[HN Gopher] New ways to catch gravitational waves
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       New ways to catch gravitational waves
        
       Author : sohkamyung
       Score  : 176 points
       Date   : 2024-06-28 12:41 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
        
       | demondemidi wrote:
       | How does one aim a gravitational wave detector? Or is that not
       | how they work?
        
         | 4ad wrote:
         | Gravitational waves detectors, just like any kind of antennas
         | have anisotropic sensitivity. By having multiple detectors with
         | different orientations you can determine the source of the
         | signal. But you can't aim them, no, at least not any current or
         | planned ones. They are simply too big (many kilometers) and
         | require extreme stiffness.
         | 
         | Everybody knows of LIGO, but it's actually three detectors that
         | work together, LIGO, Virgo, and KAGRA.
        
           | _Microft wrote:
           | There is also a project called GEO600 in Germany that is
           | collaborating with LIGO (and therefore also Virgo/KAGRA).
           | This detector is much smaller though.
           | 
           | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEO600
        
           | BurningFrog wrote:
           | You can also figure out the source direction by when the
           | signal arrives at the different (currently three, on a good
           | day) detectors.
        
         | msarchet wrote:
         | > LIGO can't point to specific locations in space Since LIGO
         | doesn't need to collect light from stars or other objects or
         | regions in space, it doesn't need to be round or dish-shaped
         | like optical telescope mirrors or radio telescope dishes. Nor
         | does it have to be steerable, i.e., able to move around to
         | point in a specific direction. Instead, each LIGO detector
         | consists of two 4 km (2.5 mi.) long, 1.2 m-wide steel vacuum
         | tubes arranged in an "L" shape (LIGO's laser travels through
         | these arms), and enclosed within a 10-foot wide, 12-foot tall
         | concrete structure that protects the tubes from the
         | environment.
         | 
         | > A mirror at the vertex of the arms splits a single light beam
         | into two, directing each beam down an arm of the instrument
         | Mirrors at the ends of the arms reflect the beams back to their
         | origin point where they are recombined to create an
         | interference pattern called 'fringe
         | 
         | https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/what-is-ligo
         | 
         | https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/ligos-ifo
        
         | sithadmin wrote:
         | Intuitively, it would seem that one wouldn't 'aim' a
         | gravitational wave detector. The inputs are omnidirectional,
         | and direction-finding would be accomplished by triangulation
         | based on an array of detectors.
        
         | serial_dev wrote:
         | You can't aim our current grav wave detectors. In a very
         | simplified form, it's two very long tubes with laser in it, you
         | aren't pointing these buildings like you could do with even
         | very large telescopes.
         | 
         | The detectors have different sensitivity depending on the
         | direction of the waves, so if a wave comes from a "bad"
         | direction (perpendicular to both arms, e.g. directly from
         | above), a particular detector might not detect anything, even
         | if the wave is strong.
         | 
         | This is why (amongst many other reasons) it's important to have
         | multiple detectors around the world (e.g LIGO has two locations
         | in the US, you also have Virgo in Italy, and they do
         | collaborate), this way you can assure in theory that you can
         | "see" every wave, no matter which direction it's coming from.
         | 
         | (AFAIK).
        
           | throwawaymaths wrote:
           | Having only two detectors was always a sketchy affair given
           | the tremendous amount of filtering done by the teams. Now
           | with three detectors, if the correlataed event count between
           | pairs of detectors doesn't diminish from one detector events
           | with the same ratio as from 2-3 detectors (high school
           | statistics), then we will know that event detection is real.
        
           | pwatsonwailes wrote:
           | Pretty spot on.
        
           | simcop2387 wrote:
           | > The detectors have different sensitivity depending on the
           | direction of the waves, so if a wave comes from a "bad"
           | direction (perpendicular to both arms, e.g. directly from
           | above), a particular detector might not detect anything, even
           | if the wave is strong.
           | 
           | Unless there's such a thing as polarized gravitational waves,
           | https://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-O1StochNonGR/ which
           | might exist but are hard to discern with current detectors
           | from what I understand. It'd be really cool to learn that
           | there's such a thing as vector and scalar polarized
           | gravitional waves.
        
