[HN Gopher] The loneliness of the low-ranking tennis player
___________________________________________________________________
The loneliness of the low-ranking tennis player
Author : jgwil2
Score : 158 points
Date : 2024-06-27 17:23 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| chasebank wrote:
| Andre Agassi spent the 9th most time as #1 tennis player in the
| world and in his book, Open, he says multiple times how lonely of
| a sport tennis is. I think the loneliness of tennis affects the
| whole spectrum of the ranks, not just the bottom.
|
| FWIW, Open is one of my favorite books and a very easy read if
| you're interested.
| mattw2121 wrote:
| Open is a great book and so is "You Cannot Be Serious".
| jakub_g wrote:
| There's a few references specifically to Agassi a few times in
| this writeup
|
| > Andre Agassi was lonely but never alone, players on the
| Futures tour are both.
| throw0101b wrote:
| _Vox_ had a video a few months ago, "Why most tennis players
| struggle to make a living":
|
| * https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/9/12/23870760/tennis-wages-s...
|
| One anecdote: one ranked player made more money restringing other
| players's rackets than actually competing.
| jakub_g wrote:
| From the original article in the thread:
|
| > Those "rich fucks" kept Johnny on the road, mind, as he
| offered a racket-stringing service to players. Johnny has
| claimed he's the only player ever to make a consistent living
| on the Futures tour, and he kept overheads low, running the
| school bus on vegetable oil. More recently, he has been making
| YouTube videos about "extreme couponing", where he lists the
| great savings he has made on his weekly grocery shop.
| optimalsolver wrote:
| Is it true that "You're not worthy to restring my racket" is a
| popular insult in tennis circles?
| ore0s wrote:
| Nope, this isn't Downton Abbey. The further you go in
| competitive tennis, the tighter the community gets. Also,
| playing tennis and stringing rackets are two distinct
| skillsets. For elite players the strings are just as crucial
| as the racket itself. Check out this interview with the
| stringer who traveled the globe with Federer for 15 years,
| ensuring he had nine freshly strung rackets for each match.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sRSqSupzyM
| carabiner wrote:
| Most olympians too, even medalists:
| https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2020/02/24/su...
|
| Once at Mammoth in the locker room, I overheard a family
| mentioning how they bought US olympic ski team jackets from the
| olympians themselves.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Not really sure how this is much different from any consultant
| who does long projects on the road, at least as far as social
| isolation is concerned, really. You go to work, you do a job, and
| then you go back to the hotel. What I suspect is happening on top
| of everything else for these players is that (a) they're in a
| competitive field so they have to stay on top of their rest and
| diet at all times, (b) isolation is definitely a thing, but (c)
| many of them come from upper middle class backgrounds and it's a
| culture shock to bleed through money just to travel for
| tournaments and have proper gear.
| p1esk wrote:
| The difference is: consultants are expected to get paid after
| they complete the job, tennis players lose a lot more matches
| on average than they win so they usually do not get paid.
| fallinditch wrote:
| I understand that the actual playing the matches is very
| isolating too: there may be a crowd of people watching the 2
| players but it's just them on the court battling it out. The
| intensity of the battle and its psychological components
| probably adds to the isolation on the court, and loneliness off
| it.
| alexpotato wrote:
| A family acquaintance of mine was a consultant with an
| interesting work/life balance:
|
| - He had no permanent physical residence aka he didn't own a
| house or rent an apartment (he did have a PO Box in a city just
| for a legal address)
|
| - Everything he owned was in 4 suitcases
|
| - Other than scheduled PTO, the firm decided where he would go
| for consulting projects (often on short notice) which could be
| anywhere in the world
|
| - When he DID have PTO, the firm would pay for ANYTHING he
| wanted to do. Rent a speedboat? Check! Fly him to Asia to see a
| friend? Check!
|
| He had a girlfriend (who I was friends with and how I knew him)
| so I don't think he was totally isolated. That being said, must
| be tough to put down roots in that situation.
| asdff wrote:
| Well, consultants also have marketable skills that don't depend
| on them fighting aging and injury and are actually making money
| on the road vs going into debt potentially with nothing to show
| for it. I'd say that helps one sleep easy and not feel so
| constantly anxious.
