[HN Gopher] The Microsoft Excel superstars throw down in Vegas
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Microsoft Excel superstars throw down in Vegas
        
       Author : leotravis10
       Score  : 156 points
       Date   : 2024-06-12 15:52 UTC (2 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
        
       | sokolova46 wrote:
       | This was really cool to see, I imagine it was a lot of hard work
       | to develop
        
       | Terr_ wrote:
       | That makes me think of these two great parody videos from ~5
       | years back, of Excel using e-sport tropes, introduced but a
       | (fictional) livestreaming competitor nicknamed Makro.
       | 
       | "Microsoft Excel stream highlights"
       | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xubbVvKbUfY
       | 
       | "XLOOKUP" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ICp2-EUKQAI
        
         | LocutusOfBorges wrote:
         | Hyped for Ballmercon 2024!
        
           | Yhippa wrote:
           | ...is that a real thing?
        
             | dreadlordbone wrote:
             | it can be
        
         | robingchan wrote:
         | a fellow sheethead
        
         | schnable wrote:
         | and I thought these were just jokes!
        
       | fragmede wrote:
       | > hereThere is one inescapably weird thing about competitive
       | Excel: spreadsheets are not fun. Spreadsheets are very powerful,
       | very interesting, very important, but they are for work.
       | 
       | My nerdy friends have a saying. If you don't have a spreadsheet,
       | are you even having fun? Of course, their idea of fun is to
       | min/max whatever game is at hand in order to win as best they
       | can, which sometimes sucks the joy out of it for the rest of the
       | players but it's all also fun to see how broken some game
       | mechanics are.
        
         | golergka wrote:
         | Playing against professionals at the top of their game is
         | rarely fun for amateurs in any kind of sport. You just lose,
         | quickly, and don't even understand what's going on.
         | 
         | (Not applicable to semi-professionals, they can at least figure
         | out what's happening and learn).
        
         | LegitShady wrote:
         | If you enjoy problem solving and you're good at Excel often
         | spreadsheets can be fun. It's not necessarily playing a game
         | but about the satisfaction of logically laying out data,
         | transformations and calculations in a way that solves a
         | problem.
         | 
         | That's not fun for everyone but it is fun for some people. The
         | same way coding challenges and learn 2 code gamified websites
         | are fun for some people.
         | 
         | [Insert Dilbert "the knack" show segment]
        
       | verticalscaler wrote:
       | So there's this weird playlist about Excel by Martin Shkreli of
       | all people:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI_riscmviI&list=PLJsVF3gZDc...
       | 
       | It keeps popping up as he is apparently quick and knows the ins
       | and outs. But I've never bothered to go through it as it is seven
       | years old at this point and focused on finance.
       | 
       | Can anybody recommend something similar but up to date with the
       | new goodies so a fella could be competitive at this? I'm talking
       | more keyboard shortcuts and advanced features (many of them
       | overlap). The latest versions of Excel sort of open it up anew.
       | 
       |  _puts on headband and cracks knuckles_
        
         | brcmthrowaway wrote:
         | Shkreli had quite a following back in the day.. there was a
         | video archive and a few of his padawans got quite rich
        
           | filoleg wrote:
           | It helped that those streams of his were nothing what a
           | normal person from the outside would expect from him. So the
           | audience for his financial analysis streams self-selected
           | kinda nicely.
           | 
           | TLDR on those streams: it was Shkreli just opening excel
           | spreadsheets and going super deep on analysis of corporate
           | financials, in the most plain unemotional way possible. He
           | even did fun exercises to show his viewers how he works
           | things: the audience would vote for a random public company
           | ticker that Shkreli never analyzed betore, and he would just
           | spend the next few hours populating his excel spreadsheet
           | from scratch and trying to make some conclusions. With the
           | preference for picking companies that he actually knows
           | absolutely nothing about in terms of their finances.
           | Literally just gathering all relevant publicly available
           | information and analyzing it, with lots of hard numbers and
           | excel magic involved. No joking, no non-sequiters, no guests,
           | just lazer-focused on financial analysis. Not going to lie,
           | it blew my mind when i was first trying to follow along at
           | the time.
           | 
           | If you aren't into that type of a thing, i imagine it would
           | be extremely boring to watch, as it was nothing like his
           | "more known" livestreams focused on trolling and ragebaiting.
           | It was just cold "thinking outloud and populating
           | spreadsheets" type of content. The viewership numbers
           | reflected that too, with the financial analysis streams
           | having magnitudes less views (with most people not even
           | knowing they existed, despite being posted on the same
           | channel as his more popular and controversial streams).
        