         | butterNaN wrote:
         | Similar discussion elsewhere on the internet:
         | https://einsteinathome.org/content/how-can-they-aim-ligo
        
         | jfengel wrote:
         | A gravitational wave moves at the speed of light. So if you
         | compare arrival times from several widely-spaced detectors, you
         | can get a pretty good idea of what direction the wave came
         | from.
         | 
         | Even a single detector has two arms at 90 degrees to each
         | other, which can give you a rough idea of where in the sky it
         | came from. But now that we have multiple detectors online we
         | get better and better about spotting the origin.
        
         | akira2501 wrote:
         | It's a triangulation problem. As long as the two detectors are
         | perpendicular with each other you can triangulate the source of
         | the signal received by both of them.
        
       | andsens wrote:
       | Now that's the kind of clickbait title I can get behind!
        
       | nudgeee wrote:
       | I'm amazed there was no mention of LISA [0] -- a space-based
       | gravitational wave detector using 3 satellites flying in
       | formation 2.5 million Km apart! Seriously cool engineering,
       | planning to launch in 2035.
       | 
       | [0]
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Interferometer_Space_A...
        
         | shellac wrote:
         | It is mentioned:
         | 
         | > ...Researchers are now working on several next-generation
         | LIGO-type observatories, both on Earth and, in space, the Laser
         | Interferometer Space Antenna;...
        
           | nudgeee wrote:
           | Ooof missed that, thanks!
        
         | jjk166 wrote:
         | LISA is mentioned in the 6th paragraph.
        
         | cubefox wrote:
         | > LISA was first proposed as a mission to ESA in the early
         | 1990s.
         | 
         | I remember reading about LISA when I was a little kid. Back
         | then it was projected to launch in the far future of 2015. Now
         | I would be surprised if it actually launches in 2035.
        
           | ajford wrote:
           | The university I studied at had a Gravitational Wave center
           | under the Physics dept, and all the professors would joke
           | about how LISA had been "less than a decade away" for 20
           | years.
        
       | gadilif wrote:
       | So, going from a very narrow frequency band (up to 1000Hz) to a
       | much wider range, which can theoretically encode information
       | (e.g. frequency modulation)... Hmm, I'm wondering if comms over
       | gravity is something a sufficiently advanced civilization might
       | consider using, and should we be looking for that 'Hello, world'
       | in some 'natural frequency' like we're doing for EM radiation?
        
         | serial_dev wrote:
         | If we are going all in on imaginary civilizations, even a very
         | narrow (well, not that narrow) frequency band could be used to
         | encode information, couldn't they?
        
           | gadilif wrote:
           | Yes, but not efficiently (it will be very slow) and will be
           | hard to detect because of noise (the article mentions the
           | 'cacophony' of gravity noise). This is similar to EM
           | radiation, so, you do frequency modulation (or amplitude, but
           | that seems harder with gravity - you'll need to modify
           | mass...), so you have a base high frequency on top of which
           | you add lower frequency. The substraction later gives you a
           | clean signal (or, Gravity Radio).
        
             | vbezhenar wrote:
             | Will you distinguish it from noise? Surely those will be
             | compressed and encrypted.
        
               | gadilif wrote:
               | Some of it, definitely. But if the purpose is to seek
               | others and announce yourself (like we did with Voyager 1
               | and 2), then you'll want it to be plain. Also - Public
               | radio transmissions are not encrypted (as your purpose is
               | to have as many listeners as possible... You monetize on
               | ads).
        
         | BurningFrog wrote:
         | I can't really imagine how such a transmitter works?
         | 
         | Somehow moving planet sized objects around to create gravity
         | waves?
         | 
         | Of course, the cop-out "using their advanced tech we don't have
         | a clue about" answer could actually be correct.
        
           | vbezhenar wrote:
           | Create tiny black holes and throw them into each other.
        
