn't give us the right to
| do the deed. We aren't consequentialists, we are
| deontologists. If something (i.e. killing people) is wrong,
| then it is wrong no matter if it leads to a better outcome.
|
| As far as "reactions when people died", it should be
| obvious but it sucks to lose your loved ones no matter
| what. Even if you felt completely certain that someone's
| soul was in heaven (and few would claim to be that certain,
| more on that in a bit), it's still _very painful_ to have
| to be separated from them. It 's comforting to believe that
| someone is (or will be) in heaven, but that comfort does
| _not_ just erase the pain that you have to endure in the
| here and now. People aren 't Vulcans, who can shrug things
| off through logical reasoning. They have feelings that are
| sometimes irrational but no less real because of it.
|
| Furthermore, nobody can have complete certainty of the
| future. If I were to lose my job, I would be upset and
| worried because of how that might impact my family. By your
| logic, this would mean that I don't actually believe that
| I'll be able to find a new job. But no, it just means that
| I know that the future isn't certain. I believe I could
| find a new job if I lost my current job today. But I'm not
| _certain_ , and that means I would be upset if I did lose
| my job. In a similar way, Christians believe in heaven but
| we can't be _certain_ , so we still fear death sometimes. I
| mean, Jesus himself was afraid of his impending torture and
| death at the hands of the Romans! It's just part of being
| human.
| vundercind wrote:
| Recently watched someone close die over a couple days, after a
| long decline.
|
| The last 24 hours were monstrous to inflict on anyone. Torture.
| Evil.
|
| Hours and hours of faltering breathing, often restarting with
| what was plainly a panicked adrenaline-pumping response. It
| looked like they felt like they were about to drown _every few
| minutes_ , hour, after hour, no relief. No IV fluids (terminal
| anyway, so no trying to keep them alive with techniques like
| that) and unable to drink, so certainly terribly thirsty the
| whole time. Unable to communicate or really engage with
| surroundings, and quite high on pain meds anyway (the closest
| thing to a mercy in all this). It's fucked up that that's a
| fairly normal way for dying people to make their exit. I'm sure
| there are all kinds of problems with trying to provide a way out
| when someone can't make the choice for themselves, without
| opening it up to abuse, but damn, I hope this isn't the best we
| can do because it's _terrible_.
| conroydave wrote:
| Watched my grandfather pass in the same way. Didn't seem right
| to let him pass of basically lack of food and hydration after
| 95 years even though also terminal. I just wanted to see him
| comfortable and he was far from it.
| pineaux wrote:
| Same here, but i have been told that dying is like that
| unless thoroughly drugged.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| In the last days when organs start failing, food and drink
| don't necessarily make things more comfortable since the body
| can't handle it.
| conroydave wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Helps a little bit
| spurgu wrote:
| I'm sorry for your loss.
|
| _Edit: I feel a bit dumb now, I hadn 't actually read the
| article yet, went straight for the comments. Seems like I'm
| just reiterating what it says._
|
| When I'm in that shape I just wanna go in peace. Preferably at
| home, in my own bed, surrounded by loved ones. No tubes down my
| throat, no shots to keep me alive at any cost, with no end in
| sight.
|
| Here's some good discussion on the topic between two doctors
| that I watched recently: https://youtu.be/O0YIGAUDlzQ?t=242
| lurking_swe wrote:
| The problem with this perspective in my opinion is that many
| times, especially for an elderly person, a small emergency
| can very quickly escalate into a life and death situation,
| and the outcome is not clear until it's too late. you may
| enter the hospital thinking you have a decent outcome, but
| you end up with a bad outcome.
|
| for example, nobody plans to go on a ventilator. But if you
| need one (like severe pneumonia), you're already pretty
| messed up and you're going to have a painful death with or
| without the tubes.
| tremon wrote:
| _you're going to have a painful death with or without the
| tubes_
|
| But I feel that was the main point at the start of the
| thread: if death is certain and going to be painful, why
| must we drag it out? Why is that additional lifespan
| (measured in days) so much more important than comfort?
| kqr wrote:
| The point is that it's not certain. With the medical
| assistance you might recover fine and live another five
| happy years.
|
| Is it really worth trading away that opportunity just to
| not accidentally die on a ventilator? I'm not sure.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| There's a good article[1] on this topic that talks about
| how older doctors generally choose to forego lifesaving
| measures. I think about it a lot because it seems like
| when a professional who's in the best position to know
| the tradeoffs makes this kind of decision for themselves
| they probably understand the risk/reward better than you
| or me.
|
| [1] https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2013/03/how-
| doctors-die/
| criddell wrote:
| I think that's the article that made me change my opinion
| on CPR. When the hospital asks me to sign the form
| indicating if I want to be resuscitated, I answer no
| without hesitation. It's harder when my vet asks before
| operating on my dog, but in the end I made the same call
| for my dog that I would make for myself - do not
| resuscitate.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| Plenty of people who make the sausage don't want to eat
| it.
|
| I never wanted to go into medicine. Thus I do not believe
| the preferences of a typical older doctor represent my
| preferences in this respect.
|
| I read an article once of a nurse who kept CPR going on
| her husband for somewhere around 2 hours until they could
| get him to a hospital that was able to restart his heart.
| I believe he ended up okay. CPR obviously isn't invasive
| tubing, but it's still kind of hard on the body.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| It depends on the situation.
|
| If it's part of a long decay I would categorically refuse
| anything like that. If it's due to an abrupt and fixable
| thing give it a try.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| https://www.sciencealert.com/study-more-patients-could-
| survi...
|
| > Yet families are often asked to make the call within 72
| hours of someone sustaining a severe brain injury. Unless
| patients make a rapid recovery in the first few days, it's
| thought they are unlikely to survive or recover much at
| all.
|
| > The data Sanders and colleagues analyzed tentatively
| suggest otherwise.
|
| > The data revealed that 31 of the 56 brain trauma patients
| who stayed on life support died within six months; and 45
| percent survived. Of the 25 patients who survived, more
| than 30 percent recovered enough in that same six-month
| period to have at least some independence in daily
| activities.
|
| > Just four patients recovered 'fully' to how they
| functioned before their injury.
| dralley wrote:
| > some independence in daily activities
|
| "some" is doing a lot of work in this sentence.
| Recovering enough to have "at least some" independence
| after several months is not a great outcome. That very
| likely means lifelong daily care is required.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| I know. That objection was brought up in the first
| article I read on this issue. Still, depending on the
| care required, it's pretty bad to imply that someone is
| better off dead.
|
| And 7% of the study subjects recovered completely.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| The idea of living long term, near death, while medical
| expenses slowly eat away the savings I would prefer to
| leave to my loved ones makes me very unhappy.
| nottorp wrote:
| > I just wanna go in peace
|
| I wonder what 'go in peace' means if you explain it
| medically. Possibly abrupt heart failure?
|
| From the deaths of older relatives that I've (sort of)
| witnessed, if any other part of your body fails it's going to
| be slower and a lot more unpleasant.
| briffle wrote:
| > and unable to drink, so certainly terribly thirsty the whole
| time.
|
| I know people that work in hospice, and they say this is a big
| misconception (the article hints at it too). they patients
| don't die from lack of water, they don't want water because
| they are dying, and their body can't process it. In fact, as
| you kind of touched on at the start, giving them IV fluids can
| cause them to drown since their body can't process the water.