             | verticalscaler wrote:
             | Sounds great. I wasn't aware he has a reputation as a stock
             | picker. All I know about him is that he had some
             | shenanigans with Pharma price gauging and that's both how
             | he made his money and ended up in jail.
             | 
             | The trolling is uninteresting except maybe the Wu Tang
             | thing.
             | 
             | I'm only after pure Excel-fu here. It is actually weird for
             | me that people use it to analyze stocks instead of Python
             | but I probably don't know what I'm missing.
             | 
             | Edit: The first few minutes seem neat, I'm biting the
             | bullet
        
               | infecto wrote:
               | I don't believe he ever got in trouble for pharma
               | pricing. It was securities fraud.
        
               | verticalscaler wrote:
               | Sorry I misremembered. The Pharma pricing thing just made
               | him an easy target for the media you are correct.
        
             | 7thpower wrote:
             | Well, I know what I'm going to be watching for the next few
             | hours...
             | 
             | I find these types of analysis very helpful at work and
             | building strong fundamentals has never left me regretting
             | the time investment.
        
             | brcmthrowaway wrote:
             | Didn't Shkreli get rich from the market way before his
             | shenanigans started? And he did it from scratch, the old
             | school, poor immigrant from New York way. Shkreli is the
             | misssed opportunity of the Obama years
        
               | filoleg wrote:
               | Yeah, he went working on wallst at some firm at 16 and
               | never went to college, comes from an albanian immigrant
               | family of little means (his dad was a janitor iirc).
        
           | booleandilemma wrote:
           | Shkreli would definitely be sith, and so he would have
           | apprentices, not padawans :P
        
         | SonOfLilit wrote:
         | I've watched Shkreli livestream financial modeling and I've
         | watched the excel world championship and he's on another level.
         | I'd study him any day.
        
       | mc_maurer wrote:
       | "the world's most important piece of software"
       | 
       | "there's simply no more powerful piece of software on the planet
       | for turning a mess of numbers into answers and sense"
       | 
       | I never want to be one to downplay Excel's ubiquity and
       | importance, but these statements seem a tad... hypberbolic.
        
         | hgyjnbdet wrote:
         | I genuinely would like to hear about a more important piece of
         | software for businesses. Or more used. In those respects I'd
         | have to agree with each of those statements.
        
           | mc_maurer wrote:
           | I think "for businesses" is probably the caveat here. It
           | feels like a trope to mention it at this point, but I think
           | the world would suffer greater consequences if, say, the
           | Linux kernel broke.
           | 
           | I'd also argue that Excel isn't really the most "powerful"
           | per se, but the most accessible and convenient for sure.
        
           | 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
           | It is for sure the most widely utilized functional coding
           | environment on the planet.
        
           | Cthulhu_ wrote:
           | SAP or Salesforce is often the critical piece of software in
           | many an organization. My current assignment (I don't work
           | with SAP though, thankfully) is an energy company with ~3
           | million customers, each and everyone's data is managed in SAP
           | along energy usage, billing/invoicing, the works. Small army
           | of people managing and maintaining it, too.
        
         | victorbjorklund wrote:
         | First statement maybe yes. Hard to find any software used in so
         | many places with so much money / importance etc.
         | 
         | Second statement hard no. It is a good balance of ease of use,
         | familarity and power but for sure not even close to being the
         | most powerful tool to crunch numbers on scale.
        
           | EricE wrote:
           | "not even close to being the most powerful tool to crunch
           | numbers on scale." So what tool would be that's as broadly
           | accessible as Excel is?
        
           | kube-system wrote:
           | "powerful" is being used there in terms of real world impact:
           | intuitively powerful. Not as in "raw compute power".
        
