[HN Gopher] FDA warns top U.S. bakery not to claim foods contain...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       FDA warns top U.S. bakery not to claim foods contain allergens when
       they don't
        
       Author : isaacfrond
       Score  : 74 points
       Date   : 2024-06-26 08:45 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
        
       | isaacfrond wrote:
       | It's may favorite example of unintended consequences.
       | 
       | FDA orders bakers to list allergens. There are stiff penalties if
       | you are allergenic but don't list the allergen.
       | 
       | So? Bakers claim their product contains allergens, even if they
       | don't.
       | 
       | FDA doesn't like it.
       | 
       | So? Bakers add allergens on purpose, so they can rightly claim it
       | contains them.
        
         | mytailorisrich wrote:
         | I don't know in the US (though it is mentioned at the end of
         | the article) but here, UK, they tend to warn to the product
         | "may contain ..." if there is any chance of contamination and
         | that indeed appears a lot on bakery products and sandwiches.
        
           | chaostheory wrote:
           | I believe that was the status quo until now.
        
           | gumby wrote:
           | This is common in the US as well, typically worded as
           | "manufactured in a facility that also processes" although the
           | wording you wrote is common too.
        
           | ASalazarMX wrote:
           | It's much cheaper than taking precautions against cross-
           | contamination, but weasel words should not be part of
           | disclaimers.
        
           | mrspuratic wrote:
           | "precautionary allergen labeling" [1]. In EU it's still up to
           | individual countries to regulate it, e.g. Ireland [2]
           | 
           | > Use of a 'may contain....' statement, or similar, to
           | indicate that the product may contain an allergen as a result
           | of possible cross-contamination, must not take the place of
           | good manufacturing practices (GMPs) in a food business.
           | 
           | > GMPs must be in place to prevent cross-contamination
           | 
           | [1] https://www.efanet.org/news/news/4327-efa-responds-to-
           | codex-...
           | 
           | [2] https://www.fsai.ie/business-advice/labelling/labelling-
           | alle...
        
         | fred_is_fred wrote:
         | The next iteration will be adding 1 mg of almond flour, 1 mg of
         | peanuts, and 1 mg milk to every ton of dough they make. Then it
         | really will have the allergens.
        
         | gus_massa wrote:
         | It already happened: " _New federal food label law has
         | unintended effect: Sesame now in more foods_ "
         | https://www.fox9.com/news/new-us-food-label-law-unintended-e...
         | (HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34116211
         | (244 points | Dec 2022 | 420 comments))
        
           | washadjeffmad wrote:
           | When a friend whose son has tree and ground nut allergies
           | told me this, I didn't believe it, but to her, it made
           | perfect sense. With the thresholds for anaphylactic response
           | so low, it's costlier not to be able to guarantee that
           | there's no cross contamination than to just add the allergen.
        
         | jokethrowaway wrote:
         | And imagine that it probably happens for every instance of
         | centralisation and regulation in our society - with few people
         | connecting the dots and tracing things back by some well-
         | meaning but clueless bureaucrats
        
           | llamaimperative wrote:
           | This happens all over the place in private industry too.
           | Nothing unique about regulation or bureaucracy that produces
           | effects like this.
           | 
           | If anything, centralization is the best tool to detect and
           | avoid issues like this. Locally, every decision is completely
           | reasonable. It's only zoomed out that it doesn't make sense.
        
         | lylejantzi3rd wrote:
         | It's closer to:
         | 
         | FDA orders bakers to list allergens. There are stiff penalties
         | if you are allergenic but don't list the allergen.
         | 
         | So? Bakers look at their production processes and determine
         | there's a chance that enough allergens get into the product due
         | to cross contamination to list it on the label, just in case.
         | 
         | FDA doesn't like it. They expect the bakers to fix their cross-
         | contamination issues at great expense to themselves.
         | 
         | So? Bakers add allergens on purpose, so they can rightly claim
         | it contains them. It's cheaper than setting up a clean room for
         | every product line.
        
