[HN Gopher] Windows 11 is now enabling OneDrive folder backup wi...
___________________________________________________________________
Windows 11 is now enabling OneDrive folder backup without asking
permission
Author : josephcsible
Score : 175 points
Date : 2024-06-24 21:30 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.neowin.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.neowin.net)
| whalesalad wrote:
| Seems like every 48-72 hours now Microsoft announces yet another
| extremely compelling reason to abandon their platform for Linux.
| noodleman wrote:
| They've been at it for years. I'd genuinely be surprised if
| this cracked the top 10 worst things Microsoft have done to
| Windows users.
|
| I think there would need to be a concerted effort at a grass-
| roots level, say from r/buildapc, to get new PC gamers onto an
| alternative for there to be a considerable shift away from
| Windows.
| Syonyk wrote:
| > _...to get new PC gamers onto an alternative for there to
| be a considerable shift away from Windows._
|
| Have you tried Steam on Linux? It works amazingly well,
| either with native Linux support in games or through Proton
| support (their Windows emulation layer). Quite a few people I
| know have gone that route and are shocked at just how well it
| works in practice.
| Zardoz84 wrote:
| It simply works. It's amazing what does now Wine/Proton
| whalesalad wrote:
| I was pretty blown away by how simple and straightforward
| the experience was for me recently on Debian 12.
|
| * Go to app store (flatpak) and install Steam
|
| * Launch and login to Steam
|
| * Install Helldivers 2
|
| * Launch the game. Done! Everything "just works"
| dpkirchner wrote:
| Even games with EAC and Battleye ("anti cheats") work
| well. That was pretty surprising.
| jsheard wrote:
| YMMV there depending on the specific game, both of those
| anti-cheats _can_ work on Linux but the developer of the
| game has to opt-in to allow it since their Linux
| implementations are much easier to bypass than their
| Windows ones. There 's games like Rust which use EAC but
| have refused to enable its Linux support for that reason.
| animalsgiraffes wrote:
| Proton has been huge for Linux gaming, especially since the
| Steam Deck launched. Apple's Game Port Toolkit is also
| quite promising on Mac side. Unix based OSs are seeing
| something of a vg renaissance.
| janice1999 wrote:
| I recently purchased a Steam Deck and I've been blown away
| by how games just work. I used to use Wine a lot for
| applications in the early 2010s and it was always hit and
| miss (and Codeweaver for Office support). Proton is
| amazing.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I think the discussion is tainted actually by technical
| people who used Wine in the bad old days, haha. I fought
| Wine a decade ago and it was pretty bad. If anyone had
| asked, I'd probably give the "dual boot, may as well keep
| Windows around as a glorified console" spiel.
|
| A non-technical friend got a steam deck, when I asked
| what OS he'd used I got a response along the lines of
| "oh, I guess it must be Linux." It the thought about what
| OS hadn't even occurred.
|
| The future is cool.
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| > I used to use Wine a lot for applications in the early
| 2010s and it was always hit and miss
|
| IME Wine is still hit and miss for applications in
| general, even old ones. Games are just a particularly
| good fit here--they rarely care how well your COM
| marshalling or shell namespace or transactional NTFS or
| weird SQL-like inside Windows Installer is implemented.
| Not to imply that getting games to work is a simple task,
| just that the API surface is much less spread out, and
| any emulation improvements for a single game are more
| likely to improve support for a wider range of other
| games.
| talldayo wrote:
| The Nvidia experience on the beta channel is shockingly
| good now, too. The big sore spot for gaming on Linux was
| trying to convince Nvidia users the experience was worth
| their time. Using 555-series drivers on GNOME Wayland right
| now is pretty much flawless.
| noodleman wrote:
| I'm all in on Linux at this point - it's been usable for a
| long time.
|
| My comments not really about whether it works, as we know
| it does, it's about how we go about getting the word out
| there.
| hparadiz wrote:
| I just switched to Wayland with KDE Plasma 6.1 from KDE
| 5.x on X11.
|
| VR works now. Screensharing and everything you expect
| with other operating systems works perfectly as well.
| metalspoon wrote:
| Mandatory Google [your games] + proton first
| dan-robertson wrote:
| Which do you think is the bigger risk to ordinary users?
|
| - someone hacks into Microsoft and accesses their files from
| onedrive (for passwords/blackmail-info I guess?)
|
| - Microsoft looks at their files in onedrive and does something
| bad (not sure what)
|
| - someone hacks into their computer and accesses their files.
| Or someone does so by causing the user to download something
| bad
|
| - the user's ssd fails or is corrupted because they have
| consumer grade hardware that is not treated particularly well,
| taking all their documents with it.
|
| - the user accidentally deletes some important document (or eg
| drag-and-drops the contents of their document somewhere else
| and autosaves the now blank document, or they lose it some
| other way)
|
| I think the benefits outweigh the risks for a lot of users for
| this change. I don't know how onedrive works but one could
| imagine it working in a reasonably secure way by encrypting
| data at rest (secure keys on device would be nice but bad UX;
| key-derivation function probably better). IMO the real problem
| with the feature is typical big-company lack of coordination
| (the amount of free storage isn't enough for how much people
| typically need, even right away) and lack of incentives to fix
| it (the increase in paying customers is probably worth a lot
| more to whoever caused this change than the increase in annoyed
| users due to drive-full warnings) and the idea that that people
| might pay Microsoft for more storage (that you can't easily pay
| for remote reliable automatic backup storage when you set the
| OS up does not feel like a particularly big advantage of free
| software to me).
|
| I think there are things not to like about this but it doesn't
| seem to me to be the obviously terrible thing your comment
| suggests. Certainly it seems less bad than lots of other recent
| windows changes.