             | hot_gril wrote:
             | Yeah, the crown for raw computer power for crunching
             | numbers at scale would probably go to CUDA or, better yet,
             | TPU job executors.
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | The fastest supercomputer is actually running AMD chips:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_(supercomputer)
        
         | maxglute wrote:
         | But I do find this a fascinating question. What enables human
         | flourishing more? instant messaging, word, excel, cad,
         | photoshop, databases? Or something even more esoteric. I
         | remember someone saying if MacOS disapearred tomorrow, we'll
         | adjust, if older versions of windows disappeared, the world
         | stops.
        
         | SonOfLilit wrote:
         | They are true. As an entrepreneur, 90% of the time my most
         | serious competition is an Excel file.
        
         | unsupp0rted wrote:
         | What % of Global GDP would be lost within 24 hours if Excel
         | suddenly disappeared tonight (all other things staying the
         | same)?
         | 
         | A double-digit % would be lost, and possibly a very high one at
         | that.
        
       | LegitShady wrote:
       | I find the page style annoying. It does not facilitate reading.
        
         | lelandfe wrote:
         | Agreed:                   .cell * { color: black !important; }
         | .cell:not(.lede) { background-color: white !important;
         | background-image: none !important; height: auto !important;
         | border: 0 !important; }
        
           | unsupp0rted wrote:
           | And the font family
        
         | blahyawnblah wrote:
         | Yeah, my eyes couldn't take that for very long
        
         | razster wrote:
         | Closed it as soon as I saw that green. Just a bad design.
        
         | mandibeet wrote:
         | It helped me to wake up a little
        
         | apocalyptic0n3 wrote:
         | Switching to black on white makes it easier (there's an option
         | in the corner). In general, though, I like the thought and
         | effort that went into it. The Verge does these sorts of one-
         | time article layouts semi-frequently and I tend to appreciate
         | how they augment the reading.
        
       | nashashmi wrote:
       | I wish I had one of these competitive folks in my office next to
       | me teaching me new tricks. I used to do this for others. And it
       | was fun and I was popular in Uni and work.
        
       | tamad wrote:
       | If anyone's interested, here are some example cases published by
       | the Financial Modeling World Cup:
       | 
       | https://fmworldcup.com/product-category/case-studies/excel-e...
       | 
       | Most are behind a paywall, unfortunately.
        
         | canadianwriter wrote:
         | Looks like this one is free:
         | https://fmworldcup.com/product/the-forecasting-power-exceler...
         | 
         | The video alone lays out how these things work, very
         | interesting. My brain started solutioning right away. Lots of
         | fun.
        
       | julianeon wrote:
       | I would like to see this esport succeed, because I think the
       | numerical skills they're showing off are very commercially
       | useful, and getting more people interested in them would benefit
       | us all.
        
       | JCM9 wrote:
       | These things are impressive. It is funny that sometimes to do
       | crazy Excel acrobatics to solve what would be a few lines of code
       | in Python or other approaches.
        
         | listenallyall wrote:
         | Step 1. Open Excel Step 2. Start building your model.
         | 
         | Or...
         | 
         | Step 1. Open VSCode or PyCharm Step 2. Front-end... hmmm, web?
         | Electron? Qt? Jupyter? Step 3. venv Step 4. pip Step 5.
         | SqlAlchemy? Psycopg? Raw SQL? Import CSV? Step 6. "Where we
         | gonna host this? Local? Cloud? Serverless? Do we need Docker?
         | K8s?" Step 7. git init Step 8. "Hey, do any of you know what
         | these mean on the specs? IRR? COGS? NPV? I studied CompSci, not
         | this lame finance bullshit" Step 9. Call up Fred from
         | Accounting for some help. Step 10. Fred starts with Step 1,
         | above.
        
       | unsupp0rted wrote:
       | Ever tried to normalize/parse a list of dates in Excel? It takes
       | a formula a mile long, and I've never gotten it to work quite
       | right.
       | 
       | E.g.
       | 
       | 01/15/2024
       | 
       | 1/15/2024
       | 
       | 1/15/24
       | 
       | 01/03/2024
       | 
       | 1/3/2024
       | 
       | 1/3/24
       | 
       | Unless you write something in VBscript or whatever Excel uses
       | now, it's a nightmare.
        
