[HN Gopher] Being laid off and unplanned entrepreneurship
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Being laid off and unplanned entrepreneurship
Author : eightturn
Score : 342 points
Date : 2024-06-17 11:14 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.deepsouthventures.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.deepsouthventures.com)
| akskakskaksk wrote:
| As a fan it's strange to see no mention of vidaliaonions.com
| eightturn wrote:
| author here : ) that came after DudeRanch : )
| senkora wrote:
| Oh wow. I'd read that post before but didn't make the
| connection to this one. Well worth a read as well:
|
| https://www.deepsouthventures.com/i-sell-onions-on-the-inter...
| eightturn wrote:
| thank you senkora (author here)
| leetrout wrote:
| > I didn't raise any money for these projects. I funded them with
| my 9-5 salary. Solo. And the reason for that was simple - why on
| earth would I vehemently abandon boneheaded micro-managing layoff
| kings in the 9-5 world only to raise money & adopt a board of
| boneheaded micro-managing layoff kings in the startup world. If
| I'm gonna build, I'm gonna have free-rein decision making to
| pursue any and all ludicrous business models, with no oversight.
| If I fail, fine. That's on me. If it works, son-of-a-gun, my job
| will feel like play.
|
| I respect this. It's something I've wrestled with a lot over the
| past ~year (especially in the last 6 months). You can see my
| relevant "Ask HN: How would you raise $600k for a boring software
| co?"[0] in which I shared my musings around this with the
| community. I'm currently contracting because I have to pay some
| unexpected medical bills but I am hopeful I will explore
| solopreneurship more this year (I'd much rather not go it alone
| tho, as stated in the thread).
|
| I'm very lucky to have had multiple interactions with folks in
| that thread as well as having contacts that have raised funds and
| sold businesses... the advice is a resounding "not really doable"
| outside of a friends & family fundraise.
|
| All of this to say, I admire Peter (have read his writings
| previously) and I share the same feelings quoted above although I
| am still willing to entertain outside investors (and all that
| comes with that) for the chance to have agency in executing a
| software business with less "lose my house" risk. For the same
| reason I would also take a leadership position at a startup. I've
| seen the effects of bad management and lack of empathy first hand
| and I know I could make a difference and have a positive impact
| on the internal culture of software development shops... But I
| don't get many bites when I go fishing for that.
|
| [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37346497
| eightturn wrote:
| appreciate that, leetrout (Peter here)
| martin_drapeau wrote:
| Your thread is 9 months old. Do you have a product and a bit of
| traction? I was in a similar place to you back in 2019. Via
| side gigs I built a product that served a niche. Eventually,
| raised 180k with TinySeed (specialized in boostrapping B2B
| SaaS). Best move ever. Gave me and my cofounder a runway to
| find product market fit. We're now 8 full time at Activity
| Messenger and doubling year over year.
|
| Have a listen to the podcast Startups for the rest of us. All
| about bootstrapping. Get inspired and start building.
| leetrout wrote:
| > Do you have a product and a bit of traction?
|
| No. I spent some of my money while I was employed on
| contractors but it didn't work out. I am back on my own as of
| April 1 however I had a medical issue that lasted ~5 weeks
| with a few bills to go along with it so I am currently
| contracting to make money to pay those. The unexpected
| expenses were ~20% of my runway so I didn't feel comfortable
| just trying to absorb the cost. I also missed out on a
| conference I intended to attend.
|
| > raised 180k with TinySeed
|
| That is awesome - did you invest all of it in hiring?
|
| > 8 full time at Activity Messenger and doubling year over
| year
|
| Very impressive! Congrats. Turns out we're in a similar space
| (as are several dozen other companies, as I am sure you are
| aware). JackRabbit is one of my customer's most common
| platforms.
| throwaway42668 wrote:
| FWIW... look at the portfolio pages of lots of VCs. They're
| absolutely filthy with boring companies with boring products
| that obviously have absolutely no prayer whatsoever of being a
| "venture scale" business. Despite that fact, they managed to
| get multiple investors to put in Millions in capital. How?
|
| They bullshitted the right sounding bullshit to a specific
| audience who absolutely laps up particular flavors of bullshit.
| Sometimes the flavor changes (e.g. DevOps, enterprise SaaS,
| crypto, AI), but they're always hungry.
|
| You of course don't have to raise money if you don't want to,
| but I'm sure you could do it too for damn near any idea you
| come up with as long as you also figure out how to relieve
| yourself of any sense of self-respect and prostrate yourself in
| front of the altar of VC buzzworthiness and tomes of fortune
| cookie wisdom.
| tredigi wrote:
| I respect the part of diving in to build something on your own.
|
| I don't respect what he actually built. Leeching off others'
| work and while doing it blasting out ads which ended up being
| the first wave of making browsing unpleasant in the early
| 2000s. Without any actual contributions.
|
| And that then paired with "I didn't know how to code, and I
| hated reading." It's this attitude that software engineering is
| somehow what you do after having watched a fews youtube videos
| and discovered stackoverflow. My aunt still thinks that. Thanks
| for perpetuating that myth.
| eightturn wrote:
| I mainly 'leeched' the table, tr, td row design aspect, as I
| had no idea that existed.. fwiw, I didn't copy anything else
| (text, images, etc)... that 'scaffolding' was helpful until I
| discovered Wordpress. And I dislike ads just as much as you.