| smolder wrote:
| There's no justification here for turning the feature on for
| users who have already explicitly _chosen_ not to use it, or
| for not presenting them with the choice.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I mean, the person who caused windows to behave this way
| surely had some justification, even if it was self-serving.
| I think a choice would be better but I also think that
| being on is a reasonable default for users.
|
| I don't understand the point about users explicitly opting
| out (and that being switched?). I would chalk such a thing
| down to the kind of big company systematic nefariousness
| you get (no one needs to say 'make it ignore the opt out',
| they just implement a default wrong and don't
| notice/fix/investigate the bug because KPIs increase)
| pseudalopex wrote:
| They had a motive. Not justification.
| the_snooze wrote:
| What you say is true. And what you say completely misses the
| point.
|
| The problem isn't that cloud sync/backup is (or isn't)
| useful. It's that Microsoft isn't respecting users' agency to
| adopt it or not. If the product is indeed useful on its
| merits, then there's no need to turn it on by default or
| continually nag users who say "no thanks." And it's not like
| Microsoft doesn't have a history of underhanded moves to
| capture users into its ecosystem; see what happens when you
| search for Chrome or Firefox in Edge
| https://www.theverge.com/23935029/microsoft-edge-forced-
| wind...
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| << Microsoft looks at their files in onedrive and does
| something bad (not sure what)
|
| Some of us use documents that should not just end up 'in the
| cloud' for various reasons including legal, regulatory or
| just 'I don't want Redmont to have copies of my kids
| pictures'. It does not even have to be that they do something
| bad to it. It is merely that the act of taking it without
| user permission is a major violation of trust.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I definitely see why businesses might be hesitant about
| such a feature (obviously they could also read whatever
| onedrive-related contract they have with Microsoft and make
| an informed decision). I mostly think users don't really
| think of this is some stark distinction, though perhaps
| they should. I still think the real risk of expensive (in
| the general sense) data loss is worse for users than the
| cost of this kind of 'major violation of trust'.
| metalspoon wrote:
| I put my genital images in my Windows so that if they leak it
| I can get compensation and become a millionaire.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| _As a reminder, you can always just uninstall OneDrive and call
| it a day._
|
| Is this really true? Does it never get reinstalled or enabled by
| a cumulative update?
| ziddoap wrote:
| On my gaming rig that I've had for quite a few years now, it
| has never been re-enabled and I've never been nagged about it.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Cool, thank-you. I put some of the OneDrive domains in my DNS
| overrides to see if they get tickled just in case.
| # I am probably missing some. Hope they are not hard coded.
| cat /etc/unbound/override/onedrive.conf local-zone:
| "storage.live.com" always_nxdomain local-zone:
| "onedrive.com" always_nxdomain local-zone: "1drv.com"
| always_nxdomain local-zone: "skyapi.live.net"
| always_nxdomain local-zone: "onedrive.live.com"
| always_nxdomain local-zone: "docs.live.net"
| always_nxdomain local-zone: "odwebp.svc.ms"
| always_nxdomain
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| Win11 or Win10?
| ziddoap wrote:
| 10
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| I updated to w11 about a month ago and my onedrive
| preferences (logged out and not in use) has been respected
| so far.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Is this even new? Pretty sure I dealt with exactly this setting
| up a Windows 11 install last year. Had to do it multiple times
| too due to a flakey SSD I ended up returning.
| wtallis wrote:
| Microsoft makes it a pain, but you _can_ still jump through some
| CLI hoops to use only a local user account to log in to Windows,
| rather than the cloud-conmected Microsoft account they try to
| funnel you into. Not logging into a Microsoft account prevents
| OneDrive from doing anything other than spamming you with
| notifications about how great it would be if you logged in and
| started using it. And you can still uninstall OneDrive after
| every major OS update that brings it back.
| hhh wrote:
| You can still use it offline without an account just fine with
| Pro SKUs and up.
| ranger_danger wrote:
| that shouldn't be necessary though
| ziddoap wrote:
| You can use offline accounts with Home as well.
| _carbyau_ wrote:
| Installed Windows 11 Pro, had to do some CLI dickery to get
| the option for local only account.
| hhh wrote:
| here are the steps I just used a few minutes ago to use a
| local account. You can do it without leaving the OOBE, but
| you shouldn't have to go through so many steps to do it.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40781798
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| ITT: people complain about 'CLI dickery' in Windows but
| arguing for Linux.
|
| *shrug_emoji*
| cjk2 wrote:
| Not by saying "no" you can't. You have to fuck around with
| shift+F10 and oobe stuff. This was tested on 23H2 yesterday.
| hhh wrote:
| Yes, you can. I just now downloaded a win11 23H2 iso and
| installed w11 pro without going outside of the OOBE. Sure,
| you shouldn't have to click 'domain join instead' etc, but
| you can absolutely do it without doing anything outside of
| the OOBE.
|
| Here are the exact steps I used:
| https://pastebin.com/nDnLBYg2
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Does the "domain join" work even if you don't have an AD
| server setup to join to?
| wtallis wrote:
| I've definitely seen laptops from multiple OEMs with Pro
| edition pre-installed that still don't offer the local
| account route without first going through the CLI to bypass.
| I think the only other route remaining is to just not have
| any NIC that the installer can recognize.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Inaccessible to 99% of users, but an escape hatch for the 1%
| who might make a useful fuss. Evil genius.
| Zardoz84 wrote:
| Or just use a Linux distro and avoid all M$ shit
| Sayrus wrote:
| Unfortunately the world runs on Word and Excel and unless you
| want the even worse Office 365 experience, you often do need
| some M$.
| behnamoh wrote:
| While I love Word for academic writing, I've found Apple's
| Keynote and Google Sheets superior alternatives to
| PowerPoint and Excel.
