[HN Gopher] Taking away iPhone made daughter a better person
___________________________________________________________________
Taking away iPhone made daughter a better person
Author : hackerbeat
Score : 109 points
Date : 2024-06-13 20:07 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| netik wrote:
| Articles like these which blame technology as the great evil,
| with a "what about the children! think of the children!" bent,
| are biased and troubling.
|
| The article starts by blaming then iPhone and social media and
| goes on to show how the child is a victim of poor parenting and
| divorce.
|
| Maybe the child's depression, anxiety, and longing for acceptance
| comes straight out of the broken home and not social media.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| It is a valid question to ask. Natural response would be to
| test whether rates of depression, anxiety and lack of belonging
| were reported lower or higher for previous cohorts.
|
| My take is less nuanced, because I already see some addiction
| in my kid to screens ( I would blame my wife, but I am to blame
| as well ), which prompted me to crack down on it. I think there
| is a lot of blame to share, but I don't think parents are more
| to blame than a corporation with nation-state level of
| resources to overcome objections, force trends and so on.
| sarchertech wrote:
| Maybe. But according to the author, she's doing better without
| the phone.
|
| From what I remember of middle school, having constant 24/7
| contact with my classmates would have been detrimental, so I
| buy it.
| yedava wrote:
| The kid's mental health improved when she gave up her phone. So
| there is that and also some research that justifies the
| causation [1].
|
| [1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-
| ill...
| pknomad wrote:
| Why do you find it troubling? The article doesn't claim that
| poor parenting and divorce doesn't have negative effects on a
| child. It claims that social media, amplified by technology,
| has had negative effects on his/her child. Technology is a
| double edged sword and good parenting is supposed to shield
| predatory action by social media companies.
|
| I think this quotation captures the sentiment the best: "She
| assessed her worth within a system where she was simultaneously
| attention-addicted and attention-starved. She'd internalized an
| algorithm where provocative content wins"
| williamtrask wrote:
| Note: netik's bio indicates they used to work at Twitter.
| pknomad wrote:
| that'll do it. Thanks william
| louwrentius wrote:
| That was exactly my impression
| owisd wrote:
| Unlike social media/smartphone usage, divorce rates don't
| suddenly spike in 2010 to match the spike in childhood mental
| health problems. Despite social media companies best efforts,
| there is no reasonable alternative hypothesis for what happened
| globally in 2010 to cause the problem.
| mikemitchelldev wrote:
| It's really amazing what I don't know not being a parent...
| peepeepoopoo76 wrote:
| The HN title rewriting "feature" needs some serious work. It's
| been consistently botching headlines lately. Maybe try using ML
| or something.
| mkl wrote:
| The person submitting puts in the title. Sometimes they mess it
| up, sometimes they break the rules and editorialise. No ML is
| needed.
| peepeepoopoo76 wrote:
| No, the HN software will automatically rewrite titles to "de-
| clickbait" them, except it often results in incomprehensible
| garbage. Lurk moar.
| sahila wrote:
| Sometimes I wish we wouldn't limit these studies / conclusions to
| just children. Certainly children are more susceptible and lack
| greater control than adults but the negatives of high phone usage
| and social media propagates throughout society and adults. Of
| course whereas a parent can take away their daughter's phones,
| who's to take away ours?
| josefresco wrote:
| My teens often tell me about how teachers (really just one
| teacher) in their school decry the usage of smartphones. I've
| told them repeatedly that the next time a teacher rants about
| "screen time" ask to see their iOS screen time numbers.
| Unfortunately (and smartly) they aren't interested in poking
| their teacher in the eye.
| bigyikes wrote:
| I'm not sure I've seen anyone disagree with the premise that
| phone and social media addiction is bad for kids (and probably
| adults too), and yet we still find ourselves in this position.
|
| What are we to do? Banning phone use on an individual basis is a
| recipe for social suicide. Some kind of collective action is
| needed.
|
| Legislation against phone use for minors is one option, but I
| wouldn't expect it to receive widespread support. Banning social
| media for minors might be workable, but it wouldn't fully resolve
| the issue.
| hot_gril wrote:
| It's not social suicide for a kid or teen not to have a
| smartphone (or to limit usage), so it's solvable individually.
| jader201 wrote:
| Curious, do you have teens? Most people saying things like
| this don't, but if you do, curious if you've tried this and
| it works/ed out for you?
