[HN Gopher] 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued ...
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'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing
motors
Author : zeristor
Score : 61 points
Date : 2024-06-15 09:11 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| krisoft wrote:
| From my perspective water is only at best a proximal cause. The
| big problem is that if the motor needs replacing five times
| during a two year waranty period that is a lemon and the
| manufacurer should give back the money one paid for it.
| cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
| I'm not sure how this adds any perspective beyond what's said
| in the article?
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| It sounds like a Kaabo e-scooter, a Samsung refrigerator, and
| most consumer electronics and appliances. Designed to fail
| because parts = $$$.*
|
| * In fairness, Kaabo e-scooters aren't designed, they're thrown
| together and spaghetti wire is rammed in every crevice without
| a sensible circuit or terminal diagram.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| So out of the list, Kaabo e-scooters seem to be the only ones
| where the obsolescence is incidental, instead of planned :).
| andrewshadura wrote:
| Somehow this is not a big deal across the Channel in the
| Netherlands. Yet another case of the British not learning from
| the Dutch?
| tbjgolden wrote:
| Do the same bikes magically not fail and have cheaper
| replacement motors in the fabled Dutch paradise?
| Kuinox wrote:
| Well for instance I don't see why an electrical motor would
| fail on a well designed bike.
| WJW wrote:
| Who knows about "the same bikes", but yes in general the
| e-bikes we have over here are quite reliable.
| makingstuffs wrote:
| As someone living in London and travelling to The Netherlands
| on a regular basis (intending to migrate), I have to say,
| pretty much everything from public transport to supermarket
| design seems of a much, much higher standard than its British
| equivalent.
|
| Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a
| country massively in decline and this transcends down to the
| quality of goods which we pass as acceptable.
|
| The bar of quality seems to have exponentially lowered over
| the past decade and the effects of such are now rearing their
| head in our day to day life.
| dwb wrote:
| I was born in England, live in London, have a Dutch
| partner, and also travel to the Netherlands often enough. I
| agree completely. They have their problems too (from the
| political to having to tap out on buses), but the overall
| level of quality and care seems rather higher. The sense of
| decline and disengagement is strong too. Difficult to say
| much objective about that (though keep an eye on the
| turnout in the upcoming general election), but I see it
| from all political persuasions.
| makingstuffs wrote:
| Yeah I agree that it is hard to be entirely objective on
| something as subjective as sense of decline -- lord knows
| I've spoken to Dutch natives whom hold an opinion that
| the country is 'not what it used to be'. I do get a feel
| that people, generally, seem less embroiled in a race to
| the bottom than we do in the UK.
|
| It feels that people in UK have been ground down to a
| point of 'ah well, it's all f*cked and always will be
| now' and, as such, people accept things like a PS5k
| bicycle failing multiple times within 2 years.
| namaria wrote:
| Why is tapping out on the bus a bad thing? It means you
| can pay for distance traveled instead of a flat fee.
| dwb wrote:
| It was sort of a joke, I'm mostly just not used to it -
| but also apparently it's a pain if you forget to do it.
| graemep wrote:
| > Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a
| country massively in decline
|
| To a large extent it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People
| expect decline so it happens. It has been happening for a
| long time - back to the 1960s or so when the UK became the
| only only country ever (still true) to have a space launch
| capability and lose it.
|
| That said, IMO the causes of this are widespread across the
| west. It is evident in the US, and the drift away from
| competitive free markets, the rise of culture war politics,
| short termism is business and politics, naivety about the
| rest of the world (disastrously reflected in foreign policy
| - Russia being the obvious example) and so on seem to be
| spreading.
| makingstuffs wrote:
| > drift away from competitive free markets, the rise of
| culture war politics, short termism is business and
| politics, naivety about the rest of the world
| (disastrously reflected in foreign policy - Russia being
| the obvious example) and so on seem to be spreading.
|
| I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Especially
| the naivety about the rest of the world. As someone whom
| travels to India regularly (my family are there) I have
| to say, people have no clue about the rate of change
| happening over there.
|
| In an extremely short space of time (I want to say at
| most a couple years) I've seen what used to be an all day
| journey from Delhi to Meerut be cut down to a couple hour
| bus trip through the building of the Delhi - Meerut
| expressway.
|
| I've seen the Delhi metro continue to expand its reach
| and new expressways begging building (in our home city of
| Batala a new motorway was recently started to take us to
| Delhi directly)
|
| Meanwhile the M25 continues to be a massive pothole with
| indefinite road works that never seem to complete
| graemep wrote:
| There is even more than that.
