[HN Gopher] I found a 1-click exploit in South Korea's biggest m...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       I found a 1-click exploit in South Korea's biggest mobile chat app
        
       Author : stulle123
       Score  : 148 points
       Date   : 2024-06-24 15:01 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (stulle123.github.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (stulle123.github.io)
        
       | Shank wrote:
       | > However, we didn't receive any reward as only Koreans are
       | eligible to receive a bounty
       | 
       | Talk about discouragement for research. KakaoTalk is huge -- the
       | equivalent of WhatsApp for EU people or LINE in Japan. Many
       | foreigners learning Korean use KakaoTalk to chat, so this
       | definitely affects people outside of the country. Restricting
       | payment to just Koreans is objectively a terrible decision, as it
       | endangers their users for no discernible reason.
        
         | snaeker58 wrote:
         | I can see some executive being sneaky and saving 0.0001% of all
         | their expenses.
        
         | unsupp0rted wrote:
         | KakaoTalk is huge in the sense that it's almost impossible to
         | find any Korean person, teenager or adult, who doesn't use it
         | daily.
         | 
         | It'd be like finding a person who doesn't use electricity.
        
         | its-summertime wrote:
         | > KakaoTalk is huge -- the equivalent of WhatsApp for EU people
         | or LINE in Japan
         | 
         | I feel that doesn't really describe it well, one should look
         | into the respective product listings for these companies to get
         | a proper idea of the scope of potential damages that could
         | occur.
         | 
         | https://www.kakaocorp.com/page/service/service
         | 
         | https://line.me/en/#allProduct
         | 
         | WhatsApp is only just getting into the complete ecosystem side
         | of things with Meta Pay. Google as a company is probably more
         | representative of scale
         | 
         | https://about.google/products/#all-products
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | That kind of stuff is what Musk chases with X, by the way.
           | It's his once-a-lifetime bet, even bigger than SpaceX and
           | Tesla _combined_ - succeed in delivering a  "one for
           | everything" Asian-style app to the Western ecosystem and you
           | have a money printer of unfathomable power. Had he not
           | completely destroyed all trust in the brand Twitter/X, I'd
           | think he'd have a serious chance of achieving that goal.
           | 
           | The _really_ interesting thing, IMO, is where Facebook went
           | off the rails. They have the moat with literal billions of
           | people using their apps already, they got real names,
           | addresses, location data, in some cases (legacy Whatsapp
           | users, people who ever ran ads) payment data, Facebook
           | already has sort of a  "shop" solution with Marketplace...
           | but they don't seem to be attractive at all, or doing
           | anything innovative. It's all Metaverse or whatever.
        
             | its-summertime wrote:
             | Meta was probably against pushing super hard to avoid the
             | kind of situation that X is now in.
        
               | jacobgkau wrote:
               | How do you mean? The situation with X seems mostly to do
               | with marketing (people not liking the owner & his
               | behavior) and bots, with maybe a little bit of
               | instability thrown in. As noted elsewhere in the thread,
               | Facebook already has experience with a bunch of different
               | types of services-- from the games they used to host, to
               | Marketplace mentioned elsewhere in the thread, to event
               | management rivaling Meetup & Eventbrite, and even a
               | dating app. X talks about being an "everything app," but
               | they really just have posts (with media) and that's their
               | only feature to date. Facebook does a lot more. So I
               | don't see how pushing harder on non-social features would
               | make them any more like X is right now.
        