| et-al wrote:
| > _they 're in a competitive field so they have to stay on top
| of their rest and diet at all times_
|
| Versus a consultant where you're racking up miles and points,
| have a per diem, and usually treated to a client dinner and/or
| sports game. Personally I enjoyed traveling for work when I was
| young and single. Depending on the hotel you're staying at, you
| can meet other traveling workers and commiserate.
| p1esk wrote:
| In pro tennis only the top 100 players actually make more money
| than they spend.
| xmprt wrote:
| To be fair, the same could be said about a lot of gamers.
| People spend $1000+ on a gaming PC and even if they enjoy
| playing competitively, most of them never go pro. I wonder if
| pro tennis is a case of people not wanting to go pro or not
| being able to go pro.
|
| Edit: I think a handful of people are misunderstanding my
| point. I'm saying that not everything has to have a monetary
| return on investment. Even if the "opportunity cost" of
| spending all that time grinding is super high, the return is
| just the enjoyment that one gets from playing the game or from
| feeling accomplished to reach a certain goal/rank even if it's
| not pro level.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| $1000k on a gaming pc is an extremely small investment
| compared to the time spent training to be competitive at
| anything.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| If it were just $1000, it would be a bargain. The real cost
| is the opportunity cost of grinding and never making it.
| tpurves wrote:
| $1000 could be less than the costs of just flights to one
| weekend tennis tournament which, because of seeding, you're
| highly likely to go out in the first round as a low ranked
| player.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| This may have been true at one time, but it is not true now.
| 128 players qualify for the first round of each of the four
| major tournaments and for each, the players have a guaranteed
| payday even if they lose in the first round. For the 128 who
| qualify for the US Open, players will get over $80k for just
| playing the first round, even if they lose.
|
| For example, the 101st ranked ATP (men) player has made over
| $450k from prize money in just a little over half of this
| season. The 102nd ranked player has made over $330k so far.
| Considering that there are two more majors left this year which
| they'll likely qualify for, they'll likely make another several
| hundred thousand more at-least this year from just competition.
|
| Many of the top 150 tennis players often make the equivalent
| amount to their prize money or greater in sponsorships. The
| lack of sustainable income from just competition becomes more
| true once you look outside the top 150.
|
| The low ranking tennis players that the article referred to
| were outside the top 300, which meant that they were stuck
| playing the futures tournaments where there is little
| possibility for money. Conor Niland, who wrote the article,
| only briefly achieved a career high ranking of 129, but spent
| most of his career ranked outside of the top 300.
|
| https://www.atptour.com/en/players/luca-van-assche/v0dz/over...
|
| https://www.atptour.com/en/players/yoshihito-nishioka/n732/o...
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| $330k would be good for an individual with a desk job, but
| when you factor in the other costs to run the "enterprise" of
| a tennis player, what does the take home look like?
|
| IE how much does a tennis coach cost? Travel and lodging for
| tournaments. I'm assuming they might have a medical expert or
| nutritionist on the staff as well?
| TeaBrain wrote:
| 330k is his earnings from only a little over half of the
| season. It is probably only half of earnings this year
| also, considering that an equal amount is likely made from
| sponsorships, given that Yoshihito is Japan's second
| highest ranking ATP player. Top 150 players usually have
| separate sponsorships for both clothing and racquets. A
| quick search reveals Yoshihito has brand ties to Yonex,
| Morinaga & Company, Miki House and AFH.
| navane wrote:
| 330k good for a deskjob is quite an understatement
| p1esk wrote:
| The problem is it is different 128 in each major, and the
| overlap across all four majors in a year is significantly
| less than 100. People move up and down the rankings a lot. To
| actually make a living you need to be consistently in the top
| 100, year after year. Your two examples are both very good
| players who spent most of the last 6 months well inside of
| top 100: in Feb, van Assche was #68 and Nishioka was #47. Of
| course they did well. Look at those who spent the last 12
| months outside of top 100, and remember that total expenses
| of tour life can get as high as $20k/mo.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| The players that compete in each of the majors does not
| vary that widely. The most points come from the higher
| tiered tournaments and to get into the higher tiered
| tournaments, a player has to have a higher amount of
| points, which grants the player direct entry, which is how
| most players get into tournaments. The only alternatives to
| get into tournaments are entry by wildcard or qualification
| via a qualification tournament, each of which only grants
| entry to a small minority of players in any given
| tournament. For the US Open, the top 101 ATP ranking spots
| are given direct entry. As I mentioned, ranking spots are
| largely self-reinforcing, so the entries do not vary
| considerably. Also, players outside the top 100 are not
| spending $20k per month to tour. That is a wildly
| inaccurate even for most players inside the top 100.
