[HN Gopher] Can you inherit memories from your ancestors?
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Can you inherit memories from your ancestors?
Author : giuliomagnifico
Score : 63 points
Date : 2024-06-17 12:47 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| ch4s3 wrote:
| This is such an odd preoccupation of places like the guardian and
| has a lot of the hallmarks of the discredited recovered memory
| movement/therapy[1][2]. There's never any discussion of epigentic
| changes that effect somatic cells vs gametes, or even of the
| competing definitions of epigenetic changes.
|
| Here's a quote from the article:
|
| > Scientists working in the emerging field of epigenetics have
| discovered the mechanism that allows lived experience and
| acquired knowledge to be passed on within one generation
|
| This is obviously such a nonsense interpretation of epigenetic
| changes that it's hard to take anything in the article seriously.
|
| Obviously there's real science happening around epigenetics and
| there are interesting findings, reporting like this is a really
| big leap.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered-memory_therapy
|
| [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/27/opinion/recovered-
| memory-...
| moralestapia wrote:
| >This is obviously such a nonsense interpretation of epigenetic
| changes that it's hard to take anything in the article
| seriously.
|
| No one (including you) really knows the whole extent of
| epigenetic effects, so I would suggest you give it another
| read.
|
| We are still at (estimate) 10% known / 90% unknown in Biology.
| Source: Biologist for 20 years now.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| I read the article, the linked study, and two studies citing
| the linked study. The claim that memories or "lived
| experience" is inherited is not supported by the study.
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| Erm...memories -- by any biologically reasonable definition--
| are separate from epigenetic changes. No serious researcher
| would conflate the two, other than perhaps hippy-dippy
| 'biologists' who struggled through 'Physics for Poets', as
| undergrads. Source: Biophysicist for 30 years now.
| moralestapia wrote:
| And yet ...
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248710/
|
| Btw, read the site guidelines. This is a place for
| discourse, not berating others.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Follow up work has not held up the 2008 article you
| shared[1], and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry
| over memories through metamorphosis.
|
| [1] https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-
| and-rewire....
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| Further, even if the study had held up, there is a vast
| difference between memories retained through an
| individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories
| along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction.
| The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Yes, I completely agree.
| moralestapia wrote:
| >and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over
| memories through metamorphosis
|
| Nope.
|
| The 2008 study is _" the first to demonstrate
| conclusively that associative memory survives
| metamorphosis in Lepidoptera"_.
|
| The article you cited does not disprove this, but rather
| it shows the brain structure of (some, at least) insects
| get completely re-arranged before/after their transition
| to adulthood.
|
| For me, this only makes the 2008 study _more_
| interesting, since the memories could still persist, even
| after a completely new brain architecture (!).
| ch4s3 wrote:
| That 2008 study has never been reproduced and the piece
| in Quanta points towards it being impossible. Our current
| understanding of memory is that it has a physical basis,
| so that 2008 study is likely wrong.
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| I'm not berating you. I'm ridiculing you. Anyone with an
| actual 20 years experience as a biologist would not be
| making such outlandish statements. From your profile, you
| seem like more of an app developer than a genuine
| biologist anyway.
| moralestapia wrote:
| This is definitely over the line.
|
| cc @dang?
| giantg2 wrote:
| Eh, I mean what other explaination is there for "instinct". You
| have genetic and epigenetic factors that give something a
| predisposition to respond to stimuli in a specific way. Makes
| sense to me, but it's just a theory (as most things are) and we
| have a lot more to learn.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| There's a big difference between DNA methylation on gametes
| leading to behavioral predispositions in offspring and the
| claim that memories and experiences are inherited.
| giantg2 wrote:
| It depends on what you mean by memories. I'm not a fan of
| the Guardian as I've seen stuff editorialized to the point
| it conveys misinformation. This article is poorly written
| to the point the writer doesn't seem to understand the
| topic.
|
| "Epigenetic memories" is different than colloquial
| "memories". The article seems to completely miss this. And
| of course people who haven't been exposed to that domain
| specific concept are likely to misinterpret it.
| everdrive wrote:
| It's intentionally misleading given that "memory" has a
| common understanding. If they simply wanted to keep the
| article approachable, they could even just simply write
| "they're analogous to memories, but don't work like
| memory as most people understand it."
