[HN Gopher] Notes on Tajikistan
___________________________________________________________________
Notes on Tajikistan
Author : petesivak
Score : 146 points
Date : 2024-06-20 17:24 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mattlakeman.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (mattlakeman.org)
| colonCapitalDee wrote:
| I listened to https://www.theredlinepodcast.com/post/tajikistan-
| and-region... yesterday. It's an extremely interesting discussion
| on the geopolitical factors both internal and external that shape
| Tajikistan's security sitation, and who's interests Tajikistan's
| security dysfunction serves.
| lye wrote:
| > The government and locals don't like when you bring up Borat
|
| Depends on which locals. Younger generations never really cared
| about this. All my friends have always found the movies
| hilarious, especially the first one.
|
| When the sequel was released, the government finally started
| acting like adults: https://youtu.be/eRGXq4t9wY4
|
| I'm pretty sure this is also caused by generational change in the
| government.
| nradov wrote:
| At one point the government of Kazakhstan threatened legal
| action over Borat and Sacha Baron Cohen hilariously responded
| in character.
|
| "I fully support my government's position to sue this Jew."
|
| https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/bor...
| ranni_ending wrote:
| yeah at another point he distanced himself from making racist
| movies about country he has 0 idea about. then you bring up
| an example of him trying to hide behind his Jewish identity
| to be above criticism as a "joke".
|
| it's trivial to punch down and then act like a victim by
| bringing up your own identity.
|
| People who find it easy to make fun of others while being
| extremely thin-skinned themselves:
| https://www.timesofisrael.com/sacha-baron-cohen-tells-
| tiktok... for a legitimate dissent on his holy cow country. I
| imagine making fun of Israel in the same vein and making a
| movie about it in the same style would get anyone blacklisted
| in Hollywood. There will be 10 OP-EDs about how that's
| antisemitic and disrespectful. But because it's Kazakhstan
| nobody gives a shit and we're supposed to suck it up and
| laugh with others a la Oldboy.
|
| It might be hilarious to you, but for ethnic Kazakhs it isn't
| (self-respecting ones at least).
| culebron21 wrote:
| I live in Kazakhstan as expat, and locals are brought up
| patriotic pretty much like in America -- national anthem at
| school every day (I shivered when I learned about it, both
| about KZ and America), told they're the richest post-soviet
| country. So the movie that plays the anthem and highlights
| so much that he's from Kazakhstan (although he looks
| nothing like a Kazakh), looks like a serious insult.
|
| (edit: to be exact, I don't mean he mocks this partiotism,
| there's nothing to do with it in the movie.)
|
| I've been told that the true meaning was to film Americans
| with candid camera and laugh at how stupid they are, but to
| me, Borat is the only thing people utter when I say where I
| am, so it's pretty annoying.
|
| OTOH, given this popularity, nat. govt could have paid some
| petro-uranium-dollars to Cohen for some tourism
| commercials.
| lye wrote:
| Maybe this has changed in recent years, or it's different
| in the south or the west of the country where more
| "ultra-patriots" live, but it wasn't my experience at all
| in the middle of 2000s. We had to listen to the national
| anthem several times per year on national holidays, and
| perform other token gestures like that, but nobody took
| it seriously and these actions were relentlessly
| ridiculed.
|
| Not because of lack of patriotism, but because of the
| synthetic and bureaucratic feeling of the whole deal.
|
| So the parody misses the mark.
|
| Borat is really about the US society anyway, they could
| have picked absolutely anything else and it wouldn't make
| a difference.
|
| > But Borat is the only thing people utter when I say
| where I live now
|
| Own it and as soon as people see you don't care, they
| drop the subject. The joke was old ten years ago.
| culebron21 wrote:
| I didn't mean he parodied the patriotism. I mean to
| serious patriots, this is a slap in the face, even when
| in fact it says nothing of Kz at all.
| DEADMINCE wrote:
| He's not punching down or hiding behind an ethnic identity,
| he's mocking the idea of someone being upset over a
| parody/mockery/comedy.
| repelsteeltje wrote:
| Yeah, but I see his point about getting away with this
| type of humor only because most viewers hardly know
| Kazachstan actually exists. I might be upset if I were a
| Kazakh, or I might not be - but I probably would find I
| hilarious.
| DEADMINCE wrote:
| > because most viewers hardly know Kazachstan actually
| exists
|
| I really don't mean to be insulting to US people here,
| but I really think this would be a huge difference in the
| populations between the US and other countries where the
| film was popular.
| babi_ wrote:
| i had the opportunity to travel to central asia last summer for a
| couple weeks (both uzbekistan and tajikistan, briefly). was
| really a fascinating trip to a part of the world that i barely
| knew anything about!
|
| for those who are curious about traveling in central asia in
| general, there is a great travel blog of sorts called
| caravanistan -> https://caravanistan.com/forum/
|
| the main website is useful for travel logistics but i find myself
| returning to the forum pretty often to see travel updates from
| people on the ground in those places. really interesting to me to
| read about various border crossings between countries, what to
| expect when traveling around/between countries, etc
| OutOfHere wrote:
| Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being kept in
| check without resorting to either extremism or terrorism. But
| this is neither free nor assured, and it probably requires
| constant wilful effort.