|
| Death is pretty ugly thing, that comes for us all. I got to
| learn the fun way that in the state of Oregon, it is illegal to
| disable a pacemaker. Even when the person has a DNR, and it is
| really the only thing keeping them alive. The best the doctors
| can do is turn the pacemaker down as low as possible, and hope
| its not enough to keep the person artificially alive. Which
| seems kind of really weird, when its also the first and one of
| the only states that allows medically assisted suicide..
| Flumio wrote:
| The best thing they can do is shoot me with a nice does of
| heroin and after the high.just ending it.
|
| We know how to end life's.
| FerretFred wrote:
| It's probably ironic that it's never been easier to buy
| that drug (and others) and decide your own fate compared
| with trying for a dignified and hopefully pain-free death
| the "legal" way.
| throwup238 wrote:
| Doubly so given the epidemic of fentanyl contamination.
| FerretFred wrote:
| We haven't had that (yet) on this side of The Pond but
| I'm sure it'll happen.
| throwup238 wrote:
| Brexit benefits! It's the one thing Tories got right in
| 14 years. * _laughs maniacally_ *
| FerretFred wrote:
| I suspect it's the only Europe-UK supply chain that
| hasn't been affected by Brexit :) Maybe the Tories need
| to persuade a few drug dealers to go straight and fix the
| whole supply chain problem.
| throwup238 wrote:
| _> Maybe the Tories need to persuade a few drug dealers
| to go straight and fix the whole supply chain problem._
|
| They'll get Michael Gove right on that!
| FerretFred wrote:
| He's the right man for the job!
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48572982
| KMag wrote:
| Granted death penalty opponents are biased, but it's often
| said that barbituate overdose is a very unpleasant way to
| die. I've also heard opiod overdose is unpleasant.
|
| I was once helping take down a 10-foot weather balloon full
| of helium, and took in two breaths in a row of pure helium.
| I started to get tunnel vision, said "whoah", sat down when
| I realized I was about to lose consciousness, fell down,
| and twitched just long enough for my friend to realize I
| wasn't joking around before I woke up. From my experience,
| hypoxia from pure helium is slightly pleasant all the way
| to loss of consciousness. I presume pure nitrogen would be
| nearly the same.
|
| Let my last words be something witty in a high-pitched
| helium voice.
|
| (Side note: pure nitrogen hypoxia would not be a
| particularly humane form of execution because the condemned
| would likely fight it by holding on to their last breath.)
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Yup, AFIAK hypoxia is the best way to go. Survivors who
| are rescued in time (or, like you, self-rescue) don't
| have a bad experience. The MAiD protocol used in Canada
| likewise appears to not be a bad experience as the only
| thing the patient experiences is anesthesia.
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| I'm also coming to the conclusion that inert gas hypoxia
| is going to be my way out. My end has to be, as far as I
| can make it, painless and polite, meaning a happy exit
| with minimal inconveniencing of as few as possible other
| people. Any suitable substance for this seems to be taken
| off the market, even basic stuff like metal nitrites (as
| used in curing meat. Try getting hold of a nontrivial
| amount of this in the UK). I don't have the inclination
| to follow up Project Peanut; I don't have the background
| for this.
|
| I fully understand why this has been done, to stop people
| who only intermittently get the urge, but for someone
| like me it's a major bloody inconvenience, so inert gas
| it most likely is.
|
| (The above is not an opener for a discussion, it's an FYI
| for a different perspective. Please don't respond).
| Flumio wrote:
| Any thoughts on how to inhale it without risking others
| finding you in a oxygen deprived setup?
|
| Like a warning sign or some fan kicking in later?
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| You don't set up such an environment in the first place.
| Tank to flow limiter to hose to bag.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Oregon pioneered death with dignity so this is a huge
| surprise.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Does the pacemaker law predate the death with dignity law?
|
| I'm wondering if it only anticipated pacemakers being
| disabled for malice or out of negligence.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| All the US death with dignity laws are lethal
| prescriptions only, the patient must self-administer.
| Turning off a pacemaker would be the doctor doing it, not
| the patient.
| louwrentius wrote:
| I'm quite convinced that I live in a country where we never let
| people die like this.
|
| Also, I guess prolonging treatment is in the interest of for-
| profit hospitals as found in other countries, thus as long as
| your suffering is profitable, you wil...
| bamboozled wrote:
| I made a similar comment already but I kind of agree. I'm not
| sure if it's about profit it's also about legal concerns. I
| think legally doctors are supposed to keep you alive until
| they can't anymore?
| ksenzee wrote:
| No, truly, doctors are not legally required to keep people
| alive against their will. It's just that you have to have
| made it clear in advance what kind of life-saving and
| comfort measures you want. You have to say "yeah actually I
| don't want all that." It's hard on the doctors to watch
| people dying painfully with too much life support, too.
| They know what kind of death they want, and it's not that.
| (As the article reflects.)
| ksenzee wrote:
| I would be surprised if there exists a country where people
| never die like this. You would have to euthanize every single
| person who died of a long list of natural causes.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Maybe NK will implement mandatory euthanasia at 63 or
| something crazy.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| This is from personal experience, but there is a difference
| between letting someone take 2 weeks to starve or die of
| dehydration, and big-letters "euthanasia". Sometimes the
| people who work in palliative care are nuanced enough to
| ease you out when your _final_ days come. Where I live,
| euthanasia is not legal. But when my sister was dying from
| cancer she directly told her palliative meds guy "I
| watched my uncle gasp for two weeks. I'm not going like
| that. You hear me?"
|
| When it came to it, she didn't. It still wasn't petty
| because death-by-cancer never is. She was extremely weak
| and thin and tired. But on her last day she spoke to
| everyone in the family, gave weak hugs, said goodbyes. I
| guarantee you that guy took away days (at least) of
| suffering. We all knew that. He knew that. She knew that.
| Nobody said it though.
|
| And I think that's better than someone who can't afford to
| deal with a disability being asked if they're prefer to die
| than cost the state lots of money. Horror stories _both_
| sides of the nuance.
| louwrentius wrote:
| This is mostly how it works for most people who die like
| this in my country where Euthanasia is legal.
| Krssst wrote:
| > I guess prolonging treatment is in the interest of for-
| profit hospitals as found in other countries
|
| France does the same but has nationalized healthcare, so it
| does not seem motivated by profits. It puts pressure on the
| healthcare system and only brings additional suffering. We
| could change that, but implementing assisted death needs
| careful consideration and defeating politically the small
| subset of people that think life with extreme suffering is
| precious.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > but implementing assisted death needs careful
| consideration
|
| Yes.
|
| > and defeating politically the small subset of people that
| think life with extreme suffering is precious.
|
| You don't need to defeat us. All you need is a clear-cut
| agreement between the patient and the doctor, preferably in
| advance for those who are physically unable to decide at
| the end, similar to a DNI. Between the patient and the
| doctor, and possibly the patient's family, it's no one
| else's business (though I still think second-party
| euthanasia of non-terminal persons is disgusting, and that
| they should commit suicide without involving a second
| party). It's when government or other third parties start
| getting involved that everyone should have an issue with
| euthanasia.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| You're assuming the person has enough function to commit
| suicide.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| If you reread my comment more closely you'll see that I'm
| not. I list a couple of options, only one of which is
| suicide. I'm willing to tolerate various things that I
| consider repugnant, even though there is a limit.
| camel_gopher wrote:
| That breathing pattern is called the death rattle.
| tmjwid wrote:
| When my dad died last year from aggressive relapse of cancer,
| his death rattle was so intense my mum couldn't deal with it
| and had to leave the room when it was happening, it's a
| disturbing experience. She's still traumatised by it today.
| bamboozled wrote:
| I've witnessed similar and in a way, I think the person was
| kept alive too long. I personally think they would've died from
| other causes well before it got to the stage they were at.