           | starttoaster wrote:
           | It's closer to:
           | 
           | FDA orders bakers to list allergens. There are stiff
           | penalties if you are allergenic but don't list the allergen.
           | 
           | So? Bakers look at their production processes and determine
           | there's a chance that enough allergens get into the product
           | due to cross contamination to list it on the label, just in
           | case.
           | 
           | FDA doesn't like it. They expect the bakers to fix their
           | cross-contamination issues at great expense to themselves.
           | 
           | So? Bakers add allergens on purpose, so they can rightly
           | claim it contains them. It's cheaper than setting up a clean
           | room for every product line.
           | 
           | FDA doesn't like it.
        
           | lupire wrote:
           | So? Congress passes "CAFE" style standards requiring that
           | every large bakery offer a fraction of their SKUs as
           | allergen-feee variation, or pay a "cap and trade" fee to a
           | baker who does.
        
         | JohnMakin wrote:
         | That is pretty funny, in a really sad way.
        
           | ganzuul wrote:
           | It's evil.
        
             | fragmede wrote:
             | It's the market being efficient. Markets solve everything,
             | yay!
        
               | esd_g0d wrote:
               | What do you propose instead in this case? Not trying to
               | be snarky, just to get the discussion rolling.
               | 
               | Asking everyone to "play nice" or "don't be evil" also
               | often does not work in practice. I mean I'd love it if it
               | did, but such is life.
        
             | llamaimperative wrote:
             | This is a really counterproductive way to try to understand
             | problems like this.
             | 
             | No one is trying to do anything evil. Every step is
             | individually quite reasonable and well within ethical
             | bounds. The issue is that you can produce systems comprised
             | solely of reasonable and ethical decisions that nonetheless
             | yield an outcome that every actor would describe as bad.
             | 
             |  _That_ is a useful way to interpret this situation and
             | others, because you don't waste your time looking for a
             | boogeyman to call Evil and instead it prompts you to zoom
             | out and operate on the bigger picture.
        
               | esd_g0d wrote:
               | This, a million times.
               | 
               | My dream is "game theory" taught in schools, so we can
               | all more productively discuss public policy, etc.
               | 
               | The field of "mechanism design" may interest those to
               | whom this speaks to. From Wiki
               | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_design):
               | 
               | > Mechanism design is a branch of economics, social
               | choice theory, and game theory that deals with designing
               | games (or mechanisms) to implement a given social choice
               | function. Because it starts at the end of the game (the
               | optimal result) and then works backwards to find a game
               | that implements it, it is sometimes called reverse game
               | theory.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | Have you found any good books on mechanism design for
               | laypeople? I picked one up (can't remember the name) but
               | it was quite textbooky and mathy, and I'd prefer to start
               | with a more conceptual overview.
        
           | ASalazarMX wrote:
           | At least it gives more certainty than "might contain traces
           | of <ALLERGEN>", which always leaves you wondering.
        
         | brookst wrote:
         | California proposition 65 is the classic example. Since it
         | requires buildings to warn visitors if they contain cancer-
         | causing substances, and since no landlord can possibly know
         | every substance that even tenant or visitor might have, every
         | building has a "this building may or may not contain cancer-
         | causing substances" placard.
         | 
         | It's surreal and awesome.
        
           | Molitor5901 wrote:
           | My favorite is the Marriott in downtown Monterey. This
           | building may contain substances which is known ... Utter
           | crap.
        
           | nonameiguess wrote:
           | The problems with Prop 65 go beyond that. The legislation
           | itself effectively made no attempt to define what it means
           | for something to cause cancer. The commission put in charge
           | of enforcement ultimately decided it would mean anything that
           | current scientific evidence suggests has a 1 in 100,000 risk
           | of eventually causing cancer if you are exposed to it for an
           | entire lifetime. Subsequent lawsuits clarified that a
           | substance must be included even if the risk is only proven to
           | exist in non-human animals.
           | 
           | Ironically, I never even knew this, but apparently the
           | proposition only exists because Jane Fonda thought it would
           | draw left-leaning voters to the polls to hopefully vote for
           | Tom Bradley over George Deukmejian in the 1986 race for
           | California governor. She and the other proponents didn't even
           | think the proposition itself would pass. But the proposition
           | did pass and Bradley wasn't even elected!
        
         | Molitor5901 wrote:
         | Now the FDA is saying adding those allergens on purpose is
         | wrong. Figuratively, it's nuts. I suspect this will end up in
         | court.
        
