[HN Gopher] Ultra-processed foods need tobacco-style warnings, s...
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Ultra-processed foods need tobacco-style warnings, says scientist
Author : elsewhen
Score : 31 points
Date : 2024-06-27 16:08 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| ulrikrasmussen wrote:
| I am generally against banning things that can harm our bodies
| and minds, but I think that we need to regulate a lot more
| aggressively. There is no doubt that ultra-processed foods are
| unhealthy, and although a bit hyperbole maybe, the relationship
| between regular and ultra-processed food is analogous to the
| relationship between coca leaf and crack cocaine. Although both
| are technically the same substance, the means of delivery makes a
| huge difference on how immediately gratifying and habit-forming
| they are.
|
| I think we should make regulation that enforces stronger
| separation between food and beverages that we consume as part of
| a healthy diet, and candy and psychoactive substances that we
| consume for fun. We should acknowledge that a significant and
| growing fraction of the population are forced to actively fight
| their inner voices telling them to consume these things whenever
| they go to a supermarket, which they have to because we all need
| to eat. Alcohol, tobacco and ultra-processed foods have no place
| in food stores, but should be confined to dedicated outlets.
| tracker1 wrote:
| On a similar note, I find it fascinating how many people feel
| fruit juice smoothies are healthy. I mean, as a small kid, my
| grandparents would tell me fruit juice should be really
| limited, like half a cup a few times a week. To people downing
| 30oz/1L fruit smoothies daily. A lot of times it comes down to
| dosage.
|
| edit: example, "it's 'natural'," and my typical response, "your
| liver, pancreas and kidneys don't care."
| br3d wrote:
| I, too, am nervous of banning things, but we need to take a
| holistic evidence-based view. As part of this, we should be
| looking at the hidden subsidies that support UPF manufacturing
| and enable such products to be, in many cases, wildly cheaper
| than healthier alternatives
| ideonexus wrote:
| It's not just the UPFs, we need scientifically-backed truth-in-
| advertising for all foods. For years I thought I was eating very
| healthy, but then my blood tests got worse and worse until my
| doctor wanted to put me on medications. I asked for six more
| months, and spent that time reading the labels on all the
| "healthy" foods I was consuming. It was eye-opening. So much
| added sugar, saturated fat, and simple carbohydrates spiking my
| blood sugar and driving up my cholesterol. I dumped all the
| processed foods, went whole-foods, Mediterranean Diet,
| pescatarian, and blew my doctor's mind when all my tests came
| back healthy.
|
| We have an epidemic of declining healthspans forcing most of us
| to spend the last decades of our lives as invalids, surrendering
| our life-savings to the medical industry after the food industry
| is done ruining our health for profit. This is not about personal
| responsibility. This is about a food industry that is lying to us
| about the health effects of eating their hyper-palatable, hyper-
| processed foods. Corporations lie to sell us food engineered to
| make us addicted, render us sick, and then sell us the
| medications to keep our hearts beating so we can continue to
| consume.
| nickff wrote:
| What did your "very healthy" diet consist of? Why did you
| consider it healthy, and in what specific way were you wrong?
| ideonexus wrote:
| Just a few examples:
|
| 1. Sugarless Protein Bars: just last week I found one they
| claimed 30 grams of protein on the front of the package, but
| hidden in the nutrition facts is that it has four-times the
| daily recommended saturated fats. These will give you heart
| disease and are found in the health food section of
| convenience stores.
|
| 2. Pretty much all advertised "health food" snacks will make
| you exceed your daily saturated fats and sugar limits. If
| it's not a food in its purest form, it will have added sugar
| and fat. How many products slap a "high in fiber" sticker on
| their package, when in reality they have very little fiber or
| are selling you that fiber with a huge dose of sugar and fat?
|
| 3. "lean" meats: This one shocked me. Advertised as high in
| protein, health youtubers promoted it to me all the time, but
| actually very rich in unhealthy fats and getting more fatty
| every decade as cows and chickens are bred for more fat.
|
| 4. Rice, Pasta, and other simple carbs: I started monitoring
| my glucose and these had to go after watching incredible
| spikes in blood sugar after eating them.
|
| What do I eat now? Whole grains and Legumes daily, leafy
| greens daily, fresh and frozen fruits, and fish three times a
| week. My blood sugars are stable, my lipid profile is great,
| and I'm getting the best sleep of my life as tracked by my
| fitbit. I look around me at the epidemic of metabolic disease
| and then I look at how 95% of every grocery store contributes
| to that and I want to see public policy change on this issue.