| Euthanasia is probably a pretty important thing because of
| this. If we're going to resuscitate people in their 80s, then
| maybe we shouldn't let them go through the "long death" a few
| years later.
|
| All in all it's a tragic thing the only constellation is that I
| guess after 24 hours in that, one welcomes death with open
| arms.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I saw it with my father--to take the pain the morphine also
| took his memory. And in the end there was only suffering--
| fortunately, the problem would quickly kill making him
| eligible for terminal sedation.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Here they would ask you (unless dementia and not arranged,
| which is an ongoing issue) if you want more morphine and you
| can keep saying yes until you don't wake up. Or click the
| button yourself; there is no limit (also; very hackable these
| limiting machines). Probably many people in a long decline
| would just hold the button until not waking up; that is the way
| it should be. Some people worry about the gov making us wear
| masks; I worry about govs preventing me from getting out when I
| want to. Not your fucking business mate.
| ozim wrote:
| You know that government doesn't care about you.
|
| They care about your relatives who are burdened not
| "accidentally" holding that button for you when somehow you
| would still like to live.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| In the US, the big reason is religious groups that want to
| force their religion onto others.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| There are anti-euthanasia atheists (E.g. Kevin Yuell).
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| There are pro assisted suicide religions too.
|
| Neither of those matter because they don't hold massive,
| disproportional influence over a huge part of the US
| political establishment.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| In general in the US only White Evangelical Protestants
| and Black Protestants have less than a majority who
| believe assisted suicide / euthanasia should be available
| for "great pain and no hope of improvement", and those
| two groups still have over 40% who believe it should be
| available.
|
| And that's as of 2015, so the trend may be higher by now.
| https://www.pewresearch.org/short-
| reads/2015/10/05/californi...
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| My bad, it's Yuill.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| There's an interesting case right now in Vancouver
| against the largest hospital downtown which is affiliated
| with Catholics (I think, St Paul's is the facility in any
| case).
|
| Several in-patients that opted for medical assistance in
| dying were refused that treatment by administrators of
| the hospital on religious grounds, and their families are
| sueing based on the additional suffering inflicted by
| having to transfer to other facilities.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Catholic hospitals are a big problem in the US too.
| dntrkv wrote:
| That has nothing to do with it. Society in general is just
| uncomfortable with the idea of euthanasia and politicians
| don't want to be labeled as promoting "suicide"
|
| It's just not a great hill to die on since most people that
| actually care strongly about the issue are the ones bed
| ridden in the hospital.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Yes, this has been my experience with a family friend who
| died of a brain tumor. Basically, once you're in hospice (in
| this case it was home hospice) and it's clear you're going to
| die, they just hook you up to the morphine drip that you can
| press yourself.
|
| Obviously for many people it's still very scary - it is
| _death_ after all. But the self-administered morphine drip
| has been around for ages and is relatively uncontroversial.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| My dad had cancer that had spread to the lungs.
|
| He got pneumonia at the stage where he was having to use an
| oxygen machine at home. At the hospital he asked the doctors if
| he'd be able to go home, and they said it was highly unlikely.
|
| So, he asked them to turn off the oxygen, which they did. He
| passed peacefully a few hours later.
|
| Sure, we might have gotten a few extra months with him, but I'm
| so glad the doctors respected his wishes. My worst fear was him
| having to endure something like what you describe.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| That was my mother's philosophy. The hospital is for fixing
| you up and sending you home. If the sending home part isn't
| going to happen she didn't want treatment.
|
| The reality is there comes a point where the doctors can only
| prolong the dying--and in an awful lot of such cases that's a
| negative for the person.
| kstenerud wrote:
| Someone I know acquired potassium cyanide for this reason.
| She's getting up there in age and wanted some insurance against
| a horrible death.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Yeah, we are so obsessed with keeping people alive that this
| sort of thing is prudent behavior.
| toss1 wrote:
| So sorry to read of your loss, and the painful way it goes.
|
| Sadly, this is just one of millions of descriptions of why the
| phrase "Slow as death" exists. Generally, life _really_ does
| not want to give up, and the process is indeed _terrible_.
| ChumpGPT wrote:
| I watched someone die of ALS for 6 months, it was pure hell on
| earth. A middle aged guy who basically was vibrant and in
| average health struck down from out of no where, the final
| moments were horrific when they turned off the life support.
| Even his diagnoses was difficult since no doctor wanted to
| deliver the news and it required a trip to the MAYO Clinic to
| finally get an answer.
|
| I have often wondered why he was chosen to carry such a burden,
| a harmless and kind person.
| Theodores wrote:
| This is a really good article, not least for the list of ways
| that you will be kept medically alive.
|
| As for the premise of the article, it is definitely getting
| easier to die. We had the plumbers and the rubbish collecting
| workers clear up our communicable chronic diseases, we de-
| industrialised and cleared up the air, we quit smoking, put on
| our seat belts and reigned in the alcohol. So far so good.
|
| But, if you look at the physiques of people, the levels of car
| dependency and the predominance of the Standard American Diet, it
| seems that people are going the way of Joe Biden in old age, to
| have what you might call a loss of cognitive abilities, yet able
| to be preserved near indefinitely. The President isn't unalive,
| but he isn't really there. Millions are in the same boat,
| functionally alive but only from the eye-sockets down, and
| probably with bits of their colon or bladder removed due to
| cancer that they have bravely fought with a diet of highly
| processed food and a sedentary lifestyle.
|
| When it comes to how to live a healthy life, there is so much
| misinformation that we are all an experiment of n = 1. There is
| no realm of information that is anywhere near as confusing as
| diet. Really you are forced to join one tribe or another if
| longevity is your game. Either you are going to go all in on
| 'everything in moderation' or go fully ketogenic meat only
| carnivore, or the other way, full on vegan.
|
| The Google confirmation bias is strong with the whole topic, and
| I am sure that I could look up 'can I get omega three fatty acid
| things from eating goat hair' and somewhere there will be an
| article or 'scientific paper' promoting the eating of goat hair,
| with a study from some goat herders living in Outer Mongolia,
| thousands of miles away from any fish, with excellent omega three
| things going on. There will also be an 'adsense' advert for where
| you can get goat hair online and Reddit threads on whether you
| need yak shavings instead.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| I mean Biden also comes off slow cause of his stutter. He just
| has to survive inauguration.
| blue_dragon wrote:
| To me, Biden comes off as slow because he frequently trails
| off mid-sentence without finishing his thoughts.
| paulpauper wrote:
| I am not a fan of Biden , but for an octogenarian to go on a
| stage and debate extemporaneously like that , as poor as his
| performance was, puts him in an above average category of
| health or capabilities. The average 80 year old does not exist
| (average life expectancy is 78) or much worse shape overall.
| We're not talking doing crossword puzzles, but stepping up on a
| stage before a national audience as President and debating. I
| think part of the perception of his bad performance can be
| explained by overinflated expectations. Trump's performance was
| not much better--not answering questions and defaulting to a
| few points that he attempted to shoehorn at every turn to
| speak-- but, yes, he looked and sounded better. Again, Trump is
| also an exception: it helped that his dad lived to 93; good
| genes are a thing.
| downrightmike wrote:
| Or just like trump who shits his pants constantly
| basisword wrote:
| >> But, if you look at the physiques of people, the levels of
| car dependency and the predominance of the Standard American
| Diet, it seems that people are going the way of Joe Biden in
| old age
|
| If I can continue in my career at 80, let alone run one of the
| biggest countries in the world, I'll be pretty happy. Car
| dependence, the SAD and obesity are going to bring back heart
| attacks in ones 60's - not a generation of hard working
| octogenarians.