           | ulyssys wrote:
           | > Figuratively, it's nuts.
           | 
           | ...and literally, it may or may not be nuts.
        
       | edwinjm wrote:
       | You can just label it as "might contain traces of X due to cross
       | contamination". At least that's how they do it in Europe.
        
         | alwa wrote:
         | That seems to be the problem. New regulations [0] would require
         | expensive measures to prevent cross-contamination if your label
         | says that your product carries a risk of cross-contamination.
         | 
         | But it's not "contamination" if it's an ingredient, so if one
         | thing in your factory has sesame in it, you're better off
         | adding a tiny bit of sesame to everything else than you would
         | be scouring the whole line between products.
         | 
         | Presumably the business folks have run the numbers, and you
         | stand to lose less by losing the sesame-sensitive market than
         | you would stand to gain by making everything verifiably sesame-
         | free. For that matter, your sesame-sensitive folks probably are
         | avoiding the product anyway if it "may contain traces," right?
         | 
         | [0] https://www.food-safety.com/articles/8903-fda-updates-
         | guidan....
        
       | ganzuul wrote:
       | Doing the right thing would be a lot cheaper in the long run
       | because a lot of people have mental problems from diet issues.
       | 
       | Subsidies for common allergens that become cheap filler is
       | another part of the epidemic.
        
       | Molitor5901 wrote:
       | This seems like splitting hairs on the part of the FDA.
       | 
       |  _FDA officials acknowledged Tuesday that statements that a
       | product "may contain" certain allergens "could be considered
       | truthful and not misleading." Bimbo officials have until July 8
       | to identify steps taken to remedy the issue -- or to explain why
       | the labeling doesn 't violate FDA standards._
       | 
       | So a baker.. who adds (insert allergy ingredient here), in minute
       | quantity so they can legally say it contains it, is still in the
       | wrong because that product does not normally contain said
       | ingredient?
       | 
       | What is a baker to do? I think it is wholly unreasonable to say a
       | baker cannot say on the product that the product may contain
       | traces of an ingredient, when they cannot 100% say it does not.
       | This just seems like splitting hairs and unnecessarily penalizing
       | the baker.
       | 
       | We should _want_ a food maker to list all possible allergens that
       | _could_ be present, not just _are_ present in the foods.
        
         | utensil4778 wrote:
         | This is about sesame. Last year or so, the FDA changed the
         | rules about sesame as an allergen. Some bakeries then decided
         | to just slap "may contain traces of sesame" on everything so
         | they didn't have to pay the cost of actually ensuring there's
         | no cross-contamination.
         | 
         | This has significantly harmed consumers who are actually
         | allergic to sesame. Now there's effectively no way to know if a
         | baked product will _actually_ contain sesame, so you either get
         | to eat nothing or take the chance.
         | 
         | It was a clear and flagrant abuse of the "may contain traces"
         | mechanism. The bakeries caused harm for consumers as a way to
         | avoid the coats of doing business safely.
        
           | underseacables wrote:
           | If it says it on the label, and you're allergic to it, then
           | you shouldn't eat it. This doesn't harm consumers at all.
        
             | Detrytus wrote:
             | It does harm consumers by severely limiting their choices,
             | especially if companies start putting the warning on every
             | product by default, instead of actually making reasonable
             | effort to prevent contamination.
        
               | baggy_trough wrote:
               | Your definition of reasonable may differ greatly from
               | those who must perform said efforts.
        
               | starttoaster wrote:
               | You couldn't write a more perfect allegory for what has
               | already happened due to California's Proposition 65. The
               | common denominator here is that the government gives
               | companies new rules to follow, and enforces severe
               | penalties for breaking them, and so the companies
               | minimized their risk by following them to the extreme.
               | 
               | It's almost like if you want a different outcome, the
               | government agencies involved need to step up and do a
               | more thoughtful job of architecting these policies in a
               | way where the companies are forced to follow the "spirit"
               | of them.
               | 
               | I can't be mad if I create a policy, and someone follows
               | it. My intention should have been in the policy, not just
               | implied.
        