|
| The west (admittedly this not only a flaw of the west)
| tends to think its cultural norms, identities and values
| are human universals.
|
| There is also a tendency to think that the golden age of
| peace and prosperity the west enjoyed after the end of
| the cold war is the rather than the exception - it even
| lead to silly ideas like "the end of history".
| twixfel wrote:
| What does that have to do with German-developed and
| Hungarian-made electric motors breaking down in the UK?
| andrewshadura wrote:
| It's not the same bikes, that's the point.
| jajko wrote:
| How come? Article doesn't seem to mention that. That Cube
| bike for 5k ain't British producer, manufacturer is german.
| andrewshadura wrote:
| Cube is not a very popular brand of ebikes in the
| Netherlands as far as I'm aware. Definitely not for city
| bicycles. Gazelle, Batavus, Cortina, Vogue, Azor, but
| Cube? Not so much.
| graemep wrote:
| The article says many other brands have the same problem
| though.
| prmoustache wrote:
| The bike brand doesn't really matter, the brand of the
| electrical motor system matters. There are 3 big leaders:
| Bosch and Shimano on the high end, Bafang on the low end
| with Brose, Yamaha and a handful of other smaller brands
| occupying a much smaller fraction of the market.
|
| Bosch is also widely used in the Netherlands.
| andrewshadura wrote:
| It does matter since different brands may offer different
| levels of weather protection. Typically only Dutch
| bicycle makers care about things like proper mudguards
| and chain guards, for example. And some, like Azor go
| crazy and test their parts in a rust chamber.
|
| And, for example, the Cube bicycle as depicted in the
| article, is clearly not designed to be used in rainy
| weather. Who knows what else shortcuts they took?
| prmoustache wrote:
| > Typically only Dutch bicycle makers care about things
| like proper mudguards and chain guards, for example.
|
| That is not true.
|
| It is about class of bikes, not brands. Sure there are
| brands such as Gazelle who focus pretty much on those
| characteristics only but there are other brands doing the
| same all over the world alongside more racy models.
|
| > And, for example, the Cube bicycle as depicted in the
| article, is clearly not designed to be used in rainy
| weather
|
| The bike depicted is a mountain bike, so no it hasn't be
| designed with fender in mind but that doesn't mean Cube
| or any other non-dutch brand doesn't produce
| city/trekking/touring bikes.
|
| Having said that, I would expect a mountain bike to be
| built to survive wet and muddy conditions.
| pastage wrote:
| Not sure what you mean, I think it is more about buyer
| culture than what class of bicycle it is. So saying
| "Dutch" might be a good short cut.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| Different bike brands, but the same motor is very common in
| NL as well. Never heard a lot of failures and e-bikes are
| absolutely everywhere.
|
| One factor may be that in most of the UK biking is done on
| the road mixed with cars which may have more oil, sooth or
| other things in the water that gets on the bike, compared to
| dedicated bike lanes in the Netherlands. A lot of those lanes
| here aren't just a part of the same road, they're a few
| meters away from the road.
|
| Another factor may be that there is more of a longer term
| bike culture, so more people know about simple bike
| maintenance (spray the chain etc) or have a bike shop around
| the corner.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Well road condition can do a lot. Most of water that ingress
| into bike parts do not usually come from the rain directly
| but being sprayed by the wheels. So in theory well
| made/designed bike paths shouldn't induce as much dirty water
| spray as badly maintained roads full of puddles.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > Yet another case of the British not learning from the Dutch?
|
| This apparently affects Bosch motors. Bosch is a reputable
| company. Maybe they screwed up on these motors but I don't see
| how bikes used in the Netherlands, if they're using the same
| Bosch motors, wouldn't be affected. Especially seen the shitty
| all year weather we're all "enjoying" in our countries (UK /
| .nl / .be / .lu etc.). It's been, what, 8 months of rain nearly
| every day now?
| andrewshadura wrote:
| I guess the bicycles are better designed?
| tyingq wrote:
| The Netherlands does have a reputation for the best
| built/maintained roads in Europe. Maybe better drainage,
| fewer puddles and potholes? Plus flatter terrain, so less
| overall strain on the motor.
| prmoustache wrote:
| This. Road condition is the key. Most of the water you
| collect while riding, even with full length fenders, is
| dirty water sprayed by your and other users tires. The rain
| itself usually account for very little in comparison.