| bee_rider wrote:
| For now. The kids (incoming college students over the last
| couple years) like Google's office suite better as far as
| I've seen.
|
| Anyway, real documents are written in LaTeX.
|
| Windows lives in this in-between space where it isn't as
| easy Google/Apple stuff, but it isn't as good as Linux.
| That gap is always closing.
| passwordoops wrote:
| "real documents are written in LaTeX"
|
| Tell me you've never had a job in the real world without
| telling me you've never had a job in the real world
| ziddoap wrote:
| And QuickBooks Enterprise, and CAD, and Windows-only CRM
| systems, and Windows-only internal financial programs in
| banks/credit unions, and Windows-only programs in
| government environments...
|
| It's a lot more than just Office that requires Windows.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| Additionally for those with Windows 11 Pro or higher, you can
| straight up block OneDrive and other cloud functions with Group
| Policy.
| esalman wrote:
| I was trying to install security updates into a ~8 years old
| laptop the other day. It's been updated to Windows 10 before.
| The updates were OTA, but after it completed there was no way
| to log into the local account without logging into a Microsoft
| account first (while it being connected to Wi-Fi).
| aceazzameen wrote:
| I'm working on a personal Win 11 Pro machine right now using a
| local account. I never made an online one. Also I wonder if I
| uninstalled OneDrive over a year ago, because I don't see
| OneDrive in File Explorer or Task Manager. I've had this laptop
| for over a year, so OneDrive has never returned in all the
| updates since.
| behnamoh wrote:
| Most those changes will get reverted after the next Windows
| update...
| bee_rider wrote:
| Hacks that require going to into a CLI are just not accessible
| to non-technical people. Switch to something user friendly like
| Linux.
|
| At least Gnome only gets screwed up once every decade or so.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| > Switch to something user friendly like Linux.
|
| The same applies; are just not accessible to non-technical
| people.
| fencepost wrote:
| Or if ordering a new PC you can get one with Windows 11 Pro for
| a few $$ more, choose the option to domain join (during initial
| setup) to create a local account, and create user accounts with
| no Microsoft account.
|
| Makes it easier to do minor little things like drive encryption
| as well.
| mirkodrummer wrote:
| To me Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook they all seem by a
| degree or another totally out of control. They seem to be so
| careless of any short-long term consequence that I wonder if
| there is any accountability at all or if it's just a shitshow of
| who does perform better and get bonuses
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| They're all monopolies. We just need to formally redefine the
| terminology around anti trust to punish the anti competitive
| nature of all these tech giants
| scrlk wrote:
| I've never found any compelling reason to set up Windows 11 (or
| 10) with an online account. Things like this just reinforce my
| decision to stick with a local account.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| It forced me this last time I set up windows 11
| scrlk wrote:
| Hit Shift + F10 at the Windows 11 setup screen to open a
| command prompt, then enter `oobe\bypassnro`. After this, skip
| connecting to a network and this will allow you to create a
| local account.
|
| It's extremely obnoxious that they've made it this difficult.
| ranger_danger wrote:
| didn't work for me on 24H2 /shrug
| tripflag wrote:
| it worked for me on win11pro 24h2 just a few days ago;
| maybe you had a lan cable connected?
| ziddoap wrote:
| There are several bypasses.
|
| Don't connect to the internet -> Shift + F10 to bring up CLI
| -> OOBE\bypassnro
|
| The out-of-box experience will restart, and you will have a
| button to set up with a local account.
|
| You can also (or at least _could_ , it's been a bit since
| I've tried this method) use a banned e-mail account when it
| asks for your Microsoft account.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Additionally burning the ISO to Thumb drive with Rufus [1]
| gives an option to disable Microsoft Accounts and hardware
| validation upon installation.
|
| [1] - https://rufus.ie/en/
| squidbeak wrote:
| The only one I ever found was that it made new installations of
| Windows free with a digital licence associated with your
| account. I don't know if this is still true of Windows 11.
| rochak wrote:
| I pity the soul forced to use Windows
| IshKebab wrote:
| Windows 10 is very solid. I'm going to assume it will get
| updates for about as long as Windows XP did... I'll re-evaluate
| when they actually EoL it. Who knows, maybe that will be the
| year of the Linux desktop! (Spoilers: no.)
| apantel wrote:
| Agree re: Windows 10 (Pro). Though even with all the crap
| I've turned off, I can't help but wonder what Microsoft is
| taking from my machine without my knowledge.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| Next October (2025) is the end of the road, because my
| desktop can't be upgraded to Win11 and they tell me that
| about once a month.
| branon wrote:
| October 2025 is EOL for 22H2, but 1809 LTSC is supported
| until 2029.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| If Microsoft is determined to make money from One Drive, could
| they please improve the product? My work laptop routinely pegs a
| core doing who knows what. When there is something to backup, the
| throughout is beyond atrocious.
|
| Microsoft has all of the apis available to monitor changes on its
| own file system. Why does their solution seemingly run naive file
| comparisons to detect changes? What is it doing burning all of
| that computation time? Why does it struggle with tracking 100k
| files? A bubble sort written in Ruby should be able to handle
| 100k anything in seconds.
| kentm wrote:
| Indeed. After being brow beat into using it MS rewarded me by
| syncing my personal PCs desktop shortcuts to the family PC
| resulting in a screen full of broken shortcuts. Good jorb MS.
| 42lux wrote:
| Interestingly, OneDrive is likely the only Microsoft QT app.
| It's amusing that the applications they aim to integrate most
| into their system are no longer native. Last month, they
| crippled Windows Co-Pilot by replacing the native app with an
| EdgeWebView, which has significantly less system integration.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Why the hell aren't the EU and the FTC suing the shit out of them
| for bundling, telemetry, lock in, gouging, shitty defaults?