|
| In the long term, I can see it bleeding more territory to China
| due to the significant difference in military power and
| aggression. This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure
| to keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its
| neighbors.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being
| kept in check without resorting to either sharia or terrorism.
|
| Because it's done through extreme human rights violations such
| as torture, kidnapping, kangaroo courts, etc [0].
|
| This only radicalizes the Jihadist movements, who's hardcore
| believers went into exile Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya,
| Syria, etc and became extremely prominent in the Islamic State
| movement (eg. The former head of Tajikistan's Spetznaz defected
| to ISIS back in 2015 and became their War Minister).
|
| ISKP is extremely Tajik in leadership, and this has helped them
| commit mass casualty attacks like the Kerman Bombings and the
| Moscow Theatre Siege
|
| Once Emomali Rahmon dies, the Civil War will restart.
|
| > bleeding more territory to China due to the significant
| difference in military power and aggression. This is so long as
| there isn't a NATO-like structure to keep Chinese aggression in
| check, constituted of its neighbors.
|
| Countries like India have had Air Force bases and boots on the
| ground in Tajikistan for decades [1]
|
| ---------
|
| If in San Francisco or New York, I recommend checking out Halal
| Dastarkhan or Farida's, Tandir Rokhat (Bukharan Jewish), Aziza
| 7, and Salute (Bukharan Jewish) respectively.
|
| The owners are all ethnic Tajiks from Uzbekistan. Bukhara is
| ethnic Tajik but in Uzbekistan because Stalin.
|
| [0] - https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-
| chapters/tajik...
|
| [1] - https://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060422/main6.htm
| slt2021 wrote:
| really tough choice for a government: violate human rights of
| opposition or descend into ISIS/afghon
| rvense wrote:
| Islam is extremely important to Tajik identity. But Tajikistan
| is making the same mistake many other Muslim dictatorships and
| authocracies did. By not having a real open political system,
| the only place for dissent to take root is in Islamist circles,
| and then that's the opposition you get.
| slt2021 wrote:
| Tajikistan had civil war in 1990s where Islamist radicals
| were the opposition and wanted to turn TJ into sharia run
| state.
|
| open political system actually makes islam opposition
| stronger (and easy to influence with $$$ from Gulf
| monarchies).
|
| Keeping islam in check, also means keeping in check Gulf oil
| $$$$ that install their own version of islam.
|
| the pipeline of volunteers from *stans to join ISIS/Al-Qaeda
| was funded and enabled by Gulf monarchies.
|
| If there is another big war in the Middle East - guess from
| where all the islamist volunteer fighters will be coming from
| - from these poor 3rd world islamist countries, the *stan
| countries
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| > open political system actually makes islam opposition
| stronger (and easy to influence with $$$ from Gulf
| monarchies).
|
| No it doesn't. Provide one example where this has happened?
| protomolecule wrote:
| Russia. [0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Khattab
| slt2021 wrote:
| i lived there, gulf monarchies are financing construction
| of mosques all over the *stans, and are sending people to
| "study islam" in ... Pakistan and Bangladesh, where they
| are radicalized and brainwashed.
|
| various conflicts in Causasus in russia - where
| caucasians were bankrolled and brainwashed via gulf money
| (dagestan and chechnya)
| geoka9 wrote:
| I think there's more danger of bleeding territory to the
| Taliban, at least it has been the case until recently.
| Especially if Russia (who has had a big military base there
| forever) becomes irrelevant.
| ashilfarahmand wrote:
| I think they were on high alert up until recently and are now
| in the process of trying to figure out how to get along with
| them. On the border areas, there were a handful of markets in
| the mountain villages where they allowed Afghans to cross the
| border to sell products. These markets were shut down once
| the Taliban took over but have recently been re-opened.
| wavefunction wrote:
| The article mentions that China has a military base in the
| east of Tajikistan and touches on Chinese attitudes towards
| islam and their behavior internally (in Xinjiang for example)
| and externally in Tajikistan. Russia appears to be unable to
| prosecute their own defense let alone the defense of "allies"
| as Armenia found out.
| jajko wrote:
| Russia has no allies. Every single 'compatible' nation ran
| the hell away from them as soon as it become marginally
| possible in late 80s, and in typical russian victim fashion
| west and US specifically is to blame.
|
| Just look at what they are doing to their supposed brothers
| in Ukraine, for one old man's greed and twisted view on
| reality and his legacy, 0 other reasons. This is how they
| treat everybody, including other russians.
|
| What they have are temporarily aligned forces who see some
| benefit in such action, nothing more. Most of them would
| take over russian territory and its mineral riches without
| blinking an eye if they could.
| holoduke wrote:
| You are so wrong about Russia and its alies. Sure many
| western countries are fed with anti russian propoganda
| for decades. For them its as you say. But there is more
| than that. Russia unprovokedly invaded Ukraine is also
| seriously wrong. The complexity of the subject is much
| more than that. Unfortunately our western leaders do not
| have the goal of creating peace and therefor things will
| escalate more and more. I blame the west for that.