               | inferiorhuman wrote:
               | The common denominator here is that the government gives
               | companies new rules       to follow, and enforces severe
               | penalties for breaking them, and so the       companies
               | minimized their risk by following them to the extreme.
               | 
               | Hardly. Prop 65 initially contained minimal guidance and
               | essentially no teeth. So rather than identify problematic
               | chemicals companies just slapped generic Prop 65 warnings
               | on everything.                 architecting these
               | policies in a way where the companies are forced to
               | follow the "spirit" of them.
               | 
               | Prop 65 was updated so that companies were required to
               | put specifics on the warning label. The state even went
               | so far as to start enforcing the requirements, and
               | then...                 I can't be mad if I create a
               | policy, and someone follows it.
               | 
               | And then the state got sued because apparently labeling
               | your products is simply more difficult than legal action.
        
               | javier123454321 wrote:
               | I suppose we have different definitions of harm.
               | Providing a product which might contain an allergen and
               | notifying you of that possibility is not harm in my book.
        
               | thrill wrote:
               | And what is the FDA definition of "reasonable" that will
               | keep the ambulance chasers away from their businesses?
        
           | starttoaster wrote:
           | > It was a clear and flagrant abuse of the "may contain
           | traces" mechanism. The bakeries caused harm for consumers as
           | a way to avoid the coats of doing business safely.
           | 
           | In the exact same way that every product ever invented may
           | cause cancer in California, I assume? This is a problem with
           | the FDA, not the companies. Give a dog a long leash, they're
           | going to use the slack.
        
             | heavyset_go wrote:
             | Companies aren't dogs, companies have obligations that they
             | need to fulfill and they're choosing to neglect them.
        
               | starttoaster wrote:
               | > Companies aren't dogs
               | 
               | Metaphor, but sure, quite literally they're not dogs.
               | Very true.
               | 
               | > companies have obligations that they need to fulfill
               | and they're choosing to neglect them.
               | 
               | From our eyes they're neglecting to follow the spirit of
               | a policy. From their eyes, they're following it to the
               | letter of the policy. Perspective.
        
           | hollerith wrote:
           | >Now there's effectively no way to know if a baked product
           | will actually contain sesame
           | 
           | You are catastrophizing. It remains the case that any baked
           | product that doesn't have "may contain traces of sesame" on
           | the label must by law be free of traces of sesame. And if no
           | producer chooses to produce such a product, then it is
           | because the number of people who want it is quite small (or
           | the costs of complying with regulations is too high to make a
           | profit), and it is not hard for someone to bake their own
           | bread.
        
           | quickthrowman wrote:
           | Is a bakery obligated to sell sesame-free products?
           | 
           | If a bakery wants to limit their potential customers by
           | saying their products may contain sesame to avoid liability,
           | I don't see why the FDA should step in and force them to take
           | on liability and capital costs for sesame free factories.
           | 
           | If the FDA's current allergen rules are leading to this
           | outcome, perhaps it's the FDA's rules that are flawed.
        
           | infecto wrote:
           | > It was a clear and flagrant abuse of the "may contain
           | traces" mechanism. The bakeries caused harm for consumers as
           | a way to avoid the coats of doing business safely.
           | 
           | My view is that the business should be able to decide who
           | they want to service or not. According to recent US studies,
           | 0.2% of the population have a noticeable allergy to sesame.
           | Seems like bakeries don't want to invest money for such a
           | small percentage. It sucks but this opens the door for new
           | bakeries to cater towards those with this specific allergy.
           | Why does the government need to force business to do it?
        
             | jasinjames wrote:
             | The number might be 0.2% for just sesame, but roughly 10%
             | of Americans have some form of allergy[0]. I'm guessing the
             | reasoning here is to attempt to prevent "allergen creep",
             | where the endgame would be major manufacturers throwing
             | their hands up and listing most products as possibly
             | containing many allergens (or, as in this case,
             | intentionally introducing unnecessary ingredients). If this
             | were to happen, we would expect a number approaching 10% of
             | consumers to have a needlessly large selection of foods
             | they couldn't reliably purchase, even if there would be
             | negligible risk otherwise.
             | 
             | At that point, the usefulness of requiring the labels to
             | begin with is considerably diminished. Having a cottage
             | industry of "actually correctly labeled" foods because the
             | standard labels are poorly enforced seems inefficient,
             | IMHO.
             | 
             | [0]https://www.foodallergy.org/resources/facts-and-
             | statistics
        
         | Miner49er wrote:
         | The food manufacturer is supposed to follow GMP and prevent
         | allergens for being in foods they shouldn't be in.
        
