[HN Gopher] The Forth Deck mini: a portable Forth computer with ...
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The Forth Deck mini: a portable Forth computer with a discrete CPU
Author : hggh
Score : 119 points
Date : 2024-06-26 20:12 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mynor.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (mynor.org)
| artemonster wrote:
| I have used to have an obsession with Forth and discrete CPUs
| when I was a teenager (if you google hard enough you will find an
| ancient webring of homebuilt CPUs out of discrete components),
| this obsession led me to my profession now - Digital Hardware
| Designer. My heart fills with joy when I see such posts at top of
| HN :) Great work!
| pushfoo wrote:
| TL;DR: Looks like a step toward the AlphaSmart of programming
|
| If you don't remember the AlphaSmart[1], it was a line of
| typewriter-like devices with small LCD displays. They ran on
| batteries for hours and had limited save space. You could hook
| them up to a larger computer to save your drafts.
|
| Where's the programming version of that? The recent HN post[2]
| about running a Mac 128k on a RPI2040[3] got me thinking about
| that. In theory, you could get real work done on a system like
| that, although it wouldn't be very good for entertainment.
|
| So, where's the AlphaSmart of low-power computing?
|
| 1. "Real" keyboard
|
| 2. Low-power display, ideally a larger e-ink one
|
| 3. Not connected to the internet
|
| To be clear, I don't mean a TI-83-like[4], TI-92[5], or even the
| recent NumWorks[6]. Those are meant to be calculators and have
| inconvenient calculator-like form-factors.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart
|
| [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40699684
|
| [3]: https://axio.ms/projects/2024/06/16/MicroMac.html
|
| [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-83_series
|
| [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-92_series
|
| [6]: https://www.numworks.com/
| voltaireodactyl wrote:
| Even just an e ink alphasmart would be killer -- the key
| feature for me was the Mac keyboard + shortcuts so I never had
| to think while using it.
| pushfoo wrote:
| TL;DR: Freewrite[1] tries but it isn't the same
|
| They are selling a line of professionally oriented devices.
| I'm not sure they're worth it.
|
| * The "Alpha" model[2] nods to the AlphaSmart form factor,
| but it isn't e-ink
|
| * Weird-looking keyboard layouts with no Apple-style key in
| sight
|
| * These devices are expensive for what they seem to offer
|
| I've never used one so I can't really speak about more than
| what I've seen on the site. There were some negative reviews
| of earlier models. I'm not sure how current ones rate, nor
| what their keyboard feels like.
|
| [1]: https://getfreewrite.com/
|
| [2]: https://getfreewrite.com/products/alpha
| kragen wrote:
| i've been wanting that for years myself, and with the advent of
| sharp's memory-in-pixel lcd displays and ambiq's subthreshold-
| logic arm microcontrollers, it's become possible to make it
| work under a milliwatt, which means it can run purely on solar
| power without batteries, using parallel nand flash for mass
| storage at a low duty cycle. i haven't progressed beyond the
| earliest prototyping stage myself; my design notes on the so-
| called zorzpad (mostly in spanish) are in
| http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/zorzpad.git/ and za3k vance has
| been working on a project inspired by it called the zorchpad
| https://blog.za3k.com/tag/zorchpad/
|
| the primary objective of the zorzpad is longevity, with a
| design lifetime of 53 years. to reach that objective i think i
| can't use batteries, charging ports, or off-the-shelf
| keyswitches. this forces a lot of compromises on the system
| design; i haven't found a processor with an mmu that can run at
| under a milliwatt
|
| ("zorzpad" is a pun on "thinkpad"; it's pronounced "thorthpad"
| in some spanish dialects, so it's the opposite of a thinkpad)
|
| i think e-ink displays probably use way too much power. for
| years i've been looking for solid power consumption numbers,
| but in their absence, dividing an amazon swindle's battery life
| by its battery capacity suggests that they use about 100
| milliwatts. the zorzpad's e-ink displays are about a tenth as
| big, use about a thousandth as much power (100 microwatts), and
| can be updated at 60 hertz (though the datasheet only
| guarantees 20)
|
| if you aren't worried about going batteryless, or about mass
| production, you could literally buy an alphasmart neo and wire
| its keyboard and display up to an esp32 or something
| e63f67dd-065b wrote:
| My understanding is that eink only uses power on refresh; if
| you don't change the image, the pigments remain where they
| are and draw no power.
| kragen wrote:
| yes, that's right. so there's a refresh rate crossover
| point at which e-ink actually uses less power. my
| calculations from the very uncertain information i have is
| that it's around 20 minutes. that is, if you update the
| display once every five minutes, the e-ink display will use
| significantly more power than the memory-in-lcd display
| updating 60 times a second. there are real limits to the
| utility of a computer that needs several minutes to redraw
| its display; though i wouldn't venture to say that it's
| useless, you can't do anything similar to a conventional
| gui on it
| kristopolous wrote:
| The hisense e-ink phones are known to have week long
| battery lives (A5 and A9) so I'm thinking not all e-ink
| is the same. I know there's e-ink nerds out there and
| forums dedicated to it but I don't actually know the
| different types (here's an overview I think:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper). Maybe
| the good stuff is harder to find
| pushfoo wrote:
| TL;DR: I love this idea and have two questions:
|
| 1. For early iterations / similar projects, could all-metal
| screw terminals[1] accept power internally?