| I usually just put 1 or 2 on the page. no popup nonsense or
| 'blasting' ads, ha. Now, since I sell onions in the internet,
| I'm the one often advertising on these types of small niche
| sites, and they tend to perform better than larger
| properties... either way, my 2c. (author here)
| financypants wrote:
| But isn't software engineering one of the easiest domains to
| self-learn? I don't know of any other profession that has
| such vast amounts of completely free resources online.
| dinkleberg wrote:
| The amounts might be vaster than most, but it's hard to
| imagine that any profession doesn't have enough free
| resources online that can get you into it.
|
| The big difference with software engineering is that you
| can _just do it_ , similar to writing or design or
| animation or anything that is just you creating some
| output. In contrast, even if you learn everything you need
| to know about being a lawyer online you'll still need to go
| to law school and pass the bar.
| nudpiedo wrote:
| this is highly dated... 2004-2008, the opportunities were others
| than today's
| eatonphil wrote:
| > highly dated
|
| Article is published:
|
| > June, 2024
|
| I don't understand what you mean.
| rob wrote:
| Most of the stuff in the article happened between ~2003-2010
| at first glance, which is what he means probably (even though
| it was published in 2024.)
| eightturn wrote:
| (author here) just published this story today, correct..,
| been writing it for months, as I've been forgetting all the
| weird steps I took to get here..
| kaashif wrote:
| The initial events described in the article happened around
| 20 years ago.
| darkstar_16 wrote:
| The stories presented are from an earlier era but maybe still
| relevant.
| the_real_cher wrote:
| but the story took place in the early 2000s.
| verzali wrote:
| The opportunities are different, but the attitude of keeping
| your eyes open to opportunities and figuring out what works is
| still true.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| It is so noisy and crowded that I wonder if it is worth
| spending time and energy looking for opportunities.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Is it?
|
| Who are the top players in pest-management software? How
| much of the market do they have? How much of the market
| wants another application because the existing ones don't
| cover their niche? How easy/difficult would it be to market
| to them?
|
| I pulled Pest Management Software out of my ass because
| about 20 years ago I responded to a similar attitude by
| mentioning that while gardening I wondered if there was
| such a thing as pest management software (there is. It's a
| huge field) and also because last summer I was asked to
| build a small wireless interface to a mosquito sprayer so
| -- wait for it -- someone's mosquito control app could
| automatically monitor the amount that was being sprayed
| without the driver having to enter any data.
|
| Opportunities are everywhere but you won't find them unless
| you look.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| We are at a low point, where everything is gated and huge
| corporations will decide to scare your customers away. Of
| course, there are always lots of opportunities. But currently
| they are fewer.
|
| Anyway, I do think we have already seen the bottom of that
| curve.
| ericmcer wrote:
| This attitude is bad, but it is kinda justified. If you spend
| any time in the "indie hacker" entrepreneur space today it is
| oversaturated with people trying to root out every single angle
| they can possibly try to address with their tech solution. They
| are all listening to podcasts, newsletters and buying courses
| about how to be a tech entrepreneur, but the people selling the
| 'how to get rich' info are the only ones consistently making
| money.
|
| Total admiration for the author, it was very savvy to identify
| that opportunity and they put their money on the line. The
| modern self-made entrepreneur is less appealing. Success
| stories nowadays are like "We dropship japanese candy boxes" or
| "My Crypto Substack has 5k subscribers".
| dinkleberg wrote:
| I might be way off the mark, but I get the sense with a lot
| of the indie hackers it is less about the money and more
| about the attraction of the community and the sense of
| belonging. If you "build in public" you'll get attention and
| will be cheered on by the others doing the same.
|
| If they were really in it for the money then spending all of
| their free time for a couple of years to get a few hundred
| dollars MRR would be a fail, yet many of them keep at it. I
| suspect the rewards they get from being an active part of the
| community feel worth it.
|
| I think a better choice is to either go day job + hobby that
| isn't for money, as restricting yourself to what makes money
| is going to be less enjoyable. Or day job + heavily profit
| focused side business with the goal of quickly replacing your
| day job with said business, then freeing up some time to have
| your hobbies again. I think the mistake is trying to do both
| at the same time. You can't really focus on both profit and
| personal enjoyment in the same project (unless profit is a
| big source of enjoyment for you).
| jmstfv wrote:
| as someone who's living off of the tiny business income, there
| are plenty of opportunities to be found on the internets. some
| of these opportunities have a shorter shelf life than others,
| and that's okay; you can still make a killing before moving on
| to the next wave.
|
| you probably won't start ranking as easily as you could have 10
| or 20 years ago, and there is lots of competition these days --
| that's true.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Interesting and strangely uplifting story!
|
| Gotta admire the hustle and will to be independent.
| eightturn wrote:
| thank you HarHar (author here)
| amunozo wrote:
| Really inspiring read. I've been thinking about doing something
| similar but I always give up early and do not believe in it.
| eightturn wrote:
| really appreciate that amunozo (author here)
| mooreds wrote:
| View page source is, as was mentioned in the article, magical.
| The fact that by publishing something online you make it
| available for everyone else to learn from is astonishing.
|
| It used to be knowledge was locked up in books and putting them
| in libraries for free access was revolutionary, but libraries
| don't compare to the knowledge transfer benefits of view source
| in terms of cost and ease. (Obv libraries have a wider base of
| knowledge to distribute.)
|
| Even today, with all the obfuscation and minification, devtools
| offers a lot of the same benefits as "view source" did.
| eightturn wrote:
| (author here)... I honestly was scared of it first, as I
| thought if I edited the code, I'd accidentally change/update
| the other persons website...