| naveen99 wrote:
| They should probably unionize like nba players. nba players
| beyond the top 100 make 10 times more.
| timdellinger wrote:
| Ironically enough, professional pickleball players today are
| making more money than WNBA players and more money than most of
| the folks that this article talks about.
| antisthenes wrote:
| I would bet most of the money comes from endorsing and peddling
| selling pieces of plastic for $249, when they cost $10 to make
| in China, not from actual tournament winnings.
| office_drone wrote:
| Yes, articles on Ben Johns suggest his income is 5% winnings
| and 95% endorsements.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| I don't understand why these people are continuing to try to play
| tennis professionally when the odds of them making something
| resembling a living wage seems so grim. Like, after a few years
| of trying it's got to be obvious.
|
| The author here mentions his parents pushing him and his sister
| to do this. Is the low key story that these are mostly just old
| money children in a limbo of their parents' whims and lifelines?
| p1esk wrote:
| It's similar to wanting to start your own company: the odds to
| succeed are grim.
| generic92034 wrote:
| Or surviving as a book author, or making it as an
| actor/actress in Hollywood, or ... - they simply have a dream
| and it is quite hard to find the right timing for giving up
| such dreams.
| Miraste wrote:
| Succeeding as an author, actor, or tennis player is a much
| greater challenge than starting a company. There are
| millions and millions of companies succeeding well enough
| to keep their owners afloat. The chances for creative
| careers and professional sports, meanwhile, are abysmal.
| pineaux wrote:
| This is not true. The odds of becoming a unicorn are grim.
| The odds of getting a decent wage is actually quite high if
| you ask me.
| awelxtr wrote:
| In Spain 60% of companies don't survive the 5 year mark
| [1]. That's what I think when people say that making a
| company is hard.
|
| [1] https://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/12101579/
| 01/23...
| dangus wrote:
| That's way better odds than being a top tier professional
| athlete.
|
| If 60% of companies fail that means if you start 6
| businesses then you have a 95% probability of having a
| successful business.
|
| Only 1.6% of college football players transition to the
| NFL.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Maybe like running a restaurant... Other businesses if they
| are sensible to start with are lot less risky.
| WJW wrote:
| You can be "less risky" than a restaurant while still
| having dismal chances of success though. Nobody who starts
| a business expects that it'll be bankrupt within a few
| years, yet statistically some 90% are. The worst cases are
| when the company manages along for years and then still
| goes under. I was contracting for a 10 year old company of
| ~30 people last year and they just had to fire 20 of those
| and will still almost certainly go bankrupt. They weren't
| in a business you'd call "risky" either.
| tech_ken wrote:
| I think that once you've become, ex., the number 1 tennis
| player in a country it's tough to retrain, both literally and
| psychologically. Your whole life, and likely your self-worth,
| are highly enmeshed with the sport. Accepting that it's not
| going to work out is going to be straight up painful,
| psychologically, not to mention that you probably are pretty
| short on other qualifications.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| It is exactly this. Tennis has been the focal point of the
| entire life of these players. I saw this even in the juniors,
| no matter the success of the players. For those that were
| really involved in the sport, their entire life revolved
| around it, to the point where it became part of their
| identity. Young competitive players will spend most of their
| available time outside of school to play, that being multiple
| hours a day, seven days a week, year-round. To stop playing,
| is not just to make an easy pivot like the guy you responded
| to thinks it is, but is more like giving up on a religion
| that you've devoted your entire life and being to.
| krisoft wrote:
| But if you are the number 1 tennis player in your country in
| some objective sense, can't you build a coaching career out
| of that?
|
| Unless it is some pocket sized country (like the Vatican, or
| Andora) you should be able to find enough students to support
| yourself and being the number 1 player should help with
| marketing your coaching business.
| paulcole wrote:
| Why does anybody do anything when the odds are grim?
|
| Either they want to do it anyway or they think they have to do
| it.