             | numpad0 wrote:
             | It's not just Facebook that "failed" to build the so-called
             | superapps, none of Western private chat apps company had
             | done it, let alone social media, or _any_ app from anyone
             | with strong C-class leadership and lean bureaucracy for
             | that matter.
             | 
             | The way those "superapps" grow the "apps" is middle
             | management doing his personal projects on corporate
             | microservice infrastructure and IC hire upper management
             | succumbing to bureaucracy. Thanks to bureaucracy, some
             | brand integrity is maintained, and that kind of makes money
             | anyway as company side gigs. After it goes garbage in and
             | out of translation, the whole company doings end up on BBC
             | as Oriental wonder superapps.
             | 
             | SoftBank subsidiary owns LINE. So do Masayoshi Son even
             | know how many individual sub-apps there are or who's under
             | who running what? I highly doubt it. And I also highly
             | doubt a control freak like Musk can even bear that kind of
             | situation; he'd personally dragged out a server rack out of
             | an NTT datacenter without going through rituals and
             | ceremonies, which made a web article by itself. None of
             | superapp operators seem to have that kind of boss.
        
               | bobthepanda wrote:
               | the fact of the matter is that there are massive
               | differences in consumer opinion. Western markets prefer
               | specialist companies that do one thing really well,
               | whereas in East Asia people often prefer trusted
               | conglomerates.
               | 
               | As a general example, department stores are much
               | healthier in Japan and Korea, whereas in the US they were
               | hollowed out by specialty clothing retailers, specialty
               | makeup retailers, etc. and then finally kicked over by
               | online shopping.
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | > None of superapp operators seem to have that kind of
               | boss.
               | 
               | But they also don't have the shareholder/activist
               | investor pressure that Western companies face.
               | 
               | To achieve "superapp" size, you need to have either a
               | strong leader personality driving the push by their sheer
               | will and vision and especially with enough
               | authority/financial power to overrule investors - people
               | like Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg
               | - or you need to be one of the Asian ultra-
               | conglomerate/"chaebol" companies that have absurd amounts
               | of money flowing through them that enterprising middle
               | managers can divert.
               | 
               | Unfortunately, with the exception of the visionaries I
               | mentioned, corporate America and Europe just doesn't have
               | many company founders with both clear visions and a
               | backbone, and there's (partially "thanks" to de-
               | conglomerisation trends of the 90s and later like with
               | German giant Siemens) nothing at all left that comes even
               | close to the diversification of revenue that Samsung has.
        
       | snaeker58 wrote:
       | Crazy that only Koreans are eligible for bounty rewards. Someone
       | is going to put their morals aside in the future and their
       | customers are going to be the victims. Also I'm pretty sure a
       | large part of government officials in Korea use KakaoTalk?
       | 
       | But hey at least they actually took action...
        
         | ffhhj wrote:
         | Taxes?
        
           | laz wrote:
           | Non-Koreans who live and work in South Korea pay South Korean
           | taxes
        
             | nextworddev wrote:
             | Don't think most Digital Nomads in South Korea pay any
             | South Korean taxes
        
               | ddoolin wrote:
               | There are many non-Korean non-digital-nomads living and
               | working in South Korea who do pay taxes. Millions,
               | actually. South Korea has a very large international
               | residency.
        
         | localfirst wrote:
         | It is rather strange isn't it? After all it seems like author
         | of the article isn't Korean, would benefit KakaoTalk to just
         | pay a bounty to him.
         | 
         | KakaoTalk is huge. Can't do anything in Korea without it.
        
       | siva7 wrote:
       | Reminds me how the telegram founder boasted how talented his team
       | is as only one developer was responsible for writing the mobile
       | client. Turns out that client was riddled with bugs that
       | displayed messages to the wrong user. A mobile chat app shouldn't
       | be developed with the mantra "move fast and break things" yet
       | this is the natural product result of all-in-one apps like kakao.
        
         | inquirerGeneral wrote:
         | Was this a decade ago? I've been following Telegram development
         | for over five years and never heard of this
        
           | sunaookami wrote:
           | Telegram user since 2014 and never heard of it. This
           | definitely never happened.
        
         | bluesign wrote:
         | To be fair to telegram; similar things happened to many big
         | names: facebook, google, apple etc
        
           | lxgr wrote:
           | Delivering messages to the wrong recipient!? Examples,
           | please!
        