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| Try making socca chickpea flour pizzas. So quick to make,
| so much good stuff (protein, resistant starch, fiber). You
| can get organic chickpea flour from the bulk bin for cheap
| too.
| riku_iki wrote:
| > it has four-times the daily recommended saturated fats.
| These will give you heart disease
|
| I think this is very debatable and doesn't have clear
| backing evidence.
| stavros wrote:
| If your food comes with a label, it's not healthy.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| I have some concerns about what our farmers are doing to
| our fruit and vegetables as well.
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| I've posted on here before but I'm concerned with the
| current 'off label' practice of using glyphosate for crop
| desiccation (basically spraying it on the crop prior to
| harvesting to kill it and dry it out sooner) when most
| studies of glyphosate have been for the standard use to
| kill weeds much earlier in the process and the lower
| residual levels the standard use leaves.
| theamk wrote:
| I just wish there were a good definition of "ultra-processed
| food", because most of the ones I saw basically equivalent to
| "I'll tell you when I see it". Like wikipedia [0]:
|
| "An ultra-processed food (UPF) is an industrially formulated
| edible substance derived from natural food or synthesized from
| other organic compounds."
|
| But this describes almost any prepared food. For example take an
| good cheese, something made only with milk and rennet:
|
| "industrially formulated" - check! (surely a cheese industry
| changed formula at least once in last 200 years);
|
| "edible substance" - check! (very edible, yum-yum)
|
| "derived from natural food or synthesized from other organic
| compounds." - check! (what isn't)
|
| .. so it's an UPF and should get a warning label?
|
| If they want to start passing the laws related to UPF, I'd like
| to see a good clear definition first.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-processed_food
| ianburrell wrote:
| The definition is clear but it produces weird results. And
| isn't useful for determining harm. The UPF categories with most
| harm are processed meats and sugary beverages. But some are
| healthy, like whole grain bread cause of fiber and vitamins.
|
| If sugar is the problem, then fruit juice should also be the
| problem and processing doesn't matter. Highly processed corn
| syrup may be worse, but regular sugar is almost as bad. I
| haven't seen argument that the preservatives and making things
| on industrial scale is the problem.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Depends on preservatives. Nitrites/Nitrates used with cured
| meats seem to be less than ideal... On other hand they also
| increase food safety...
|
| Which also opens up question of what factors we balance.
| Removing too many preservatives from food likely will
| increase waste. Which then have corresponding impact
| emissions and resources in general...
| esd_g0d wrote:
| Yeah, to me the whole discussion of "UPF = unhealthy" is
| based on a romanticization of "natural" that breaks down if
| you try to make sense of it.
|
| If you use the right words, you can make even cheese and
| butter sound ultra processed. So the concept of UPF itself is
| shaky.
|
| Additionally, there is nothing inherent in the "food
| processing" process that makes the material "unhealthy" --
| whatever those words mean. So even if we could define UPFs,
| there wouldn't be an inherent correlation with unhealthiness,
| as pointed out in the example of fruit juice -- a personal
| favorite of mine, because the natural crowd loves fruit juice
| (don't get me wrong, I love it too, but I'm aware it's just
| candy)
| turtlebits wrote:
| Personally, my family avoids foods with hydrogenated
| ingredients, and added phosphates, nitrites or sulfites.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Yes, the definition is everything except raw meat and raw
| vegetables.
|
| Also, the health impacts alleged are negligible and will be
| altered drastically in 5 years.
|
| Ergo, none of this is worth thinking about and is just a
| busybox for people's death anxiety.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Can we start with an actual definition of "ultra-processed". I've
| seen studies that defined any product with more than five
| ingredients as "ultra-processed" which seems both arbitrary and
| broad.