| neaden wrote:
| At a guess, is it to become a tennis coach/pro later on? Like
| you do this in your 20s then coach at a private high school so
| they can say they have the former #129th ranked tennis player
| in the world.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| My previous coach was somewhere in the top 200 at some point.
| He wasn't very good at teaching tennis... My current one is a
| long term career tennis teacher with a much lower ranking,
| but he's very good at teaching.
|
| Being good yourself doesn't add much to your teaching skills.
| But it does help marketing a bit if you're targeting an
| audience that wants to become pro themselves.
| antisthenes wrote:
| > Is the low key story that these are mostly just old money
| children in a limbo of their parents' whims and lifelines?
|
| I think that's incredibly reductive, although does have a bit
| of a point.
|
| The gist of the story is that there's a special kind of
| loneliness when you're always on the cusp of "making it big" in
| an industry that is very very top-heavy in terms of rewards.
| (sports, acting, content creation, startup company, restaurant
| etc.)
|
| You can spend your entire youth chasing this dream, and it's a
| lot harder for some people to "give up the dream" than others.
| You can call this being delusional or you can call it the
| tyranny of high expectations (from others or from themselves).
|
| Yes, it's a lot easier to feed your delusion if you come from
| money. That's where a big "ick" for rich people come from -
| some of them are just incredibly mediocre in terms of skills,
| with their egos boosted by daddy's wallet.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| I more so meant just where are they getting the money to do
| this? Because the article sure seemed to suggest he was
| making far less than minimum wage considering his training
| time and tourney earnings.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| People playing tennis professionally aren't simply trying it
| out. The development of a tennis professional is probably most
| similar to someone who has been bred to become a classical
| musician. Those that play tennis or classical music
| professionally are never just trying something out, but have
| been fully immersed since childhood, to the point where their
| entire life revolves around playing. To give it up, would be to
| give up the one thing that their entire life has revolved
| around since childhood.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Giving up the thing your life has revolved around since
| childhood because it's just not happening is totally
| reasonable though.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Problem with these players is that it is kinda happening.
| Not properly, but they are not entirely failing... This is
| the most dangerous spot to be, you are not there yet, but
| you can reasonable think you can get there. These players
| get to play at least the early rounds. You are ever so
| slightly alternatively above and below the water...
| ordu wrote:
| Reasonably, maybe, but it means that the person needs to
| rejects themself. At this level of immersion sport/music
| becomes the part of the person, their definition (implicit
| or explicit) contains words "music" or "sport". It is still
| possible to throw it away and start again, but it is really
| difficult psychologically, and probably in other aspects
| too: they don't know how to be someone who is not a
| musician or an athlete.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| What I'm trying to explain is that for the top level
| juniors who become pros, it is not a hobby or "thing", it
| is their entire universe. Top junior players that expect to
| become pros are already touring the world when they are in
| their mid-teens. Their entire world is their parents, their
| coach, their peers at their tennis academy, and the players
| they see at tournaments. They are living and breathing it,
| and little else. The top junior players often do not
| participate in regular high schooling and the promising
| ones that go pro young, don't go to university at all.
| Almost none of the top pros even today have ever gone to
| university. The players that do make it to successful
| careers in the top 100, don't make it with the attitude of
| being half in with a backup plan. They make it with the
| idea that tennis is their entire life and purpose.
| riku_iki wrote:
| > To give it up, would be to give up the one thing that their
| entire life has revolved around since childhood.
|
| I imagine they could try to transfer to some coaching
| carrier, open personal business, etc.
| asdff wrote:
| Any of those players can go on to make excellent hourly
| offering lessons to adults and wealthy children. Its a poor
| slog now but that doesn't mean the experience has no value they
| could get from it.
| Liquix wrote:
| > I made virtually no lasting friendships on tour through my
| seven years, despite coming across hundreds of players my own age
| living the same life as my own.
|
| > Some players did go out partying locally, which I always felt
| was a stupid thing to do. Why put yourself through the budget
| travel, practice and expense to then go drinking in some remote
| and isolated corner of the world?
|
| I'm sure Futures events are isolating and lonely, but it seems
| the author was quick to cast judgment on the players who
| prioritized socializing over winning at all costs.
| tpurves wrote:
| Indeed. By definition, very few aspiring players break through
| to be among the very top players. But I bet some of those
| socializing players at least came away from their journey with
| a little less loneliness and more lasting friendships.