         | qual wrote:
         | I'm not sure I see what the advantages of communicating this
         | way would be. The amount of energy required per bit transmitted
         | would be astounding.
         | 
         | I feel like, while theoretically possible, it's pretty much all
         | downsides and no upsides. At least for communication purposes.
         | 
         | However, your comment reminded me of an interesting PBS Space
         | Time episode discussing the possibility of finding alien
         | civilizations via the gravitational waves produced by their
         | massive ships accelerating to near light speed.
         | 
         | https://www.pbs.org/video/could-ligo-find-massive-alien-spac...
        
           | gadilif wrote:
           | Thanks for the PBS reference, interesting! As to the energy
           | required, well, yes, I guess manipulating huge masses will be
           | costly, but, if there is an efficient way to do this, then
           | gravity waves are a parallel plane of communication. The
           | analogy I heard once is about tribes communicating with smoke
           | signals, while the air around them is filled with radio
           | waves. Maybe we can't hear anyone out there because we're not
           | listening to the right thing...
        
           | colmmacc wrote:
           | The medium is the message. If we detected a modulated signal
           | in gravitational waves, it would be like an Iron Age tribe
           | receiving a 100 foot tall perfectly polished stainless steel
           | statue with ornate inscriptions and pictograms. It would be
           | recognizable and within our conception, but it would also be
           | a demonstration of development and access to resources beyond
           | our imagination. That's the upside. In a galaxy of sparse and
           | sparingly advanced civilizations, the message might be "fear
           | us and stay away" in a way that EM would not convey.
        
             | qual wrote:
             | > _it would also be a demonstration of development and
             | access to resources beyond our imagination. That 's the
             | upside [...] In a galaxy of sparse and sparingly advanced
             | civilizations, the message might be "fear us and stay away"
             | in a way that EM would not convey._
             | 
             | I think you've hit the crux the question. If there are only
             | a few civilizations, I agree, that'd be an awe-inspiring
             | deterrent.
             | 
             | However, if you don't know how many civilizations there are
             | that are similarly advanced to your own, sending out a big
             | "we're here!" message may be quite risky.
             | 
             | In terms of game theory, it's a sequential and incomplete
             | information game. I think the smartest decision is to
             | remain quiet.
        
               | rvba wrote:
               | I think the UN should force nations to remain quiet. Srop
               | the signals that can be stopped, especially the ones
               | designed to go far.
        
           | Larrikin wrote:
           | Maybe that is the filter. If your society hasn't figured out
           | the tech to do it efficiently, the rest of the galaxy doesn't
           | care about what you have to say.
        
             | kimbernator wrote:
             | I've always been a bit confused about the idea that an
             | advanced civilization would be uninterested in us because
             | we've "only" reached the ability to communicate via radio
             | waves. We're either a threat or an ally to these other
             | civilizations, and if you were them and you detected a
             | society that was clearly on course to eventually catch up,
             | it would be in your best interest to treat them like one of
             | those things ASAP so you can have a hand in their
             | development.
             | 
             | To me it feels most likely that our signals just have not
             | had enough time to get to them.
        
               | qual wrote:
               | I think the "dark forest hypothesis" can apply here.
               | 
               | The advanced alien civilization may indeed be interested
               | in us, but still not consider it their best interest to
               | act as soon as possible.
               | 
               | If they decide to act, other civilizations (perhaps even
               | more advanced) may decide to intervene in some way. A
               | civilization that decides to reach out (in a friendly or
               | hostile way) _also_ reveals their own location in the
               | universe.
               | 
               | The most risk adverse choice is probably to remain quiet,
               | especially if they are millennia ahead of us
               | technologically.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_forest_hypothesis
        
           | pitaj wrote:
           | You can detect gravitational waves based on the strain
           | (amplitude) directly, rather than relying on intensity like
           | electromagnetism.
           | 
           | Because the amplitude is inversely proportional to the
           | distance, but intensity is inversely proportional to the
           | distance squared, this could allow for communication over
           | longer distances.
        
           | adrianN wrote:
           | The upside is that space is quite transparent for
           | gravitational waves.
        
           | supportengineer wrote:
           | What would a gravitational wave generator look like? A
           | machine to "wiggle" an asteroid, or say a moon? What if you
           | made a huge array of small machines that "wiggle", say, a
           | bowling ball, in perfect sync.
        