| arp242 wrote:
| Few years back I ordered something from the internet. I
| forgot what exactly went wrong, but some JS nonsense
| prevented me from doing what I wanted to do and I no choice
| but to use this website.
|
| So I opened the inspector to remove that event handler or
| whatnot.
|
| My girlfriend was sitting next to me. "What are you doing?",
| "Oh, just need to edit this so it allows me to continue." The
| look on her face was priceless. "You-you c-can do that?!
| You're allowed to just do that?!" To be fair, I can
| understand her apprehension as I was wearing a balaclava and
| black gloves.
| blurpesec wrote:
| > To be fair, I can understand her apprehension as I was
| wearing a baklava and black gloves.
|
| Was it sticky?
| knicholes wrote:
| Have you ever had one that wasn't? That said, I'm going
| to go eat some balaclava now.
| hackable_sand wrote:
| Last time I unchecked a radio set I was wearing a black
| hoodie, so you're not wrong.
| leni536 wrote:
| > I was wearing a baklava
|
| Like this guy?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtqKIa_WFNU
| rasmus1610 wrote:
| I used to do the same with some online-training videos
| which would stop when I de-focused the browser window.
|
| I just overwrote `window.hasFocus()` to always return true
| in the browser console.
|
| This felt (and still feels) like magic.
| rodolphoarruda wrote:
| I saw in your "Moi" page a great emphasis on the domain name.
| I agree with you. I think domain names are the
| crystallization of an idea, a message. On the other hand, I
| see a lot of people from startup bubbles in X making fun of
| domain registration, suggesting that it is a "low bar"
| activity and doesn't represent any effort toward building a
| product. I disagree with this point of view. To me, the name
| is bound to the vision of a product being used by its
| customers. I cannot imagine something being used without a
| name or ID. I believe good names tell a story.
| eightturn wrote:
| great .com domain names were the cheat-code I was blindly
| searching for. The unfair advantage they present allowed me
| to compete head-to-head with larger entities. I still play
| in these waters.
| 6510 wrote:
| Ah yes, how our cozy internet of sharing was infiltrated and
| ultimately ruined by people looking to simply earn a living.
| Bigger players took down smaller ones (ruining things further)
| until we eventually stopped making websites _for them_. Earning
| money was replaced by fiat-like pyramid schemes. The remaining
| scrap was quickly "copied" into LLM's and soon I'm sure there
| will be all knowing humanoid robots walking around. What comes
| after that?
| myth_drannon wrote:
| The old and trusted face-to-face human interaction.
| 6510 wrote:
| And then?
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| We take up arms against a sea of robots. And, by opposing, end
| them.
| 6510 wrote:
| And then?
| giarc wrote:
| Were there other sites between AppalachianTrail.com and
| DudeRanch.com? Seems like a big jump from $3k to $17k, for
| something that, in my opinion, doesn't seem like a sure winner
| worth 5x the first one.
| eightturn wrote:
| I sold AT for $30k, and primarily used the proceeds from that
| to acquire DR.. I was still working 9-5 then also, so I was
| prepared to spend upwards of $50k to acquire DR (as that
| industry seemed like a good fit for me) (author here, fyi)
| darkstar_16 wrote:
| That is an inspiring read. I almost went down this path when I
| got laid off last. I still somewhat regret taking up a corporate
| job back then instead of focusing on something else. But then, I
| probably wasn't ready. Thanks for writing this Peter.
| eightturn wrote:
| thank you darkstar (peter here)
| jebarker wrote:
| The creativity displayed in spotting the opportunities is really
| impressive.
| dsco wrote:
| What a beautiful piece of writing, which hits close to home for
| me, as I've always kind of managed side projects and my full-time
| jobs during office hours.
| eightturn wrote:
| really appreciate that dsco (author here)
| ensemblehq wrote:
| Appreciate the post. Was in a similar situation myself - always
| wanted to be an "entrepreneur" but ultimately, needing to survive
| to feed the family is what kickstarted it all. I really
| appreciated how, even though you didn't have a technical
| background, you found a path that works for you and even more so,
| focusing on what you CAN do vs what you CAN'T do. And sometimes,
| you do get hosed on a deal at the start before you establish
| trust and credibility and then eventually learning your way
| around the trade.
| dkobia wrote:
| I've often heard the narrative from hiring managers over the
| years that a prospect who's been laid off probably doesn't make a
| good hire, especially if they've been laid off multiple times.
|
| In this wonderfully written and inspiring piece, perhaps we
| should consider that the real issue isn't the individual's
| capability but rather that their potential has been misdirected
| or they haven't been in environments that recognize and cultivate
| their unique skills.
| atrettel wrote:
| Your post reminded me of some thoughts I've had about a similar
| topic over the last few years.
|
| I'm a scientist, and I've often thought about how the work I
| and others would do would be different in different funding
| environments. That's the same idea of people's "potential
| [being] misdirected" that you are talking about. People often
| chase the newest shiny things and follow the money for both
| hiring and funding, but that isn't always good for both the
| people themselves and for innovation as a whole. We need to
| make it possible for people to develop their talents and
| skills, whatever they are and even if they don't match the
| current needs or desires of the environment, so they we have
| experts and experienced folks when the time comes for those
| innovations and technologies. It's the same idea as
| diversification in investing, with more agility and resilience
| gained from a diversity of skills and experience. I hope more
| funding managers and hiring managers realize the value of
| fostering people's potentials rather than focusing myopically
| on supposed current needs.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| This makes me think about all the psych grads, that went to
| school, wanting to help people, but are now writing dark
| patterns.