| bojan wrote:
| Is he wrong? That is an equivalent of weeknight drinking for us
| (remote) office workers.
|
| Showing up to work with a hangover is not a great thing to do.
| jononor wrote:
| You do not need to get drunk, or drink any alcohol at all to
| have a good time. No need to go until early in the morning
| either...
| dukeyukey wrote:
| I do not optimise my life to benefit my day job.
|
| And even if I did, socialising with your coworkers has a
| strong chance of being much better for your career than
| another early night.
| hext wrote:
| You can go out for drinks with coworkers and not show up
| hungover the next day... Like, office happy hours are
| basically a cliche at this point.
| xeromal wrote:
| Mentioning loneliness and then complaining about them
| socializing is kind of a self own
| paxys wrote:
| Yup, on reading the second part I immediately went "this guy is
| an introvert". Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I'm
| exactly like that on work trips and conferences, bolting to my
| hotel room immediately after the day's work is done. But I
| don't really buy the "no professional tennis player has any
| friends" message he's trying to push.
| NickC25 wrote:
| >I'm sure Futures events are isolating and lonely, but it seems
| the author was quick to cast judgment on the players who
| prioritized socializing over winning at all costs.
|
| I'm not so sure. These guys don't earn jack shit, even if they
| win small Futures/Challengers. Taxes, equipment, travel, etc..
| adds up quickly. Forget about coaching at that level.
|
| Not the right environment to go party with someone one night
| and then have to beat them the next day in order to put food on
| the table.
|
| Keep in mind that at this level, tennis is fucking insanely
| hard. A few guys from my high school tried that level (they all
| played D1 at top schools, a few were top 20 USTA as juniors,
| one made top 3 ITF and was highly ranked within the college
| game) and none of them fared well. These aren't some random
| scrubs - these are often times guys who either played top
| college ball, or guys who were top 100 ITF juniors who never
| had the game to get to the next level, or guys who were just
| not quite good enough to make top 100 ATP and need to grind
| every day to get auto entry to qualies at majors or ATP Masters
| events.
| alexpotato wrote:
| > By the time he had cracked the top 20, he was ignoring me
| completely.
|
| Many years ago, I was the global "head of support" for the main
| trading application at a large bank.
|
| I sat on the trading floor (b/c most of my users were there) and
| one of my jobs involved training the newly hired junior traders
| how to use the software.
|
| The training was usually on their first or second day on the
| floor. At this point in the story, they were INCREDIBLY polite to
| me. "Thank you so much for showing us this", "Wow! This training
| is so great! We really appreciate it!"
|
| Within two or three days, they stopped saying hello or even
| talking to me unless they were having an issue or there was an
| outage.
|
| Reading about how ranking determines social interactions in the
| tennis world resonated rather strongly with me given my
| experiences working in technology at a bank.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| This is reflection of our innate tendency to fit ourselves in
| an hierarchy and judge others by their perceived position in
| that hierarchy. The stronger someone attaches their self worth
| to their place in this hierarchy (ranking for tennis players,
| job title in corporate setting etc), the stronger their
| behaviour towards others will be driven by it.
| mgh2 wrote:
| Ego is a universal human problem, not only at work and
| sports, but in anything in life.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| Such a bizarre thing to experience, especially when you first
| join the work world.
| altdataseller wrote:
| Maybe im missing something but what is so strange about that?
| Once you stopped training them and thanked you, what else are
| they supposed to thank you for everyday?
| optimalsolver wrote:
| And yet I'm sure they managed to think up something to say to
| people higher in status than themselves.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Being a non-treadmill human.
| trevor-e wrote:
| > what else are they supposed to thank you for everyday
|
| OP: > they stopped saying hello or even talking to me
|
| The OP said they completely stopped talking, which is weird
| to not acknowledge someone you previously would talk to.
| Seems like sociopathic behavior to me, which these
| professions tend to attract. They got what they wanted/needed
| out of the relationship and now could care less.
| riku_iki wrote:
| > Seems like sociopathic behavior to me, which these
| professions tend to attract.
|
| given how cheap is to say hello, and maybe get some
| advantage from this in the future, this is not very smart
| sociopathic behavior.
|
| But this maybe be result of culture differences: some
| people grew up in culture where work is work(with all
| protocols, like saying hello to coworker), and personal
| life (interhuman behaviour) is something separate.