             | nyssos wrote:
             | In principle, almost anything: any system of masses will
             | emit gravitational waves with an intensity proportional to
             | its mass quadrupole moment (which may be 0, as it is for
             | rotationally symmetric systems). But the proportionality
             | constant is _extremely_ small. Realistically you 're
             | looking at stellar-mass objects, if not larger.
        
             | randomname93857 wrote:
             | Nah, asteroid is not enough. you'd need to wiggle a couple
             | or more large black holes in super close proximity. But who
             | knows, may there be alternatives we are not aware of? Is it
             | Higgs boson that gravitational field carrier particle ,
             | similar to electrons for EM field? Maybe there is a way to
             | mass-produce those and modulate gravity waves that way, eh
             | ?
        
           | floxy wrote:
           | >I'm not sure I see what the advantages of communicating this
           | way would be.
           | 
           | Gravitational waves might be the best way to communicate
           | between our world and the dark matter world/dark sector?
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_sector
           | 
           | ...or maybe there is a lower noise floor for gravitational
           | wave comms?
           | 
           | >The amount of energy required per bit transmitted would be
           | astounding.
           | 
           | Has someone calculated this out? Or is it more of a "well we
           | need an exceedingly sensitive instrument to detect some of
           | the most energetic events in the universe from half-a galaxy
           | away" gut-feel? Any reason something like a phased-array for
           | directional comms / beam forming wouldn't work with
           | gravitational waves?
        
             | qual wrote:
             | > _Has someone calculated this out? Or is it more of a
             | "well we need an exceedingly sensitive instrument to detect
             | some of the most energetic events in the universe from
             | half-a galaxy away" gut-feel?_
             | 
             | I was thinking about the energy required to transmit the
             | gravitational waves, not receive them. Being able to move
             | objects massive enough (stellar mass or more) to create
             | detectable gravitational waves in a quick and precise
             | enough manner to allow for communication would require
             | mind-boggling amounts of energy.
        
               | floxy wrote:
               | Right, sorry I wasn't clear. If you were more interested
               | in "local" communications, and less interested in
               | broadcasting to the rest of the cosmos, do you still need
               | gigantic amounts of energy at the transmitter? And how
               | much power would you need, even if the energy is
               | relatively high? For low power transmissions, what is the
               | limiting factor on the receiving end? Or why can't you
               | detect really low power transmissions? Can't get your
               | receiver close enough to absolute zero, so thermal
               | fluctuations kill receiver sensitivity? Background
               | gravitation noise floor is too high across the band?
               | Quantum fluctuations are a limiting factor? Can't make an
               | X-ray/gamma-ray interferometer? "Antenna" size scales
               | with length rather than area? Other?
               | 
               | I suppose the ratio of Coulomb's constant to the
               | gravitation constant (or something similar) govern the
               | relative difficulty in using gravitational vs. EM? But
               | that's not obvious to me that it would make gravitational
               | wave communications inefficient in absolute terms.
        
               | qual wrote:
               | Oh, yeah sorry, I was thinking more along the lines of
               | inter-galaxy communications!
               | 
               | I definitely do not know enough about the topic to
               | approach answering your questions, but I'd certainly be
               | interested in knowing the answers. I really hadn't
               | thought about it in that context.
        
         | brianjlogan wrote:
         | Since gravitational waves would still be restricted to the
         | speed of light what would the benefit be?
         | 
         | Would "obstacles" be circumvented? I would think interference
         | would still be possible but instead of line of sight it would
         | be large gravitational distortions (black hole, stars).
         | 
         | Humility clause: I don't know what I'm talking about.
        
         | fsmv wrote:
         | This idea was featured in The Three Body Problem trilogy.
         | 
         | The problem is modulating the signal. The only way is to move
         | large masses quickly.
        
         | imoverclocked wrote:
         | Lots of naysayers but I can think of one very valid reason this
         | might be the case. Our species, and many species on our planet,
         | can see a very narrow band of the radiation spectrum. It's
         | possible an advanced civilization never developed that but was
         | instead far more intimate with gravitational energy instead. We
         | are talking about the universe after all.
        
         | jimbokun wrote:
         | Did you read Death's End by Cixin Liu?
        