| hot_gril wrote:
| It worked when I was a teen (not very long ago) and nearly
| everyone else had smartphones. I think the people who
| consider it social suicide are unconvinced that smartphones
| are a problem to begin with, which like I said is fine if
| they want that.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| Were you popular? I feel like social dynamics must play a
| role. I mean I'm pretty sure blue vs green bubbles are a
| big deal in some circles let alone social media.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Moderately, or at least, not socially dead. Only played
| video games on weekends, including a Minecraft server
| with friends, which in hindsight still became a bit of an
| addiction I would've been better without. I was popular
| in college, and I did have a phone then but barely used
| it. Having a Facebook account mattered in college purely
| for class groups, events, and group chats where people
| coordinated stuff. One thing I don't know is what
| replaced that (if anything).
|
| So basically, having a PC at home was more than enough.
| jader201 wrote:
| Another factor is how long ago we're talking, too. 2024
| is quite a bit different vs., for example, 10 years ago.
| hot_gril wrote:
| HS was 10 years ago, college was after. Since 7th grade,
| most kids had smartphones and were using them all hours
| of the day. Most people used Facebook, and by hs
| Minecraft was huge. What changed, aside from old
| games/platforms getting replaced?
| jprete wrote:
| I've heard Insta has a bunch of stuff that can replace
| FB's remaining uses (not just photo sharing, events and
| such) but I've never gotten into it so don't really know.
| hot_gril wrote:
| IG doesn't seem to have the equivalent. Events for
| instance, https://help.instagram.com/448430800019943 says
| "This feature is only available to professional accounts
| on Instagram."
|
| Just checked, I'm still in the largest school-wide FB
| group from college. It ceased posting in 2019 despite
| technically having over 100K members still. Gonna assume
| FB groups aren't a thing anymore and it's moved to
| Discord, but I'm still curious.
| stanford_labrat wrote:
| n=1 but i didn't have a smartphone until halfway through
| senior year of hs (2013-2014) whereas most of my peers
| had one from 2010 onwards. i wouldn't say socially
| stunted but popularity wise i would say not a full member
| of the social groups i was tangentially in, not in any
| group chats, etc.
|
| deep 1-1 connections for the most part because yeah i was
| texting and messaging people but other than that...i
| think it's probably only worse now. there are group
| chats/discords for each social group probably and not
| having a smartphone would mean you can't participate.
| simonw wrote:
| I'm willing to bet that social dynamics around phones at
| high school in 2024 are markedly different from 2014.
| stanford_labrat wrote:
| yeah i agree, if it wasn't clear what i meant to say was
| that i functionally didn't have a smartphone until high
| school was over, and as a result i think i was socially
| excluded from a lot of things - the social groups from hs
| seem to have survived college (which may be a quirk of my
| specific hs) whereas i only talk to two people who i was
| deeply close with.
|
| and i think it's even worse now.
| MisterTea wrote:
| Two years ago a coworker became the parent to a teen
| overnight after his wife's son moved in with them as the
| sons father booted him to make room for a new wife and kid.
| Of course this comes with behavioral problems, nothing
| serious just being rebellious and doesn't listen and the
| mother levies punishment as needed. Of course kids think
| they are slick but unfortunately for him his new stepfather
| is technologically very literate. So every few weeks I hear
| a new tale of angsty teen son vs parents.
|
| Today he told me the son was banned from phone use for two
| weeks as a punishment for something. Son hands the phone to
| the mother last night but she doesn't look at the phone. He
| asks her to check the phone screen and wouldn't you know -
| it was missing its sim card. Kid sim swapped to an old
| phone a friend gave him. Didn't work, mother confiscated
| his sim card. WiFi? Well the Unifi system he has setup in
| his house has a separate ssid for the stepson and his
| gadgets that gets shut off after 10PM on school nights and
| if he is punished, remains off until the sanctions are
| lifted. Kid is blacked out on personal devices but is still
| allowed to - watch TV if he is done with homework or go out
| with friends in meat space with strict curfew.
|
| The son deals with it because he has no other choice. And I
| have heard no complaints that he is dying a social death.
| Just stick to your guns and show them who is in charge -
| you, the parent.
| caddemon wrote:
| Taking away the phone for 2 weeks is different than never
| having a phone for the entirety of high school though.