         | HaZeust wrote:
         | I just do it in Google Sheets with Apps Scripts and then move
         | on from there.
         | 
         | function dateFix() { var sheet =
         | SpreadsheetApp.getActiveSpreadsheet().getSheetByName("Sheet1");
         | var dateRange = sheet.getRange("A:A"); var dateValues =
         | dateRange.getValues();                 for (var i = 0; i <
         | dateValues.length; i++) {         if (dateValues[i][0]) {
         | var fixedDate = fixDate(dateValues[i][0]);           if
         | (fixedDate) {             sheet.getRange(i + 1,
         | 2).setValue(fixedDate);           }         }       }
         | 
         | }
         | 
         | function fixDate(dateString) { var datePattern =
         | /^(\d{1,2})\/(\d{1,2})\/(\d{2}|\d{4})$/; var match =
         | dateString.match(datePattern);                 if (!match) {
         | return null;       }            var month =
         | match[1].padStart(2, '0');       var day = match[2].padStart(2,
         | '0');       var year = match[3];            if (year.length ===
         | 2) {         year = '20' + year;       }            return
         | month + '/' + day + '/' + year;     }
        
           | unsupp0rted wrote:
           | This is what I'm saying. It takes a dozen LoC to do what
           | Excel is theoretically built to do: format a column of dates
           | "as date".
        
         | hot_gril wrote:
         | Does DATEVALUE not solve this?
        
           | unsupp0rted wrote:
           | Nope. DATEVALUE fumbles this badly.
           | 
           | It's precisely for parsing dates but on a column with 1-digit
           | vs. 2-digit days/months and 2-digit vs. 4-digit years (all in
           | d/m/y format, mind you), it fails in one instance or the
           | other.
        
             | maxerickson wrote:
             | Text to columns with a date value? (it works fine if it's
             | one columns)
             | 
             | I expect it gets your example there right, but you may have
             | other issues in mind that you didn't push into the example.
        
             | elmer007 wrote:
             | I just put all 6 of the examples above into Excel as text,
             | then used DATEVALUE to parse them. It worked correctly for
             | all 6. However, in the immediate parent comment, you
             | mention d/m/y format, which 3 of the examples above could
             | not be, so perhaps the details of the issue you've
             | encountered are more subtle (such as 2-digit years that
             | require context to determine the century); but, at present,
             | it looks like DATEVALUE handles this well.
        
             | m16ghost wrote:
             | > (all in d/m/y format, mind you)
             | 
             | The examples you gave are in m/d/y format though, and
             | DATEVALUE() parses your examples correctly into Jan 15th,
             | 2024 and January 3rd, 2024.
             | 
             | DATEVALUE() parses ambiguous short date formats (e.g.
             | 1/3/24) using the short date format specified in the Region
             | settings of Windows Control Panel. So if you want to parse
             | d/m/y format, you can try changing the settings there.
        
         | SECProto wrote:
         | If you type those into cells in excel, they all display the
         | same. Excel doesn't store them as dates, it just displays them
         | as such. If you format it as a generic number, the first three
         | lines all show 45306, while the latter three lines show 45294
         | as the cell value.
        
           | unsupp0rted wrote:
           | In my case, usually the column comes into Excel via
           | copy/paste of a dozen mixed columns, or File-Open on a CSV.
           | 
           | The workaround, at least for CSVs, is to do an import via
           | "Get Data" -> "From Text (legacy)" and tag the relevant
           | column as "date". This doesn't always work though.
        
         | aspenmayer wrote:
         | I learned how to format cells in early 2000s on Excel, so I
         | know this functionality has existed for a long time, and these
         | instructions are valid all the way back to Excel 2016, and up
         | to current Excel 365. On Excel desktop, you can even set your
         | own custom date parsing format. I don't know if this will work
         | for you, but it is built-in and supported using the GUI, no
         | coding/scripting necessary.
         | 
         | https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/format-a-date-the...
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | The main hangup is probably around what year "24" should auto
         | convert to being ambiguous as that adds an extra IF() to handle
         | converting to 2024 instead of 1924. Beyond that it should just
         | be =TEXTSPLIT(A1, "/") and =DATE(D1, C1, B1).
         | 
         | If I was going to drop my hackerman shades and pull up to an
         | Excel code golf competition this is the "fewest total
         | characters using a single cell" I could come up with:
         | =REGEXREPLACE(A1 "^0?(\d{1,2})\/0?(\d{1,2})\/(..)?(\d{2})$",
         | "20$3/$2/$1")
        
       | chungy wrote:
       | I like spreadsheets to get things done quick 'n dirty, but I feel
       | like the threshold to where a spreadsheet becomes painful and the
       | problem is better solved with a database (SQLite would do) and
       | custom application is remarkably low.
        