|
| 2. Would supporting UXN/Varvara[2] be an option?
|
| More on these questions below after initial comments.
|
| ## Initial Comments
|
| > if you aren't worried about going batteryless, or about
| mass production, you could literally buy an alphasmart neo
| and wire its keyboard and display up to an esp32 or something
|
| I could, but it's a limited in availability. The keyboard is
| pretty important in my opinion.
|
| > memory-in-pixel lcd displays
|
| I vaguely remember hearing about this, but don't have the EE
| knowledge to judge the benefits of these. Data sheet for
| anyone interested: https://www.sharpsde.com/fileadmin/product
| s/Displays/Specs/L...
|
| ## 1. The screw terminal:
|
| Disclaimer: I'm not an EE specialist.
|
| My understanding is that if the power loss isn't too great,
| an all-metal internal screw terminal[1] might improve device
| durability:
|
| * The power source could be replaceable. AA, AAA, LiPo,
| solar, etc
|
| * If you don't solder to the metal part, even sandpaper or a
| conveniently shaped rock could remove oxidation
|
| * For a case, internal screw terminals could turn a charging
| port into an easily replaceable component
|
| ## 2. UXN/Varvara:
|
| From your blog, I see an "artemis apollo 3 board"[3] is being
| used. From a Sparkfun page[4], it seems to have enough ram to
| host graphical Varvara.
|
| I was initially doubtful of UXN despite loving the idea, but:
|
| 1. The UXN community seems to have built a self-hosting
| ecosystem[5] of: * development and GUI ROM
| launching tools * text, font, and graphics
| editors * music sequencing tools
|
| 2. The UXN VM is light: 64k system ram, 4-bit 2-plane color,
| and misc state and debug
|
| 3. The core UXN VM is simple: a minimal implementation fits
| in under 150 lines[6] of C89
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_terminal
|
| [2]: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/varvara.html
|
| [3]: https://blog.za3k.com/zorchpad-update-cardboard-mockup-
| mk1/
|
| [4]: https://www.sparkfun.com/artemis
|
| [5]: https://github.com/hundredrabbits/awesome-uxn
|
| [6]: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/etc/uxnmin.c.txt
| bloopernova wrote:
| An e-ink with an HDMI input would be fantastic.
| rom16384 wrote:
| Dasung makes e-ink monitors, with an HDMI input, such as the
| Dasung Paperlike.
| cancerhacker wrote:
| TRS-80 Model 100 seriously fits the bill. Basic, word processor
| and spreadsheet in ROM, pixel addressable display, fabulous
| keyboard for its size. RS-232 and 300bps modem. The recent
| Clockwork-PI evokes it - but the keyboard is a toy and then
| it's just a Linux laptop with all the distractions therein. The
| Model 100 was carried by journalists well into the 90s, to
| compose and upload stories to service bureaus.
| Jun8 wrote:
| I had one and in a moment of greed sold it :-( What I loved
| about it was:
|
| * Used regular batteries, no charging, easily obtainable,
| lasts _quite_ a bit
|
| * Keyboard was awesome
|
| * Retro look & feel
|
| * Size
|
| What I didn't like:
|
| * 8 line display is tiny!
|
| * Would prefer a bit smaller
|
| * Getting data off is a pain (ether are many workarounds but
| you have to fiddle with it)
|
| So, assuming a $200 price point and using the 5x rule of
| thumb for HW products, BOM should be $40. Problem is eInk
| displays are kind of expensive. Putting $15-ish for a 7-inch+
| display, rest seems bearable doable. (I've never developed a
| consumer HW product, so these are wild guesses.)
| Jun8 wrote:
| I would plunk down $199 _right now_ for a basic version of this
| (more with extra features, e.g. WiFi, expansion lot, etc). My
| key use case would be using in on planes, esp. when the jerk in
| the from title their seat all the way back.
| fragmede wrote:
| I'd say the Cardputuer is closest to what you're asking for.
|
| https://docs.m5stack.com/en/core/Cardputer
| simlevesque wrote:
| woah, four lines display ? that's luxury. I remember coding on a
| single line display, kids these days...
| rbanffy wrote:
| My Epson HX-20 has 4 lines but only 20 characters each.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| Hmmm... http://collapseos.org/forth.html
| xlii wrote:
| There's implementation of Forth for Cardputter[0] if anyone is
| interested. I tried to boot it and it worked.
|
| I'm not a Forth enthusiast myself but was thinking about doing
| something with Uiua, as I think it's really fun toy language for
| such application.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/ryu10/M5CardForth
| andypiper wrote:
| Oh, interesting. Would that be installable OTA using
| M5Launcher?
| mongol wrote:
| Reminds me about Oric-1
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oric_(computer)...
| mjg59 wrote:
| Some prior art in terms of computers with built-in Forth
| interpreters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ace
|
| And, of course, the Open Firmware used on Suns, PowerPC Macs, the
| One Laptop per Child, and others made use of Forth (including for
| the ROMs in expansion cards, allowing them to be CPU-agnostic):
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware
| phire wrote:
| I love reading about optimised Discrete CPUs like this.
|
| Only 16 logic ICs. Doesn't even have an adder, the only ALU
| function is a 1 bit Nor gate.
|
| Details on this page: http://mynor.org/my4th.htm
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