         | elihu wrote:
         | "Zorlax the mighty would like to connect on LinkedIn"
         | 
         | https://xkcd.com/1642/
        
       | ape4 wrote:
       | This made (very lay-person) me wonder if you could detect quantum
       | wave function events.
       | 
       | https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/275556/can-you-d...
        
       | captainkrtek wrote:
       | Just a plug that you can tour the LIGO facilities for free! I
       | visited a couple years ago and got a tour of the Hanford
       | facility, included a lecture beforehand as well. Really awesome
       | people and got to tour the entire facility, even going to the
       | control room.
       | 
       | https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/WA/page/lho-public-tours
        
         | freeqaz wrote:
         | The only dates available are during DEFCON. I would so love to
         | go sometime though! Thanks for sharing -- this made my morning.
        
           | captainkrtek wrote:
           | I'd highly recommend it if you get the time, was an excellent
           | tour to geek out on. Enjoy DEFCON!
        
         | dudinax wrote:
         | If you go to LIGO Hanford don't miss the B reactor tour near
         | by. It's the first full scale nuclear reactor.
        
       | mrlonglong wrote:
       | It's entirely possible if it's extremely sensitive to detect the
       | waves given off by alcubierrie warp drives crisscrossing the
       | galaxies.
        
       | cypherpunks01 wrote:
       | I was surprised that the article doesn't mention LISA at all. I
       | had thought that's the next stage gravitational wave detector on
       | the horizon?
       | 
       | https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/LISA_f...
        
         | qual wrote:
         | It's mentioned both in the article, and in the comments here
         | where someone else thought it isn't mentioned.
         | 
         | They didn't use the acronym ("LISA"), but instead spelled out
         | the entire thing.
         | 
         | > _Researchers are now working on several next-generation LIGO-
         | type observatories, both on Earth and, in space, the Laser
         | Interferometer Space Antenna; [...]_
        
       | tea-coffee wrote:
       | Any physicists in here that could layout a path of going from
       | rudimentary first year level physics knowledge to being able to
       | understand on a deeper level topics such as gravitational waves?
       | 
       | These articles are interesting but are very abstract when you do
       | not have knowledge from first principles.
        
       | openrisk wrote:
       | Something already lost in the twisted passages of history is that
       | the first generation of gravitational wave detectors was of an
       | entirely different design than the current interferometers [1].
       | It never worked and Weber's claim to have detected gravitational
       | waves from SN1987A in 1987, was widely discredited...
       | 
       | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber_bar
        
       | umvi wrote:
       | Probably a dumb question, but... is it basically proven then that
       | gravity doesn't exist (it's effects are just a result of
       | spacetime's geometry?). Because it seems like these gravitational
       | waves experiments show that spacetime exists and has measurable
       | geometry. Yet every time quantum mechanics comes up everyone
       | talks about how we haven't found the gravity force carrier yet
       | which doesn't make sense to me if gravity doesn't exist and is a
       | consequence of the geometry of spacetime.
        
         | mati365 wrote:
         | Isn't space gravity carrier itself? Something like the water
         | that has waves?
        
           | simcop2387 wrote:
           | I believe they're referring to the idea of a gravitational
           | force carrying particle, like photons for electromagnetism,
           | W/Z bosons for the weak force, and gluons for the strong
           | force. Typically this gets called a graviton but they've
           | never been observed and the theories predicting them as far
           | as I know don't predict that we can detect them in any
           | meaningful/practical way right now which is also one of the
           | problems for issues with a quantum theory of gravity.
           | 
           | I've always wondered (but not done the research/reading) on
           | how that would mesh with black holes since you'd need
           | gravitons to escape to mediate the curvature of space-time
           | but that'd seemingly (to me) require them to be able to
           | either ignore the curvature of space-time or travel faster
           | than the speed of light in order to do so. And I believe that
           | those two options there are actually mathematically
           | equivalent as far as the consequences of things go.
        