| prettyStandard wrote:
| Says the hot gril...
|
| ...Seriously I have a hard time seeing it your way. Can you
| elaborate on your rational? Change my mind?
| hot_gril wrote:
| No. No I don't think I will.
| complaintdept wrote:
| It's practically considered child abuse these days to not
| give them a smartphone. I'm only slightly exaggerating. I
| think kids would be better off without them altogether.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| What? Giving them the phone. Or not giving them the phone?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Yes.
| complaintdept wrote:
| Clarified.
| hollow-moe wrote:
| obviously unaware about today's youth
| nineplay wrote:
| 'social suicide' is a vague term but my daughter has been
| spending a fair amount of this summer break texting groups of
| friends and/or playing online multi-player games with
| friends. Nothing good would come of my taking away her phone.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| yeah, I limit video game time for my kids but don't take it
| away as that's how they play with their friends currently.
| So outside time and sports during the day and I let them
| have game time with friends after dinner. Seems to be a
| good balance
| nineplay wrote:
| It obviously depends on circumstance - she doesn't have
| endless phone time but it's summer and this week she has
| few other plans.
|
| I don't wish her only social interaction to be on her
| phone but the fact remains that if I took it away forever
| it would mostly impact her ability to play with her
| friends. I don't personally believe that it would be good
| for her mental health.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Yup, I agree. Kids need to be able to talk with friends.
| Especially over summer when they cant always see them in
| person at school. I have zero issues with phones, its
| just the social media apps I am against.
|
| My kids have a Facetime video chat they all jump on while
| they game so they can see each other and talk, pretty
| great actually.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Idk how to say this exactly, but one thing I've learned
| from playing online MP games is that people aren't
| socializing on them, they're just being antisocial as a
| group.
| nineplay wrote:
| I'm sure it varies. The peals of laughter coming from her
| room suggest her experience is different.
| randomdata wrote:
| I laugh at the funny HN comments. It is still a solitary
| activity.
| hot_gril wrote:
| It depends on whether the laughter is about the game
| itself or some personal experience a friend has shared
| over VC. Cause the loudest room on our dorm floor was
| always the League+Melee room, and it wasn't cause they
| were sharing funny stories, it was because Falcon did a
| moonwalk short-hop reverse-knee fast-fall L-cancel.
| nineplay wrote:
| They are laughing because someone got killed by Glitch.
| Fortunately I do have conversations with my kid.
| Spivak wrote:
| That's a function of the games you play. Online games are
| a 3rd space for hanging out with your friends. Like sure
| if all you're doing is joining public matches on CoD or
| whatever then yeah it's pretty antisocial but hoping on
| Discord with your friends and playing Minecraft / Roblox
| / Fortnite / the current meme game de jour then it's a
| great time. My friends and I currently have a long-
| running game of Don't Starve Together going.
|
| And it's one of the few activities you can do with
| friends when you're stuck home on a school night.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Oh our main thing was Minecraft. Must be the longest
| running popular video game ever.
| lovethevoid wrote:
| This really isn't the case anymore. People are
| socializing in Valorant, they're socializing in Lethal
| Company, they're socializing in Roblox. Very little of
| this "antisocial in a group" stuff, which I assume you're
| mostly referencing to stuff like COD players screaming in
| mic at others (but mostly themselves), mostly because
| there are now better tools to detect and ban those
| participating in such.
|
| They've really become digital third places, especially
| when IRL third places have been overly monetized or
| destroyed.
| hot_gril wrote:
| I was the Minecraft server admin of my high school, csgo
| was big in college, I know how it is. Not referring to
| public matches like CoD. Just cause we were unaliving
| mobs and building stuff together doesn't mean we were
| socializing.
| OJFord wrote:
| That is nonsense, I was at school with mobile phones before
| the iPhone (before touchscreens, non-Java-applet apps, 3G,
| etc.) and it absolutely would've been even then. I mean
| _maybe_ you 'd have gotten away with it being active on MSN,
| but it'd have been a problem for sure (you arrange to meet
| someone and then just go there and hope they show up at the
| right time and don't want to change plans?) and I think far
| more so today without even considering social media like
| Instagram & TikTok & whatever that 'everyone' is using.