             | webappguy wrote:
             | Curious to know more. Will search but if anyone finds
             | anything
        
             | wiseowise wrote:
             | How could client deliver messages to the wrong recipient?
             | Why would client have messages for user outside of the one
             | logged in anyway?
        
               | ascar wrote:
               | Seems like a rather easy thing to go wrong in the client,
               | no?
               | 
               | User sends message via client. Client fumbles the
               | recipient id. Message ends up at the wrong recipient.
               | 
               | Examples: incorrect recipient ID attached to contact in
               | list where users selects recipient. Buggy selection of
               | multiple targets in the selection UI due to incorrect
               | touch event handling. Incorrect deletion of previously
               | selected and then deselected recipient from recipient
               | array of multitarget message. Or if working low level
               | even a good old off by one error and reading out of
               | bounds data for the recipient list (though that one
               | hopefully should trigger a faulty send request due to
               | other stuff no longer matching). There is endless
               | examples.
               | 
               | The server can't really safeguard against the client
               | providing a legitimate send request even though the user
               | intended to send it to another recipient.
        
             | ChrisClark wrote:
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27950763
             | 
             | Yeah, I don't know how they manage to get bugs like that,
             | but it's happened
        
         | IncreasePosts wrote:
         | Do you mean something like the mobile app had multiple user
         | accounts added to it, and it displayed messages for one account
         | in the other account? Otherwise it seems more like a server bug
         | than a client bug?
        
         | BiteCode_dev wrote:
         | Chat apps are hard, this doesn't strike me as a proof of bad
         | quality as many competitors had such bugs.
         | 
         | And Telegram has been so far the most reliable, feature full
         | and easy to use chat app I have had to use.
        
           | lxgr wrote:
           | Which other chat app has displayed messages to the wrong
           | users? That seems like one of the worst things a chat app
           | could possibly ever do.
        
             | asddubs wrote:
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27950763
        
               | EGreg wrote:
               | Wow, touche
               | 
               | And in an Apples-to-Apples comparison, WhatsApp fared far
               | worse than Telegram on privacy, and not to mention its
               | parent company.
               | 
               | The only benefit I can think of WhatsApp has is claiming
               | to be encrypted _by default_. So I dont need to press an
               | extra button. I just have to take their word for it.
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | > And in an Apples-to-Apples comparison, WhatsApp fared
               | far worse than Telegram on privacy, and not to mention
               | its parent company.
               | 
               | I'd like to see that comparison. Considering that
               | WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted, and Telegram
               | persistently stores almost all of their users' messages
               | on their backend in a way that lets them read them, I
               | find that very hard to believe.
               | 
               | > So I dont need to press an extra button.
               | 
               | Nobody presses an extra button, especially not one that
               | opts you out of multi-device support.
        
               | BiteCode_dev wrote:
               | Whatsapp is not open source and facebook was part of the
               | PRISM program.
               | 
               | I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to actually
               | be e2e encrypted.
               | 
               | Espacially since Zuckerberg has many years of poor track
               | record for privacy, and made the famous quote "they trust
               | me the dumb fucks"
        
               | EGreg wrote:
               | Exactly! Good points. Facebook's been caught spying on
               | you with audio, video, contacts, cameras you name it.
               | What makes the true believers so sure their WhatsApp
               | chats are really E2E encrypted and FB cant decrypt them
               | and isnt scanning at the edge? LMAO
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | > Facebook's been caught spying on you with audio, video,
               | contacts, cameras you name it.
               | 
               | For contacts: I have no expectations of any contact
               | privacy on WhatsApp. It's known and documented [1] that
               | they upload your entire phone book for contact matching.
               | Private set intersection would be better, but I don't see
               | anything sneaky going on.
               | 
               | Audio, video, cameras: What are you referring to?
               | 
               | > What makes the true believers so sure their WhatsApp
               | chats are really E2E encrypted and FB cant decrypt them
               | and isnt scanning at the edge?
               | 
               | The amount of scrutiny they're under from security
               | researchers worldwide, and the fact that many governments
               | are currently throwing a fit about not being able to gain
               | access to the data either.
               | 
               | [1] https://faq.whatsapp.com/1191526044909364
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | So we have one app that claims to be end-to-end encrypted
               | and is under intense scrutiny of security researchers
               | across the world, and another one that's provably not
               | encrypted and stores everything server side. Which one
               | should I use?
        