| thriftwy wrote:
| The OP article is actually very tacit on the "Russian
| question" and is a direct opposite of your sabre rattling
| attitude. You should be ashamed, then switch to topics
| where you can maintain some comfortable level of
| intellectual integrity.
| ssijak wrote:
| Number of countries invaded by China in the middle east: 0
|
| Number of countries invaded by USA in the middle east: 3 and
| few more got bombed
|
| I mean "This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like structure to
| keep Chinese aggression in check, constituted of its
| neighbors.".. try to be a bit more self reflective.
| lye wrote:
| Yeah, "the West" lost a lot of goodwill in the region in the
| last couple of decades to be able to talk from such a high
| moral ground. I don't have any studies -- they're probably
| impossible to run in an autocratic state -- but in my country
| among people I've talked with through my life all major
| powers are viewed with roughly the same suspicion. It depends
| _a lot_ on who you 're talking to. If people are worried of
| possible secession of territory to China or Russia, they're
| equally worried about Western powers supporting "the fifth
| column" and color revolutions. Let's not pretend here they
| don't have any reasons to be worried.
| bartvk wrote:
| You are being downvoted, but I think it has to do with your
| last paragraph. Check the guidelines link at the bottom, it
| has some related remarks.
| lye wrote:
| That's fair, thanks, I edited it out.
| wbl wrote:
| The people or the corrupt autocrats who send secret
| policemen out and about?
| kkfx wrote:
| The west in Central Asia want natural resources, like
| China, partially like Soviet Union, BUT Soviet Union back
| than have created most of the local infra, bad maybe,
| oppressing people maybe, but still modernize these
| countries. The west have financed Arkadag, Innopolis, ...
| meaning giving much to very few and nothing for the rest.
|
| Back than, hearing my grandmother stories (she have a
| political activity in Europe that link her to the Soviet a
| bit), all was Soviet Citizens, of course the non-Caucasian
| looking was discriminated, the child of Russian there got
| better schools and services, the locals got far less, but
| they was still free to learn and move, the western
| experiment have given exactly NOTHING for 99% of the locals
| and have instead exacerbated local corruption...
|
| That's why many might dream an European future, but
| definitively not like being under the IMF rules, they even
| prefer a historic enemy, China, since at least the Chinese
| nowadays build a bit of infra, just to pick natural
| resources or link themselves to EU, but still creating
| something that give some breadcrumbs to the locals.
|
| The western and middle-east economical initiative have only
| displaced people. That's how we lost an opportunity...
| wewtyflakes wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo.
| ..
| protomolecule wrote:
| Your own link says that during the revolution of 1911 in
| China local theocracy seized power in Tibet and held to it
| for 40 years.
|
| "After the Xinhai Revolution in 1911, most of the area
| comprising the present-day Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR)
| became a de facto independent polity, independent from the
| rest of the Republic of China"
|
| "At the time Political Tibet obtained de facto
| independence, its socio-economic and political systems
| resembled Medieval Europe.[29] Attempts by the 13th Dalai
| Lama between 1913 and 1933 to enlarge and modernize the
| Tibetan military had eventually failed, largely due to
| opposition from powerful aristocrats and monks"
| thriftwy wrote:
| It's always funny to me how facts about previous
| allegiance are withheld with impunity, apparently in
| hopes to confuse a distracted reader.
|
| I can forgive people for forgetting to mention that
| Baltic states were part of Russia for centuries before
| they were re-annexed by the USSR in 1945. Indeed I can
| see how people had 20 years of independence and weren't
| fans of being included into a socialist utopia. But, just
| yesterday I've read that Georgia had a "Bolshevik
| invasion of 1921". A province of Russian Empire for a
| really long time and up until 1917.
|
| It looks like the free press thinks you can make
| legitimate territorial claims go away by not mentioning
| their existence.
| dvdkon wrote:
| Certainly many parts of the world aren't too big on
| democracy and self-determination, but from my point of
| view any military operation not sanctioned by the target
| region's people or government counts as an invasion.
|
| Maybe that's not how all the people involved saw it, but
| we see, judge, and name events through the lens of our
| own values.
| protomolecule wrote:
| "through the lens of our own values"
|
| So who sanctioned the invasion of Serbia by NATO?
| protomolecule wrote:
| "re-annexed"
|
| Wrong word.
|
| "In Nystad, King Frederick I of Sweden formally
| recognized the transfer of Estonia, Livonia, Ingria, and
| Southeast Finland (Kexholms lan and part of Karelian
| Isthmus) to Russia in exchange for two million silver
| thaler, while Russia returned the bulk of Finland to
| Swedish rule." [0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nystad
| wewtyflakes wrote:
| I am unsure how that is relevant. The other poster was
| trying to paint China as an entity that did not war with
| its neighbors, and that seems false. If you do not like
| the topic of Tibet, then how about Vietnam
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War,
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War) or Korea
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War)? I am not
| saying if these acts were good or bad, but they did
| exist.
| protomolecule wrote:
| How it is not relevant?
|
| Anyway, from your own link:
|
| "The Sino-Vietnamese War was a brief conflict that
| occurred in early 1979 between China and Vietnam. China
| launched an offensive ostensibly _in response to Vietnam
| 's invasion and occupation of Cambodia_ in 1978, which
| ended the rule of the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. The
| conflict lasted for about a month, with China withdrawing
| its troops in March 1979."