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Great question.
| robotnikman wrote:
| I've been wondering this too. The stuff Microsoft has been
| pulling for the last decade is just ripe for them to go after,
| yet all you hear is crickets.
| deanCommie wrote:
| I think the 90's Antitrust battle was long and painful for
| everyone, and the hope was that the lessons from the fallout of
| it from it would carry forward in OS design.
|
| But the staff has turned over and nobody remembers it anymore,
| so here we go again. (see also: The rise of Fascism worldwide
| as WW2 veterans die off)
|
| That said, a Web Browser was/is a disproportionately
| significant application for the OS, where preferential defaults
| and bundling raise anti-trust concerns. Not so with a cloud
| backup option. TBH, Apple has been/remains equally annoying
| with iCloud integration/upsells on both OSX and iOS. And nobody
| cares.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Microsoft bundle edge still and it can't be removed, even in
| windows 11 LTSC. Constant nagging if you don't accept
| O365/OneDrive unless you eviscerate the machine thoroughly or
| use a cracked LTSC build.
|
| As for Apple, no. Literally I get asked once about stuff and
| then never again.
| Syonyk wrote:
| "It looks like you're considering investigating Microsoft! I've
| loaded 500 free crystals into Candy Forgecraft Extreme and
| launched it for you! Just play one level..."
|
| I have no idea why the EU isn't going after Microsoft with a
| heavy club for all the crap they're pulling lately.
| cjk2 wrote:
| _> I have no idea why the EU isn 't going after Microsoft
| with a heavy club for all the crap they're pulling lately._
|
| Did someone get a O365 license reduction or a nice dinner
| out. MS rep used to take me out to dinner in the 90s to get
| us to use NT+Visual Basic. Free dinner with asshats - worth
| it. We used Solaris in the end and Sun only gave us hats.
| 42lux wrote:
| The last time, they built a new office and convinced an
| entire state to abandon their custom Linux setup and switch
| back to Office 365. Looking at you Bavaria...
| spacebanana7 wrote:
| Sadly I think the enthusiasm with which the market embraced
| this behaviour in mobile, console and IoT makes it legally
| difficult for Microsoft to be punished.
|
| How can you penalise Microsoft for pushing OneDrive by default
| but not penalise Apple for iCloud? Should multiple backup
| providers be suggested at startup for economic fairness? Or
| should backups be disabled by default (potentially annoying
| consumers of mobile devices)?
|
| Not saying it's impossible for a skilled regulator to build a
| PC specific theory of harm but it's hard. Potentially might
| need entirely new legislation.
| djxfade wrote:
| iCloud Drive, and actually the entire iCloud ecosystem is
| opt-in
| amelius wrote:
| Yes, but the question is how they implemented it. Are there
| dark patterns, is it all-or-nothing, etc.?
|
| Also, with iCloud being at the heart of Apple's ecosystem,
| a simple bug may very well cause accidental sharing of
| sensitive data. Even if that never happens, it does not
| make me sleep better.
| kentm wrote:
| It also doesn't nag if you decide not to use it.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| It does - there's a message with a red dot badging in
| your settings that you can't dismiss. Clicking it takes
| you to a nag message to log into iCloud. Still, nowhere
| near the blatantly insecure and anticompetitive dark
| patterns that Microsoft uses
| nicoburns wrote:
| IMO While Apple are pushing iCloud harder than they really
| should be allowed to, but it's nowhere near as bad as what
| Microsoft are doing. With Apple there's a simple opt-out in
| the setup wizard, and if you opt-out you stay opted-out (and
| are only prompted to opt-in once a year with the major OS
| update).
| temac wrote:
| It seems completely illegal for MS to do that on EU
| computers, esp. with Schrems (but probably even completely
| illegal with just GDPR)
| ffhhj wrote:
| How will goverments surveil their citizens without these
| companies?
| ranger_danger wrote:
| Jokes on them, I only use local accounts
| davidkellis wrote:
| You to today (I do too). May not tomorrow:
| https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/microsoft-acco...
| Syonyk wrote:
| I'm not the target market for Windows, haven't been for a while.
|
| But I _genuinely_ cannot figure out what Microsoft 's vision for
| Windows 11 is. Or if they even have one beyond "idk, shove crap
| in, meet OKR, get promotion... maybe?"
|
| For a while, it seemed like they were focused on making sure that
| they could link as much of your activity on your computer to
| _you, as a person_ - witness the ever-increasing challenge of an
| offline-only account, which means the value of knowing the email
| address of the signed in user is substantial. And then they
| embedded ad delivery as a first class participant in the platform
| - the sort of crap that used to be common from people who
| installed Bonzai Dancer Cursor Free or such is now literally part
| of the OS.
|
| ... and then it 's just gone weird. AI with Copilot, Recall, etc.
| There doesn't appear to be a coherent vision of what it is,
| beyond a place to shovel crap, deliver unwanted applications
| (that they get paid to shove at people, presumably), and install
| _lots_ of updates.
|
| Linux has problems, but there are no shortage of distros that
| just run apps, without delivering all your behavioral surplus up
| for collection, and that's what (IMO) an OS should be. Windows
| 11, from the outside, doesn't look like it's serving me. Except
| in the sense that it's focused on "serving me to Microsoft for
| further subversion of my will."
|
| ... and apparently Windows will now _orange_ screen? Last time
| someone offered to let me touch a Windows machine, it orange
| screened in protest before I could even touch anything. At least
| the feeling is mutual.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Probably incorrect conspiracy theory: with the success of Azure
| and also due to basic common sense, anyone inside MS that gives
| even the smallest shit about OS quality is a huge Linux fan.
| But, they have this awful legacy OS dragging them down, they
| can't get rid of it because of various contracts and general
| shareholder expectations. They added as much Linux to it as
| they could really get away with, and their only good program
| (VSCode) has been ported and works perfectly fine on Linux, so
| things are mostly looking OK.