|
| But they are being paid a lot more than they would get,
| helping people.
| atrettel wrote:
| That's a great example of this kind of problem. People are
| pragmatic and take the jobs that are available, even if
| that it's not what they originally planned for or what
| would be more helpful. I've done the same myself a few
| times.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| > especially if they've been laid off multiple times.
|
| Every fantastic senior dev I have worked with has been laid off
| several times. Our industry is not immune to companies failing.
| You shouldn't discount people just because they've been laid
| off.
| mrsilencedogood wrote:
| "often heard the narrative from hiring managers over the years
| that a prospect who's been laid off probably doesn't make a
| good hire"
|
| While i'm unsurprised to hear that such a sociopathic and non-
| scientific narrative exists from hiring managers, I'm curious
| how they find out whether a departure was a layoff. For big
| companies, sure, you can probably tell that if someone left
| various tech darlings in late 2022 that it was probably a
| layoff. But like outside of that, how the heck do you know? Are
| you googling "$coname layoffs $year" for every entry on a
| resume you're screening or something? Or are you literally just
| asking them "tell me why you left each job" and people are for
| some reason answering honestly?
|
| This just seems really hard to actually pin down unless
| employees are volunteering the information. Even if you did
| leave right on a publicly-known layoff date, it seems pretty
| easy to just explain that "uh yeah they were doing so poorly
| they laid off X% of people, I left for greener pastures". Or
| that general sentiment but passed through 1 or 2 layers of
| word-smithing.
| sph wrote:
| I love the name 'unplanned entrepreneurship'. After a year of not
| being able to find decent work, I decided I might as well build
| something of mine, and slowly grow it to profitability. Which I
| did, and it's still not profitable, so I have to try the job
| market lottery again--which has killed a lot of motivation and
| momentum, but I'm back at it for the long haul now.
|
| As you are an expert in SEO, and I'm building a SEO-adjacent
| product, I would love to pick your brain. Email in the profile.
| eightturn wrote:
| thank you sph... it took me a while to cobble together a title
| that made sense.. and I'm far from an seo expert.. I learned
| the basics and sortof winged it from there.. ping me on
| twitter.. I hang out there usually..
| SebFender wrote:
| Sometimes we're just not built for the classic corporate
| environment.
|
| Let's not blame anyone and just admit that for many "... maybe
| it's just not for me."
|
| I find too many people blame themselves or others instead of just
| changing angles in life.
|
| This is a perfect example.
| llmblockchain wrote:
| I can relate to this, though I came into it already knowing how
| to do the coding part. I had no idea how to do the rest of it.
|
| My entire career was spent building valuable software for
| companies to generate large profits only for me to be laid off
| (and fired, once). After the firing I was quite angry and
| probably a bit arrogant.
|
| I went on a bit of a rage.. "I built the most successful product
| there, I can do it on my own."
|
| So that's what I did and I haven't worked for anyone else since
| (on 8 years now).
| Fin_Code wrote:
| I'm right at your starting point. Can basically build anything
| but committing to an idea is the sticking point. What product
| would you want to start with today?
| codazoda wrote:
| Reach out if you want to start a conversation. I'm thinking
| maybe a Slack for people at this stage. My email address is
| in my profile.
| brink wrote:
| Sent an email.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| What would make it different from other messaging
| platforms?
| Fripplebubby wrote:
| I think they mean, "I'm thinking of creating an instance
| of Slack that people can join and chat who are in this
| stage of their journey", not that their idea for a new
| company is like Slack.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| That makes much more sense :)
| llmblockchain wrote:
| I'm unsure if my advice is any good, but it's what worked for
| me. Here's the general thought process/flow I use.
|
| 1) Start by picking your customer. Pick a customer that is
| easy to find and has a clear channel to access them. For
| example, maybe I want to target sales people. I know a lot of
| sales folks use LinkedIn, seems like an easy channel to them.
| edit: Also, pick a customer that _pays_ for things. B2B-type
| customers. You don't want to be selling a product to
| teenagers, developers or anyone that doesn't like to pay for
| solutions :)
|
| 2) Don't invent anything new. Pick a well established
| idea/business that is already being done (and most
| importantly, people are paying for). Continuing on the sales
| example, I know sales people often pay for technographic
| data. There are plenty of SaaS products out there selling
| that kind of data. I build a list of them.
|
| 3) Scope the product down to its bare essentials. What
| exactly are the sales people buying? The products probably
| have a lot of fluff that isn't needed. Get rid of it. This is
| a good time to talk to the target customer. It can be nice to
| hear their complaints about the products they are currently
| using, etc.
|
| 4) Finally, build the product and ship it. Get the initial
| version out quickly and keep refining it.
| mraza007 wrote:
| That's impressive,
|
| If you don't mind can you share what have you built
| swayvil wrote:
| I for one would appreciate a list of "software products that the
| world needs and if you made this then you could make some money".
|
| (Not a video game)
| sebastiansm wrote:
| I need a software that do my work while I play guitar.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Build what you feel the world needs, instead of what you think
| other people think the world needs. It's much harder to guess
| what the average person will want than what you want. The world
| is big, so odds are other people will feel the same.
|
| It may or may not end up being a niche product, but that isn't
| necessarily a bad thing.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| For me, I found out that us "olds" are not exactly loved
| (actively hated, more like), and gave up looking for work, after
| being laid off from one of the top imaging corporations in the
| world.