|
| Has anyone shown actual harm from these foods or is it more a
| correlation where people that each ultra-processed have a lot of
| other factors that contribute to unhealthy outcomes?
| zug_zug wrote:
| We can, but it's going to be technical. The layman's definition
| is -- "things we eat that bear little resemblance to the food
| we have evolved on" but wikipedia says that Nova defines it as:
|
| Industrially manufactured food products made up of several
| ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and salt
| (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in
| processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary use
| (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, modified
| starches and protein isolates). Group 1 foods are absent or
| represent a small proportion of the ingredients in the
| formulation. Processes enabling the manufacture of ultra-
| processed foods include industrial techniques such as
| extrusion, moulding and pre-frying; application of additives
| including those whose function is to make the final product
| palatable or hyperpalatable such as flavours, colourants, non-
| sugar sweeteners and emulsifiers; and sophisticated packaging,
| usually with synthetic materials. Processes and ingredients
| here are designed to create highly profitable (low-cost
| ingredients, long shelf-life, emphatic branding), convenient
| (ready-to-(h)eat or to drink), tasteful alternatives to all
| other Nova food groups and to freshly prepared dishes and
| meals. Ultra-processed foods are operationally distinguishable
| from processed foods by the presence of food substances of no
| culinary use (varieties of sugars such as fructose, high-
| fructose corn syrup, 'fruit juice concentrates', invert sugar,
| maltodextrin, dextrose and lactose; modified starches; modified
| oils such as hydrogenated or interesterified oils; and protein
| sources such as hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate,
| gluten, casein, whey protein and 'mechanically separated meat')
| or of additives with cosmetic functions (flavours, flavour
| enhancers, colours, emulsifiers, emulsifying salts, sweeteners,
| thickeners and anti-foaming, bulking, carbonating, foaming,
| gelling and glazing agents) in their list of ingredients.[22]
| theteapot wrote:
| So .. instant noodles are UPF? Please say no. That's
| basically 50%+ of what I eat (with veggies etc) and I think
| that's probably true for an entire generation of low income
| persons across South East Asia these days.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| Deep fried instant noodles are extremely bad for you. It's
| possible to buy baked (non-fried) varieties and the only
| difference I've noticed is that the cooking time goes up by
| a few minutes.
| hollerith wrote:
| Noodles don't need to be fried or baked, and I would
| think that baking them would produce nasty acrylamide in
| even greater quantities than frying them does unless
| perhaps the baker is using carefully-controlled low
| temperatures, which it is unrealistic to assume an
| economically-motivated producer would do.
|
| But then maybe noodles do need to be fried or baked to
| have a long shelf life in hot weather when refrigeration
| is not available? But even in a hot climate, white flour
| has a long shelf-life, and a person without a
| refrigerator can make noodles from scratch like the
| Italians like to do. (The Italians tend to add eggs, but
| I am guessing grandparent has regular access to eggs.)
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| Suggesting scratch-made noodles as a reasonable
| alternative to instant noodles demonstrates an
| astonishing lack of understanding of the reason people
| eat instant noodles, not to mention the lack of reasoning
| it would take to deduce that people drawn to a product
| labeled "instant" are probably looking for something
| relatively quick.
| hollerith wrote:
| Astonishing.
| hollerith wrote:
| I am just guessing here, not having studied the issue in
| depth, but someone whose ancestors lived in South East Asia
| (or East Asia), where rice has provided the majority of the
| calories for thousands of years, can probably remain
| healthy on a diet high in refined carbohydrates, a diet
| that is clearly unhealthy for me, whose ancestors come from
| Northern Europe where keeping cows and later pigs was a
| large part of the agricultural economy for the last 6,000
| years or so (and before then there was a large supply of
| large animals available for hunting -- large animals that
| specialize in eating grass and therefore are not loaded
| with parasites the way that animals that sometimes eat meat
| are). I do much better when most of my calories come from
| fat and protein.
|
| But I do not partake in the ketosis fad: I eat a small
| amount of carbs with almost every meal, and if I don't, I
| get heart palpitations. (And I've seen studies showing the
| ketosis is a strain on the heart.)