             | BiteCode_dev wrote:
             | Also whatsapp: https://www.reddit.com/r/whatsapp/comments/1
             | 8eikrz/whatsapp_...
             | 
             | Discord: https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/18dfm
             | iw/discord...
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | That's a single point of anecdata from Reddit, as far as
               | I can tell at least for the WhatsApp one.
               | 
               | The Signal one somebody has posted in the adjacent thread
               | was definitely real and horrible though:
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27950763
               | 
               | The fact that at least two heavily-used messengers got
               | one of the most essential things in instant messaging
               | wrong is nightmare fuel I didn't need to have in my life
               | :(
        
               | BiteCode_dev wrote:
               | We just had the xz crisis and that surprises you?
               | 
               | IT is just a series of security breaches.
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | Don't shift goal posts, please. A supply chain attack and
               | a service sending private messages to the wrong recipient
               | are very different issues.
        
             | gsa wrote:
             | Google:
             | https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/sep/26/google-
             | pr...
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | Wow, I'm truly baffled! Is this a rite of passage for
               | instant messenger developers!?
        
           | PhasmaFelis wrote:
           | Delivering messages to the intended recipients (and no one
           | else) is the single fundamental purpose of chat. If many chat
           | apps have failed at this, then many chat apps have sucked.
        
             | BiteCode_dev wrote:
             | Yes, but in that case, no single chat app ever conceived
             | match your criteria. They all had some kind of similar
             | major bug at some point. Even the big names.
        
         | rvba wrote:
         | "Designed by committee" software can have terrible bugs too.
        
       | qwertox wrote:
       | "We also release our tooling so that fellow security researchers
       | can dig into KakaoTalk's broad attack surface to find more bugs."
       | I think this would be illegal in Germany.
        
         | MeImCounting wrote:
         | Why? How is that relevant? Isnt it well established that open
         | source security research is the number one way to have a secure
         | app/ecosystem? Why should tooling be kept secret when another
         | team can potentially find more exploits using these/similar
         | techniques?
        
           | johnmaguire wrote:
           | > The sole possession of hardware, software or other tools
           | that can be used to commit cybercrime can constitute a
           | criminal offence according to Sec. 202c of the German
           | Criminal Code.
           | 
           | https://iclg.com/practice-areas/cybersecurity-laws-and-
           | regul...
        
             | mlinhares wrote:
             | We'd all be arrested in Germany then as we all have
             | computers with compilers installed on them.
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | Well that is kinda the point of these vague laws. Just
               | like they eventually nailed Al Capone with taxes in the
               | US - if you can't hit someone directly, you can hit them
               | with the "three felonies a day".
               | 
               | I'm German... our politicians, at least most of them are
               | a bunch of pathologically technologically incompetent
               | buffoons. A lot of that was masked during the Merkel era
               | because she herself was a literal nuclear physics
               | doctorate, but now that she's gone, it's painfully
               | obvious what's going on.
        
               | yorwba wrote:
               | Except SS202c StGB https://www.gesetze-im-
               | internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st... isn't actually
               | vague. The simple reason it doesn't outlaw compilers is
               | that compilers aren't built for the _purpose_ of giving
               | unauthorized access to other people 's data, even though
               | they can help achieve that aim.
               | 
               | It's similar to how weapons designed to be used against
               | people are regulated differently from tools that merely
               | happen to be usable as weapons.
               | 
               | In the concrete case of sharing tools to explore the
               | attack surface of KakaoTalk, this is not a crime under
               | SS202c StGB as long as you do not _intend_ them to be
               | used to hack accounts you do not own.
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | That is not in fact well-established at all, though as
           | someone who came up through vuln research I expect we have
           | similar takes on the public policy of vuln and exploit
           | disclosure.
        