|
| Pissed me off, something fierce, being treated that way
| (especially as I figured out it was being supported from the
| C-Suite). However, I have since realized that it was probably the
| best thing that ever happened to me.
|
| I enjoy writing software. So much, that I will do it for free.
|
| When no one's paying me, I get to do it the way that _I_ want to
| do it. No scrum standup humiliation sessions, no deliberately
| writing terrible software, so terrible programmers can understand
| it, no being told how lucky I am, to be "allowed" to work.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I quit a company that was showing all the signs of trying to
| get rid of its senior developers so a couple of us jumped ship
| before the inevitable layoff. I went straight into another
| place that the recruiter said "preferred to hire more seasoned
| engineers." In my 5 years there I only remember two engineers
| that were under 30. Median age probably hovered around 50.
|
| There are outfits that realize that you get better with
| experience and want to capitalize on that. Unfortunately, they
| seem to be few and far between.
| jhawleypeters wrote:
| Assuming the pool of engineers is growing exponentially, I'd
| expect a very small population of seasoned engineers.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I think that's why we got the two younger ones. At that
| time, they couldn't find enough experienced engineers to
| hire, so they tried two that were fresh out of school. They
| were pretty bright, but left after about 3 years each.
| wumbo wrote:
| oh but think of all the "refactoring" you're missing out on.
|
| We have a DevRel engineer specifically working to get technical
| debt tickets into sprints.
|
| So you get to refactor! Oh gee!
| pmarreck wrote:
| The head of Gupta Media (friend of mine) started his solo journey
| with a layoff.
|
| It really supports the perception of seeing a door closing just
| meaning you need to change direction and not to take it
| personally.
| renegade-otter wrote:
| I was putting off starting my SaaS idea for years (has to do with
| assigning code reviewers based on specific file patterns and
| notifying them on Slack) but the idea was much more marketable 10
| years ago when I first had it. GitHub did not even have the
| concept of CODEOWNERS back then.
|
| After getting laid off, I decided to roll the dice instead of
| looking for another work-for-hire. Yeah, it's too late, but I
| needed this just to get excited about technology again. I was
| seriously jaded from debugging the microservices spaghetti at
| every frigging job, trying to make a pile out of water and not
| actually _building_ anything.
|
| I torches through my savings, and no regrets. I am in my 40s, and
| the time to take a chance is running out.
|
| The point is, there is such a thing as "right place, right time".
| The idea and the _execution_ have to be well-timed. It might be
| too early, or it might be too late (as it was for me). Take The
| Globe, for example - the Facebook before Facebook. They failed
| because a) there were no phones b) not enough people online to
| get the network effect. Similarly, good luck getting your
| "crypto" getting traction at this point.
|
| If you have an idea, and you think the time is right - take the
| chance. Not knowing what will happen is part of the fun. Don't
| look at it as taking risk, look at it as rowing through a river
| and without knowing where the river goes. If you don't row, you
| will never find out what's around the bend.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| > If you have an idea, and you think the time is right - take
| the chance. Not knowing what will happen is part of the fun.
| Don't look at it as taking risk, look at it as rowing through a
| river and without knowing where the river goes. If you don't
| row, you will never find out what's around the bend.
|
| I think you kinda need to re-evaluate your relationship with
| uncertainty when doing something like this.
|
| As a wagie, unexpected news is nearly universally bad news
| (layoffs, corporate mergers), whereas the status quo is
| neutral-good.
|
| When you're starting up a business, unexpected news can be good
| (new customer, new investor), but the status quo is neutral-bad
| (slowly running out of momentum and funds).
| johnwheeler wrote:
| I run a chatroom for solopreneurs in case anyone is interested
| codingbutclueless.com
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| During the interview at the last place I worked, the owner
| described starting the company (20+ years earlier) because he got
| tired of being laid off. Figured that the risk of his new venture
| failing was probably on par with getting a job and being laid off
| again, so why not go for it?
|
| Can't really argue with that :-)
| Jun8 wrote:
| Peter, if you read this comment I suggest that you start writing
| a book _immediately_ , if one's not in the works: your simple but
| thoughtful writing style is awesome and makes the deep insights
| you provide even more delightful. I, for one, plunk down money to
| read 200 pages of this stuff interested with anecdotes from
| personal life.
|
| What are the insights I gained from this particular piece:
|
| * self depreciation is funny if done in earnest
|
| * note that the OP had a huge handicap (not knowing to code and
| ignorant of web technologies) but he was _not_ clueless: he had
| deep knowledge (at least deeper than most site operators) about
| the ad business and how to monetize
|
| * building up from the above, he innovated in an area what he
| knew, i.e. ads. He didn't try to jump into the idea de jour. Too
| many first time entrepreneurs miss this point.
|
| * he used simple tools and approaches(e.g. Yellow Pages, source
| view) but used them effectively. Didn't try to go after shiny
| tools, e.g. get on a bootcamp to learn web frontend development
|
| Overall vibe (don't know if it's a persona or the real thing,
| judging from the wackiness of his ideas I'm guessing the latter)
| from his writings is a person who you'd want to grab coffee (or
| beer) and just hang out with.
| eightturn wrote:
| thanks Jun8... writing these small essays is taxing (but
| rewarding) - I can't imagine what it's like to write a book
| (unlikely). If I ever do, it'll be similar to how Derek Sivers
| writes (short chapters)... no persona here, though.. just
| someone who's been laid off a lot, and channels William
| Faulkner style of writing..and also, hard to write a book when
| I've got onions to ship!! : ) (peter here)
| ilamont wrote:
| Had an epiphany like this after an earlier startup project
| failed, which my cofounder and I had tried to do following the
| formulaic approaches advocated by various accelerators,
| investors, and experts (often people with zero experience running
| a startup, but had been involved as angels after BigCo stock
| options vested, and then got into mentoring local accelerators).