       | eulgro wrote:
       | I used to work in a cookie factory, we often made products for
       | private brands and in some recipes we purposefully added eggs so
       | that it would appear as an ingredient and not "may contain traces
       | of".
        
         | scop wrote:
         | Any other interesting tidbits from working in a cookie factory?
         | I'm genuinely curious.
        
           | dxbydt wrote:
           | if you must know, there is a policy to handle cookies. There
           | is also a manager for all the cookies. This manager tracks
           | all the cookie handlers. The cookies themselves are stored in
           | a cookie store. While legend has it Arthur Van Hoff designed
           | this whole setup, if you look closely in java.net, the author
           | of CookiePolicy, CookieHandler, CookieManager and CookieStore
           | is actually Edward Wang. Anyways it is not important. Since
           | one cannot maintain a session without session cookie,
           | effectively the entire human population on the internet works
           | in the cookie factory.
        
         | autoexec wrote:
         | Exactly the kind of thing the FDA has a problem with:
         | 
         | > "Because it can be difficult and expensive to keep sesame in
         | one part of a baking plant out of another, some companies began
         | adding small amounts of sesame to products that didn't
         | previously contain the ingredient to avoid liability and cost.
         | FDA officials said that violated the spirit, but not the
         | letter, of federal regulations."
         | 
         | It seems that they prefer the "may contain" wording:
         | 
         | > FDA officials acknowledged Tuesday that statements that a
         | product "may contain" certain allergens "could be considered
         | truthful and not misleading."
         | 
         | As a consumer, I'd much rather know for sure if a food has
         | something in it that could kill me in it. If companies really
         | want add allergens to their products unnecessarily, disclose
         | that unambiguously, and limit their pool of potential customers
         | that seems better to me than companies just slapping on a label
         | saying that the product might contain every possible deadly
         | allergen and letting customers take their chances or avoid them
         | entirely.
        
           | kayodelycaon wrote:
           | "May contain" often refers to cross-contamination. For some
           | people small amounts of allergens will not cause a problem.
        
             | autoexec wrote:
             | Which is one reason why some people will be tempted to roll
             | the dice and end up dead or in the ER. It's much better to
             | just know if something is in your food that will kill you.
             | It doesn't help that repeated exposure to an allergen can
             | cause a person's sensitivity to that allergen and the
             | severity of their reaction to increase.
             | 
             | Companies who want to sell their products to people with
             | allergies should be required to actually spend the time and
             | money to be reasonably sure that their products won't kill
             | them. Instead companies want to be able to avoid that
             | expense and just slap on a "Probably safe, but who knows?"
             | label and hope that people with allergies will just buy the
             | product and take their chances.
        
               | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
               | This is a very odd take to me given the focus of the
               | article is that companies are explicitly saying "If you
               | have severe allergies, don't buy this product", but the
               | FDA is saying this isn't good enough. That is, the whole
               | focus of the article is that these companies _don 't_
               | want to sell to consumers who may have severe allergies.
               | 
               | Honestly, I side with the companies on this one. It's
               | just a matter of incentives - if the consequence of
               | "getting it wrong" (i.e. saying a product is free of an
               | allergen but then through some chance of cross-
               | contamination that it ends up killing somebody) are
               | enormous, I think it's hard to fault a company that then
               | decides to explicitly add nuts, sesame, etc. to a product
               | and explicitly state "You should not eat this if you have
               | allergies."
               | 
               | More to your point, though, when you say "Which is one
               | reason why some people will be tempted to roll the dice
               | and end up dead or in the ER", I think that's huge
               | hyperbole. Every single person I've ever known that has a
               | severe allergy never "rolls the dice", and on the
               | contrary they are extremely diligent about double
               | checking that what they eat is allergen free. On the flip
               | side, I've known people that have mild allergies to
               | products (e.g. symptoms are on the level of lactose
               | intolerance) who don't worry about avoiding trace amounts
               | of allergens. Why conflate these 2 cases? I have
               | certainly never known actual people with these differing
               | levels of allergies to confuse their issues.
        