             | superposeur wrote:
             | This question isn't actually anything to do with quantum
             | mechanics. One can already ask, for GR, can a gravity wave
             | generated by a wiggling object that has already passed the
             | event horizon propagate back out through the event horizon?
             | The answer from gr is unambiguously no. Effectively, all
             | complicated goings-on inside the black hole are washed out
             | into just a couple parameters for an outside observer:
             | total mass, total charge, total angular momentum. All the
             | matter contained by the black hole _does_ still make its
             | gravitational effect felt on outside objects through these
             | three parameters.
             | 
             | This observation in fact is what inspired wheeler to ask
             | his grad student bekenstein what then happens to the
             | entropy of a cup of tea thrown into the black hole -- how
             | to reconcile with 2nd law of thermo. Which in turn was the
             | start of the very long story of black hole thermodynamics.
        
           | atombender wrote:
           | That would suggest space is "made of" something, so what
           | would that be? If it's made of something, how is that
           | "carrying" the wave, causing it to distort in the presence of
           | mass?
        
         | simcop2387 wrote:
         | So I want to try to answer what I can, despite being a layman
         | on this.
         | 
         | Gravity exists, it manifests as the warping/geometry of space.
         | This is in contrast to the other fundamental forces which get
         | explained via Quantum Field Theory. That's the very high level
         | difference of the two, our current understanding of gravity
         | does not work the same way as the way everything else does, and
         | so far we can't find a provable theory (yet) that makes the two
         | work together at all scales.
         | 
         | String theory purported as a way to create a quantum theory of
         | gravity and explain everything else, but my understanding is
         | that it's fallen out of favor because it mostly turned into a
         | tunable mathematical framework that could just change to fit
         | any observations that were made, so it doesn't have the same
         | kind of predictive power that people want (i.e. too much
         | freedom so it can be used to explain anything, not just
         | everything). I believe this is where predictions about a
         | possible gravitational force carrier generally come from, aka
         | the graviton.
         | 
         | Then there's theories like Loop Quantum Gravity, where the way
         | it works is that space-time itself is quantized and that's how
         | you get things to mesh because you can now use the same wave-
         | function style of things that all other quantum theories use.
         | Though I _think_ this doesn 't predict much about a quantum
         | field for gravity on it's own.
         | 
         | I believe one of the other things that runs into everything
         | being difficult is that with relativity you end up with a lot
         | of infinities in the equations and results and so there's a
         | "new" kind of math for it that gets called "renormalization"
         | that prevents them from coming out but it also has issues when
         | translating between quantum theories and relativity.
        
           | nyssos wrote:
           | > it doesn't have the same kind of predictive power that
           | people want (i.e. too much freedom so it can be used to
           | explain anything, not just everything).
           | 
           | That's the popsci version that's been disseminated, yes. It's
           | not exactly wrong, but it's misleading.
           | 
           | First a bit of background. Quantum field theories like the
           | standard model are _effective_ theories, not fundamental
           | ones. We know we don 't know the real high-energy physics, so
           | we treat it as a black box and loosely speaking "average it
           | out" as a new free parameter. This is analogous to how an
           | engineer designing a bridge can ignore the fact that iron has
           | a crystal structure and treat it as a continuum with bulk
           | properties like tensile strength. In reality this having a
           | particular tensile strength is a _state_ , not an intrinsic
           | property, and you could end up with a different tensile
           | strength if you melted the iron and let it resolidify (I'm
           | not a metallurgist, substitute some other material if that's
           | not true for iron), but we can build bridges without knowing
           | that.
           | 
           | In the same way, Standard Model is a particular form of
           | "solidified" string theory. It's true that there are many,
           | many, many others, but they're not _free_ parameters in the
           | same way. You can write down perfectly reasonable looking
           | quantum field theories that string theory can 't produce, and
           | if our best effective theory was one of them then we would
           | have good reason to reject string theory. But it's not.
           | 
           | So the situation we're in is that we have some solid
           | material, and we want to know what a single molecule of it
           | looks like, but we can't see anything other than the bulk
           | properties. What the "string theory is unfalsifiable" crowd
           | is demanding is that whatever molecule we predict have only a
           | few possible crystal structures. And maybe it does. That
           | would be convenient. But sometimes nature inconveniences us:
           | it might be some crazy carbon allotrope. It might be glass.
        