|
| (They weren't allowed actually _at_ school though, weren 't
| even supposed to be in your locker, so I always think it's a
| bit weird when it occasionally pops up debate about banning
| them from schools or that X school has banned them - curious
| when and why they _allowed_ them, or maybe they were just
| always allowed to begin with?)
| hot_gril wrote:
| Regular dumb phones were useful then and are still useful,
| just for coordinating. Smartphone is a superset of a
| GameBoy Advance now. Literally kids in my school were
| emulating GBA on their iPhones. There are in-betweens
| nowadays like a smartphone with parental controls.
| tanseydavid wrote:
| >> then just go there and hope they show up at the right
| time and don't want to change plans
|
| Why make plans in the first place then? Changing plans at
| the last minute is really inconsiderate behavior.
| OJFord wrote:
| Because you're 12 or whatever and _do_ have a phone and
| so-and-so just texted that _everyone_ (omg, right) is
| actually going to be down by the river instead, are you
| coming?
|
| Of course you are, but tanseydavid thinks he's meeting
| you in town and doesn't have a phone...
| hot_gril wrote:
| Teens don't plan things this way. It's more like, a few
| are together somewhere, someone is coming late, and the
| group is a moving target.
| OJFord wrote:
| I'm only just old enough for it, but before mobile phones
| (I mean, they existed, but we were schoolchildren not
| businesspeople, before small relatively cheap Nokias I
| suppose) we'd 'call on' people to see if they were in and
| if so did they want to do whatever/go wherever...
| Thinking about it now, I think mobiles probably had quite
| a role in changing that: we got phones and then just
| started texting (hey wuu2 do u wnt 2 go in2 town l8r)
| instead.
|
| I imagine now it's just straight to the latter, (albeit
| with less txt spk and more memes & emoji) because
| children get phones and start making their own plans at
| about the same age. (And not by coincidence probably -
| they're arranging to meet friends and going out alone, so
| parent wants to be able to contact them, to stay in the
| loop, etc.)
| lynndotpy wrote:
| My social life suffered greatly being one of the only kids in
| my highschool without a cellphone. This was the early 2010s
| in the United States.
|
| Imagine being a teenager and trying to include someone
| lacking a cellphone to your social group. It adds a huge
| amount of friction.
|
| Including someone without a cellphone means you give up the
| ability to be spontaneous (assuming the kid needs to adhere
| to an agreed-upon schedule to be picked up by a parent), and
| trivial things become a literal telephone-game ordeal.
|
| It also means almost invariably that the kid is relying on a
| friend's phone to communicate parents / a ride, unless that
| kid is so privileged as to own their own car.
|
| Could you imagine if every time you hung out with a friend,
| they asked to borrow your phone, open Facebook Messenger (or
| whatever sensitive messaging app you use), and to contact a
| parent?
|
| It also means the kid isn't included in group chats, which
| means they just aren't part of conversations other kids are
| having. You can't have a rich social life with someone you
| can only talk to in classes you share and for 20 minutes
| during lunch break.
|
| The "green bubble" phenomenon is bad enough as it is. I don't
| like it, but for all practical reasons, owning a cellphone is
| necessary for a kids social life in the United States.
| hot_gril wrote:
| I agree that a cellphone for call/text only is important. I
| had one too. If you need blue bubbles nowadays, fine,
| handmedown iPhone with parental controls will do that.
| euroderf wrote:
| > Could you imagine if every time you hung out with a
| friend, they asked to borrow your phone, open Facebook
| Messenger (or whatever sensitive messaging app you use),
| and to contact a parent?
|
| What if the parent could handle such eventualities - based
| on trust in the child - with no freaking out ?
| olddustytrail wrote:
| What an appalling, broken social life you want to condemn
| children to.
|
| I grew up before smartphones and I spoke to people around
| my own age. I arranged my own travel without parents
| checking in on me. Bullying assholes didn't need groups to
| amplify their message which was a good thing.
|
| How are things better now exactly?
| sarchertech wrote:
| I hope that by the time my 2 year old is in middle school, it's
| fairly normal for parents to keep their kids off of social
| media and smart phones.
| jader201 wrote:
| To the OP's point, without some collective support, I don't
| anticipate this happening.
|
| In fact, you'll likely have to deal with this as early as
| elementary school.
| sarchertech wrote:
| At least among my peer group, there's clear support for
| holding off on smart phones for kids until at least high
| school, so I have hope.