               | autoexec wrote:
               | I agree that the FDA got this one wrong and it's just
               | better to have companies add the allergen than just put
               | on a "maybe" label.
               | 
               | The problem with making it okay to just put a "this may
               | or may not kill you" label on products is that more and
               | more companies will do it just to shield themselves from
               | liability regardless of what is in their foods (it's
               | cheaper to add a label and not add an unnecessary
               | ingredient than to add the ingredient and also label your
               | product) so we seem to agree there. When every company
               | has a "this might kill you, but maybe not" label just to
               | cover their asses, large amounts of products are then
               | made off limits to people who don't want to take the
               | risk. When every company is using the "may contain" label
               | as a shield and people start to think "Every company just
               | puts that label on everything even when it's perfectly
               | safe" they will take more chances too.
               | 
               | > Every single person I've ever known that has a severe
               | allergy never "rolls the dice",...I've known people that
               | have mild allergies to products (e.g. symptoms are on the
               | level of lactose intolerance) who don't worry about
               | avoiding trace amounts of allergens.
               | 
               | Again, the problem is that when people with mild
               | allergies to products keep eating them it can cause them
               | to have a severe allergic reaction and that leads to
               | deaths and ER visits. It's not hyperbole, it's fact.
               | Repeated exposure can increase severity and sensitivity
               | and so people who feel safe with trace amounts because
               | they have "always" only had a mild reaction in the past
               | do roll the dice and some of them lose. Those people are
               | also less likely to have epi pens to save them when they
               | finally do run into trouble.
               | 
               | All the people you've known are welcome to keep playing
               | that game, but generally the smart thing is to always
               | avoid foods that you know cause your immune system to
               | react no matter how mildly unless you're doing it under
               | care of a doctor.
        
               | floxy wrote:
               | >Repeated exposure can increase severity and sensitivity
               | 
               | Where can one learn more about this? I thought allergy
               | immunotherapy was about repeated exposure to the
               | allergen. I'm not up to speed on allergies. Does anyone
               | know how many sesame related allergy deaths there are in
               | the U.S.?
               | 
               | https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/latest-
               | research-s...
        
         | ClassyJacket wrote:
         | Vegans hate this. Always happens with milk powder.
        
       | gumby wrote:
       | FWIW Bimbo (a Mexican company) is the largest baking company in
       | north america -- when you go to the typical grocery store almost
       | all the baked goods will be from Bimbo regardless of the label
       | (https://bimbobakeriesusa.com/our-brands)
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | Why are some of their brands just pictures of sandwiches?
        
           | lotsofpulp wrote:
           | Whatever the 7th row, 4th column is, it does not look
           | appetizing.
        
             | gumby wrote:
             | I don't know, cinnamon bread french toast with sauteed
             | apricots and cockroaches is a mix of carbs, fiber and
             | protein, though probably should have more protein for a
             | better nutritional balance.
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | They added the cockroaches to get the protein count up.
        
             | orange_fritter wrote:
             | There's probably just some ~Wordpress dev who picked from a
             | selection of B-Roll. The CEO probably marginally
             | understands bread and isn't a raisin french toast peanut
             | butter freak.
        
               | Washuu wrote:
               | > raisin french toast peanut butter freak
               | 
               | I want this so badly right now.
        
           | Jtsummers wrote:
           | They're filling out the grid. There are 31 brands (if I
           | counted correctly) which doesn't fill out any grid other than
           | 1x31 or 31x1. They filled it out to 40 because that gives a
           | nice grid at the larger size (4x10) and smaller windows
           | (2x20) while not leaving any empty spaces.
           | 
           | If they kept it with 31 there'd be empty space at any
           | reasonable column count (2, 3, 4, 5, 6). Past 4-6 columns it
           | starts getting too busy across the screen (subjective). They
           | seem to have capped it at 4, it drops to 2 and then 1 as you
           | narrow the page.
           | 
           | One filler image works at each of those sizes, but then it's
           | odd to have a single filler image. Pushing it to 9 gives a
           | ratio approaching 3:1 brand:filler images, someone looked at
           | that and said "That looks better". The filler images are
           | placed, it appears, next to their associated brand (the
           | cupcakes and Sara Lee, as an example).
        