         | iamsam123 wrote:
         | Fair, and the number of people that use Excel and understand
         | this sentiment is also remarkably low.
        
         | bluedino wrote:
         | Oh the ERP world...you get some stubborn user that refuses to
         | learn the reporting language or SQL, and instead wants to load
         | data dumps into Excel. Requires about ten times the hardware to
         | do the same thing.
        
         | tivert wrote:
         | Except that there's no real path for non-technical people to
         | learn and do that, but there is on for them to become Excel
         | power users and solve their problems with that tool.
        
           | mandibeet wrote:
           | You're absolutely right. Excel's accessibility is an ideal
           | tool for non-technical users
        
         | mcdonje wrote:
         | For some use cases. If someone is using a spreadsheet as a form
         | app, then sure. But spreadsheets are one of the best tools for
         | analysis work.
        
         | beau_g wrote:
         | I agonize over this decision a lot. I normally figure the
         | tipping point is about 8 hours of me looking into the data, or
         | planning to revisit it 3 or more times in the future. Whichever
         | way I choose, I normally later decide I made the wrong choice.
        
         | racl101 wrote:
         | If it weren't for the rest of the world using spreadsheets,
         | especially the clients we're supposed to impress, you know, the
         | people with the $$$ that can make or break one's business, I
         | wouldn't even bother with those spreadsheets. I'd just use
         | Python, Numpy and Pandas for everything involving 2 dimensional
         | data.
         | 
         | And of course ... I'd have less grey hairs ... :(
        
       | JCM9 wrote:
       | Spreadsheets have this strange productivity curve where for quick
       | and dirty stuff it's very fast but go deeper and the spreadsheet
       | turns into this unmanageable mess that greatly reduces
       | productivity long term (vs say using code to do the analysis in a
       | repeatable way).
       | 
       | The business world is full of the later. For example, some
       | bonkers monstrosity of a spreadsheet that Bob from finance built
       | 5 years ago. Bob is no longer with the company and said
       | spreadsheet is the only way the TPS reports get done each month
       | so the whole company is held together by this thing nobody really
       | understands.
        
         | n_plus_1_acc wrote:
         | Exactly. Because Excel sheets have no tests or code review
        
         | ok_dad wrote:
         | That's because corporate policy usually precludes running
         | actual code. I made plenty of huge ass spreadsheets when I
         | worked at one place because there was no way for me to do my
         | job otherwise, unless we wanted to pay hundreds of thousands of
         | dollars to specific developers to build and validate it. The
         | spreadsheets were okay because of reasons beyond my
         | comprehension. The key factor was, I think, that no one else
         | was allowed to write to the spreadsheets, they could just read
         | them and integrate that information into their decision making.
         | I was the only person who could modify and input data.
        
           | shagie wrote:
           | How much difference is there between                   =IF(A1
           | > A2, (B2 + B3), (C2 - C3))
           | 
           | and                   (if (> aye-one aye-two) (+ bee-two bee-
           | three) (- cee-two cee-three))
           | 
           | Infix vs prefix, coordinates vs variable names.
           | 
           | It is syntax on top of the essence of a functional
           | programming language.
           | 
           | And it has the same things. One liner of perl, python, or
           | powershell - anyone can write it and it doesn't take too much
           | to manage its complexity.
           | 
           | However, once you get into more complex relationships between
           | data and structures, it takes discipline to manage it.
           | Spreadsheets often are poor at giving you the tools to manage
           | it and so it takes more effort to make sure that you're not
           | making a mess.
           | 
           | A complex spreadsheet _is_ a complex program that needs to
           | have someone who has the discipline and abstractions
           | necessary to manage it.
        