       | james_dev_123 wrote:
       | Fun fact: western ride sharing apps don't work in South Korea,
       | and this company also makes the leading rideshare app in the
       | country.
       | 
       | I was forced to make an account on the mobile chat app in order
       | to log into their rideshare app, on a recent trip to Seoul. The
       | UX was not great... not to mention that it was mostly in Korean.
       | I had a lot of trouble. They didn't strike me as the most
       | professional operation..
        
         | unsupp0rted wrote:
         | It's an everything app suite with single sign-on:
         | 
         | KakaoTalk, KakaoTaxi, KakaoBank even (bank obvs not for
         | foreigners without local ID numbers).
         | 
         | The Kakao Metro map app is the best of its class too.
        
           | laz wrote:
           | When did Kakao Bank start offering accounts to foreigners
           | with ARCs? Last I checked it did not.
        
             | unsupp0rted wrote:
             | Some foreigners claim they have KakaoBank accounts, but
             | they may be confusing them with KakaoPay accounts, or maybe
             | the account is in their spouse's name or whatever.
             | 
             | Suffice it to say: for foreigners without a Korean ID
             | number it's a definite no and with a Korean ID it's a
             | likely no.
             | 
             | And good news: they're not called "ARCs" anymore. No more
             | "Alien Registration Card" extraterrestrial stigma. Now it's
             | just the regular stigma.
        
               | BlockerBrews wrote:
               | This is correct. I live in South Korea and I've never
               | heard of any foreigners with kakao bank accounts. That
               | was never offered as far as I know.
        
         | alxlu wrote:
         | Uber works in Seoul
        
         | laz wrote:
         | Uber works in S Korea now.
         | 
         | It also accepts non-Korean credit cards, while most online apps
         | in South Korea do not.
        
         | indoordin0saur wrote:
         | One thing that surprised me about SK is that they have so many
         | local alternatives for tech products that I thought were
         | global. And the global/US version has almost no market
         | penetration. An example of this was Google, at least when I
         | visited in early 2015.
        
           | localfirst wrote:
           | It's great that American software monopolies do not have
           | access to Korean data and that Korean companies can create
           | jobs hiring Koreans and add to the GDP. ALL sovereign
           | countries should practice sovereign software and safeguard
           | PII of its citizens
           | 
           | It's rather inconvenient for non-Koreans but you were never
           | the intended audience nor is there much care for foreigners
           | these days-there is growing hostility towards foreign
           | tourists who have flocked to Japan and Korea in recent years.
        
             | hiccuphippo wrote:
             | I don't know about SK's privacy laws, but wouldn't a
             | country's government have more power to tap into the data
             | of local companies?
        
               | dingnuts wrote:
               | yes, and they also have the power to tell multinationals
               | where they are allowed, geographically, to store the
               | locals' data.
               | 
               | the grandparent has invented a fake problem (data
               | regionalization, as though it cannot be addressed with
               | regulation) and has conflated a nationalist-socialist
               | desire to replace a foreign private enterprise with a
               | nationalized public one. it's nationalist because it
               | assumes that the nation needs to own it, and socialist
               | because at the national level a public solution is
               | proposed.
               | 
               | the solution, in turn, doesn't actually solve the
               | regionalization problem unless the state organization
               | running the nationalized ride share app is required
               | through further legislation to keep the data local -- the
               | same legislation that would be needed to regulate private
               | entities, except now it's the government regulating
               | itself since the public national ride share app is
               | operated and owned by the government, and is now open to
               | all the problems of corruption that plague every command
               | economy.
               | 
               | But by all means, be more like North Korea, South Korea.
               | Just nationalize everything. You don't want American
               | influence. Those American monopolies and American dollars
               | have really made you worse off in the last seventy years.
               | /s
        