| billforsternz wrote:
| Obligatory mention that the more correct and logical
| formulation is "could NOT care less".
| usui wrote:
| Thank you for your service to the English language. This
| tremendous faux pas is so easy to correct just by
| thinking for a single second the basic logic of what is
| being said, and yet so many people continue making the
| mistake. Even worse, sometimes people justify it with a
| wacky "I care so little that I could care less, but I
| won't, that's how little I care" explanation.
| Retric wrote:
| It started as a sarcastic statement not a mistake, but
| it's been used so often it's turning into an idium.
|
| Languages are full of phrases that get used so often the
| original meaning gets lost organs others that are heading
| that way. Raining cats and Dogs is ancient and nobody is
| quite sure where it came from, but as long as people
| understand intent there's no need for to add up
| correctly.
| chgs wrote:
| Given that in English people say "I couldn't care less",
| seeing the complete opposite is somewhat weird.
| toss1 wrote:
| From what I've read, the logical formulation is indeed
| "could not care less".
|
| But the _correct_ formulation is a shrugging question "I
| could care less?", with the implication that the care-
| meter is already pegged at zero.
| KoftaBob wrote:
| > Seems like sociopathic behavior to me, which these
| professions tend to attract
|
| Yeah professions like finance both attract and reward
| sociopathic behavior.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| It is completely normal human behavior when you work with
| many people.
| chgs wrote:
| I still see people I haven't worked with for 15+ years.
| Assuming I recognise them I will nod or say hey if I bump
| into them in the lift.
| tomcam wrote:
| In the States saying hello to one's coworkers is regarded as
| a common courtesy.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| At some point you can't say hi to everyone, which is very
| normal. I walk by a hundred coworkers a day, and don't
| greet all of them, it isn't anything personal if I don't.
|
| That said, you better believe I Do take the extra 5 seconds
| to say hi to my bosses when I pass them.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| If I ignore you or anyone, please instead assume it's because
| interacting with you or anyone is very exhausting. I can and
| will be polite and full of smiles as you train me, but that's
| by far the hardest part of my day.
| tomcam wrote:
| It's hard to say hello?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Very.
| asdff wrote:
| Most individual competitive sports are like this. The top of the
| crop get the bulk of the tournament payouts, the bottom get a
| pittance that barely cover their costs to attend the tournament,
| and the ones who miss the cut entirely get a mound of debt for
| making their way out there to merely be a warm body for other
| talent to route. Sponsorships help cover some costs but not
| everyone can get very lucrative sponsor deals especially a low
| rank player. There's honestly better money giving lessons for
| probably $150-250 an hour or so than there is making a go at the
| world stage. I'm sure that's a path many end up taking after the
| writing is clear on the wall.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Not to mention that in many sports, you can literally be a
| world champion level and just barely affording to cover the
| necessary costs (best equipment, long training camps abroad
| etc.) to compete at the highest level.
|
| In my country we have olympic medalists in kayaking, rowing
| etc. and they are nowhere close to making any money out of it.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| > In my country we have olympic medalists in kayaking, rowing
| etc. and they are nowhere close to making any money out of
| it.
|
| That's the reason that in many countries the zoom Olympic
| athletes work for the state (soldier, police, ...) where
| training and representing the country at competitions are
| part of the Job and once the aports career is over ideally
| they get a job as clerk or such in the administration
| avalys wrote:
| Is there any reason to expect it should be otherwise?
| Competing in sports is a very selfish thing to do, and
| produces no benefit for anyone else unless you're good enough
| to be entertaining to watch, so why should anyone expect to
| make money doing it? You're adding no value to society.
| spuz wrote:
| I disagree that the low ranking athletes don't provide
| value to society. They are the motivation for the people at
| the top to continue to improve. The more people are nipping
| at the feet of the top athletes, the more they realise they
| increase their game. That's without mentioning that in some
| sports, a lot of people enjoy watching the lower level
| performers because they can more easily relate to them.
| gnicholas wrote:
| > _The true unfortunates, though, were the ones who were talented
| enough to rationally hope to advance. These were people who grew
| up as the best tennis players in their country, but were stuck
| between 300 and 600 in the world, not quite contending for the
| Challenger Tour nor the qualifiers at grand slams, but winning
| just often enough to keep their tennis dream faintly alive._
|
| Seems like a familiar pattern.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Just like startups innit? Fail quick or win big. But the worst
| is muddling along. You might be a figma you might be nobody.