|
| I hated the startup theater, pitching, networking, and
| accelerator applications including YC and TechStars and
| MassChallenge. My cofounder flaked. I wound down business #1,
| returned most of the investor capital, and then started out on
| #2, determined to do things completely differently.
|
| For #2, I had 3 criteria:
|
| 1) Prototype on my own, without an engineer
|
| 2) Don't just talk lean, do lean
|
| 3) The product _must_ generate revenue from day 1
|
| While I am not an engineer, I had strong enough digital skills to
| set up websites and leverage other tools to prototype. Month 1
| was building the prototype, month 2 was getting it out to the
| marketplace and actually getting some early sales ... and then
| plowing that money back into the business to improve the product.
| 10+ years later, the business brings in a respectable middle
| class income, has helped put my kids through college, and, as TFA
| articulated, lets me "pursue any and all ludicrous business
| models, with no oversight."
|
| Like a lot of people who bootstrap, I had to consult as well
| (still do, mainly as a hedge against platform risk). I am
| eternally grateful to my spouse who not only has an income to
| help support the family, but also good health insurance (more on
| this below, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40707068).
| grecy wrote:
| > _but also good health insurance._
|
| I'm always amazed how blatantly clear it is that having health
| insurance tied to employment _specifically discourages_ this
| kind of entrepreneurship, and the ability to "strike out on
| your own".
|
| Literally handcuffs keeping people at their jobs.
| matwood wrote:
| Yep. I've been saying for awhile now that universal
| healthcare would likely lead to one of the biggest small
| business booms ever. Not only does it help people strike out
| on their own, but makes easier/cheaper for them to hire.
| kingTug wrote:
| Same for housing. In Tokyo median rent price for a 1BR is
| $600-$700. No onerous contracts either with month-to-month
| rental options. The freedom to explore creative and
| business endeavors without these worries cannot be
| overstated.
| flippant wrote:
| On the other hand, it would make it harder for big business
| to retain talent.
| grecy wrote:
| You mean they would have to offer a good job with
| competitive wages, enjoyable work conditions, good
| benefits (mat leave, paid time off, sick pay, etc.) and a
| good career path?
| protastus wrote:
| This is a feature, not a bug.
| aksss wrote:
| This is why big business is not an ally for anything that
| makes health care cheaper or easier to engage. It's a
| great system for them.
| GenerWork wrote:
| I'm going to be honest, I don't believe this at all. It
| seems like one of those things that everybody says because
| they want it to be true.
| rbultje wrote:
| People don't appreciate how expensive health insurance in the
| US is. A high-quality PPO plan for a whole family on the open
| market can cost $4k/month.
| generic92034 wrote:
| On the other hand startup culture and entrepreneurship are
| much more common in the US, compared with the EU. But the
| latter does not tie health insurance to employment, in most
| countries. Probably other factors are more important.
| no_wizard wrote:
| Doesn't mean Universal Healthcare wouldn't be a net win for
| entrepreneurship.
|
| We should unlock all barriers to entry that we possibly can
| anoncow wrote:
| Universal Healthcare in the US will negatively impact
| entrepreneurship.
| sanderjd wrote:
| Why?
| anoncow wrote:
| IMO, one of the reasons US has done better with startups
| is because there are people driven by the difficulty of
| life. Make life easier and I think some of that drive
| will go away. US has had a good (although somewhat
| difficult for the people) balance for some time now. It's
| just an untested theory of mine.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| It's a net win for everyone except the middlemen.
| aksss wrote:
| I think to have an honest conversation about universal
| healthcare is to admit that it would cause health care
| rationing. Costs would be tighter across the board, and
| the best experiences of health care services enjoyed with
| (many) corporate plans would degrade, relatively speaking
| (unless supplemental private insurance continues).
| Doctors would probably make less profit, not just
| insurers.
|
| I think it's okay to talk honestly about that. There's a
| LOT of waste and purely indulgent service in the current
| system. And as a person striking out on a business
| venture, I don't need concierge health services. I need a
| health safety net.
|
| I think it hurts the conversation about UHC when that's
| waved away - telling people that they'll be bringing the
| best of low deductible in-network, gratuitously provided
| services to everyone.
|
| UHC isn't about bringing great service to everyone, it's
| about bringing a higher level of minimal coverage to
| everyone.
| sanderjd wrote:
| I don't think so. I think it means other factors are _also_
| very important.
|
| I think both things are true, that we're getting a bunch of
| things right toward a successful entrepreneurial culture,
| but are also getting this one thing massively wrong and
| leaving a huge amount of further potential on the table!
| ilamont wrote:
| It really is a detriment to entrepreneurship in the U.S., as
| well as early retirement for those who have saved up enough
| money but are locked into a job until Medicare kicks in at
| 65.
|
| One other observation: During the pandemic my spouse left her
| job to work with me full time. We had COBRA (health insurance
| based on her previous plan per federal law) for 18 months,
| which was great. Then we had to go to the open health
| marketplace. What a freaking disaster that was.
|
| If you make any sort of middle class income, which we did
| through my business, you don't qualify for any breaks in our
| state's marketplace (Massachusetts Health Connector). The
| broker database they had for small businesses insurance was a
| joke - no one ever returns your call; it seems they are
| looking for midsized businesses where their commission will
| be larger.