|
| The only thing left to do is to tank Windows and get rid of
| that legacy support burden once and for all.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >But I genuinely cannot figure out what Microsoft's vision for
| Windows 11 is.
|
| An operating system for the common man (and hopefully a
| subscription revenue inlet).
|
| We need to acknowledge that cloud backups _are a good thing for
| most people_ , we're talking people who otherwise never take
| backups no matter what and then cry when they inevitably lose
| their data.
|
| The only problems here are OneDrive is absolute roasted garbage
| with how it actually executes the concept and Microsoft account
| integration is far too fucking obnoxious.
| utensil4778 wrote:
| I run a cloud backup service. Cloud backups are good for you,
| the user.
|
| Therefore, I have the right and moral obligation to break
| into your computer and upload all of your data to my own
| servers without your knowledge or consent.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > But I genuinely cannot figure out what Microsoft's vision for
| Windows 11 is. Or if they even have one beyond "idk, shove crap
| in, meet OKR, get promotion... maybe?"
|
| 100% agreed
|
| I can't figure out who MS's target audience is for Windows now.
| They're losing marketshare to Apple in the casual home user
| market. Heck, based on my last two jobs, even developers are
| switching to MacBook, though I acknowledge that that's
| confirmation bias.
|
| Technical users are happily switching to Linux or Mac.
|
| That leaves who else? Gamers? They're still stuck on Windows
| depending on the games they play. Anything written in a cross-
| platform like Unity is fine, and Proton is getting better and
| better, and now even many anti-cheat software has a native
| Linux client, but some major games with proprietary engines
| still struggle under Linux. Hopefully more games start getting
| native Steam Deck support, which ends up making them Linux
| native.
|
| But like...how many customers is MS going to burn for short-
| term gains?
| o11c wrote:
| > figure out what Microsoft's vision for Windows 11 is
|
| Never attribute to stupidity what can better be explained by
| malice. Hanlon's razor hangs a lot of weight on that
| "adequately".
|
| We _know_ how valuable bulk data collection is, so why would
| Microsoft ever _not_ mine it?
| MR4D wrote:
| Seems like a great place to store tons of ISO's.
| the_snooze wrote:
| Or randomly generated bits.
| MR4D wrote:
| Does anyone know if Windows 11 Pro does this too ?
| elorant wrote:
| Why is Win11 such a pain though? I don't get it. You had Win10
| that worked just fine and they went on and fucked it up to what
| gain? Did they manage to sell more of other products in their
| lineup? And you do all that when Apple has its own silicon and
| produces superb laptops that could lure a lot of people in their
| ecosystem. I understand that Windows isn't the cash cow it used
| to be, they've moved to greener pastures like Azure, but still
| why mess up your main trademark product and piss off so many of
| your users? What's the end goal here?
| steve_taylor wrote:
| Presumably, the Windows team has various targets to meet in
| terms of ARPU and things of that nature.
| okanat wrote:
| The data they collect for the AI and the advertising
| opportunities enable more profits and more revenue to keep
| infinite growth happening. Even with Azure, even with Github
| and everything else. If you're not using all the profit
| opportunities, you are not delivering enough. The economic
| system doesn't reward or demand stable profits or sustainable
| growth, it demands compound growth.
| Fauntleroy wrote:
| This, exactly. Things will only continue to get more shitty
| as long as the expectation, and often requirement, for
| businesses with investors is to make infinite money, forever.
| netsharc wrote:
| At least the version number increment is probably necessary
| because of the "breaking change" of requiring TPM, so they can
| move into a locked-down ecosystem like the iPhone, which I'm
| guessing is MS's goal within a few years.
|
| But the terrible UI/UX? I guess they saw they had to entice
| users to move by changing the look and feel, but didn't give
| the programmers enough time, so it was mostly unfinished
| garbage when it was released, and maybe still is the case.
|
| On that note, I have Win11 and Office version whatever at work.
| I really fucking hate new Outlook, it's a garbage web app, the
| whole "NEW" label on the icon makes me always think "Oh I've
| got some new emails. Oh no, it's just Microsoft being
| fuckwits". Also, the UI for modifying email signatures is a
| confusing maze of unfinished UI.
| starik36 wrote:
| This does not fill me with confidence that they won't pull the
| same crap with Recall.
| jjoergensen wrote:
| How is this not a compliance risk? Automatically transferring
| data, including personal data, to the cloud without explicit
| consent raises GDPR concerns.
| okasaki wrote:
| I recently reinstalled Windows Home.
|
| It's not possible to install a local account any more. Apparently
| all the loopholes have been closed. It just loops you back to the
| "oops looks like you lost internet access" page.
|
| I made a new account - installer<date>@outlook.com with
| no@thankyou.com as the backup email (which you have to give).
| Microsoft didn't like that, so it made me go through 10 minutes
| of captchas (captcas in the OS install - wtf)
|
| Then it forced me to give it my birth date, ostensibly to check
| if I'm of age. Could just ask "are you older than 13" but then
| you don't get that sweet data.
|
| Finally I booted into the OS, and I made a local account.
|
| I spent 30 minutes going through the awful menus trying and
| probably failing to disable all the crap that sends all my data
| to Microsoft. Some of which can't be disabled in the Home
| edition.
|
| Then I tried to delete my "installer" account. Oops, sorry, we
| have to "verify" who you are by sending an email to
| no@thankyou.com. Oh, you don't have that? No worries, just give
| us your real email address and we'll allow you to log you in
| after 30 days.
|
| Then later I check my real name gmail account and there's a
| Microsoft email with a login code. I never gave MS this email
| address. What the hell??
| ziddoap wrote:
| > _It 's not possible to install a local account any more.