|
| In both other wars China helped their neighbors against
| Americans.
| wewtyflakes wrote:
| Again, not talking about it being good or bad, but you
| cannot deny that this happened (China invading a
| neighbor), which is the point being made.
| protomolecule wrote:
| This thread started from the claim that China will invade
| with particular purpose: "I can see it bleeding more
| territory to China".
| wewtyflakes wrote:
| I was replying to the poster who said:
|
| ``` Number of countries invaded by China in the middle
| east: 0
|
| Number of countries invaded by USA in the middle east: 3
| and few more got bombed
|
| I mean "This is so long as there isn't a NATO-like
| structure to keep Chinese aggression in check,
| constituted of its neighbors.".. try to be a bit more
| self reflective. ```
|
| I was pointing out that this seems to misrepresent the
| acts of China, due to its numerous armed conflicts with
| its neighbors in recent history. Though incidentally,
| this sidebar does seem also shore up the point for the "I
| can see it bleeding more territory to China" regardless.
| Here are more citations if you need them: -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Mongolia - ht
| tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80
| %... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes
| _in_the_So...
| protomolecule wrote:
| "its numerous armed conflicts with its neighbors in
| recent history"
|
| So which country has China invaded in the recent history?
| Bringing up events that happened more hundred years ago
| looks strange.
| pythonguython wrote:
| All of the central Asian "stan" countries have a Muslim
| majority and Tajikistan is actually the most extreme of them.
| But Kazakhstan, kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Turkey and
| Iran are all examples of islam without extremism (although Iran
| has fundamentalism)
| lye wrote:
| Kazakhstan has a problem with Islamic extremists and the
| government is very much worried about it and spends a lot of
| money fighting it. They put cameras in every mosque, for
| example, and work their people into every religious group of
| any significance.
|
| There's not much info on it in English, but here you go:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Aktobe_bombing
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Aktobe_shootings
|
| https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontrterroristicheskaia_operats
| iia...
| pythonguython wrote:
| It's certainly on the governments radar, and they do have
| an interest in preventing it. Kazakhstan banned hijab in
| schools and engages in anti terrorism like you mentioned.
| But overall, the country has a large secular population
| (due to the Soviet Union) and the country practices a
| moderate form of Islam called Sufism. I would attribute
| this to their nomadic culture, which meant the Quran was
| more of an oral tradition for Kazakhs in the past. The
| difference between Kazakhstan and Tajikstan is that you can
| actually find daesh cells in the pamir valley of
| Tajikistan, while that's not really a thing in Kazakhstan.
| Extremism in KZ has manifested as a few isolated attacks
| and a small amount of individuals who chose to travel to
| fight in the Syrian war. I spent 9 months in KZ last year
| and - visited mosques, talked to many locals in various
| cities and feel comfortable saying that Islamic extremism
| is rare there.
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| When your police are free to abuse girls all the way up to
| abusing them to death for not wearing hats like Iran is, I'm
| pretty sure that's extremism.
| pythonguython wrote:
| And in the early 20th century pahlavi's regime beat women
| who chose to keep wearing the hijab. Religious extremism in
| the form of salafi Wahhabism isn't common in the country,
| nor is militant jihad. It's theocratic authoritarianism. I
| think the difference is worth noting.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Saying "Islam being kept in check" in this way sounds an
| implication that religion (or perhaps just this one) ought to
| be suppressed. This sort of attitude and policy coming from it
| is like gasoline for religious extremism, and the fact that
| Tajikistan exports extremists should be enough evidence for
| that
| jl6 wrote:
| "Suppressed" would be more extremism. "Kept in check"? Yeah,
| that's probably a good treatment for any religion.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Keeping religions in check as such is incompatible with
| liberalism. Secular societies need to be maintained, but
| antagonizing religious people with phrases like that is not
| how.
| stef25 wrote:
| Make sure to use right words so they don't have a
| meltdown, like toddlers.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| It is important for government actions to be communicated
| clearly
| surfingdino wrote:
| On the flip side, religions are incompatible with
| liberalism so there's constant tension.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| The bedrock of liberalism is religious freedom
| surfingdino wrote:
| When a religion/ideology wants to limit personal freedom,
| it's a hard stop. Otherwise it's the end of liberalism.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Liberalism will end when we choose to end it, in bits in
| pieces, each brick ironically removed in it's own name.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Religious freedom is fine.
|
| What bothers me is religious groups or people attempting
| to legislate their morality onto the whole of society by
| restricting personal freedoms.
|
| If they would just follow their own morals and ethics and
| leave the rest of society alone, I'm perfectly fine with
| that.
|
| For example, if you don't believe in abortion, then don't
| get an abortion. Leave people who want to get abortions
| alone, it's their choice.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| I couldn't agree more
| hagbard_c wrote:
| Islam does have a specific problem in this regard since its
| scripture explicitly calls for violent struggle to spread it
| over the world. Ignoring this fact does not make the problem
| go away and only serves to undercut those who attempt to
| start an 'islamic enlightenment'.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Actually it doesn't call for that
| oa335 wrote:
| > Islam does have a specific problem in this regard since
| its scripture explicitly calls for violent struggle to
| spread it over the world.
|
| Which part of the scripture?
|
| Every part of the Quran that involves violence has
| consistently been understood to apply to a specific
| context, by almost all classical Islamic theologians and
| jurists.
|
| That's why extremist groups rarely cite Quran for
| justifying perma-war, instead citing opinions of Islamic
| scholars instead.