| Theodores wrote:
| Biden was not all there with his 'Cornpop' speech of 2017.
| After that performance he should have made a dignified
| retirement. The people around him should have shuffled him
| off the stage too. There was too much going on in his
| 'Cornpop was a bad dude' rambling that it really should have
| been game over, there and then.
|
| Notionally he has his finger on the nuclear button and he is
| a decade past his sell by date. You have to question the
| intellect of anyone, up to and including Obama, that do not
| see this.
|
| My cousin has an elderly dog that has a habit of knocking
| expensive crockery off a coffee table with his tail,
| blissfully unaware and unable to see the problems caused. We
| love the dog and tell him that he is a good boy, but we don't
| let him drive the car or light the barbeque. We commend the
| dog for being able to lay a golden nugget in the park but
| nobody else in the family gets told they have done well for
| doing a number two.
|
| For some reason people with Trump Derangement Syndrome seem
| to ignore reality with Biden, if he falls up the stairs then
| they make excuses for him, plus they know so much about him
| that they have no knowledge of the legendary 'Cornpop was a
| bad dude' speech, despite it being comedy gold.
|
| I have no problem with people that have mental disabilities,
| but the territory known as the United States can do better
| than to have octogenarians that have brains clearly addled by
| the American lifestyle of unhealthy food and unhealthy modes
| of transport.
| paxys wrote:
| Regular reminder to read _Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters
| in the End_ by Atul Gawande. It offers a detailed and sometimes
| shocking look into the end of life /palliative care system in the
| country and show just how broken the incentives are industry-
| wide.
| gammarator wrote:
| Strongly seconding this recommendation. Dr. Gawanda distills
| down how to be led by the dying person's priorities.
| pb060 wrote:
| I faced a similar problem as my wife had a chorionangioma, a
| placenta tumor. Or it was my son, it's even hard to tell who had
| it as placenta is external to both. In the hospital where we
| were, they were doing their best to keep the baby alive despite
| all the issues with the rupture of the amniotic sac and body
| damages that he already had, which I understand. What I didn't
| understand, and still don't, is how they were getting ready to
| try and keep him alive once he would be born, most probably at
| the 6th month and with probable brain and other physical damages.
| I respect doctors who can't choose between their patients life
| and death, and most of all parents who love their to be born kids
| so much that they are ready to face a life or hardship. I just
| think that medicine should not just focus on keeping patients
| alive, but also consider the quality of their life before taking
| a decision together with the relatives.
| mcshicks wrote:
| Had a pretty close childhood friend choose assisted suicide (in
| California) a few years ago after a year long battle with blood
| cancer. It's not easy to do, I think his biggest fear was losing
| his ability to consent as his mental condition declined rapidly.
| The link below outlines the process. He was getting home hospice
| care staying at an Aunt's house hear the hospital he was treated
| at. I don't think it is the right choice for everybody, but I
| certainly think in my friends case it was.
|
| https://www.uclahealth.org/patient-resources/support-informa...
| mbesto wrote:
| We don't let people die with grace in the US. Not only is
| pathetic and not very noble, but its a massive drain on the cost
| of healthcare.
| globalnode wrote:
| if you opt to stay home to die but youre in terrible pain, who's
| going to administer the pain meds? whos going to be there 24/7 to
| clean up or get you whatever you need? what this article is
| talking about is either very very very expensive home care or a
| family that basically become full time carers. with our society
| no longer advocating communal living and a sort of "every man for
| themselves" attitude throughout life, how is all of this actually
| supposed to work in reality? -- nice sentiment but unrealistic
| except for a very lucky few it seems. this is what hospitals are
| for now.
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| At-home hospice care exists for exactly this reason :)
| globalnode wrote:
| " very very very expensive home care "
| everybodyknows wrote:
| In California, "hospice care" consists only of drug and
| supply deliveries plus occasional checkins from a nurse. The
| rest of the 23/7 care falls to the family.
| TriangleEdge wrote:
| I'd like to see a survey about opinions on keeping people alive
| using modern medicine. The survey would have a filter for people
| who believe in evolution and survival of the fittest. How is the
| cognitive dissonance around it resolved?
| michaelhoney wrote:
| Tell me more about the dissonance you see. "Survival of the
| fittest" just means that in a challenging environment, those
| who can adapt will survive to go on and have children.
|
| If you are saying that modern medicine keeps some people alive
| through to parenthood who would otherwise have perished: yes,
| that's true. We have made our environment less challenging.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| I'm not the GP, but a social Darwinist would presumably be in
| favor of medical extension of life (for those who can access
| it), while a moral evolutionist would presumably be against
| it. I think there is the possibility of a philosophical
| dissonance here in some of the Randian types.
| snakeyjake wrote:
| "The fittest" isn't "the strongest" or "the mostest toughest"
| it is "the best at procreation in the environment in which they
| live".
|
| Assuming that people being kept alive by modern medicine are
| better at procreation, they are indeed the fittest.
|
| Of course most of the people being kept alive by modern
| medicine are old as hell, though, so they are hardly the
| childbearing or rearing type.
|
| So now I'm confused as to why you brought it up?
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| I think this: > The survey would have a filter for people who
| believe in evolution and survival of the fittest.
|
| Just means that the survey would ask that question. I'm
| guessing that GP wants to check whether those who believe in
| the Darwin awards as well as the moral justness of
| evolutionary pressure killing certain people earlier that
| other people, would be more opposed to using modern medicine
| to keep people alive.
|
| Maybe? It really depends because modern medicine is part of
| social Darwinism, even though it is against evolutionary
| biological survival of the fittest. So I could see this going
| multiple ways among this subset of people. I'd expect the
| richest of them to believe both in medical extension of life
| (and fertility treatments) as well as believing that only
| those who can personally, or societally, afford such
| intervention should get it. This may be the dissonance GP is
| mentioning.
| j_bum wrote:
| Slightly tangential, but I believe this article segues into a
| discussion about assisted suicide or euthanasia at the end of
| life.
|
| My entire family has been suffering over the past 18 months
| watching my 88-year-old grandmother slowly pass away from age-
| related deterioration and AD.
|
| I worked with mice during my PhD training in the US. If a lab was
| caught with lab mice suffering like my grandmother is without
| euthanizing them, the lab would be liable to be shut down.
|
| So I ask: why am I forced to sit and watch my grandmother suffer
| slowly to death? Why can't there be assisted suicide/euthanasia
| protocols in place to prevent this suffering?
| squigz wrote:
| Because far too many people believe that human life is the most
| precious thing on Earth and willingly ending it is literally
| the worst thing you could ever do.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Or even more grotesque, that the suffering for death is a key
| part to a righteous afterlife.
| tsol wrote:
| There's also the worry that it will be abused. Kids who want
| their inheritance, people who have been abused and told it's
| the right thing for them when it's not, or just insurance
| trying to save money by avoiding more expensive treatments
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| You aren't forced to. You can take matters into your own hands
| and trust that a jury will let you off the hook.
|
| > Why can't there be assisted suicide/euthanasia protocols in
| place to prevent this suffering?
|
| Even most religious people believe in mercy killing. The issue
| is the slippery slope, and the fact that various people have
| slid down this slope in every country with legal assisted
| suicide or euthanasia. Whenever you are going to have a third
| party, or even just a second party, involve itself in someone's
| death, you have to figure out how to deal with issues every bit
| as serious as letting someone suffer to death.
|
| https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/10/05/californi...