|
| I spent many hours comparing family plans on the
| Massachusetts Health Connector and eventually decided to
| bypass the marketplace and purchase insurance directly from
| the insurance company because it was a little less expensive
| and had a slightly lower deductible (but was still sky-high
| compared to COBRA/her previous employer's plan). We got
| reamed on the monthly insurance cost as well as the crazy-
| high deductible. She eventually went back to her old
| employer, and one of the primary reasons was getting access
| to affordable health insurance without crushing OOP costs.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| This is the whole point.
| jhawleypeters wrote:
| What are some good examples of countries with a different
| healthcare policy and more entrepreneurship, small
| businesses, and/or craftspeople than the USA?
| ilamont wrote:
| Taiwan has a solid national health insurance plan. The
| number of small and medium sized businesses is very high
| for a country with a working age population of 16 million
| people:
|
| _Taiwan boasted more than 1.59 million small and medium
| enterprises (SMEs), according to the White Paper on Small
| and Medium Enterprises in Taiwan, 2022. This accounts for
| more than 98 percent of all enterprises, an all-time high.
| Further, SMEs employed 9.2 million people, representing
| more than 80 percent of the total workforce._
|
| https://www.moea.gov.tw/MNS/english/news/News.aspx?kind=6&m
| e...
|
| I think the official number undercounts the many micro-
| businesses that exist around the food industry, markets,
| and services.
| aftbit wrote:
| Alright here are three health care reforms that we could
| implement without going all the way to Universal Health Care:
|
| 1. Anyone who pays cash for a procedure should pay a price
| that is no more than the lowest price that any insurance
| company has negotiated for the same service.
|
| 2. Anyone who buys a health care plan from the marketplace
| should get a price that is no more than 10% higher than the
| cheapest negotiated price any company pays for the same plan.
|
| 3. Anyone should be able to deduct the cost of health care
| for income tax purposes, not just companies that buy health
| insurance for their employees.
| kovezd wrote:
| Those are fair. But why impose them through regulations?
|
| Entrepreneurs see business potential on this arbitrage
| opportunities.
| marcus0x62 wrote:
| Well, for starters, two things come to mind:
|
| 1. The healthcare and health insurance marketplace is
| riddled with regulation. There is no such thing as
| offering a health insurance plan or a healthcare service
| in the United States absent any regulation. Every
| existing service is, more or less, imposed via
| regulation.
|
| 2. The current health insurance system dates, in its
| current form, either to shortly after WWII or to the
| adoption of the ACA, depending on your perspective.
| That's somewhere between 14 and 75 years. Where are the
| plans you speak of from these entrepreneurs? What are
| they waiting for, letting all of this sweet, sweet,
| arbitrage pass them by? Biding their time? Toward what
| end?
| heyoni wrote:
| Is that universal healthcare with extra steps? Almost, but
| on a serious note, why not go all the way with
| universality?
| brink wrote:
| Because universal healthcare is not the best solution, as
| is becoming increasingly evident in Canada and the UK.
|
| We need to fix the price gouging in the medical system by
| incentivizing competition. With the way things are
| currently set up in the US, the hospitals are essentially
| written a blank check any time a patient steps foot on
| their premises. If we bring competition between the
| hospitals with price transparency, the prices will fall
| dramatically.
| jplrssn wrote:
| > If we bring competition between the hospitals with
| price transparency, the prices will fall dramatically.
|
| How do you envision this working for say emergency care,
| where as a patient you may not be in a state to make an
| informed decision about which hospital to visit?
| brink wrote:
| Most ER visits are not life or death situations, and most
| would make a 20 minute drive over a 10 minute drive if it
| meant saving $1k. So the incentive is still there. You
| can say that I'm valuing money over lives in this
| example, but I think we'd be picking the lesser of two
| evils, as it's becoming increasingly evident that
| socialized medicine is stacking up its own body count.
| Working with society is all about incentives, and
| universal healthcare doesn't incentivize excellence, it
| incentivizes complacency.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| What non-emergencies typically bring you to the ED?
| heyoni wrote:
| Those aren't mutual exclusive. In fact having healthcare
| not be gated to the single few that can afford it might
| accelerate the process of fixing the issues around
| pricing.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Or just have Medicare for everyone.
|
| The current scheme only benefits rich people whose ability
| to pay outrageous insurance rates is easy and less than
| taxes. Poor people get substandard care, middle class
| workers get boned. I spend more on healthcare than taxes,
| and half my taxes are paying for stupid healthcare, either
| directly or through proxy.
| aksss wrote:
| All else being equal, I'd rather see the pricing pressure
| done by market competition rather than enforced price caps
| benchmarked against some metric controlled by the industry
| (see Medicare Part D - gov. negotiates hard to only
| reimburse xx%, drug industry says fine, we'll just raise
| the book price - you'll get your talking point, and we'll
| still get our asking price).
|
| So more significantly:
|
| * bring back association health plans across state lines
| and industries, so small businesses can band together for
| group rates. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-
| report/biden-admin...
|
| * Expand Direct Primary Care. https://www.dpcare.org/
|
| * Allow primary care physicians, dentists, etc. to offer
| services without a state board providing "certification of
| need". This seems to just be gate-keeping / moat-building.
|
| I'm not saying either or all of these are a perfect
| solution (nor do I think we need to find that solution
| immediately). As a small business owner, they'd make the
| health insurance handcuff problem easier to navigate by
| driving costs down.