             | thfuran wrote:
             | But cropping to circle/hexagon and offsetting alternate
             | rows, with 3 rows of five between four of four obviates the
             | need for weird filler sandwiches. Then you can just tell
             | people with other screen sizes to go away to somewhere with
             | less perfection.
        
         | givemeethekeys wrote:
         | Maybe this is why all these breads use such a large list of
         | ingredients that don't sound like food.
        
         | floxy wrote:
         | >when you go to the typical grocery store almost all the baked
         | goods will be from Bimbo regardless of the label
         | 
         | Are those those the only brands they produce? I only recognize
         | 3 of those brands, and I can't even be sure I've ever eaten
         | more than one of those. Maybe they are big only in certain
         | regions?
        
       | rdtsc wrote:
       | So I don't get it why the bakeries didn't go for the "may
       | contain" wording to start with. I guess one was the first to use
       | "does contain" and then purposefully added sesame, everyone else
       | thought that was particularly "clever" and copied it?
        
         | underseacables wrote:
         | I think it has to do with the FDAs' extremely limited
         | authority. To really remove a product, they have to use the
         | federal trade commission to declare something as misbranded.
         | Similar to what they do with dietary supplements.
        
       | underseacables wrote:
       | This seems overkill. We should want to encourage food
       | manufacturers to list all possible contaminants.
        
         | VBprogrammer wrote:
         | The driver should be to give people with allergies the
         | information they need to know whether they can eat something
         | safely.
         | 
         | Allowing companies to list every possible contaminant
         | regardless of how likely it is to be in a product doesn't help
         | anyone. It just leads to the "contents may be hot" problem on a
         | coffee.
        
           | tracker1 wrote:
           | Well... the FDA won't allow companies to just list "may
           | contain" for sesame, they have to have effectively multiple
           | plants in complete isolation, or... add a tiny bit of sesame
           | to everything and affirmatively state so.
           | 
           | In this case, I prefer the "may contain" verbiage... saying
           | something "does not contain" is a practical minefield. If
           | you're that sensitive to something, find a producer that
           | makes what you're asking for, or if you can tolerate a small
           | amount, or make your own food from basic ingredients.
        
       | umvi wrote:
       | At this point it seems like it might be more effective to mandate
       | the opposite: labels that indicate that the product is allergen
       | free for X class of allergen.
       | 
       | That way the default (no label) = might contain allergens, and
       | the presence of the label guarantees your safety.
       | 
       | Companies that take allergen cross contamination seriously can
       | tout the label (and win the business of the allergic), companies
       | that don't won't resort to purposefully including allergens in
       | their product to avoid having to overhaul their cross
       | contamination practices.
        
         | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
         | This makes sense from a practical standpoint, but from a
         | litigative standpoint not having the warning label on those
         | products with allergens exposes the company to liability.
         | 
         | I also suspect that if there is an incident, this company might
         | be able to have the government found liable for preventing it
         | from warning customers.
        
           | underseacables wrote:
           | _the government found liable for preventing it from warning
           | customers._
           | 
           | Very interesting idea. I wonder if there is a similar
           | situation in which the government prevented a company from
           | alerting customers to something.
           | 
           | The only thing I can come up with is FISA warrants.
        
           | umvi wrote:
           | Seems to have worked for gluten, at least. i.e. Consumers
           | look for "gluten free" labelling rather than "This product
           | contains gluten" labelling.
           | 
           | If I were the FDA I'd standardize the nutrition label to have
           | a clearly labelled allergen section in which you can reliably
           | use to check that the product is free of X allergen. Of
           | course a naive implementation of this would mean that water
           | bottles and stuff will have a big long list of "gluten free,
           | peanut free, dairy free" so it probably requires a bit more
           | thought.
        
             | john01dav wrote:
             | It's fine to have such long lists because the alternative
             | is more complicated rules that might even be subjective.
             | Clarity from subjectivity or mistakes with complicated
             | rules is more important when safety is at risk than having
             | less text on a label.
        