         | iamthirsty wrote:
         | We used spreadsheets to manage offices -- there is about 15
         | separate offices -- complete data set (clients, analytics, call
         | logs) and each sheet has many, many different formulas
         | interconnecting all the sheets in the book.
         | 
         | We use Google Sheets, as we changed from Office at the
         | beginning of this year, and 10-15 times a day my tab crashes on
         | Chrome from just _existing_ , let alone when trying to do any
         | operations.
         | 
         | It's a mess, and I'd rather build a simple web app to replace
         | it, but don't have the time, approval, or financial resources
         | to make the switch. So instead of letting me improve 100+
         | peoples daily workflows, we just suffer.
         | 
         | Go spreadsheets!
        
           | rudasn wrote:
           | I know it sounds like a terrible idea,but next time you wait
           | for the tab to restart how about looking into the sheets api
           | docs? And the next time,try to write a quick script that just
           | makes updating the cells you need to update a bit easier. At
           | the end of it,at least _you_ won 't have to suffer.
        
           | epolanski wrote:
           | Afaik Excel is still way faster than Google Sheets.
        
         | personalityson wrote:
         | What is the alternative?
        
           | enjoyyourlife wrote:
           | Any programming language
        
             | svara wrote:
             | Honestly this is something you say as a person who doesn't
             | really run into the use cases for spreadsheets.
             | 
             | I've been writing code since I was a kid, but there are
             | jobs a spreadsheet is just the right tool for. Almost
             | anything that involves creating an overview of lots of
             | interdependent numbers really.
             | 
             | Excel in particular is a lot more powerful than you might
             | be aware of if you're a casual user, and I would honestly
             | recommend you learn it properly, as you would learn a
             | programming language, since it's a really useful skill to
             | have (1).
             | 
             | That said, I've often thought about what a programmer's
             | spreadsheet tool would look like. Scientific grade
             | plotting, N-dimensional spreadsheets, a real programming
             | language in the cell formulas...
             | 
             | Someone must have attempted it?
             | 
             | (1) By the way, ChatGPT is great at teaching Excel.
        
               | amarant wrote:
               | >That said, I've often thought about what a programmer's
               | spreadsheet tool would look like. Scientific grade
               | plotting, N-dimensional spreadsheets, a real programming
               | language in the cell formulas...
               | 
               | Someone must have attempted it?
               | 
               | That sounds suspiciously similar to any SQL database if
               | you ask me...
               | 
               | I like postgres myself, but people talk fondly of mySQL
               | too.. as for viewing the "spreadsheet", there are
               | probably hundreds of solutions. I'm partial to DBeaver
               | myself, if it's the spreadsheet feeling you're looking
               | for at least.
        
               | adammarples wrote:
               | It's not that they're not powerful, it's everything else.
               | Spreadsheets are great for quickly putting down some data
               | and evolving your understanding as you go. Make a pivot
               | table, filter it, make some charts, show it to someone,
               | throw it away. Where they come unstuck is on long running
               | more or less static important calculations that everyone
               | uses. This is because 1) no version control, so you have
               | copies upon copies being passed around. 2) inscrutable
               | formulas that should be documented udfs. 3) data with no
               | constraints like types, nullability, foreign key, so the
               | data has no integrity. 4) insufficient tests. 5)
               | insufficient error messages. 6) insufficient logging.
               | Etc, etc.
        
           | dwayne_dibley wrote:
           | Usually databases. 8/10 times I see excel used badly is when
           | it should have been access.
        
         | JCM9 wrote:
         | The killer app would something with the general ease of use of
         | spreadsheets but with the audit-ability and change management
         | rigor of code development.
        
         | scrapcode wrote:
         | I'm in a predominately administrative position for a large
         | organization, with an education in development and a lot of
         | freelance experience, but that's just not the path my
         | professional career took. Our system privileges are strict and
         | I have to dance around things like SharePoint, PowerApps,
         | PowerAutomate, Access, Excel, and sometimes VB Script within...
         | I have access to Node and Python, but user privs are blocked at
         | using npm. I've tried to request perms to utilize basic
         | packages such as Yeoman in order to develop in SPFx SharePoint
         | Framework and they consider each package an application that
         | would require a thorough vetting process
         | 
         | All that to say, it's an absolute cluster-fsck to automate
         | anything with the proper tooling. If there is any way I can
         | just do it in Excel these days, I do it. I've created some
         | pretty ridiculous stuff in it. The upside is that once I am
         | able to navigate cutting all of this red tape and use proper
         | tools, I'll have plenty of projects in mind and likely be asked
         | to return as a contractor for double+ the money to maintain
         | them in retirement.
        