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Memory is the wrong word to use even like that. To the
| extent that there is DNA methylation in gametes, it will
| up or down regulate the expression of existing genes in
| the DNA. Nothing is created de-novo as in memory, you
| can't look at the resultant gene regulation and look
| backwards to a cause.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Then please go tell all the publications and researcher
| that they are wrong for using the term "Epigenetic
| memory" in thier domain. Or are you a domain expert (in
| the minority if you are)?
| ch4s3 wrote:
| The study[1] mentioned in the guardian does not contain
| the phrase "epigenetic memory", and only contains the
| word memory twice, and both uses are of the conventional
| definition. The author in the guardian is misrepresenting
| the science.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3923835/
| giantg2 wrote:
| I agree that the article is garage. The point of
| contention is around epigenetic memory being a thing or
| not. It is a common term used in the domain, such as in
| this paper and others.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7225062/
| ch4s3 wrote:
| You could probably replace the word memory in that paper
| with maguffin and not change the meaning. It's totally
| unconnected to the common definition or the use in
| neurology. I guess what I'm getting at is that this kind
| of reporting obscures what's going on intentionally for
| the political aims of the guardian. Which I think is
| lousy.
| squidbeak wrote:
| Instinct is totally different from memory.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| That's precisely the problem outside of the lack of any
| direct evidence of the underlying mechanism.
| conradolandia wrote:
| How do you know?
| giantg2 wrote:
| Which "memory" are you talking about? "Epigenetic memory"
| is different, and it's related to, and influences,
| instinct.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Well, you've got brain wiring that causes you to respond to
| stimuli in a certain way. A small portion of that wiring is
| genetic (e.g. opposite sex attraction, fear of heights,
| disgust at certain smells), and the rest comes from prior
| sensory exposure (i.e. is learnt during your own lifetime).
| everdrive wrote:
| Is there a good, real-world example of how we think epigenetics
| works? I've seen a lot of mentions that "epigenetics _proves_
| that intergenerational trauma is real!" -- and at least to my
| eyes this feels like a stretch of the science. For instance,
| why are epigenetic effects inherited? Why is it not the case
| that in environment, the parents experience one environment and
| so some genes are expressed. (ie, epigenetics happens based on
| that environment) and then the children are in the a different
| environment, and so different genes are expressed.
|
| Do I have a wholly-incorrect understanding of epigenetics? Is
| there a clear and simple example of an epigenetic mechanism?
| gmm1990 wrote:
| just look up dna methylation
| everdrive wrote:
| Thank you, I will do so.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| It seems pretty clear for example that being an alcoholic can
| cause DNA methylation in your gametes such that your
| offspring have a higher risk above and beyond regular genetic
| factors to become an alcoholic. However that is at a
| population level and there are complicating factors.
|
| Inherited trauma is totally unsupported but up or down
| regulated gene expression based on environmental factors
| before your conception are supported by some compelling
| evidence.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I'm trying on a mental model re: Epigenetics. How does this
| look:
|
| Your genes are a recipe book, not a blueprint. What recipe
| is chosen is based somewhat on environmental effects. When
| you reproduce, you shuffle together the parents book + the
| earmarks on the pages.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| I'm not sure if that totally fits. There's a kind of
| signal amplification or de-amplification happening.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Yeah I was using dogear as a way of signalling "prefer
| this page"
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Yeah, I assumed that, but down regulating isn't well
| captured in that metaphor.
| margalabargala wrote:
| > Inherited trauma is totally unsupported
|
| This is only true if you take a pretty narrow definition of
| the word "trauma".