             | akdev1l wrote:
             | > ALL sovereign countries should practice sovereign
             | software and safeguard PII of its citizens
             | 
             | Most countries are incapable of this and when they do try
             | they do a worse job.
             | 
             | My government has a website that allows you to fetch a
             | person's voting centre by knowing their ID number. Our ID
             | numbers are sequential. Therefore you can use that website
             | to get approximate location for literally everyone.
             | 
             | My government also has a website to request passports
             | online. I was playing with it and it turns out they have an
             | open GraphQL endpoint that lets me query billing
             | transactions for _everyone_.
             | 
             | But sure the software was made in my country.
        
               | naniwaduni wrote:
               | > Therefore you can use that website to get approximate
               | location for literally everyone.
               | 
               | Approximate address, surely. Addresses are ... usually
               | not very secret in the first place, though? It'd be
               | absolutely fascinating if your government not only
               | tracked everyone's _location_ but assigned their voting
               | center by current location, but, well,
        
               | Aerbil313 wrote:
               | > It'd be absolutely fascinating if your government not
               | only tracked everyone's location but assigned their
               | voting center by current location, but, well,
               | 
               | That's exactly what happens in Turkiye. I assume GP is
               | there.
        
               | makeitdouble wrote:
               | IMHO That's where the software model could change if more
               | countries gave a serious shake at managing national
               | services.
               | 
               | As you point out it's hard and few can do it, so getting
               | more common open source platforms would be a natural
               | evolution. Then relying on global providers that act as a
               | service developer instead of a service owner would still
               | be a huge difference.
        
               | devbent wrote:
               | > Therefore you can use that website to get approximate
               | location for literally everyone.
               | 
               | In America, before the Internet took off, every year
               | everyone would get a book called the "white pages" that
               | had the name, address, and phone number, of everyone who
               | lived in their city.
               | 
               | The American view of privacy is that "openness makes for
               | a civil society".
               | 
               | Although one can argue that hasn't been working out well
               | for us lately ..
               | 
               | Likewise, marriages are publicly recorded and accessible
               | online, as are all property purchases, births, deaths,
               | and even property tax payments.
               | 
               | Though for some reason we consider income taxes to be
               | super secret. Everything else is public, but not those!
               | (How much cash someone put down to buy a house? Public.
               | How much money that person makes? Not public. How much
               | money everyone donates to politicians? Public.)
        
             | indoordin0saur wrote:
             | As an American in the software industry, I whole-heartedly
             | agree.
        
             | mattnewton wrote:
             | Why would we think that every country blocking out foreign
             | companies would result in better software being written for
             | consumers in that country?
             | 
             | I think some tiny amount of protectionism can be necessary
             | to get a domestic industry started, when it is important
             | for reasons beyond giving access to the best products like
             | national security. Especially in edge cases like competing
             | with foreign companies with the backing of their state
             | government or an international market that has degenerated
             | to a monopoly. But ultimately free trade makes better
             | products and international consumers richer and is the
             | desired end goal, not every nation rewriting the same tech
             | stack and providing local flavors of software solving
             | similar problems.
        
               | lmz wrote:
               | > not every nation rewriting the same tech stack and
               | providing local flavors of software solving similar
               | problems.
               | 
               | Why not? Isn't Diversity good? Wouldn't it be nice to
               | have multiple colors, implementations of things rather
               | than the monopolistic (and probably American) beige?
        
               | kcb wrote:
               | You would be doing the opposite of that. Creating 100
               | monopolies.
        
               | lmz wrote:
               | Better a hundred of them than only one or two.
        