             | nsilvestri wrote:
             | As someone who can't eat gluten, we look for that label
             | because gluten isn't included as one of the mandatory
             | allergens in the US. I would prefer if things were simply
             | labelled as "contains gluten" because instead I have to
             | evaluate the ingredients of things without a GF label to
             | see if it's suitable.
        
             | samtho wrote:
             | "Gluten free" is a little different because gluten is a
             | protein not only found in wheat, but also wheat derivatives
             | like spelt, semolina, graham, and other grains like barley,
             | rye, and malt.
             | 
             | This is different from a wheat allergy, in fact, its also
             | not an "allergen" in the same way that peanuts are
             | (digestive problems vs anaphylaxis), and would probably be
             | better classified as an intolerance similar to lactose
             | (which is covered by milk but is also an indirect indicator
             | of lactose that can be a false positive because lactose
             | free milk exists).
        
         | Miner49er wrote:
         | It's an interesting idea, but the end result would probably be
         | less options for people with allergies (unless they risk foods
         | that appear to be safe, but lack the label.)
         | 
         | We already have this type of labelling for gluten free foods,
         | and one common complaint in the celiac community is that gluten
         | should also be a major allergen. This would help greatly in
         | deciding if a product is safe for people with celiac, since
         | many products are but manufacturers don't bother putting GF
         | labels on them.
        
       | kurthr wrote:
       | When Bimbo first changed Orowheat ingredients in their oat wheat
       | bread (pre-pandemic) they didn't announce it.
       | 
       | I searched the web to figure out what happened since even the
       | weight of the bread was noticeably off (tried weighing it on a
       | scale). The new on-line label of ingredients, nutrition, and
       | weight were ~10% off (over an oz), but they were still using the
       | old labeled bags and upc/barcode.
       | 
       | I returned some to the grocery and let them know that all the
       | ones on the shelf were also not the labeled weight. They were
       | very annoyed.
        
       | owenpalmer wrote:
       | I wonder if claiming non-existent ingredients could be an actual
       | health risk as well. For example, if someone had unrelated but
       | similar symptoms after eating the product. I wouldn't be
       | surprised if certain medications cause harm if taken by someone
       | who is not actually having the allergic reaction they are
       | intended to treat.
        
       | sandworm101 wrote:
       | Product idea: Allergen slurry. A tasteless/colorless paste
       | containing all known allergens. Put a tiny drop in every batch of
       | product (or at least claim to) and you can slap on an omni-label
       | dissuading anyone and everyone who has even seen an allergist.
        
       | infecto wrote:
       | I think this is a sham and the FDA is overstepping. 0.2% of the
       | population have sesame allergies. Maybe its higher the recent
       | numbers I saw from a government study gave this number.
        
         | jurassicfoxy wrote:
         | Isn't it about establishing a framework that people can trust,
         | and closing loopholes? Just because the specifics are about
         | sesame seeds, isn't that how the law works? Some stupid
         | specific case forms the groundwork for the entire system?
        
           | infecto wrote:
           | I don't know honestly. I understand the spirit of it but I
           | also don't believe a customer should not have to serve
           | markets that it chooses not too. My point which I did not get
           | to very well is that I think the FDA is in a weird spot. I
           | understand their side but I also wonder how a bakery can
           | legally and with the spirit of the law decide to not serve
           | customers with allergies.
        
       | bluelightning2k wrote:
       | Doesn't this incentivise them to deliberately add allergens, so
       | they can keep them on the label
        
       | antiquark wrote:
       | FDA is talking out of both sides of their mouth. From their own
       | website:
       | 
       | > Consumers may also see advisory statements such as "may contain
       | [allergen] or "produced in a facility that also uses [allergen]."
       | Such statements are not required by law and can be used to
       | address unavoidable "cross-contact," only if manufacturers have
       | incorporated good manufacturing processes in their facility and
       | have taken every precaution to avoid cross-contact that can occur
       | when multiple foods with different allergen profiles are produced
       | in the same facility using shared equipment or on the same
       | production line, as the result of ineffective cleaning, or from
       | the generation of dust or aerosols containing an allergen.
       | 
       | https://www.fda.gov/food/food-labeling-nutrition/food-allerg...
        
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