| Perenti wrote:
| It's worse than the article says, because it's from a doctor's
| perspective.
|
| I have CRPS, one of the contenders for worst chronic pain you can
| have. It's a "suicide disease", because if it advances to stage
| 3/4, there's a suicide rate of about 70%. It sucks a lot. I've
| had well over 200 spinal procedures over the last 30 years to try
| to mitigate the pain, with dozens of other surgical procedures in
| less tricky spots.
|
| I also have Brugada Syndrome, a "drop dead suddenly without
| warning" disease. When diagnosed, I wanted to take my time before
| consenting to having an implanted defib. The doctors announced
| that "Mr Foster, we believe you are not rational at the moment",
| fortunately I had a friend with me who assured them I was
| probably the most rational man in Brisbane.
|
| I was threatened with an ITO (Involuntary Treatment Order) if I
| didn't go ahead with having an internal defibrilator put in me. I
| went ahead with the procedure.
|
| So I can't even die by refusing treatment, as "sane" people
| resist dying at all odds. If I don't want invasive, painful
| procedures that take over a year to recover from, then the courts
| will claim I'm suicidal and issue an order to the hospitals to
| proceed with more bloody cutting.
|
| No, sane people say "I've had enough". Fortunately my current GP
| understands, as he says "Sometimes people feel they've had enough
| medicine".
| nextaccountic wrote:
| > I was threatened with an ITO (Involuntary Treatment Order) if
| I didn't go ahead with having an internal defibrilator put in
| me.
|
| Did this threat come from a doctor? What an astounding lack of
| empathy.
|
| I would switch medical providers in a heartbeat if at all
| possible.
| cm2012 wrote:
| I personally would be so upset in that situation, that I
| would refuse it on principal from that provider after being
| threatened, health be damned.
| fdsavjakslj wrote:
| It's not personal-- the docs are there to cure disease and
| just doing what they know, personhood be darned.
|
| Also, in the moment, it's entirely possible that somebody
| who is otherwise completely rational who just had a life-
| altering experience is temporarily less than completely
| rational and you're only hearing that one side of the
| story.
| LocalH wrote:
| That's the problem. It's _not_ personal, and humanity is
| not even a factor in that hospital 's assessment.
|
| Why does society refuse to allow people to have mental
| and physical autonomy in matters like this? Sure, they
| pay lip service to it, but when it comes down to the hard
| moments, we almost always end up erring on the wrong
| side.
| bowsamic wrote:
| > Did this threat come from a doctor? What an astounding lack
| of empathy.
|
| Perhaps this is a US vs. other countries thing, but I live in
| Germany and was born in the UK, and I'm quite shocked that
| you are surprised by unempathetic (or downright evil) doctors
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| May I ask if you've considered taking measures to end your own
| life?
|
| I think I've had an unusual number of people close to me choose
| that option, including my father recently so I guess I'm still
| trying to reconcile it all. Their pain vs mine, what could have
| played out differently, etc.
|
| I sincerely wish the best outcome for you and yours.
| pvaldes wrote:
| And that's a good thing
|
| Or maybe people got softer. Do we remember the 90% of time where
| humans roamed this planet barefoot without painkillers, or
| healthcare, or a guaranteed source of water that does not carry
| those roundworm parasites that love to swim inside your eyes, or
| anti polar bear sprays so they didn't tear you off and eat
| alive?. Those were hard deaths.
|
| The 120% of the times, being alive is the smartest option, even
| if this carries a cost.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| : barefoot
|
| That's what calluses are for.
|
| : without painkillers
|
| And poppies, and
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9785912/ . Even
| animals know what plants to eat to help with pain.
|
| : or healthcare
|
| Someone in the tribe knew how to make a splint and what herbs
| or foods were best for what ailment.
|
| : or a guaranteed source of water that does not carry those
| roundworm parasites that love to swim inside your eyes
|
| In general I expect that there would be few enough people, and
| they'd be sufficiently knowledgeable of the water sources among
| the areas they frequented, that this usually wouldn't be a
| problem.
|
| https://askdruniverse.wsu.edu/2018/08/31/dr-universe-people-...
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/01/how-did-...
|
| > One group of students decided to put this method to the test.
| They hoisted their water-filled deer hide directly over a fire,
| and they planned to let it go as long as the hide stayed
| intact. The hair on the outside singed, but the skin itself
| held up just fine. So the students waited and waited and
| waited. Four hours later, the hide was still intact. It did get
| very hard, but neither sprung a leak nor burned.
|
| : or anti polar bear sprays so they didn't tear you off and eat
| alive?.
|
| I'm pretty sure that by the time some of us migrated to where
| polar bears live we had some pretty good spear technology.
| wiseowise wrote:
| > Or maybe people got softer. Do we remember the 90% of time
| where humans roamed this planet barefoot without painkillers,
| or healthcare, or a guaranteed source of water that does not
| carry those roundworm parasites that love to swim inside your
| eyes, or anti polar bear sprays so they didn't tear you off and
| eat alive?. Those were hard deaths.
|
| What's your point here?
| qgin wrote:
| ICUs are amazing technology. You can keep almost anyone in a
| temporary state of stasis. This is great for people who have a
| condition that just needs more time to heal (like a lot of people
| with Covid, or people after car accidents). But for people who
| have something unrecoverable, it's a very weird place to be.
| You've been pushed off the ledge and are now frozen in midair.
| You will hit the ground when the magic is removed, but you also
| can't stay frozen forever.
| 2-3-7-43-1807 wrote:
| how about suicide? i'd compare it to knowing when the party is
| over and then going home instead of getting yet another drink and
| miserably trying to score with the last remaining woman. it's an
| art and it can be trained at many occasions. now for the act
| itself - the regular hn crowd should be technically apt enough to
| assemble the required gear around a big gas cylinder of nitrogen.
| that's as peaceful as it gets.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| I'd like dying to be as easy as flicking a switch.
|
| Medically-assisted suicide ought to be available to _anyone_ (not
| only of sound mind and not only with a terminal condition), and
| at any time. People ought to have the right to die, just like
| they have the right to water, food, and shelter. In most
| countries it is currently easier to take other people 's lives
| than to take one's own.
|
| People ought to be able to step into a hospital, ask 'hey, I'd
| like to die', sign a couple of forms saying 'yes, I'd really
| _really_ like to die ', step into an anoxic chamber, and be put
| into hypoxia and brain death in a matter of minutes. Obviously,
| an emergency stop plunger ought to be available in case the
| person in question changes their mind.
|
| The belief that life is a gift from a god is a highly
| Christocentric, Western view that I disagree with. We are brought
| into the world without any real consent; we should at least be
| able to easily choose the date, time, and manner of our passing
| if we so desire.
| treprinum wrote:
| Let's run a thought experiment - you make death super easy like
| in a suicide booth in Futurama. How many people are going to
| fight life obstacles, pushing society forward, or rather
| terminally quit at the first sign of troubles? Nihilism was
| quite popular in the 19th century and led us to two world wars
| already. All you'll get is a quick extinction of people like
| you in favor of those that persist and your opinion will be
| eliminated from the gene pool.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| In the West I think alcohol is a massive factor, when talking
| about the moods of large numbers of people in those days. It
| is no accident that alcoholic drinking was banned outright
| for some time, despite the deep cultural roots.
| Liquix wrote:
| booze has been around for thousands of years. it's not good
| for you but it's also not a new phenomenon driving suicide
| numbers up.
|
| IMHO it's a combination of low wages, high cost of living,
| and scrolling/gaming/streaming/porn addiction. we don't
| know how to talk about it yet but it's fucking people up.