| jerlam wrote:
| The article mentions "mountain bikes" several times,
| which implies the failing bikes aren't ridden on roads at
| all. The fenders shown on the picture are not the same
| ones to be used on the road. It's possible we're talking
| about two completely different types of cycling.
| tyingq wrote:
| I'm willing to bet that most electric mountain bikes are
| ridden on roads.
| markus92 wrote:
| My uncle ran a bike shop, the amount of bikes that came in with
| broken displays cus of water damage is high. Usually it's
| warranty.
| bluescrn wrote:
| The Dutch benefit from nice flat terrain, so less need for
| power assistance.
| mrob wrote:
| But they have higher average wind speeds, and headwinds can
| slow you down as much as hills.
| secondcoming wrote:
| According to ChatGPT it's not that different:
|
| > Comparison:
|
| > United Kingdom: Average wind speeds range from 13 to 19
| km/h (8 to 12 mph). > Netherlands: Average wind speeds
| range from 15 to 20 km/h (9 to 12 mph).
| DrBazza wrote:
| Probably because the Netherlands doesn't have as much rain, off
| road and mountains as Wales?
|
| From the article.
|
| > The problem appears to mainly affect those riding mountain
| bikes in all weathers, particularly in Wales and the UK's other
| wettest areas, because they are not sealed properly against
| water ingress.
| zeristor wrote:
| Maybe the UK has the wrong kind of rain?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wrong_type_of_snow
| tbjgolden wrote:
| PS700 for a replacement motor? Bloody hell
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Bosch CX4 motors are a mere PS550.
| brippalcharrid wrote:
| You get this with anything that hasn't been mass-produced at a
| large scale and commodified for a long time. It's more
| remarkable that something like a car (or a mobile phone, or a
| CPU) is cheap than that something like an electric bike motor
| is expensive. And it could be that this is a poor application
| for this type of motor technology and that a better type will
| be developed and that we'll look back on this as an expensive
| relic that was holding us back.
| serf wrote:
| it's not surprising to me that the bosch mid-drives are failing,
| they're typically placed at an angle that catches all the run off
| from every tube at the lowest point on the bike (except on
| recumbents), and the controller is (usually) integrated.
|
| mid-drives are great, the gear advantage rocks; the bosch units
| suck but unfortunately they had so much industry sway that _a
| lot_ of ebike frames are coming out built around the unit --
| which is absolutely unlike any other unit out there aside from
| vague similarities to the bafang units in the same range -- so it
| forces replacement with the same garbage, or a total re-engineer
| of the gear train; a big pain.
|
| one thing to be said about the bosch unit : it looks sleek and it
| integrates well. This is likely a lot of the reason behind the
| mass adoption, aside from Bosch's presence itself.
| gjadi wrote:
| My local bike shop said they are all in Bosch because they had
| better reliability and less issues with their support compared
| to other companies and because of the commitment to long term
| spare parts availability.
| dgacmu wrote:
| The gear advantage of a mid-drive rocks but I was quite
| surprised that I chewed through a rear cassette in under a year
| / about 1k miles -- a 250W motor + heavy cargo bike + kid
| passenger + a large and pretty strong rider exert an awful lot
| of force. And with the assist, I almost never use the larger
| cogs, so all the wear gets concentrated. (This compares to
| many, many thousand miles on my road bike.)
|
| Still love the thing, though.
| wyre wrote:
| I have a friend in your same scenario. I've never thought to
| ask how quickly he goes through cassettes on that bike.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Would an internally geared hub solve for this type of wear?
| analog31 wrote:
| IGH's are not all that rugged. Most have a published
| requirement for a minimum ratio between the chainring and
| cog, that translates into an approximate torque limit. I
| love my old Sturmey Archer AW hubs, but I'm not sure I'd
| recommend one for the aforementioned use case.
| wffurr wrote:
| Shimano E5000 is an IGH rated for e bikes.
| hagbard_c wrote:
| Seeing how as I regularly managed to break the drive cross
| in my 3-speed SA hub just by pushing the thing real hard
| under pedal power alone - this is 40 years ago - I don't
| think they're particularly strong. I fixed my bike by
| myself so all this cost me was a new drive cross but still,
| it shouldn't break in the first place.
| devbent wrote:
| I just dropped a bunch of money on a Bosch based bike because I
| was told they are very reliable.
|
| I'm going to be very annoyed if that turns out to not be the
| case....
| glenngillen wrote:
| Bosch is in a bunch of high end eMTB setups, including a few
| of my friends' rides. We do plenty of wet riding, and the
| bikes have been hit with the hose for years now to clean them
| off when we're done.