| Apparently all the loopholes have been closed. It just loops
| you back to the "oops looks like you lost internet access"
| page._
|
| This simply isn't true, I did a computer with Windows 11 Home 3
| days ago with local accounts.
|
| OOBE\bypassnro still works as expected.
| okasaki wrote:
| No it doesn't.
| ziddoap wrote:
| Yes, it does. I'm not the only one in this thread, the
| other Windows thread from today, or online that has
| installed Windows 11 Home in the last week and successfully
| setup local-only accounts.
|
| When dozens of people say it still works and one says it
| doesn't, chances are the one person did it incorrectly.
|
| It works.
| okasaki wrote:
| Here's several people saying it doesn't work any more:
| https://answers.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/forum/all/window...
|
| It tried it, it didn't work.
|
| I even disabled wifi in bios.
| ziddoap wrote:
| I'm not sure what to tell you. Friday, 3 days ago, I
| setup a brand new Windows 11 Home computer.
|
| I didn't connect to Wi-Fi, I did OOBE\bypassnro, and I
| created my local account. Nice and simple. There are
| other people in this very thread who also had the same
| experience as me.
|
| Sorry it didn't work for you. But it still works.
| okasaki wrote:
| Maybe you used an old image? I downloaded the latest from
| Microsoft.
| consp wrote:
| > Then it forced me to give it my birth date
|
| Forgot what it was (not Ms for once) which started
| discriminating against 124 year old people since you could not
| enter 01/01/1900 as a birthdate. Usually it's cut at 100 (I
| always say I'm born on 01/01/1900, there is no legal reason
| other than the "are you an adult" question)
| amanzi wrote:
| I'm all for hating on Microsoft for their continued destruction
| of the local Windows 11 experience, but I actually think this is
| a good decision. Assuming you're logging in with a Microsoft
| account, and assuming you have a OneDrive account, it's a better
| experience to set up the folder backup feature as early as
| possible in the set-up process. If you really don't want it, it's
| easy to undo.
|
| I still don't like being forced to log in with a Microsoft
| account as part of the set-up. I prefer to log in locally, and
| then incrementally turn on the cloud features. But I've voted
| with my wallet and have moved to Linux and macOS for day-to-day
| desktop computing. I still keep a Windows 10 VM around for when I
| need it, but am doing all I can to avoid the "modern" Windows
| desktop experience.
| MissTake wrote:
| > I actually think this is a good decision
|
| Whatever happened to just, I dunno, _asking_ what to do?
|
| > But I've voted with my wallet and have moved to Linux and
| macOS for day-to-day desktop computing
|
| As did I about 7 years ago. Still have to use Windows servers
| at work, but I'm even supplanting many of those with Linux
| servers as and when I can
| Bilal_io wrote:
| > Assuming you're logging in with a Microsoft account
|
| The whole issue lies within this assumption. Microsoft does not
| want you to use a local account, and they make it extremely
| difficult to setup your Windows machine without one.
| amanzi wrote:
| Yep - I agree with that. I set up a Windows 11 machine
| recently and was still able to create a local account. I'm
| sure there will be ways to defeat the new requirement. I
| haven't tried this, but even if they forced a Microsoft
| account during set up, couldn't you just create a local admin
| account once logged in, then log in with that account and
| delete the first profile?
| malfist wrote:
| I think a company, without my permission, copying my personal
| files to their server is the definition of not a good decision
| amanzi wrote:
| Note that this is only during set-up, so at that point you
| don't have any personal files on the machine. And this is
| only if you're logging in with a Microsoft account with a
| valid OneDrive account. The article is light on details, but
| I assume (hope) there's some UI to explain what's going on.
| steve_taylor wrote:
| Linux and macOS is a great combo. I recently bought a full-spec
| UM790 Pro (Ryzen 9 with 64GB RAM), installed Ubuntu and
| colocated it with my router. I run vscode on my low-spec Mac
| Mini (M1 with 8GB RAM) with all the grunt work handled by the
| Ubuntu server thanks to the Remote-SSH extension. I saved
| several thousands of dollars by not buying a Mac with a decent
| amount of RAM, get the great macOS user experience, and develop
| on the platform (Linux) that I'm deploying to.
| jiripospisil wrote:
| > full-spec UM790 Pro (Ryzen 9 with 64GB RAM)
|
| Fun fact: The machine actually supports up to 96GB (2x
| CT48G56C46S5).
| proactivesvcs wrote:
| What happens when your files are considered Bad and Microsoft
| removes them? When the OneDrive backend suffers bit rot or
| misconfiguration? What happens when your Microsoft account is
| compromised? When the photos of your kids in the bath are sent
| to the police? When you have a 10GB file that's frequently
| modified and the client then constantly scans it and uploads
| it? When your abusive partner, relation, co-worker or boss uses
| this to surveil you, tamper with or remove your files or even
| plant evidence? When your business or organisation now suffers
| from liability from not performing due data protection
| diligence of something they were not informed nor asked consent
| for? The list of reasons why this is terrible just goes on and
| on.
| Fabricio20 wrote:
| Except when it doesn't ask you if you want it to do that, and
| suddenly after investigating why my games are patching slow as
| shit it turns out my OneDrive is full from game patches that it
| synced from my Documents/My Games folder and my network speed
| is being destroyed by OneDrive syncing the patches up every
| time the launcher replaces a patch file.
|
| I'm all in for automated backups, but let the user know that
| their entire user folder is gonna get synced and give an option
| to disable it (opt-out) on the OOBE. Make this optional and
| explicit.
| anothername12 wrote:
| I just use it for playing games on steam, but lately it's
| annoying even for that. I tried steam on Linux with proton and
| whatnot. It works okish, but there were too many issues with
| screen flickering. The Xorg/Wayland/nvidia info out there made it
| too confusing to deal with work arounds. A younger me would have
| persisted though.
|
| So it looks like I'm in it for another Windows-issued flogging at
| least.
| whatever1 wrote:
| Meanwhile they have crippled the native file history and backup
| options of the OS.
|
| I was desperate until I found an excellent multiplatform open
| source project for backups called Kopia!
|
| Highly recommended, even entry level users can work with it.