| human brains were not ready for what the internet has
| become
| mantas wrote:
| Booze - yes. Culture around booze... not exactly. Serious
| drinking was reserved for festivals and generally frowned
| upon. Nowadays... it's much more common and much more
| abused. And modern alcohol is getting stronger and
| stronger, same with other drugs.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| If anything I suspect booze reduces suicide numbers. For
| some people it's an escape that makes life tolerable.
|
| I'm thinking of a book whose title eludes me at present.
| It's by a doctor, talking about their ER experience. One
| of their frequent fliers--and one time he talked a bit
| about why. He had been a sniper in Afghanistan (Afghani,
| fighting the Russians), he drank to keep from killing
| himself because of the horrors he had experienced.
| educasean wrote:
| The west? Alcohol has a much, much firmer grip over East
| Asia than any western countries I've seen. I think your
| analysis is very much incomplete.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| > How many people are going to fight life obstacles, pushing
| society forward, or rather terminally quit at the first sign
| of troubles?
|
| Not many, probably, but the option should be available to
| those who need it.
|
| > Nihilism was quite popular in the 19th century and led us
| to two world wars already
|
| I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. Firstly, I'm not nihilistic,
| but practical. Not everyone who wants to die is suffering;
| sometimes they just want out of a pointless and meandering
| life. They don't want to put in the effort to up themselves,
| and frankly, why _should_ they? What right do other people
| have to impose their views on someone who 's feeling like
| this?
|
| Sometimes one _is_ suffering, but can 't be bothered to, or
| might suffer more while trying to convince the state and a
| medical team that they deserve to die. It's 2024, and we have
| increasing acceptance of the gender spectrum, of the autism
| spectrum, of recreational narcotics, and more. Why is dying
| so marginalised? Like I said, this is a Christocentric view.
| A modern society must allow its citizens to die quietly,
| peacefully, and cleanly, whenever they choose.
|
| Next, what led to the two world wars was not 'nihilism', a
| very loaded single word, but rather a bunch of overly-complex
| defence pacts, treaties, and arms races in 1900s Europe that
| eventually collapsed into a bloody shit show. The second
| world war happened because of a feeling of revenge, anti-
| semitism, and Slavophobia on the part of the Germans, and
| imperialism on the part of all the Axis powers. Nothing more,
| nothing less. Depending on who you ask WW2 began as early as
| 1910 with the invasion and occupation of Korea by Japan.
|
| > your opinion will be eliminated from the gene pool
|
| Wanting to die is not (only) passed down in someone's genes.
| It is highly environmental and depends on what people do, who
| they talk to, and where and how they live.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Nihilism has nothing to do with either world war. You're
| likely trying to blame Nietzsche, who was the polar opposite
| of a nihilist, for German nationalism. The radical optimist
| Nietzsche, in his old age while writing Ecco homo, disavowed
| his German heritage and spoke about how awesome Poland and
| his polish identity were.
|
| Nihilism is only just now having an impact in the academy as
| it is the intellectual foundation of post modernist and
| critical theory.
| mcmcmc wrote:
| It's also vastly ignorant of the causes of World War I
| which had fuck all to do with nihilism. A radical fighting
| for Bosnian independence assassinated a Hapsburg, and then
| entangling alliances escalated what might've been a
| localized conflict into a world war.
| drowsspa wrote:
| Nihilism leading to the two world wars and opinions being
| coded in the DNA are definitely two of the takes of all time
| drrskino wrote:
| Opinion and perspective are closely tied to cultural
| upbringing which is closely tied to race and ethnicity.
| drrskino wrote:
| We hear about demographics of people and their beliefs
| "dying off" all the time. It does happen.
| rrgok wrote:
| People ready to die often don't care about pushing society
| forward or ensuring the continuation of the human species.
|
| I always ask: for how long? What is the ultimate goal? If you
| don't know, it's time to seek answers before pushing society
| forward carelessly.
| manquer wrote:
| > your opinion will be eliminated from the gene pool
|
| The impulse to die being eliminated from the gene pool is a
| good thing ? Or rather the characteristics to fight for life
| at all costs is what one would want in the gene pool ?
|
| If what you assume is true, at some point people will want to
| die less and the problem will self correct .
|
| Death is important tool in evolution delaying it is not
| argument for it .
| jezzamon wrote:
| How do you reconcile that with many people that attempted
| suicide due to some illness like depression, and then later
| very much we're glad they didn't die. "Only of sound mind"
| sounds difficult to measure.
|
| Related: Majority of gun deaths in the USA are suicides. In the
| gun control debate you might want to exclude those, right? But
| actually having ready access to a way to die increases the
| total number of suicides - it's not that all of those people
| taking their own lives would use different methods of suicide -
| some would but some would never die from suicide at all. So
| it's used as a argument against having easy to access firearms,
| and generally an argument against an easy way for suicide.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| > How do you reconcile that with many people that attempted
| suicide due to some illness like depression
|
| I believe that depression should be treated seriously as a
| mental illness. But treat the _depression_ , and not the
| choices made while depressed (i.e. suicidal ideation, suicide
| attempts), which are symptoms of depression. It's not like we
| treat so seriously any of the _other_ choices made while
| depressed like over /under-eating, alcoholism, impulsive
| purchases, etc.
|
| > So it's used as a argument against having easy to access
| firearms
|
| Personally I believe in restricting access to firearms
| because they are usually used to kill _other_ people. If
| someone wants to use their gun to take their own life, rather
| than take their guns away, I 'd like to spare them and their
| family the mess, and give them a way to die peacefully and
| quietly in a supine position.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| A permanent solution to a temporary problem still leaves the
| problem solved.
| rrgok wrote:
| I usually say "No, death is not the solution, death just
| removes the problem.".
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| What it does is replace your problem with problems for a
| bunch of other people.
| rrgok wrote:
| I don't quite understand this. Postponing my death won't
| solve the problem; it's inevitable. The real question is,
| whose time takes priority--others' or mine?
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| This is a good point. I guess the only counter argument
| is that, so far, in general, postponing elective death
| also leads to a bunch of solutions to other problems over
| the course of a life, even if the original problem is
| unsolvable.
| rrgok wrote:
| People forget that the other problems are created by life
| itself. There is no way out by playing its game. You
| cannot escape the problem making machine by using it: it
| will only produce more problems.
|
| But the truth is that I'm not convinced that death is the
| "the winning move is not playing it". You see death is
| life: in order to die you must be alive first.
|
| That's why lately I'm thinking unconsciousness is the way
| out, but I'm not sure about that too.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| The end of the universe is created by pre-life physics. I
| think it's unknown to humanity at this point whether a
| sufficiently advanced technology can deal with that.
| rrgok wrote:
| What if they change their mind again? Years later, they might
| have a fleeting thought: "I could have died back then."
|
| The point is, the mind changes constantly; it's its nature.
| What should one do?
|
| Personally, I'd rather avoid the rollercoaster of "I'm happy
| I didn't die" and "I should've died."