|
| If there's a problem here I think it must be the frame design
| or the way they're installed and not an across the board
| problem with Bosch components.
| m463 wrote:
| > they're typically placed at an angle that catches all the run
| off
|
| aren't they also directly behind the front wheel?
|
| fenders, fenders, fenders.
|
| something unsexy with a flap / mudguard.
| joe_the_user wrote:
| I can't see how mid-drives are significantly superior. An
| electric motor doesn't need any gear advantage and sending more
| force to the rear wheel seems like it's actually a disadvantage
| since it put more stress on bicycle components that are often
| designed for just human levels of force.
|
| As far as I can tell, the mid-drives became dominant just
| 'cause people wanted to something looks more "seamless".
|
| I have rear drive ebike (Avanton Pace 300 v1) and I'm very
| happy with it (it was also cheap as a show room model). It's
| responsive and I can pedal up any hill to about a 25% grade.
| The controller is still mid-frame and the battery inset into
| the down tube. Thinking about it, my ideal ebike would be a
| heavy duty frame with all the components just bolting on (plus
| could use power tool batteries).
| lostlogin wrote:
| I've been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of
| late, and it's really surprising just how wet and dirty
| everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered
| in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in
| mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need
| really good seals to keep that crap out.
| discreteevent wrote:
| Do you have full mudguards/fenders?
| lostlogin wrote:
| No, and this would help. While it's commuting, I'm taking a
| route 3-4x longer than I need and picking off PRs. The fender
| helped a little, but was also finicky and I didn't get a lot
| of value from it.
|
| Your point is correct - some better gear would help.
| pastage wrote:
| Fenders needs to be big and cover all the way down to the
| ground back and front. Small fenders help with the worst,
| but good fenders are really worth it.
| vr46 wrote:
| As a biker, cyclist, skater, and ebiker, I've settled about
| various wax-like sprays to keep crap off and out. ACF-50 for
| the motorbike, various protective wax sprays for the bicycles,
| Vaseline for skate bearings.
| etrautmann wrote:
| Any brands for the bike sprays?
| andrewshadura wrote:
| Cyclon, for example
| vr46 wrote:
| Sure, the one I use right now is a German spray:
| https://www.weicon.de/en/corro-protection-wax-like-
| corrosion...
|
| YMMV
| andrewshadura wrote:
| Use mudguards, chain guard and coat guards.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Any recommendations? I had guards and found they rattled,
| slowed me and were less effective than what I wanted.
| simfree wrote:
| The guards aren't properly mounted (or perhaps lack
| sufficient rigidity & mounting points) if they are rattling
| and rubbing.
|
| It's worth it to invest in good guards to keep the mud off
| your bike!
| tchvil wrote:
| This one is cheap and light and works great on various
| bikes but on a 29er:
|
| https://a.aliexpress.com/_Eu2mwYj
| analog31 wrote:
| Link is broken, but my curiosity is piqued.
| wiredfool wrote:
| Honjo or Velo Orange. Aluminum, come in a bunch of sizes,
| depending on the frame/tires you're using.
|
| You still might need additional mudflaps on the front to
| keep the spray off the bottom bracket and rear for others
| rig is with you.
| ohples wrote:
| This is one reason I wish belt drives where more common.
| Loughla wrote:
| I feel like oil and those sorts of things would be even worse
| on a belt?
| bigfudge wrote:
| Most belt drives are run dry so the oil doesn't attract
| dirt in the same way
| kibwen wrote:
| It's not hard to find e-bikes with belt drives. Honestly, I
| think they'll take over the e-bikes market within 10 years or
| so (I think there are still some outstanding patents?). More
| expensive and slightly less efficient than a chain, but both
| of those are probably negligible for the context of e-bikes,
| and in exchange you never get grease on your pant leg, you
| never need to lube anything, you never need to worry about a
| derailleur needing to have its gears realigned or having the
| chain jump out (of course you _could_ have an internally-
| geared chain bike).
| jseliger wrote:
| Probably the most interesting, cost-effective one I know
| of: https://lectricebikes.com/products/lectric-one-ebike
| tacticalturtle wrote:
| I never see them in the US outside of city bike share programs,
| but I feel like most casual bike users would be better served
| by internal gear hubs and similar closed systems. The
| maintenance is minimal, outside of dropping some oil in every
| year.
|
| But for some reason, every bike in a bike shop, including the
| most casual upright bike, has a finicky derailleur.