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| No it doesn't. I'm Muslim. Like most monotheistic
| religions, it actually says that most people will become
| irreligious before the end of time
| meowtimemania wrote:
| I think by "kept in check" they mean good separation of
| church and state. Some islamic countries don't have good
| separation of church and state.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Some Islamic countries are family businesses that have
| international recognition as states for historical and
| geopolitical reasons. I don't take the actions of those
| countries seriously
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| How is this (what's described in the article) good in any
| way?
| mda wrote:
| The thing described is far from separation of church. It is
| straight out oppression.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| It is not just a religion, but a legal and societal system. A
| very medieval one.
|
| Few people care if you believe that Muhammad rode to heaven
| on a magic horse (Buraq). But quite a lot of people care if
| you want to introduce hand amputations for theft, as demanded
| by Sharia Law, or different inheritance rules for sons and
| daughters where being female = being less valuable.
|
| The medieval-practical parts of Islam must definitely be kept
| in check, unless the country in question is willing to
| regress into some very dark ages. That is something that
| Ataturk understood very well when reforming Turkey.
| pseingatl wrote:
| Hand amputations for theft are not automatic, even in Saudi
| Arabia. Even pickpockets preying on pilgrims in the
| Prophet's Mosque do not automatically suffer the penalty.
|
| However, many believe that this is the case. The erroneous
| belief does tend to keep crime down.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Islamic law is understood by Muslims to be applied only in
| an Islamic state. In a secular state, the consensus
| understanding by Muslims is that the secular law is to be
| followed. A secular state need not suppress Islam
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "A secular state need not suppress Islam"
|
| What about a secular state that doesn't want to become an
| Islamic state, but has a significant minority that has
| the opposite wish?
|
| AFAIK this is _the_ most important common political
| problem across the Islamic world. Many organizations such
| as the Muslim Brotherhood want to Islamize their
| respective secular countries, some by peaceful means,
| others by violence. There has already been at least a
| dozen civil wars around that issue.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| A liberal secular state must respect the will of its
| citizenry, whatever it is. It must also suppress violent
| sedition with violence. Expressing that responsibility as
| suppressing religion per se is counterproductive
| surfingdino wrote:
| Alas, religious people always want an exception to
| secular rule of law and in some countries in the West
| managed to carve out exceptions
|
| https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/applying-
| sharia-l...
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Secular law allows it's citizens discretions for settling
| family disputes and inheritance. Religious people often
| use that discretion to use religious rules from their
| religion. Nonreligious people benefit from the same
| discretion. This is not an exception from secular law,
| all secular laws continue to apply.
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| So... To keep thieves from having hands cut or people from
| having sexist inheritance, you need to North Korea the
| poorest people in the world to keep them poorer?
|
| This is ridiculous, quite frankly. You don't have to
| approve of every law a foreign people have to not want to
| basically terrorize them with a despot
| protomolecule wrote:
| You are confusing the cause and the effect.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| This is a common take. I respect it but find it entirely
| unconvincing
| protomolecule wrote:
| I find your take extremely naive.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| I sometimes even have faith in democracy, believe it or
| not.
| protomolecule wrote:
| Have you heard of Christian extremists in the USSR which
| is known for suppressing religion? Exactly.
|
| Likewise Islam in Tatarstan is completely benign.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| The US cold war strategy of supporting Islamic extremism
| in the USSR is well documented. I think the reading of
| history that you are suggesting is naive
| aenopix wrote:
| They are exremist, they banned Eid celebrations, they banned
| the Hijab....
| cyberax wrote:
| > Tajikistan looks to be an interesting case of Islam being
| kept in check
|
| "In check" in this case means a 7-year civil war that ended up
| with 1% of the country _dead_ and around 15% of the population
| displaced.
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| What a lot of Westerners don't realize is this kind of
| sentiment is exactly why Islamist parties and political groups
| are so popular in the Muslim world.
|
| If your only choice is extremely socially conservative,
| democratic groups like the Muslim Brotherhood (or worse) or a
| literal Kim Jong Un alike, then it's pretty obvious who you'd
| choose.
|
| This is resorting to extremism and terrorism, it's just
| conducted by the army and police. Did you not hear how many
| people were assassinated and killed by this dictator to
| maintain iron grip control over the country? How is that not
| terrorism?
| rvense wrote:
| An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have
| many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm
| filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much
| better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street
| level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family.
| There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones
| that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet
| Union, that are very openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks but were
| usually allowed to run free. The people were hospitable and open
| and very happy to have guests in their country, but it also
| seemed like a very bleak place, with few good prospects for the
| future.
| ssijak wrote:
| Your description does not sound like an amazing place that you
| said it is in the first sentence?