         | superposeur wrote:
         | These experiments confirm the _classical_ theory of gravity,
         | which is Einstein's general relativity, just as Maxwell's
         | equations are the classical theory of the electromagnetic
         | field. Just as Maxwell's equations are perfectly adequate for
         | waves of macroscopic intensity, GR is perfectly adequate for
         | astrophysical gravity waves.
         | 
         | A whole separate question is what is the quantum mechanical
         | theory that has general relativity as its classical limit? For
         | electromagnetism, quantum electrodynamics (understood in the
         | 40's) is the quantized version of Maxwell's and predicts that
         | electromagnetic energy measurement outcomes come in "chunks"
         | (photons). But, although much is known about features of
         | "quantum gravity" (like that gravitons will be massless, spin
         | 2), there is famously no consensus yet about the precise
         | theory.
         | 
         | As to how to reconcile the force carrier picture with spacetime
         | picture -- even classically one can consider an "overall"
         | spacetime background geometry such as that created by the whole
         | earth. Then consider little ripples perturbing this background.
         | Gravitons are these little ripples turned on a quantized amount
         | (heuristically). How the overall background itself gets formed
         | as an "enormous pile of gravitons" will depend on the precise
         | theory of quantum gravity. String theory does have a partial
         | answer to this so can model such things as black holes
         | quantumly.
        
         | akira2501 wrote:
         | We have two systems of physics. We can make predictions using
         | either system. We cannot fully unify the two systems.
        
       | cletus wrote:
       | I just want to add something about how sensitive LIGO is. The
       | gravity waves it is detecting are equivalent to measuring the
       | distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri with a variation the width
       | of a human hair.
       | 
       | Anyway, these techniques are aimed at detecting different types
       | of gravitational waves, not necessarily about simply increasing
       | sensitivity. I don't know what dictates the frequency of a
       | gravitational wave.
       | 
       | Truth be told, I still don't get what expanding space or
       | gravitational waves really are but then again I'm just an idiot
       | who doesn't understand tractor calculus [1].
       | 
       | [1]:
       | https://www.math.auckland.ac.nz/mathwiki/images/c/cf/Staffor...
        
         | strangattractor wrote:
         | If one takes the width of the plow or seeder one is tractoring
         | and divide the length of the field by that width one will get
         | the number of times the tractor goes back and forth across the
         | field to completely seed or plow it.
         | 
         | If the tractor travels at constant velocity V_tractor m/s and
         | multiplies by the width of the plow or seeder and the time in
         | seconds the tractor took to plow or seed the field one gets the
         | total area of the field expressed in meters^2. This can be
         | extended to a tractor traveling at V(t) if infinitesimal units
         | dt of area are summed.
         | 
         | This is known as the Fundamental Theorem of Tractor Calculus
         | and is the basis of Tractor Field Theory;)
        
       | consumer451 wrote:
       | I just learned of a new proposal to use an already planned probe,
       | as a gravitational wave detector. Maybe I am missed it, but this
       | does not appear to be covered in TFA.
       | 
       | > Bridging the micro-Hz gravitational wave gap via Doppler
       | tracking with the Uranus Orbiter and Probe Mission: Massive black
       | hole binaries, early universe signals and ultra-light dark matter
       | 
       | https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.02306
       | 
       | > Practically Free Primordial Gravitational Waves Detector
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfOxNJvSvf4
        
       | westurner wrote:
       | - "Kerr-enhanced optical spring for next-generation gravitational
       | wave detectors" (2024)
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39957123
       | 
       | - "Physicists Have Figured Out a Way to Measure Gravity on a
       | Quantum Scale" with a superconducting magnetic trap made out of
       | Tantalum (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39495482
        
       | ImageXav wrote:
       | A more niche but nonetheless interesting method that I was hoping
       | to see discussed was magnetism. Gravitational waves are expected
       | to decay into photons in intense magnetic fields. Or so I was
       | told by one of my physics professors back in the day. I did
       | understand the math somewhat back then, but it is beyond me now.
       | It does however seem as though some people are still exploring
       | this avenue [0].
       | 
       | [0]
       | https://indico.cern.ch/event/1074510/contributions/4519384/a....
        
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