|
| So instead we're doomed to a life of misaligned derailleurs and
| bent derailleur hangers.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I mostly agree - it's just that every flat I ever got was the
| read wheel and it's was a complete nightmare keeping the
| chain tension right.
|
| When it was working, it was a thing of beauty.
| jsiepkes wrote:
| Friend of mine has a e-bike from cowboy. The thing is 8 years old
| and has rust and other forms of oxidation on all kinds of places.
|
| Meanwhile my 20 year old koga miyata bike (which I also used for
| 10 years for my commute in all kinds of weather) has no sign of
| rust anywhere.
| vr46 wrote:
| Are you sure that's not just because it's cadmium plated or
| packed with other nasties that provided similar benefits? :D
|
| The guy that sometimes services my BMW goes on frequent
| unprompted rants about how the modern bikes corrode so much
| more easily, etc etc etc. Not once has he looked into why.
| defrost wrote:
| With _The Right Stuff_ though:
|
| _LandCruiser 'Mudcrab' driven 7km under water across Darwin
| Harbour_ A rag-tag team of engineers,
| commercial divers and rev-heads have successfully driven a
| waterproof electric vehicle 7 kilometres under water across
| Darwin Harbour, in a stunt they claim has broken two world
| records.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36928038
| tim333 wrote:
| Video of that https://youtu.be/1TD5uuUAhCY?t=723
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| If it's a Chinese e-bike, it's probably lying about being IPX67.
|
| OTOH, Riese & Muller $15k USD e-bikes aren't IPX anything because
| the Bosch components aren't. If you get it wet, just kiss that
| money goodbye. Absolutely bonkers.
| 39896880 wrote:
| I'm glad you wrote this. I have one of these, and I love it,
| but haven't ridden it in the rain. Now I won't. I thought it
| might be okay because, as you pointed out, it definitely wasn't
| cheap.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I think it really pays to go with an e-bike from an actual
| bicycle company. The Trek TQ system for example is submersible
| (IP67) and has a 2-year warranty, same as Bosch.
| mjevans wrote:
| Is IP67 safe to wash like a car? Soapy sponge and reasonable
| hose pressure (not pressure washer) spray?
| WJW wrote:
| IP67 means "completely dust proof and submersible up to 1
| meter". You can safely hose it down to clean it, pressure
| washers are probably a bit much.
| yabatopia wrote:
| Huh, that's not my experience. My wife rides to work on her R&M
| e-bike, every working day, all year round, in sun, rain or
| snow. Daily distance is about 40km (25 miles), two hours back
| and forth. Not a single major problem caused by water in more
| than 5 years.
| vr46 wrote:
| Good to hear this, since it encourages me to stick with the
| VanMoof I bought in 2019. Fancier, swishier bikes abound, but the
| VM just keeps on truckin'
| pagra wrote:
| I mount a 350EUR Bafang motor on my bike five years ago. I use it
| almost every day to go to work, even on rainy days (and this year
| is very wet). The display now shows almost 16000km. It never
| failed, although it's given as NOT waterproof...
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| Do you also leave it outside to sit in the rain? I found that
| bringing a bike indoors (regardless of it being electric or
| not) significantly improves the lifespan of most parts.
| pagra wrote:
| It sleeps inside, and parking is protected at work, sure it
| has some influence
| nothercastle wrote:
| It's because you use it daily. If you used it once a month it
| would rot to hell.
| jeffbee wrote:
| What is going on with that guy's bike. It is like the Canyonero
| XL Extreme of bikes. What kind of riding is it suited to? You
| wouldn't pop down to the grocer in a Unimog, right?
| analog31 wrote:
| It's hard to guess the use of a bike from its looks. When
| mountain bikes first appeared, most of the people who bought
| them intended to ride them on pavement, and perhaps rarely on
| trails. Likewise most pickup trucks and SUV's are bought for
| urban passenger use.
|
| At the time, the perception was that mountain bikes were just
| more rugged and comfortable to ride. There was a not
| inconsequential amount of marketing hype about the condition of
| roads, and the roads in some areas were in fact pretty crappy.
| Just due to market timing, MTB's were also where most people
| first experienced indexed shifting, which did improve the ease
| of riding a bike.
|
| In the case of e-bikes, there's a tendency to get "more bike
| than you really need" because the marginal cost is acceptable
| and the motor takes care of the added weight. And from a
| pragmatic standpoint, the difference may also be mostly
| aesthetic.
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