| geoka9 wrote:
| Some of the most beautiful mountain scenery I've ever seen
| and very hospitable people. A very nice place to visit. Not a
| very good place to live though unless you're so rich that you
| don't have to rely on the local infrastructure and services
| for survival and quality of life.
| ssijak wrote:
| I find life to also be bad if you are the only rich person
| isolated in a bubble when 99% of the people are in extreme
| poverty. You just can't feel good, unless you don't care.
| brnt wrote:
| Also, sharp gradients inherently incentivize attempts to
| equalise. It is an unstable situation.
| blackhawkC17 wrote:
| Also makes you a target, living life constantly watching
| your back and being careful about any stranger you meet.
|
| There's a reason most rich people stick to developed
| countries.
| rvense wrote:
| The people are friendly and welcoming, and the scenery is
| amazing. As a tourist, I don't much mind paying a few bribes
| to policemen (who barely get paid a wage), and I can stand to
| keep my mouth shut about their president when I'm there (even
| though he's obviously a bastard). But it's painful to think
| what it must be like to live there and have nowhere else to
| go.
| protomolecule wrote:
| "and have nowhere else to go"
|
| Seriously?
|
| "Migrant laborers are Tajikistan's top export. In 2019, the
| remittances they sent from Russia exceeded $2.6 billion -
| about triple the value of all other Tajik exports that year
| combined, and equivalent to approximately 28 percent of
| Tajikistan's GDP." [0]
|
| "According to figures provided by the Interior Ministry of
| the Russian Federation, more than 3 million Tajik citizens
| were officially registered in Russia last year. In 2021,
| 2,439,198 Tajik nationals reportedly stated "work" as their
| reason for entering Russia; that is about one-quarter of
| Tajikistan's entire population." [1]
|
| [0] https://eurasianet.org/tajik-labor-migration-to-russia-
| hits-...
|
| [1] https://asiaplustj.info/en/news/tajikistan/society/2022
| 0214/...
| 0xdde wrote:
| From the post:
|
| > In 2014, Tajikistan was the most-remittance based
| economy on earth, amounting to almost half of its GDP.
| The countryside is dotted with half-finished concrete
| homes which I was told were the long-term retirement
| plans of Tajiks working abroad; they build their
| structures for a few months each year over many years or
| decades using trickles of funds earned from abroad. When
| the structures are finished, they prepare them to be
| their permanent homes once they retire from migrant work.
|
| They aren't settling out of the country permanently and I
| doubt the quality of life as a migrant worker in Russia
| is spectacular.
| protomolecule wrote:
| They are.
|
| "174,000 Tajiks became citizens of Russia in 2022, up
| from 104,000 the year before." [0]
|
| That's 1.5% of Tajikistan's population in a single year.
| We are not building walls, you know.
|
| [0] https://eurasianet.org/number-of-tajiks-seeking-to-
| get-russi...
| 0xdde wrote:
| Your link suggests this is largely to remove red tape
| while working in Russia. It does not answer how many are
| settling long-term. There is of course also this little
| complication:
|
| > Anecdotal evidence suggests that recent recipients of
| that status have been prioritized for military
| mobilization as the Kremlin forges ahead with its
| offensives against Ukraine.
| protomolecule wrote:
| The link suggests the opposite.
|
| "While Tajik expatriates have some scant freedom of
| movement and residency privileges in Russia as compared
| to peers from most of the world outside the former Soviet
| Union, they have limited access to accommodation and
| credit, _making settling long-term a complicated
| proposition_.
|
| Migrant laborers also face recurrent costs like payment
| for their work permits.
|
| Holding _Russian citizenship makes many problems go
| away_. "
|
| "Anecdotal evidence"
|
| Exactly.
| ddulaney wrote:
| And the people who are left are the ones who cannot
| leave.
|
| This is a pretty common pattern: there's a portion of the
| population that is mobile and can freely move around, and
| the rest of the population is stuck in place for one
| reason or another. When Venezuela went through its
| instability a couple years ago, about 20-30% of the
| population left [0]. Syria had 30-40% leave [1]. Ukraine
| had about 15% leave the country, but more were displaced
| from the warzone as internal refugees.
|
| So when you say that "about one-quarter of Tajikistan's
| entire population" went to Russia for work, that suggests
| that economic conditions are at the same general class as
| 2018 Venezuela or 2012 Syria, where everybody who easily
| can move has moved. The people are left really do have
| nowhere else to go.
|
| [0]: https://www.iom.int/venezuelan-refugee-and-migrant-
| crisis [1]: https://www.unrefugees.org/news/syria-
| refugee-crisis-explain...
| protomolecule wrote:
| Ones who stayed likely to have relatives who moved to
| work in Russia and are sending money back.
| ashilfarahmand wrote:
| I visited last year. I agree with everything you said. It was
| beautiful. I didn't notice many Russians there at all though.
| Many more in the surrounding stans.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the
| Soviet Union
|
| > openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks
|
| Makes me wonder, maybe _something_ happened between ethnic
| Tajiks and ethnic Russians between Soviet Union collapse and
| the present.