         | mandibeet wrote:
         | Indeed but spreadsheets still are an incredibly versatile tool,
         | but their utility can diminish as complexity increases
        
         | listenallyall wrote:
         | Every criticism, like this one, of spreadsheets getting
         | unwieldy and confusing and difficult to untangle is entirely
         | applicable to most internal code bases as well. Technical debt,
         | old languages, uncommented code blocks, obsolete anti-patterns,
         | tied to some vendor product or github repo that has been
         | discontinued/abandoned, code copy-and-pasted from Stack
         | Overflow (or ChatGPT generated) that nobody ever understood,
         | horribly inefficient database calls, etc etc.
         | 
         | Further, even a big messy Excel model (including VBA code) is
         | usually self-contained in a single file, while a code-based
         | model can be dozens or hundreds of files, many of which are
         | support libraries for stuff that's built-in to Excel (front-
         | end, vector math, charting). And lets not get started on
         | breaking up a model into distributed microservices!
        
         | arsenide wrote:
         | Probably true in general. But there are always exceptions. Hard
         | to imagine a tool better than Excel for slot game math
         | calculations. Maybe it can be done?
         | 
         | Calculations for slot machine mechanics and payouts have been
         | in Excel for a long time. There can be a LOT of complexity in
         | these workbooks. Sometimes it's tricky to debug - but what's
         | the alternative? Code is often hard to debug too.
         | 
         | Simulating results (Monte Carlo) is nice but having two sets of
         | data for validation/checking against each other is nice.
         | 
         | I am not aware of any alternatives.
        
         | hcarvalhoalves wrote:
         | It's not just "spreadsheets", this happens to any software not
         | written by someone trained in software engineering practices -
         | e.g., some script written by a data scientist that only runs on
         | his machine.
        
         | 7thaccount wrote:
         | To be fair, regular code also becomes something nobody
         | understands. A spreadsheet might get big, but it doesn't
         | typically grow to like 20,000 loc or greater that somebody
         | wrote in spaghetti code. I mean they certainly can, but that's
         | a lot rarer.
        
         | doubloon wrote:
         | Yes.... you wind up with business people who know a ton about
         | business but nothing about software engineering.
         | 
         | No version control, no approval process, no source code
         | repository, no unit or regression testing, no logging, no test
         | vs production environment, no central place where all
         | code/macros are saved, no documentation.
        
       | mandibeet wrote:
       | Love Excel. When I was little was really into exploring its
       | features.
        
       | bbayles wrote:
       | I had a coworker who could really Go Fast in Excel, and by
       | watching him, learned enough tricks to be able to impress
       | onlookers by flying through computations with keyboard shortcuts.
       | 
       | From my perspective, it's gotten harder to use spreadsheet
       | programs efficiently with each new version - the keyboard
       | shortcuts collide more, and everything moving to Office 365 /
       | Google Docs / etc. has made the available tools less powerful.
        
         | surfingdino wrote:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxBg4sMusIg will turn you into
         | a more proficient user of Excel.
         | 
         | However, make sure you know the limits of Excel...
         | 
         | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54423988
        
       | queuebert wrote:
       | > Four decades later, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella called Excel
       | "the best consumer product we ever created." He doesn't just see
       | it as an enterprise tool. It's for everything. Nadella said he
       | simply can't imagine a world without Excel. "People couldn't make
       | sense of numbers before, and now everyone can."
       | 
       | So the best thing they ever did was make a clone of Lotus 1-2-3
       | and VisiCalc? Sounds about right.
        
         | pilsetnieks wrote:
         | You're just trying to be contrarian for imaginary internet
         | points. Satya is right about this one.
        
           | bbarn wrote:
           | People also seem to forget spreadsheets as a concept pre-date
           | computing.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-06-14 23:01 UTC)