             | spongebobstoes wrote:
             | Sovereign software would break the open Internet as it
             | exists today. A lot more work needs to be done on open
             | protocols before interoperation would work nearly as well
             | as the products we have today.
             | 
             | Not to mention the colossal waste of effort in engineering
             | hours, the disparity in quality between rich and poor
             | countries, etc.
             | 
             | Reuse is good. I would rather see open data and open
             | protocols too, but look at Cambridge analytica, a scandal
             | that was a direct consequence of giving people control over
             | their data!
        
         | setopt wrote:
         | I lived in South Korea some years ago, and it was interesting
         | how they had a separate ecosystem of apps and services.
         | "KakaoTalk" and "Naver" had approximately the roles that
         | WhatsApp/Meta and Google have in the West.
         | 
         | I think it's great how these managed to thrive, despite
         | increased competition from multinational companies. In many
         | other countries, local tech companies seem to have become
         | nearly irrelevant over the past decade, which is a sad to see.
        
           | Quinner wrote:
           | It's the result of protectionist government policy. The
           | policies are protectionist not just against foreign entry but
           | also against entry of new products into the market. The
           | government picks technology winners. Unsurprisingly, the
           | government doesn't do a great job of this. Infamously it
           | mandated usage of ActiveX and Internet Explorer for banking
           | long after ActiveX had its time in the sun (the government
           | made this the mandate in 1996 and didn't reform it until
           | 2021!)
        
             | setopt wrote:
             | When you mention it, as a Linux user at the time I
             | struggled a lot with the ActiveX thing... Eventually I
             | think I gave up. I had no idea that stuff was government-
             | mandated.
        
             | bhc wrote:
             | In case of Kakao Taxi vs Uber, it was Uber's unwillingness
             | to work with existing taxi operators that killed any chance
             | Uber had in the Korean market. Kakao (at least until they
             | became dominant) acted more like an agent that sends
             | additional customers to existing independent taxi drivers
             | while Uber kept trying to find legal loopholes to bypass
             | the taxi licensing system. S Korea is a civil law country,
             | and its courts have no patience for actors whose entire
             | legal strategy is to subvert the intent of the laws, and
             | that was the end for Uber there.
        
               | gleenn wrote:
               | To be accurate, Uber didn't abide by laws in most
               | countries it went up against. It was a little slimy but
               | also the taxi systems of most places were very
               | entrenched. I remember never enjoying riding taxis in San
               | Francisco for years, the cars were gross and the drivers
               | were grumpy and generally shady about having their
               | "credit card readers being broken" so they didn't have to
               | pay the fees. Uber and a bunch of companies did and end
               | run around those very politically entrenched systems and
               | I certainly am happy to have clean, friendly, safe,
               | modern rides with good tech where reviews keep things in
               | line and payment is easy and I can share my location
               | easily and know I'm going to end up at the right place
               | way better.
        
           | Prickle wrote:
           | They don't have international competition.
           | 
           | The Korean government explicitly chooses companies for these
           | things. And those companies, Chaebols like Samsung, choose
           | the laws.
           | 
           | If these Korean apps were so good, you would expect them to
           | penetrate foreign markets. But they don't.
           | 
           | https://www.techdirt.com/2023/12/06/dumb-telecom-industry-
           | ba...
           | 
           | Just like how British car companies collapsed when foreign
           | competition entered the market on equal footing, these
           | companies will disintegrate if forced to compete.
           | 
           | https://www.latimes.com/world/la-xpm-2010-dec-01-la-fg-
           | south...
        
         | Algemarin wrote:
         | > The UX was not great... not to mention that it was mostly in
         | Korean. I had a lot of trouble. They didn't strike me as the
         | most professional operation..
         | 
         | What does the seemingly very common-sense fact that a South
         | Korean app was "mostly"(?) in Korean have to do with the UX or
         | with it not being "professional"?
         | 
         | What language were you expecting the South Korean app to be in,
         | French?
        