| ashilfarahmand wrote:
| OP visited about 15 years ago so if you are hinting at the
| more recent event, it doesn't sound relevant. And if it is
| not that, I'm not sure what you are hinting at.
| anamexis wrote:
| Most likely the Tajikistani Civil War, 1992-1997.
| shakow wrote:
| > I'm not sure what you are hinting at.
|
| Probably the various ethnic cleansings that happened in the
| *stans at the fall of the USSR, where most more western
| ethnicities (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Armenians,
| ...) were at best swiftly & firmly reconducted to the
| nearest airport, and at worst killed on the spot.
| protomolecule wrote:
| "There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones
| that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet
| Union, that are very openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks but
| were usually allowed to run free."
|
| You mean Russians that survived ethnic cleansing in the 90s?
|
| "More than half the estimated 380,000 Russians in Tajikistan
| have fled since the violence began. Tajikistan has been
| criticized by the Amnesty International for human rights abuses
| against returning refugees (The AP, 05/25/93)." [0]
|
| " the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family"
|
| Who haven't let radical islamists turn Tajikistan into
| extremist's stronghold like Afghanistan after the USSR lost the
| war.
|
| [0]
| https://webarchive.archive.unhcr.org/20230521232353/https://...
| grecy wrote:
| > _many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I
| 'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so
| much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both
| street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic
| presidential family_
|
| I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway,
| and 3 years driving right around the African continent.
|
| What you said can equally be applied to _many_ places I spent a
| good deal of time in. Incredibly friendly, warm, kind and happy
| people to a degree I did not know was possible on planet earth.
| Sadly they 're held down by corruption, ineptitude and the
| West.
|
| Happily, virtually every single person laughs, sings, dances
| and celebrates basically everyday, because they choose to be
| vibrantly happy despite all the BS.
| blackhawkC17 wrote:
| > Incredibly friendly, warm, kind and happy people to a
| degree I did not know was possible on planet earth. Sadly
| they're held down by corruption, ineptitude and the West.
|
| The problems are significantly of their own doing. I live in
| one such country (Nigeria), and many people say the same
| thing about my people- warm, friendly, and whatever.
|
| But being warm and friendly doesn't build a successful
| nation. Tribalism, high tolerance for corruption from the
| locals, and lack of the rule of law are what ruin these
| countries, and citizens are either too apathetic or
| outrightly support the same incompetent leaders ruining them.
|
| Besides, some people are friendly to white foreigners but
| hostile to locals from another tribe.
| medwards666 wrote:
| I spent a fortnight with a small group of friends motorcycling
| along the Pamir highway back in 2022, then another week or so
| over in Kazakhstan (off the bikes this time).
|
| Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go
| travel and get off the beaten track.
| stef25 wrote:
| Dream trip. Your own bikes ? How "free" were you and how
| difficult was it ? I've traveled by motorbike on 4 continent
| now and am dying to visit central asia to do more of that.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| I wanted to go once but heard that either the taliban or al queda
| were in the area, which is unideal as an American citizen. Is
| that not the case anymore?
| geoka9 wrote:
| Taliban (across the Panj river) has been a threat until
| recently. But for now they seem to be friends with Russia and
| Tajikistan has always been a Russian client state.
| rvense wrote:
| Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in Tajikistan?
| I know people go back and forth over the river (I went to
| Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so there's
| contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit of going
| to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like that?
| geoka9 wrote:
| I haven't heard of any, FWIW. And they are the official
| government in Afghanistan now, so I would think it's not
| their thing anymore? (I can be wrong, of course.)
| ashilfarahmand wrote:
| > Have the Taliban ever conducted any operations in
| Tajikistan? I know people go back and forth over the river
| (I went to Badakshan once and saw them swim across!), so
| there's contact, but I don't think the Taliban have a habit
| of going to Tajikistan to take hostages or anything like
| that?
|
| I don't think they have. It also wouldn't really make sense
| for them to do that. The Taliban mostly have issues with
| Iran and Pakistan so you will see conflicts with these
| nations most often in the news. I've never heard of them in
| conflict with any of the other stans. Badakhshan is also
| quite distant from the core of Taliban power which is
| mostly in the South. Northern Afghanistan is traditionally
| Northern Alliance territory.
| rvense wrote:
| The Taliban might be keeping more of an eye on the border
| than the previous Afghan government did, though, for that
| reason.
| ashilfarahmand wrote:
| I think they were on high alert up until recently and are now
| in the process of trying to figure out how to get along with
| them. On the border areas, there were a handful of markets in
| the mountain villages where they allowed Afghans to cross the
| border to sell products. These markets were shut down once
| the Taliban took over but have recently been re-opened
| (within the last month or two).
|
| As of last year but probably since the Taliban came to power,
| Tajikistan has has military checkpoints along the border.
| Also, I don't know about for all seasons but during the
| summer, the river seemed too fast to be crossable along most
| parts of the border.
| rvense wrote:
| There has been, as far as I know, one single case of tourists
| being attacked (and killed) by militant Islamists, which
| happened a few years ago. So statistically it's probably safer
| than a lot of places. There is significant resistance to the
| regime under the surface, but everything is still held together
| by an aging, kleptocratic authoritarian. So in some sense it's
| a volatile place, and the situation could obviously change
| significantly in a matter of hours or days in a way that's
| unlikely to happen in, say, Europe. (Or at least Europe of five
| years ago...)