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| It'd be so nice if Windows went back to offering three tiers:
| home, which assumes you want to log in and get on with your life
| and you don't care what the defaults are as long as things just
| work(tm); Pro, which assumes you know what you want and doesn't
| give you that unless you ask for it; and Enterprise, which
| assumes you're made of money and it's literally several people's
| jobs to manage your windows installs org-wide.
|
| So we can just buy Pro and know we're getting an OS that _we_ can
| configure instead of an OS that gets hijacked by Microsoft every
| single windows update cycle.
| slavik81 wrote:
| Tech companies in general seem to struggle with consent. Even
| when they bother to ask, they often refuse to take "no" for an
| answer, only offering "maybe later."
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| > Tech companies in general seem to struggle with consent.
|
| This is why Louis Rossman started describing these behaviors as
| a "rapist mentality" of tech companies. It's a violation of
| consent, an exploitation of their anti-competitive size (yes
| just their size is inherently a problem that distorts the
| market).
| mianos wrote:
| At least a Mac alllows you to have a local account without
| iCloud. We are not allowed iCloud accounts on our work lappies
| due to the risk of client data leakage. It seems to me, unless
| the Microsoft cloud is 100% trusted you would not be able to use
| it at many places. (We do have centrally managed computers and
| accounts).
| nofunsir wrote:
| Microsoft cloud is[1] indeed trusted: "Office 365 GCC High"[2].
|
| [1] Read: "can be" [2] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-
| us/office365/servicedescripti...
| ilamont wrote:
| Tangential: If you use Office on your Mac, it is impossible to
| use your own hard drive as the default save location, or remove
| OneDrive as an option.
|
| https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/i-wan...
|
| Very, very frustrating for non-technical family members who
| can't find files in Documents or some other local hard drive
| location.
| walterbell wrote:
| _> We are not allowed iCloud accounts on our work lappies_
|
| Is it possible to have an Apple account for apps and security
| updates, without iCloud? On iOS, the default login panel in
| _Settings_ will sign into both iCloud and App Store. To avoid
| iCloud, one must use the App Store app to sign into "Media and
| Purchases", rather than using _Settings_.
| generic92034 wrote:
| So what kind of Windows 11 is running on my PC? System info says
| Win 11 Pro, but I am only using a local account, was never
| prompted for an MS account, get no ads nowhere, no nag screens
| for upselling office/OneDrive/etc. What kind of magic did the PC
| vendor perform for me?
| ffhhj wrote:
| Just run O&O ShutUp10++ after each update to cleanup M$ dark
| patterns.
| suby wrote:
| This happened to me. I was wondering why my internet speeds were
| slow when I discovered that Microsoft was in the process of
| uploading my users directory, they had already uploaded almost
| two gigs when I realized. They also changed the path to these
| directories to something like C:\Users\name\OneDrive\Desktop\\.
| Another poster in this thread claimed it's easy to reverse -- I
| disagree, it's a pain in the ass to track down the setting, and I
| shouldn't have to do this. When I did, it gave me an error for
| one of the directories and refuses to revert (documents?).
|
| I don't like leaving negative or hyperbolic comments on HN, but
| this was enraging and unacceptable to me. It's hard to convey
| without coming off as unhinged. I only ever boot into Windows
| nowadays when I need to compile and test a Windows build of
| software. I understand Microsoft has built up good will through
| efforts like VS Code, but it's all undone because of things like
| this. I avoid MS products, they cannot be trusted.
| tyleo wrote:
| This is almost my exact experience too.
| sorry_outta_gas wrote:
| It's annoying but it's a smart move, once they get you to hit
| that low 5gb onedrive limit it's a easy path to get you on a
| office365 sub for the extra storage.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| << It's hard to convey without coming off as unhinged.
|
| I almost wonder if this is by design. I genuinely had people
| look at me funny when I described relatively minor issues that
| eventually made me jump from Windows ( in my case I think it
| was dropping detailed descriptions from updates in Windows 7 ).
| I kept explaining that even the issues are not the actual
| issue. The issue is that I am unable to administer my machine
| as I see fit. I am not anti-tech, I tell people, but the tech
| has to work for me...
| gear54rus wrote:
| Did you login with ms account? if so, why?
|
| I don't think it can upload if you aren't logged in.
| lolinder wrote:
| > if so, why?
|
| Have you tried installing Windows 11 _without_ signing in to
| a Microsoft account? It 's very difficult to do and the
| instructions online keep having to change as Microsoft makes
| it more and more difficult. What I'm finding now [0] involves
| using a hotkey to open command prompt at a certain part of
| the installation process and running a command to disable the
| internet before you proceed.
|
| [0] https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-
| windows-11-witho...
| gear54rus wrote:
| I guess mine just came pre-installed without that. But my
| point still stands, just don't interact with the crap and
| you're still somewhat safer.
| lolinder wrote:
| > just don't interact with the crap and you're still
| somewhat safer
|
| You're not wrong, but your initial comment made it sound
| like it was just a matter of not stepping in a single
| pile of dog poo. What Microsoft presents users with
| instead is an entire sewer with a great big EXIT sign
| pointing straight through the sewage. If you're in the
| know you can mutter a secret incantation and a ladder
| will drop down, allowing you to climb up onto a rickety
| catwalk with lots of warning signs telling you that
| you're going the wrong way. If you're brave enough to
| ignore the warning signs then _eventually_ you 'll get to
| the other side without touching the crap.