|
| I will say this - flying solo without health insurance does
| make you a FAR better consumer of healthcare services. You
| will comparison shop (made easier by price transparency
| rules). You will critically consider the necessity of
| gratuitous tests / procedures. You will learn that doctors
| are running profit-minded businesses like everyone else.
|
| It also makes you reconsider some life choices (re:
| physically risky behavior).
|
| I think the biggest fear I faced was the lack of
| catastrophic coverage (cancer, etc.). When we didn't have
| insurance (both small business owners) my wife and I
| probably consumed less than $1000 of direct services
| combined, per year. That part (direct pay for services
| used) was fine. Walking the tightrope without a safety net
| for expensive medical developments was our biggest risk.
| With kids it's even less of an option to operate that way.
| I've known many that have returned to corporate jobs for
| this reason alone.
| JohnAaronNelson wrote:
| It's not as easy in reality as theory.
|
| 1) Services are often unique per patient. Even for patients
| with the same ICD-10 codes, the quality of service will
| vary. Hospitals cost different amounts to run. If you
| always peg the price to the lowest, it will be a race to
| the bottom for quality of service.
|
| 2) Patients are unique, with different health profiles,
| with different preferences for paying. Markets are
| different. Some markets only have one insurance payer.
|
| 3) Healthcare is already tax deductible
| johnkpaul wrote:
| Regarding #3, do you mean in the United States? That's
| not generally true. Your health insurance premiums, under
| normal employer plans, are not tax deductible, but they
| are paid pre-tax.
|
| Additional out of pocket healthcare expenditure is only
| deductible if you itemize your deductions _and_ you 're
| only allowed to deduct medical expenditures in excess of
| 7.5% of your income (AGI to be technical).
| lazide wrote:
| Paying something 'pre tax' is equivalent to, or even
| better, than it being deductible.
| dboreham wrote:
| This is not an accident.
| worstspotgain wrote:
| This is highly dependent on where you live. If you're
| unprofitable, you can qualify for Medicaid and various state
| benefits. If you're profitable, there are strategies that can
| make nearly all health care dollars tax-deductible.
|
| It should still cost you less to hire yourself than it'd cost
| a company to hire someone to compete with you, even before
| considering things like pass-through taxation and agency
| problems.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| The career accelerator people kill me. Honestly why do I want
| to hear from someone who's biggest risk was getting a job
| talking to people taking big risks.
|
| I have a similar startup backstory to this, for my second
| venture I went fully to the get paid to do your work camp. It's
| still hard, harder than anything I've ever done, but it's
| working out.
| hbn wrote:
| Like many things with the internet, it seems like if you got in
| at the ground floor you could do something like this. Now
| everything on the internet is cordoned off in centralized spaces,
| and there's a million businesses and random guys trying to figure
| out any and every possible angle to monetize overlooked markets.
| No way I can convince businesses to pay me for ads when they can
| be paying Facebook or YouTube who own practically every eyeball
| on the internet.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| The frontier is always moving. You don't see people looking for
| gold in California anymore.
| lassoiat wrote:
| You also can't assume you would strike gold just because you
| have a pan and the right timing.
|
| I know a guy that had podcast in 2009 or so. He had great
| timing but the problem is his podcast completely sucked and
| he has nothing interesting to say in general.
|
| Shifting things forward or backward in time would not have
| solved anything.
| glitchc wrote:
| I'm still stuck on how someone makes it through a history degree
| without enjoying reading.
| eightturn wrote:
| when my senior year rolled around, I still didn't know what my
| major was going to be. I visited a guidance counselor, and she
| viewed all the classes I had inadvertently taken, and I'd
| fulfilled 3/4 of a History degree (a Southern History degree,
| no less - they offer it at my alma, Ole Miss). So I just went
| with that and read a few more William Faulkner novels : )
| yardie wrote:
| I went from an EE major to Aerospace. Realized I wasn't going
| to make it. At the same time the market for aerospace
| graduates was collapsing. But I did have enough math and
| programming credits to graduate with a CS degree. And dumped
| those aerospace credits into an Astronomy minor. Sometimes
| the degree picks you.
| thr0w wrote:
| > I can't trust them anymore; I gotta figure out a way to
| generate revenue myself; from my own business; that I control.
| Online preferably.
|
| This was it for me. Pouring your whole self into your work, only
| to be laid off, fired, or skipped for promotion is soul
| shattering.
|
| $400k ARR solo. I'll never work for anyone again, I'll never feel
| compelled to be a yes man again, I'll never fake a smile for a
| drooling idiot of a C*O again.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Never say never.
| senordevnyc wrote:
| For real. I made $400k+ multiple years working for myself in
| a business that was a mix of product and services. But then
| divorce, business changes, and my own values shifting pushed
| me to get a tech job where I made even more, working less,
| with less stress. It was a great move, though I had to let go
| of some of my ego to do it.
|
| That said, after about five years of that, I'm ready to get
| back to working for myself.
| chaostheory wrote:
| Going on a slight tangent with unplanned entrepreneurship, the
| Korean PC cafes had their roots in their owners being laid off
| from their corporate jobs.
| Simon_ORourke wrote:
| I tried going solo out in Berlin after a few years working for a
| couple of the biggest douchebags you could imagine. Same idea - I
| didn't like having to answer to a douchebag every day, and didn't
| worry myself about getting FAANG money, so I tried a B2B start-up
| that tried to automate some compliance issues that most companies
| out in Germany face. Didn't get the product market fit right, but
| learned enough to get me in front of a FAANG-adjacent company who
| had an opening and that was that.
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