|
| I think it is still a very safe place to visit, and many
| tourists, including Americans, visit every year. Extreme things
| can happen anywhere. The likelihood of getting mugged I'd say
| is effectively zero, at least compared to London or Barcelona.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Good perspective, thank you for sharing :) I think I
| originally saw my concern in this "The World's Most Dangerous
| Places" book which is probably incentivized to exaggerate a
| little bit (https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Peltons-Worlds-
| Dangerous-Place...)
| culebron21 wrote:
| The Beatles haircut is also common in Dagestan in Russia, being
| source of jokes (e.g. https://imgur.com/a/eiGyw7E)
| mc32 wrote:
| That's because they were back in the USSR!
| numbers wrote:
| I love this style of writing and how it introduces a place I
| almost never thought about before. I didn't know anything about
| Tajikstan except its name so this was all new information. Thank
| you!
| wbl wrote:
| So snow at 13,000 feet in the summer, deep inland. How has there
| not been attempts to develop this for alpine sports? The quality
| of the snowfall plus the terrain seems made for it.
| layer8 wrote:
| As mentioned towards the end of TFA, there is a ski resort:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Dara
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > Sadly, the Dushanbe flagpole lost its status as the world's
| tallest in 2014, only three years after its construction, to the
| Jeddah Flagpole in Saudi Arabia, which I have already seen
| without knowing its illustrious status in the world flagpole
| standings:
|
| > I have to admit that I find it kind of funny that Tajikistan
| spent $3.5 million to win an extremely petty international
| prestige project contest, and then it lost a few years later to a
| country with 30X the GDP per capita and 100X the GDP. Saudi
| Arabia's lead lasted for seven years until Egypt took the top
| spot and _Russia_ slid into second place
|
| Quite amusing to see how a man writes about _-stan_ and Saudi
| Arabia but his mind is firmly not on these countries.
|
| > On this particular point and some others, I wondered whether my
| companion had an overly rosy and maybe sanitized view of Tajik
| culture, which isn't uncommon for immigrants to have toward their
| homeland.
|
| Or maybe he didn't want to speak freely with some foreign rando.
| Especially some foreign rando _from America_. Cue in the next
| three paragraphs.
|
| > due to an apparent combination of local fashion sensibilities
| and I guess fabulous Persian hair
|
| That's a funny observation but this is how you instantly
| recognize Tajik from any other guy from Central Asia.
|
| > How can two countries have so many military fights that result
| in direct casualties, including straight-up artillery barrages
| over the border, and not actually declare war on one another?
|
| > I have no idea.
|
| I have no idea how some country can travel to literally the other
| side of the planet and yet not actually declare war on the
| country it is invading. *shrug_emoji*
|
| > And of the better armed one-third, I swear, most didn't have
| clips in their AKs. Meaning, they either carried no ammo or only
| a single round in the chamber.
|
| Or they are required not to have a loaded magazine[0] in the
| firearm because they aren't in the constant direct threat and
| don't have a need to respond _instantly_.
|
| I know, it's hard to comprehend to someone from _" I bring a
| loaded AR in Taco Bell (along with two Glocks and assortments of
| EDC tactical knifes) else I'm feel like naked"_ nation, but no
| magazine in a firearm doesn't mean there is no magazines at all.
|
| > Claim 2: The "Taj" in "Taj Mahal" refers to the Tajik people.
|
| After the turmoils of 1990s many ex-USSR countries tried to
| invent their ancient connections, so if you hear something along
| that - keep a salt shaker nearby.
|
| > Buzkashi
|
| Oh, yes, a lot of this types of.. activities in the Central Asia.
| The included video is hilarious for the reaction of the announcer
| and the comments[1]
|
| Overall this article is.. obviously biased by the US-tinted
| glasses. I found myself reading it for the author perspective,
| less for the actual content.
|
| [0] Yes, it's a magazine:
|
| > Clip (firearms)
|
| > Not to be confused with Magazine (firearms).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_(firearms)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms)
|
| [1] It's in the article but if you are lost:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUn8MsEyPs
| thriftwy wrote:
| > and Russia slid into second place
|
| I also struggled there, perhaps that's the wording for Russia
| doing some flagpoling without claiming 1st place at any point
| of time.
|
| There's three awfully huge flag poles in St. Petersburg erected
| last year, perhaps these are the culprits of that sentence. For
| the curious, these exhibit Emperors' flag, Soviet hammer-
| sickled and Russian tricolor.
| loeg wrote:
| The whole thing is great and worth reading, but I wanted to
| highlight this anecdote:
|
| > I asked about the criminal justice system and I was told there
| wasn't much of a formal one. My companion explained that most
| matters were handled internally by families. For instance, if a
| 20-something got in a fight with another 20-something and the
| cops got involved, the police would most likely contact the
| families and let the parents and brothers sort that shit out with
| a warning not to cause trouble again. The families would enforce
| order through shaming, threats of social ostracization, and
| possibly physical violence.
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