[HN Gopher] New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation under...
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New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-
end encryption [pdf]
Author : unnervingduck
Score : 125 points
Date : 2024-06-17 15:54 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (signal.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (signal.org)
| mihaic wrote:
| After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of
| data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end
| encryption. I just want a responsible entity to store all my data
| in a secure way, and they'd only make money from what I'd pay
| them. If I lose everything, I still want access to my data, even
| if a proof of identity costs me.
|
| Of course incentive systems make that very hard in today's
| corporate world, but I can still wish for my ideal world.
| scotty79 wrote:
| I don't think end-to-end encryption prevents server backup. It
| means that decryption keys is in your mind and at most on your
| personal device.
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| A server backup is useless if you can't decrypt it and it's
| very easy to accidentally lose the keys for end-to-end
| decryption. I too have lost my Signal history by migrating to
| a new phone incorrectly.
| 7bit wrote:
| The two are not related. Signal has no proper backup and
| restore, otherwise you could have restored.mulziple times
| over. It's one of the things that piss me off about signal.
| Just give me a fucking Backup that I can restore on android
| and iPhone and desktop alike!
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| They are related: even if Signal had a backup, you'd have
| to have some way to recover the key when you lose your
| device. For example, Matrix does offer backups but you
| need a key to decrypt the backup if you lose access to
| all your verified devices.
|
| Without some easy to use out-of-band key backup solution,
| an E2EE server backup is no backup at all.
| fl0id wrote:
| But it's not related to this story. Nobody prevents you
| from using services that do not operate like signal (and
| esp with desktop it is now very easy to backup your
| messages) Just use those. This is just about whether sth
| like signal should be allowed to exist.
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| The GP of my post was:
|
| > After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a
| lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't
| want end to end encryption.
|
| Effective backups and key management are 100% related to
| this thread
| nine_k wrote:
| No, the key is also on a piece of paper somewhere safe. On a
| piece of metal if you care so much, see crypto wallet keys.
|
| This helps against everything except a valid search warrant
| from your government. If you don't do outright illegal stuff,
| and don't live under an authoritarian regime, it should be
| fine. (If you do both, you have bigger problems.)
| Retr0id wrote:
| I'm pretty sure you just described iMessage + iCloud backup
| (among other setups)
| squigz wrote:
| This is not just idealistic - it's bordering on naive. Tech
| companies have proven, repeatedly, over decades, that they are
| not responsible with our data.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| And even if they _are_ at one point in time, there 's no
| guarantee that this behavior will continue. The rush to scan
| everything into AI is a prime example.
| dijit wrote:
| Your ideal situation is likely federation.
|
| But Signal doesn't want that, and most people are too cowardly
| to trust anyone other than the people who absolutely _must_
| make a profit running such a system.
| lukeschlather wrote:
| Federation doesn't help at all if your host is untrustworthy.
| This is a question of having strong data privacy rules baked
| into law and also a good compliance regime. In fact,
| federation can make things a lot worse since federation makes
| it a lot harder to reason about who is transmitting and
| storing your data.
| dijit wrote:
| Nothing helps if your host is untrustworthy.
|
| But need I go into the little rant about how signal
| controlling the clients and the network means you have to
| take it on trust?
|
| However the point of federation is that you _can_ find
| someone you trust. - and you get to control data residency,
| all those weird hard to comply with laws become super easy
| if your uncle hosts a family chat server that federates
| with others; or your ISP, or your favourite local library.
| Centigonal wrote:
| I just want to express how much I appreciate Meredith Whittaker.
| She helped organize the Google walkouts, She's been working on AI
| safety since at least 2016, She advised Lina Khan at the FTC, and
| new she's out here advocating for preserving E2EE. A lot of
| people online give her flak for her opinions, but she's been
| consistently very loud and occasionally influential.
|
| She's done some cool uncontroversial tech work too (like helping
| start M-Lab), but her advocacy is what is most interesting to me.
| I don't agree with all of her positions, but I like that there
| are still people in the tech world who are willing to take strong
| and sometimes radical stances on moral issues against the current
| of capitalism. I feel like she's the closest thing we have to an
| rms-type figure today.
| eterps wrote:
| I'm wondering if this proposal is enforced, and you opt out, how
| would it be known whether you're sending someone a URL? How would
| a URL even be distinguished from other text when you have opted
| out?
|
| I suppose you could detect some patterns, and it definitely
| wouldn't be clickable. But is the text google.com considered a
| URL for example? I guess it isn't?
|
| (yeah I know, it's a stupid law anyway, but just wondering)
| pera wrote:
| It wont be perfect and it will fail in stupid ways, by design.
| Sephr wrote:
| If you 'opt out', service providers can prevent you from
| sending _anything_ under these new rules. You might not even be
| able to reach out to support to complain without consenting to
| your messages being scanned.
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| It's like the oldschool scam days on MMO's.
|
| g3tfr33g0ld DOT som
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