           | jszymborski wrote:
           | Surely there's no obligation to internationalize your app,
           | but taxis are commonly used by tourists so you'd imagine it
           | would be a good business decision.
        
           | lurking_swe wrote:
           | multi language support is pretty standard in many popular
           | apps. it's not even that hard.
           | 
           | Imagine supporting the most common language in the world.
           | CRAZY right?
           | 
           | https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/supporting-m.
           | ..
        
             | Algemarin wrote:
             | > Imagine supporting the 2nd most popular language in the
             | world. CRAZY right?
             | 
             | Why are you fixating on supporting the 2nd most popular
             | language, shouldn't it support the 1st most popular
             | language first? Or why not jump straight to the 3rd?
        
               | lurking_swe wrote:
               | i meant most common, was an error on my part.
               | 
               | also, if you add internationalization support for 1
               | language in your app, it's trivial (these days) to add
               | other languages. My point is they should just add support
               | for other languages, like chinese, japanese, english,
               | etc.
               | 
               | More users = more money?
        
               | permanent wrote:
               | just so u know, kakaotalk does exist in multiple
               | languages. feels like this whole thread is based on a
               | false assumption
               | 
               | >Kakaotalk is in English, French, German, Indonesian,
               | Italian, Japanese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian,
               | Simplified Chinese, Spanish, Thai, Traditional Chinese,
               | Turkish, Vietnamese
               | (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kakaotalk/id362057947)
        
               | lurking_swe wrote:
               | happy to be proven wrong! Cheers
        
               | theultdev wrote:
               | Have you actually used it?
               | 
               | I used it earlier this year in Korea, although it did
               | have a hard to get to setting to change your language,
               | many many things were still in Korean.
               | 
               | It is very difficult to navigate, but I asked for help
               | and a native was able to figure it out.
               | 
               | Still more usable than Google Maps though, which will
               | only give you a not so good train schedule. No walking
               | directions at all.
        
               | sWW26 wrote:
               | I think your talking about a different app, KakaoMap,
               | which you're right isn't totally localised. KakaoTalk is
               | though.
        
               | devbent wrote:
               | I've seen tons of American made apps from large companies
               | that show bits of English here and there when switched to
               | another language.
               | 
               | Localization is _hard_ , even for companies that spend a
               | lot of time and effort on it.
               | 
               | It isn't just string replacements!
        
             | TillE wrote:
             | Surely not the most popular language among tourists in
             | South Korea, who would be mostly from Japan, China, etc.
        
               | lurking_swe wrote:
               | that's a fair point. in that case, why not support
               | chinese, japanese, etc?
               | 
               | my point is it seems like good business sense. strange
               | they haven't done this.
        
           | voxic11 wrote:
           | Uber, an American rideshare company, supports a large number
           | of languages including Korean.
        
             | astonex wrote:
             | Because Uber operates is many countries.
        
         | Xeamek wrote:
         | As others already mentioned, Uber does work in SKorea (or at
         | least Seoul), altough it's not _really_ an uber, afaik its just
         | a proxy for kakaotaxi while using Uber 's interface
        
           | BlockerBrews wrote:
           | Korea uses KakaoT as a ride hailing app. But all it does is
           | hail taxis. Uber in Korea just hails Uber branded taxis. I
           | have no idea if they are officially affiliated with Uber or
           | not.
        
         | permanent wrote:
         | Kakaotalk is in English, French, German, Indonesian, Italian,
         | Japanese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian, Simplified Chinese,
         | Spanish, Thai, Traditional Chinese, Turkish, Vietnamese
         | (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kakaotalk/id362057947)
        
       | system2 wrote:
       | LOL Only Koreans are eligible for reward. They deserve to be
       | destroyed by hackers at this point.
        
         | rvba wrote:
         | Encourages to sell the bugs
        
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       (page generated 2024-06-25 23:00 UTC)