|
| One example would be an ancestor experiencing famine, who
| then passes down epigenetic markers have marked effects on
| their offspring in terms of health, longevity, and
| behavior.
|
| Here's a Nature article on it:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-023-01159-4
|
| > "Collectively, these discoveries infer the existence of
| "a heritable memory of starvation/hunger"."
| ch4s3 wrote:
| The Dutch Hunger cohort study is highly suspect. However,
| the idea that someone is literally starving to death just
| before or during gestation having some knock on genetic
| effects is not all that surprising. But again, the phrase
| "inherited trauma", as it's typically used is bunk.
|
| Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense
| even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're
| talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation
| of your existing genes, not some new information being
| encoded.
| biophysboy wrote:
| The basic idea is that genome modifications can be inherited
| with the genome. Methylation is one example; histone mods are
| another. If you want specific examples, I'd recommend
| focusing on a specific type of modification and searching
| "fill-in-the-blank inheritance", to avoid the more dramatic
| pop science.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Yeah but so many people _want_ to believe this idea. Consider
| all the history of people of "royal blood" as if that endeared
| them with the knowledge and skills of ruling. There is a whole
| industry that plays to this desire of people to "know". From
| palmistry to genetic memory, they are all bonkers.
| 47282847 wrote:
| I can not look into my genes so I know nothing about that,
| but what I can say with confidence is that trauma therapy
| continues to fundamentally change how I judge, act and react,
| and has deeply positive effects on all my relationships. I
| can totally see how that positively influences how my
| children will develop. That aspect of "passing on trauma" is
| very real. I now stay calm and regulated in most stressful
| situations, and in the few cases where I overreact I know how
| to and I have the ability to (!) make up for it later and
| correct my mistakes. And use the trigger to further heal past
| pain.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| The article is about genetic inheritance, not about
| inheritance in general.
| humansareok1 wrote:
| Can memories be explicitly encoded in genes? If not then no. End
| of the story.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| To the best of my understanding, no and I'm aware of any
| proposed mechanism.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Isn't the article describing in depth how an experiment
| showed it possible or did I completely misread it? It even
| explained the mechanisms behind it?
| ch4s3 wrote:
| The article glosses over some details of a decade old
| study, that might have maybe shown that some types of
| conditioning using electrical shock might have epigenetic
| effects that persist in gametes and effect later behavior.
| The study attempts to show it indirectly and hand waves at
| the mechanisms. It doesn't test for DNA methylation or
| anything similar.
| amelius wrote:
| From TFA:
|
| > The study made use of mice's love of cherries. Typically,
| when a waft of sweet cherry scent reaches a mouse's nose, a
| signal is sent to the nucleus accumbens, causing this
| pleasure zone to light up and motivate the mouse to scurry
| around in search of the treat. The scientists exposed a group
| of mice first to a cherry-like smell and then immediately to
| a mild electric shock. The mice quickly learned to freeze in
| anticipation every time they smelled cherries. They had pups,
| and their pups were left to lead happy lives without electric
| shocks, though with no access to cherries. The pups grew up
| and had offspring of their own.
|
| > At this point, the scientists took up the experiment again.
| Could the acquired association of a shock with the sweet
| smell possibly have been transmitted to the third generation?
| It had. The grandpups were highly fearful of and more
| sensitive to the smell of cherries.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| I read the underlying study. It's pretty shy on
| experimental details, and while an epigenetic change is the
| possible mechanism they don't directly show that. It's also
| a huge leap from the guardian article's claim that memories
| are inherited.
| moralestapia wrote:
| They're not claiming that, though.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| The article includes this passage:
|
| > Might this new understanding increase our capacity for
| self-awareness and empathy? If we can grasp the potential
| impact of our ancestors' experiences on our own
| behaviour, might we be more understanding of others, who
| are also carrying the inherited weight of experience?