| Nothing to do but keep going. M
| lurker919 wrote:
| When I was a child I dreamed of being a professional sportsperson
| - a soccer star or a tennis pro. Now in my late 20s, I shudder
| thinking of the pressure/stress, injuries and constant
| competitiveness that my life would have been if I had gone down
| that path.
| smallstepforman wrote:
| I was stunned to see the tennis world "ignore" the polital
| mistreatment of Djokovic at the Australian 2022 Open. The 8-time
| defending champ and most likely the GOAT although given a visa
| from the proper authorities was expelled from the country due to
| a whim of a local politician in a position of power.
|
| His fellow players should have all united together and said "ban
| him, and we all go in protest to his mistreatment". Instead, like
| vultures, they enjoyed and tried to capitalise on his
| mistreatment. A selfish batch of players in the top 100, every
| single one of them. And the Joker was their "spokesperson /
| representative" for countless issues before, and they all
| abandoned him. Disgraceful.
| navane wrote:
| He was treated fair and just, and with that the other players
| were respected.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| There are a lot of small insular little fields like this where
| the main people all know each other personally and
| professionally: touring musicians, professional surfers, that
| sort of thing. Tennis players definitely.
|
| When one of these people receives negative publicity that
| reaches the general public and no one from their field really
| speaks out on their behalf, you can usually assume it's because
| they're widely disliked among their peers. Professional tact
| may prevent colleagues from publicly saying anything against
| them, but they will just decline the opportunity to speak in
| their favor like this.
|
| It's a heuristic and not a perfect one but it's pretty
| reliable. If it were just a matter of internal sport politics
| they would have some allies that would come to their defense.
| If they are personally disliked even by their associates &
| allies you get this kind of silence.
| krisoft wrote:
| > 8-time defending champ and most likely the GOAT
|
| None of that should matter at all.
|
| > expelled from the country due to a whim of a local politician
| in a position of power
|
| It was the Australian Minister for Immigration, Citizenship,
| Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs. That is a federal
| position. Saying "local politician" makes it sound like it was
| the city major or something. But if you mean a politician local
| to Australia, sure. Who else do you think should have decided?
| amelius wrote:
| Is there a self reinforcing effect that keeps high ranking tennis
| players in the higher ranks, other than playing regularly against
| other high ranked players?
| gumby wrote:
| Was just reflecting on this yesterday: when I parked my car I saw
| a paper sign on the lamppost: "learn tennis from a professional".
| The person was the number 1 player in Nepal, ranked in the 1200s
| professionally.
|
| I assume and hope he was in Palo Alto as a student and just
| wanted to make some beer money. Otherwise that sign would reflect
| a pretty tough situation.
|
| The Stanford faculty family swim and tennis club has a pro, the
| local Palo Alto tennis and skating club has a pro...there are a
| lot of them to go around.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Plus all the kids advertising on Nextdoor, including members of
| Stanford's team.
| dcreater wrote:
| He most likely will make more money coaching than playing
| competitive tennis. Especially in the Bay area.
| nextworddev wrote:
| Sounds like pro tennis has a lot in common with startup world and
| SV
| staminade wrote:
| I really recommend reading any of David Foster Wallace's essays
| about tennis. The book "String Theory" collects all his writing
| on the subject. He was a lifelong fan of the sport, but also a
| nationally ranked junior player and he's able to provide
| exceptional insight in the insane dedication (as well as talent)
| needed to reach even the lowest rungs of the competitive tennis
| world, and what a grind the tour can be for lower ranked
| professionals.
| papa-whisky wrote:
| The essay that the book takes its title from is particularly
| relevant to this discussion and freely available online:
| https://www.esquire.com/sports/a5151/the-string-theory-david...
|
| (As an aside, I'm surprised to see this in Esquire, do they
| still publish writing like this or was it a very different
| magazine "back in the day"?)
| tthhy58855 wrote:
| Sounds awfully like academia.
|
| I hate meeting some of my former colleagues. Worse, success in
| academia is not entirely determined by how smart you are - your
| ability to socialize and market had far greater impact.
|
| Ofc. academics' priority for knowledge is far far lower today
| than fame and money.
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