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Which is why there should be a waiting period.
| TexanFeller wrote:
| > How do you reconcile that with many people that attempted
| suicide due to some illness like depression, and then later
| very much we're glad they didn't die
|
| You don't have to, it's not your business, it's their right
| to make that choice and no one else's. "My body, my choice"
| applies to suicide even more than abortion, if you don't
| control your own life and body you can't call yourself a free
| man.
|
| I disagree with dismissing someone's decision because they
| have a mental illness like depression too. Depression and
| other issues don't always respond to treatment, and even when
| they do it's often after trying different treatments for
| months! I've been through very dark times with depression,
| OCD, and much more. I live a life of luxury now that most of
| the country would envy with a wonderful wife. If I knew I had
| to face a year or too of my past issues again and I would get
| to spend the last 40 years in my wonderful life again
| afterwards I don't think it would be worth suffering like
| that for a year. Some issues like OCD really are that bad. If
| someone with a mental illness wants to die, offer to help,
| but respect their decision if they don't accept.
| rrgok wrote:
| I wholeheartedly support this point of view. Death should be an
| option freely and easily accessibile to anyone.
|
| Why have people here who don't want to be here?
| andai wrote:
| I like to use a metaphor.
|
| You're at a party. You politely say goodbye to everyone and
| start heading for the exit.
|
| You are restrained and drugged.
|
| Nice party, bro...
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| You're at a party. You politely say goodbye to everyone and
| start heading for the exit.
|
| You are restrained and drugged. You are coerced into
| signing euthanasia papers and are swiftly killed.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| In the real world, most people struggle to get permission
| to opt for medical assistance in dying.
|
| Nobody is getting coerced into suicide.
| asynchronous wrote:
| Canada would like a word with you
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| I live in Canada. I also have google.
|
| You are referring to an incident where a caseworker
| mentioned that MAID is an option to a permanently
| disabled veteran suffering from pain, and it was deemed
| out of scope for their job. The policy has now changed so
| that caseworkers are not allowed to even bring up MAID.
| No one was coerced into the option.
|
| The outcome of the incident you are citing is that it is
| now less accessible for people to learn about the option.
|
| Meanwhile there are cases across Canada where people have
| been blocked from getting MAID because of religious
| hospitals, outside objectors, and debates about what kind
| of permanent illness qualifies even if two doctors and
| the patient have all agreed.
|
| The process is not fast, requires psychological
| assessment, and must be signed off by a doctor.
|
| There is precisely no evidence that anyone has ever
| undergone MAID when they weren't 100% consenting and
| having made there own decision.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > I'd like dying to be as easy as flicking a switch.
|
| It is. Just flick the blade open on a switchblade and stab into
| your temple. You don't need a fricking second or third party to
| help you with this.
|
| Some of us atheists view life as more precious than many
| religious people do because this is it.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| > stab
|
| > fricking
|
| Do you really have to be so violent in response?
|
| There exist supervised injection sites for narcotics. You
| bring the drugs, the healthcare workers give you clean
| syringes/needles/paraphernalia and help you with the
| injection. As a society we have decided that it is OK for
| people to potentially wreck their own lives with narcotics.
|
| Why not a similar concept for dying, where the end is only
| eternal oblivion? Step into a room, step inside a pod, press
| a button, pod closes, press another button to replace the air
| with nitrogen, done.
|
| > life as more precious
|
| I'm sorry, but 'life is precious' is a religious view, even
| if you call yourself 'atheist'. Life is just life, it is an
| emergent property of chemical and physical processes and
| laws. It is _interesting_ , to be sure, but precious? Sorry,
| no. Humans have killed each other since they evolved from
| _Australopithecus_ , and have only found more efficient,
| violent, and deadly ways to do so in the intervening five
| million years.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > Do you really have to be so violent in response?
|
| I was trying to meet your request for an option that came
| as close as possible to just flicking a switch.
|
| > Step into a room, step inside a pod, press a button, pod
| closes, press another button to replace the air with
| nitrogen, done.
|
| I know of a friend of a friend who did this on his own. If
| you are of sufficient capacity to step into some place and
| press a button then you are able to buy or make this
| equipment on your own and do it yourself.
|
| > I'm sorry, but 'life is precious' is a religious view,
| even if you call yourself 'atheist'.
|
| And some religious people also believe that taking care of
| Earth's natural environment is also a religious duty. That
| doesn't make it a religious view, it makes it a general
| moral view that is shared between some religions and some
| atheists. The justification for a moral view is what makes
| it religious or secular.
|
| > Humans have killed each other since they evolved from
| Australopithecus
|
| And how many of these deaths have been because of religious
| beliefs? I think enough of them to say that killing people
| for moral reasons is a religious view, even if you call
| yourself 'atheist'.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| No. The tank that can hold enough nitrogen (or helium or
| argon--same volume means the same pressure which means
| effectively the same weight) to do the job reliably is
| heavy. By the time your health is such that you would
| choose that path you likely can't lift it. I have seen my
| wife struggle with lifting that weight when it's in a
| form meant to be lifted. I've seen her fail when it
| wasn't as cooperative.
| Nuzzerino wrote:
| Too bad, I guess that leaves out the "use
| disproportionately large amounts of the agent to hotbox
| the room" method. But that doesn't invalidate the point
| of the parent comment.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Which is completely missing the point. To hotbox a room
| you need a bunch of the big cylinders. Look at the tare
| weights on page 3:
|
| https://www.airgas.com/medias/Airgas-Compressed-Gas-
| Cylinder...
|
| The have a volume in cubic feet specified, multiply by
| the 165 bar that's what's typically used to see how much
| space it will fill. Looking around our house there's a
| very odd-shaped closet under the stairs that would be
| difficult to measure. Of the more typical places the
| smallest room in the house is a closet. 6' x 5' (minus a
| 1' x 1' chunk that I believe contains an air duct) x 8' =
| 232 cubic feet. Suppose you dump 232 cubic feet of
| material into it--you'll displace half the air which
| gives a time of useful consciousness of 20-30 minutes.
| Not good enough. Let's try doubling that, now we end up
| with a time of useful consciousness of 30-60 seconds.
| That's probably enough. That's 2 cylinders at 137 pounds
| each. Or if you use aluminum, 3 cylinders of 90 pounds
| each.
| Nuzzerino wrote:
| Yeah, nobody is seriously suggesting to do that. It was
| an example for the sake of argument.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| That's what white glove delivery is for.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Why are you against religious views?
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Disagree. It should be a considered decision over time.
|
| 1) Is the patient of sound mind when the decision is made? (Not
| necessarily carried out. I have no problem with someone saying
| "kill me when my mind is gone.")
|
| 2) There should be a medical evaluation of whatever the problem
| is with an eye to what can be done to make life more palatable.
|
| 3) There should be a waiting period. (I would, however, say
| that if the person is no longer capable of confirming it that
| should count as confirmation.)
|
| Suicide should only be for when one's remaining life is of
| negative value, not because of temporary bad things.
| Nuzzerino wrote:
| > The belief that life is a gift from a god is a highly
| Christocentric, Western view that I disagree with. We are
| brought into the world without any real consent; we should at
| least be able to easily choose the date, time, and manner of
| our passing if we so desire.
|
| Too bad that's only one of many arguments against euthanasia,
| and one of the easier ones to grandstand against.