|
| They are literally refereeing to the concept of inherited
| trauma and inter-generational memory throughout the
| piece. It's a favorite hobby-horse of the guardian and
| while they are somewhat subtle here and dress it up by
| picking a very old study, they are in fact talking about
| the kind of ideas appearing in popular self help books
| like The Body Keeps the Score, and other things in their
| orbit. The author of the article in question is hawking a
| similar book on the guardian's books platform.
| moralestapia wrote:
| It has a question mark.
|
| Claims don't have question marks.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| The whole article is full of similar statements, I just
| found that short paragraph illustrative.
| keithalewis wrote:
| But never the end of clickbait.
| dmd wrote:
| Your understanding is half a century out of date.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
|
| Note that I'm not claiming here that memories can be encoded in
| genes; I'm also not making a strong claim here that memories
| can be encoded epigenetically!
|
| What I am arguing against is the claim that the only _possible_
| method of transmission of traits is through DNA, which is what
| parent comment said, and has been out of date for quite some
| time.
| humansareok1 wrote:
| Oh yeah so you want to explain how Epigenetics can transfer
| the memory of my Grandfathers 17th Birthday Party to my
| brain?
| jvanderbot wrote:
| ELI5 attempt:
|
| Your genes are a recipe book, not a blueprint. What recipe
| is chosen is based somewhat on environmental effects. When
| you reproduce, you pass on the book + the earmarks on the
| pages.
|
| In your comment, the word "Explicitly" is the controversial
| part. Of course a memory cannot be _explicitly_ (like .mp4?
| lol) encoded in genetics. But effects pass on, or so says
| the field. It's the same as how the word "Memories" in the
| title is doing a lot of hand-wavey hype generation. Can I
| share a password or birthday party during intercourse? Of
| course not.
| humansareok1 wrote:
| >Of course a memory cannot be _explicitly_ (like .mp4?
| lol) encoded in genetics.
|
| Indeed so the answer to the question: Can you inherit
| memories from your ancestors? Is No. Full stop.
|
| You want to talk about how the vibes during your
| grandparents lives affected some obscure part of your
| parents health then ok. But these things are completely
| different.
| moralestapia wrote:
| >Can you inherit memories from your ancestors? Is No.
| Full stop.
|
| With our current knowledge, we cannot either prove or
| disprove this.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Yeah - so, if you want to be right about your takedown of
| the title using narrow interpretations of "memories", you
| probably can be.
|
| But if you want a nuanced discussion of the article, we
| should soften the gaze a little. That's all I'm saying.
| Angostura wrote:
| So, can you give any evidence or even point at a suggestion
| that inheritable epigenetics can encode inheritable memories?
| moralestapia wrote:
| Not GP, but keep in mind that absence of evidence is not
| evidence of absence.
|
| We would still be cavemen with that attitude.
| biophysboy wrote:
| Its not a brain memory. The argument is that epigenetic
| modifications can be inherited and thus the ancestor's
| environment is "remembered". As for how long it lasts and
| how much the memory is attenuated, well, that's another
| matter.
| passion__desire wrote:
| "Nobody would suppose that the fact that human beings
| everywhere always throw their spears pointy-end first shows
| that there must be a gene for a pointy-end-first instinct." -
| Daniel Dennett.
|
| Counterpoint : "But, as Weiss discovered in a 2008 study, moths
| and butterflies can retain memories from their time as
| caterpillars, suggesting that the creatures' nervous system
| remains during the transformation into a butterfly."
| HPsquared wrote:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3923835/
|
| "Parental olfactory experience influences behavior and neural
| structure in subsequent generations" (2014)
| frutiger wrote:
| > "Parental olfactory experience influences behavior and neural
| structure in subsequent generations"
|
| "[...in mice]"
| prokopton wrote:
| Fire up the Animus.
| hliyan wrote:
| Interesting! So basically: smell followed by electric shock (or
| some other painful stimuli) -> demethylation of (already present,
| but dormant?) gene that connects relevant olfactory receptor to
| the amygdala?
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