| trey-jones wrote:
| Like the other commenter in this thread who says "... not
| social suicide ..." I would suggest just implementing the
| rules yourself regardless of what society is doing. The trend
| (as you can imagine) is definitely still going younger and
| younger. And unless you have the funds to fight off the
| marketing teams of Google and Apple, I imagine that will
| continue.
|
| My kids are fine. Even with their parents fighting tooth and
| nail to keep them off devices as much as possible, they will
| still be on them sometimes (in your home or out of it). Maybe
| my kids are just weird to not be craving social media - just
| being able to send text messages to her friends seems to be
| enough for my 14 year old currently. Is that the same thing?
| My observations say "definitely not".
|
| They complain about it sometimes, (and I complain about their
| usage sometimes) but nobody is really angry and everybody is
| really reasonable. Your mileage may vary.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "My kids are fine." ... "Your mileage may vary."
|
| It almost certainly does. People are wildly different in
| their susceptibility to alcohol, gambling etc. We should
| expect the same wild variability when it comes to social
| networks.
| 31337Logic wrote:
| For everyone's sake, I hope you're right.
| vundercind wrote:
| From what I've seen _right now_ it depends on SES.
|
| Fussellian middle class in a suburban school: will call your
| kid poor and bully them if they don't have a _recent_ phone
| by 6th grade (often much earlier)
|
| Fussellian upper-middle in expensive private school: may not
| have a phone themselves until high school (handy for keeping
| in touch when at college-application-building extra
| curriculars), won't make fun of kids whose parents don't give
| them phone.
| bitwize wrote:
| I think you unlocked some core memories for me.
|
| When I was a kid I moved from a rich suburban New England
| town to one that was considerably more working class. When
| I lived in the rich town, no one talked about how much
| money the other kids' parents had, I guess because
| everybody was rich. When I lived in the working class town,
| everybody knew who the rich kid was and who the poor kids
| were, and where you shopped could get you admired or
| bullied. Wearing clothes from K-mart was a fast track to
| becoming a pariah.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| social media ban for kids goes into effect in Florida in 2025.
|
| I already forbid my kids from using any social network.
|
| They can use youtube with supervision.
|
| Social media is poison for young minds. Older minds too but
| thats another issue.
| cjk2 wrote:
| As a parent of three I'd suggest that it's probably the best to
| teach them to use them as tools not entertainment.
|
| As I quoted elsewhere, any extremist or reductionist position
| makes things worse for them.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| Nerd dad here. This is hard. You can lead a horse to water
| but can't make them drink. Meta Quest is the only tech that's
| being used as a tool in my house. Everything else are used as
| toys. I've even tried to restrict games heavily and it still
| was tough. Basically, some kids will not seek out education
| things even if they are installed. This was not my
| upbringing. I would eventually bore of games and looked for
| educational things like Dangerous Creatures, Microsoft Bob,
| Encarta, etc. But I am not seeing the same in my kids.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Crap time is fine. Not everything has to have educational
| value or they will get burned out. Variety is the problem.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Their comment implies that very little time is spent in
| educational content (all the time is "crap time"), which
| is the other extreme.
|
| What do you mean by variety is the problem?
| cjk2 wrote:
| Well I should say lack of variety. Games are healthy,
| communications are healthy, education is healthy. Too
| much of any of those at the sacrifice of any other is
| not.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| I have two boys 10 and 12. Same upbringing, same household
| culture, same screen time rules. The young one loves
| programming in Scratch, building levels in Roblox, creating
| music, exploring all kinds of creative projects. The older
| one has tried it all out, but prefers to just play games.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Yeah I only played games as well. They teach you how to
| solve problems. I am grateful for this.
| lovethevoid wrote:
| It is hard, but don't forget that toys are learning tools
| too! You can learn a lot without overtly feeling like
| you're studying. An example is playing a "learn math" game
| vs playing Slay the Spire which innately includes a lot of
| math you have to grasp. Or Hue to understand color theory
| and color grading without it ever feeling like a "lesson".
| Kerbal Space Program for basic physics, Portal for momentum
| and logic (Portal 2 can be great for coop sessions where
| they figure out how to collaborate and communicate through
| tough problems that seem impossible).