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.sh...
| bowsamic wrote:
| As someone with depression, I'm very very very glad that your
| vision is not true
| manfromchicago wrote:
| I greatly offended my mother's psychiatrist once with a similar
| thought. He was using my mother's suicidality as proof that she
| needed inpatient treatment.
|
| I told him - "She suffers from migraines, and for 3 out of 4
| weeks in an average month she must spend the entire day
| immobile in a dark room. There are no treatments in the near
| term which are expected to improve her outlook. The pain is
| debilitating. Doctor, who is "insane" - the person who wants a
| way out of the constant agony, or the person who says "More,
| please!""
|
| I believe that the right to life as enshrined in the
| Constitution (and endowed by my Creator) must, inherently, also
| include the right to end that life, if a man (or woman) so
| chooses.
| timnetworks wrote:
| Someone in the medical profession explained to me what 'do
| everything you can' means to doctors and surgeons, it's a binding
| command. My instructions are likely going to be 'do two things
| that you probably should at this point and then go have lunch'
| Zenzero wrote:
| > Someone in the medical profession explained to me what 'do
| everything you can' means to doctors and surgeons, it's a
| binding command
|
| I've found that usually the people who said that to me were the
| least prepared for what that meant.
| erie wrote:
| It means also that "Do not go gentle into that good night" is not
| realistic most of the time. We have a saying in Arabic that I
| only understood after my father died, it to the effect that
| something is so difficult that:'' it is harder than the spirit
| leaving the body'. I think it is time that hospice care evolve to
| make it easier.
| julianeon wrote:
| I think sometimes these articles don't pose the question all that
| well. The way I would ask it is:
|
| Imagine a pain scale of 1-10; pretend 10 is so high that you die
| from the pain.
|
| Is it worth living at a 7-8 at every moment continuously, to
| extend your life for 2 months? How about living at a 9 for just 2
| more weeks?
|
| If you say "no" that just means you're not hooked up to a machine
| where that's your living experience (not like someone is actively
| killing you).
|
| I think, when you put it that way, it becomes easier to set some
| rules around it. Btw I'm pretty close to someone who would always
| choose to live longer, but even I would say no to, for example,
| living at a 10 of pain for just 1 more week of life.
| Zenzero wrote:
| Doctor here.
|
| This is overly simplistic. There is little to debate about your
| example of living at a 7/8 for 2 months. What is more realistic
| is some hypothetical situation where the average patient has an
| expected survival of 6 to 18 months, with the hope that the 7/8
| pain can be reduced to a 4/5, and with acknowledgement that
| some days may be a score of 5, some days may be a score of 9.
| Then what?
|
| As a provider on the other side of it you witness two similar
| patients take two different paths. Perhaps the first patient
| lives 36 months with pain score averaging a 3. The family will
| often appreciate the intervention and effort. The other patient
| experiences a string of complications and dies after 2 weeks,
| living at a pain score of 10. Their family paints you as an
| evil torturer who should have never been listened to.
|
| In fact you can see both types of opinions in this very thread.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| While I agree he's being too simplistic I think you're not
| getting it, either. You're making the standard error of the
| medical world of focusing too much on stuffing pigeons into
| pigeonholes because once you have found the supposedly
| correct (look at the patients who go to doctor after doctor
| after doctor until someone finally finds the rare issue
| that's the correct diagnosis--and realize that there are
| those who never get answers) pigeonhole you see the
| pigeonhole rather than the patient.
|
| You're looking into that pigeonhole and observing the result
| is anywhere from two weeks of horror to three years of not
| too bad. Just because you can't predict how any given case
| will turn out doesn't mean you can't look at the patients and
| see how things are turning out. And recognize that things are
| not static--your first patient doesn't exist. Things don't
| just sit there at three for three years and then kill you.
| Zenzero wrote:
| > You're making the standard error of the medical world of
| focusing too much on stuffing pigeons into pigeonholes
| because once you have found the supposedly correct (look at
| the patients who go to doctor after doctor after doctor
| until someone finally finds the rare issue that's the
| correct diagnosis--and realize that there are those who
| never get answers) pigeonhole you see the pigeonhole rather
| than the patien
|
| This is another common misunderstanding of why people so
| commonly struggle to get a convincing diagnosis. The
| problem isn't a clueless doctor robotically listening for
| keywords. It's that the doctor has 10 minutes to dedicate
| to you and if it's not in the 80% of straightforward cases
| for them, the patient gets the bare minimum and then
| becomes someone else's problem. To solve that you need to
| fix provider shortages and (in the US) remove the corporate
| overlords constantly applying pressure on the little worker
| bees beneath them.
|
| > out doesn't mean you can't look at the patients and see
| how things are turning out. And recognize that things are
| not static--your first patient doesn't exist. Things don't
| just sit there at three for three years and then kill you.
|
| It's becoming clear to me you have a really odd sense of
| what doctors generally know and don't know. I don't really
| have an interest in exploring the left side of the Dunning
| kruger curve with respect to how medicine works.
| martinpw wrote:
| > Spend your remaining days at home if possible.
|
| This sounds appealing in the abstract but one thing to consider
| is the impact on other family members. My parents had a neighbor
| who chose to remain at home. However that meant his wife also had
| to stay at home to look after him (yes there were nurses who came
| in a couple of times a day, but a lot of the burden was still on
| the wife.) This meant her own life basically shut down. She never
| went out, and spent at least a year fully housebound for his
| care.
|
| Once he died, she was able to go out, reconnect with friends,
| kickstart her life again. Couldn't help feeling the husband's
| choice here was a selfish one.
| scottcorgan wrote:
| No place is rather be than with my spouse in a time like that!
| martinpw wrote:
| I think that's easy to say in the abstract, but the reality
| can be quite different. Of course every case is different,
| but for example:
|
| * Spouse has dementia, does not recognize you, abuses you for
| being an intruder in the house, constantly shouts for help
| all times of day and night.
|
| * Feeding, cleaning (double incontinence).
|
| * Can't go out except for a few minutes when nurses are
| present.
|
| The above goes on for months and even years with no end in
| sight. No chance to go out for exercise, hikes in nature,
| meeting friends. Isolation. At home carers have significantly
| reduced life expectancy for good reason.
|
| Having hospice care where they can be well looked after is
| not a bad option, and is not a sign of weakness or failure
| for a partner.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Dementia is particularly evil.
|
| As far as I'm concerned I am my mind. If my mind is gone my
| body doesn't matter, please don't waste effort in caring
| for it.
| LocalH wrote:
| Humans have long handled death in a very backwards and disgusting
| manner.
|
| We have humans, who can clearly assert a particular desire when
| of sound, lucid mind. Yet we do not allow them to have any
| control over one of the most personal experiences their life will
| ever offer them, when in a medical establishment. We don't allow
| people to assert a desire to be euthanized gently. We force them
| to die on their own (by being unwilling to do anything more than
| remove care), no matter how much they may be suffering. Of
| course, we always have the option of taking matters into our own
| hands, with all the potential stumbling blocks that provides.
|
| In contrast, we have pets, who can not verbally assert any
| particular desire, due to the lack of common language. We can't
| ask them if they want to stay with their loved ones, or if
| they're suffering and want to be free. Yet we make the decision
| to _actively end their lives_ every single day in the world.
|
| Logically, this seems completely backwards to me. It seems like
| we should err on the side of not ending a pet's life when they
| don't want us to, and that we should allow people of sound mind
| to articulate a self-aware desire to have a more dignified,
| gentle death as much as possible.
| jl6 wrote:
| I hope "noble sacrifice" becomes a viable end-of-life option one
| day. Specifically, one-way tickets to Mars, which will be
| invaluable for doing human-led research and construction, paving
| the way for future colonists, but without the expense and burden
| of a return journey.
|
| There must be some ultra-high-risk test pilot jobs available for
| 75 year olds with inoperable diseases. Go out with a bang!
| salzig wrote:
| The author doesn't believe his content is worth reading (full
| page ,,popup"). Good he included this feature so I can leave the
| page early.
| 627467 wrote:
| in this modern day of increased privatized medicine, health
| insurances and self-absorbed people, what is the incentive to let
| a person die?
|
| the longer you keep someone with medical needs and decent
| insurance the more you can milk the their insurance or whatever
| wealth they may have accumulated.
|
| self-absorbed closed ones can also easily dismiss the sick person
| desires and needs.
|
| I see no incentive for this to change.
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