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| Are they made from brown rice and keep the bran and germ
| portions or from heavily processed white rice? Are they
| made from whole grain flour or processed white flower?
| theteapot wrote:
| I think you call instant noodles "Ramen" in US. Never
| heard of rice instant noodles before .. Typically [1]:
|
| > Noodle production starts with dissolving the salt,
| starch, and flavoring in water to form a mixture that is
| then added to the flour. The dough is then left for a
| period of time to mature, then for even distribution of
| the ingredients and hydration of the particles in the
| dough, it is kneaded. After it is kneaded, the dough is
| made into two sheets compounded into one single noodle
| belt by being put through two rotating rollers. This
| process is repeated to develop gluten more easily as the
| sheet is folded and passed through the rollers several
| times. This will create the stringy and chewy texture
| found in instant noodles.
|
| [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles#Production
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| I guess I assumed people would consider ramen a highly
| processed food. USA instant ramen also often comes pre-
| fried.
|
| In the USA there's 'just soak in hot water' rice noodle
| packs though I normally use the soak in hot water mung
| bean noodles. Both of which would be considered highly
| processed.
| turtlebits wrote:
| Absolutely, have you ever looked at the number of
| ingredients in instant noodles?
|
| I've started to looked at packaged food ingredients and now
| avoid foods with added phosphates and nitrates.
| Exuma wrote:
| Is that protein isolate different than my isolated whey
| protein workout shake
| dragontamer wrote:
| > "things we eat that bear little resemblance to the food we
| have evolved on"
|
| Okay.
|
| So are we ready to ban bread? Is that really what you're
| proposing? Or white-rice?
|
| > Industrially manufactured food products made up of several
| ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and
| salt (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in
| processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary
| use (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils,
| modified starches and protein isolates).
|
| So Lays potato chips (only Potatoes, Oil, and Salt on the
| ingredients list) don't need a warning label?
|
| McDonalds fries and potato chips are fine because they're all
| natural ingredients, amirite?
| neuralRiot wrote:
| Foods should have a "health score rating" similar to cars
| safety score.
| zero-sharp wrote:
| Sure, it's not a binary classification. Now what? I'm confident
| that you can distinguish between foods with more additives and
| those with less.
|
| Science will give you conclusions you can be confident in. But
| who would be paying for the research? Would there ever be that
| much incentive to investigate individual ingredients? How long
| would it take?
|
| I'm sure somebody a lot more diligent than I am can point you
| to all of those instances in the past where we created harm by
| exposing ourselves to something novel, prior to it being
| understood scientifically. I don't think exercising caution is
| unscientific.
| filoleg wrote:
| You aren't addresing the problem posed by the grandparent
| comment.
|
| You say we should be more on the cautious side. Sure, that's
| a fine take. But without actual classification as to what
| counts as "ultra-processed" food that actually maps to harm
| in some way, you end up with the California-style "potential
| carcinogen" sticker warning slapped on almost everything.
| Which is useless at best.
| why_at wrote:
| I agree that this proposed regulation seems like it probably
| won't help. Defining what counts as an ultra-processed food is
| challenging, and the actual causal link to health outcomes is
| far from clear. This article from Science-Based Medicine makes
| a good case against this kind of thing.[0]
|
| What can we actually do to make people eat healthier though?
| Rising obesity rates are one of those societal problems where
| I'm not sure what the solution is. The best strategy I can
| think of is something like "do our best to solve poverty and
| hope that this helps with obesity as well".
|
| [0] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ultraprocessed-foods/
| riku_iki wrote:
| > I agree that this proposed regulation seems like it
| probably won't help.
|
| I would personally use this as a signal when making choice
| among other factors.
|
| Say I am choosing between two types of ham.
| zug_zug wrote:
| Imagine a future where all food stores have 3 sections:
|
| - The Green section (Food) - Natural food our ancestors would
| have eaten.
|
| - The yellow section (Food-derived) - Things made partly from
| food, but in a factory, with huge servings of sugar, salt, and
| other artificial flavors -- granola bars, tomato sauces, etc.
|
| - The red section (Calories) - Products that have calories but no
| nutritional value, no or negative impact on microbiome,
| indefinite shelf-life, >50% calories are refined sugar.
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