|
| Needless to say, most people follow the path that
| Microsoft designed for them and end up interacting with
| at least some of the crap.
| gleenn wrote:
| You are definitely right but I still feel like this is
| Stockholm syndrome, if they keep dark-patterning people
| more and more into logging in, it doesn't really make
| this a substantial improvement, they'll update they're
| way into tracking you and uploading your personal files
| somehow.
| suby wrote:
| They go out of their way to make this difficult. I tried
| disconnecting my internet while installing, but they're
| apparently wise to that because the option which internet
| articles claim is there is no longer there. I think there's
| probably a console dropdown you can bring up when installing
| to get a local account, but I've decided against fighting the
| OS. It's so user hostile that it's not worth it to try to
| turn it into something I like.
| IanKerr wrote:
| I'm imagining this happening to someone on a highly metered
| connection and blowing through gigs of their limited monthly
| upload budget before realizing their OS has just gone rogue on
| them. Treating everyone like they have an unlimited bandwidth
| budget and greedily using it without permission is just awful
| behavior.
| jchw wrote:
| > It's hard to convey without coming off as unhinged
|
| Man. I have felt this way a whole lot lately.
|
| I think some people see Linux users and genuinely can't fathom
| how or why they'd want to go through all of the trouble
| choosing to use Linux and doing real work on it. A lot of us
| look back just as puzzled, because when I switched to a Linux
| desktop for the first time in around 2004, it was definitely a
| choice, but it hasn't felt like a "choice" for a very long
| time.
| davisr wrote:
| Now you understand why Stallman was right. If you don't want to
| get shafted, the only way is to control 100% of the software
| running on your machine. One either does that with totally
| free/libre software, or they don't.
|
| No one can or should trust non-free software. Period.
| tomrod wrote:
| Perhaps time for me to leave VS Code. I have suitable
| replacements for everything else MSoft. The plug-ins ecosystem
| is helpful, but what the heck!
| neither_color wrote:
| _I don 't like leaving negative or hyperbolic comments on HN,
| but this was enraging and unacceptable to me. It's hard to
| convey without coming off as unhinged_
|
| You're not unhinged, there's been a fundamental change in
| internet culture and the early 2000s free internet people are
| considered loony now. Ive been laughed out of Discord
| groups(it's what the under 30s use these days instead of chats
| and forums, and is itself problematic) for talking about these
| things.
| dontdoxxme wrote:
| I think it's better to see it as not a shift in culture but
| understand that the internet represents all culture now.
| There are still under 30s that believe in real freedom but
| everyone is on the internet now, rather than a set of people
| that were more biased towards freedom (as that was partly
| what the internet represented).
| II2II wrote:
| > I understand Microsoft has built up good will through efforts
| like VS Code, but it's all undone because of things like this.
|
| Someone in Microsoft should look into who is making these
| decisions, why these decisions are are being made, and why they
| are being received so negatively. Then they need to address
| them.
|
| Even though I'm not much of a fan of Microsoft products, I get
| the impression that they have some excellent developers making
| excellent products that end up being undermined by business
| decisions. These are decisions that will probably end up
| undermining the business itself. We don't live in the 1990's
| anymore. Microsoft has plenty of competitors who are nibbling
| away at their edges.
| jtriangle wrote:
| Oh, I mean, the "why" is pretty simple. They're going to
| enable onedrive upload by default, wait until the sync
| finishes, then change the EULA to allow them to scrape
| everyone's onedrive for machine learning data that they can
| then sell.
|
| >>Welcome to hell.
| chx wrote:
| > Microsoft has built up good will through efforts like VS Code
|
| That's the Trojan Horse
|
| https://ghuntley.com/fracture/
| lkdfjlkdfjlg wrote:
| Stallman is always right, if only you're willing to wait long
| enough.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| They're going back to dark tactics. Ads galore to nudge you into
| signing up for a Microsoft account, then an office 365 account.
| It's annoying and I'm going to switch to Linux.
| amindeed wrote:
| Is using server editions of Windows as desktop OSs any better? I
| mean in regards to making such changes (without explicit user's
| consent, at least) and wasting system resources with [background
| running] junkware, for instance.
| tylerchilds wrote:
| This is the same folder with the every three seconds screenshot
| feature or no?
| tylerchilds wrote:
| This is the same folder as the every three second screenshot
| feature?
| Overtonwindow wrote:
| I had to go into the registry to break Microsoft Word from
| constantly wanting to save my documents to the cloud. It's
| absolutely awful.
| europeanNyan wrote:
| Just this weekend, I've decided to nuke my Windows 11 drive
| because of Recall and all the shitty practives and give a sweet
| extra 1GB SSD to Linux Mint for storage. Didn't know Microsoft
| would give me additional reasons to feel good for doing it.
|
| I'm not missing anything. I've got the newest Nvidia drivers and
| kernel which were all very easy to install and one search away to
| find instructions on how to do it. Everything is rock solid. No
| surprise dark patterns, no enabling/disabling of issues. I keep
| Timeshift backups of the last 2 days and one for last week and
| month. If whatever I am playing with on the system goes haywire,
| I just restore my system with Timeshift.
|
| I've also been giving up on modern gaming, too much
| enshittification (loot boxes, engagement driven gameplay,
| messages for modern audiences, etc.) happening lately, but
| everything I've thrown at Proton ran great. I've been
| rediscovering the great libraries of retro gaming consoles,
| especially the DS and 3DS so my computer is actually a workhorse
| now and my gaming is single player retro bliss.
| evantbyrne wrote:
| Yesterday I found out that OneDrive was silently running on
| startup on my Windows 10 machine, only because I went to disable
| the EA launcher. Have never used it on that machine.
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