|
| A lot of the lack of curiosity is because so many kids are
| taught to view curiosity as boring, rather than fostering
| that curiosity as just another form of play.
|
| There are even things like minecraft plugins/servers where
| text is translated to a language of your choice, and
| everyone is encouraged to use only that language to
| collaborate which can be such an exponentially fast way to
| learn languages without ever feeling like it's a chore.
|
| So don't be afraid to seek out things that blur the lines
| between education and play! Foster that creativity and
| curiosity.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I think in order for parents to do this, they must themselves
| use their phones as tools and not entertainment.
|
| Kids are great at spotting hypocrisy, and if parents are seen
| zombie-scrolling through Instagram for hours, and then they
| tell their kids not to zombie-scroll because it's bad for
| you, well the kids will know their parents are totally full
| of shit.
|
| It's impossible for parents who are themselves addicted to
| smartphones to tell their kids not to be addicted to
| smartphones. The parents need to cure their own addiction
| first.
| cjk2 wrote:
| 100% agree with this on all points.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| This is probably true, but doesn't stop kids developing
| addiction on their own. It might encourage them to get
| started, but once hooked the inputs/outputs are the same.
| erulabs wrote:
| Social media is both a tool and entertainment. It's not
| entertainment that's wrecking kids. It's being in a global
| and immutable social circle.
|
| In the 90s, if you were a nerd in high-school, you get a
| chance to re-invent yourself in college, and another at your
| first job. Heck, you can re-invent yourself between different
| groups of friends. Now, we ask kids to define themselves
| completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of
| everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell
| someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's
| impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of
| all your failures and lack of successes.
|
| Tons of kids grew up glued to their Nintendos. I played an
| _insane_ amount of Starcraft. Our generation did not have the
| same negative effects that the current generation is having
| with social media.
|
| What we need is physical community based social media - ie: a
| facebook with only your high-school, which becomes
| inaccessible upon graduation.
| numpad0 wrote:
| That's Discord, Messenger groups, iMessage groups, ...
| squigz wrote:
| > Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly,
| all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up
| with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their
| lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an
| (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack
| of successes.
|
| For what it's worth, none of this has been my experience at
| all. I'm not even really sure what the first sentence means
| exactly.
| mentos wrote:
| I asked this question in a thread a few days ago and got
| downvoted. I'd probably have better luck preaching sobriety in
| a bar ha but I really think society needs to wake up to the
| toxicity of technology much like we did cigarettes.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| > I really think society needs to wake up to the toxicity of
| technology much like we did cigarettes.
|
| That's why I'm pretty wary of some other comments along the
| lines of "you just need to teach your children to think of
| phones as tools and regulate their screen time". I feel
| that's like telling kids "You just need to keep it to 3 or 4
| cigarettes a day."
|
| Sure, some kids may do OK with this (I happen to think
| they're really in the minority), but social media is
| fundamentally _designed_ to addict people. That is literally
| the goal of social media companies. So I 'm just a bit
| dubious that kids, especially young kids e.g. in middle
| school, have the ability to regulate that.
| nashadelic wrote:
| I'm not so sure. I see my 10-year-old daughter use her iPad and
| its very constructive, she's on screen sharing/video with her
| friends quite a lot, its healthy socialization. I imagine it
| becomes a problem when the child can't regulate their usage.
| But that's where we can use screentime and parental controls.
| 31337Logic wrote:
| > ... it becomes a problem when the child can't regulate
| their usage.
|
| That's now every child. Also, that was very much an
| _intentionally designed_ effect -- it 's no secret. Let that
| sink in. Your 10 year old is up against multi billion dollar
| companies who control the very tools you want to use to curb
| her addiction? (No, she is... We all are.)
| HenryBemis wrote:
| Doing math on Matific is great (or similar activities). It's
| the exposure to Social Media that is the cesspool of the
| internet, where the kids are open to receive messages from
| anyone and everyone, and have the algorithm showing them
| every garbage under the sun.
|
| People forget that the purpose of Social Media is to spend
| more and more time. "User Engagement" is the key.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| All it takes is one fateful string of recommended videos,
| access to Instagram ("everyone from school is on it!") and
| things change in a heartbeat.
| HelixEndeavor wrote:
| If we're to pass any sort of legislation, it shouldn't be
| against the kids, they're the victims of exploitation by greedy
| monopoly/oligopoly algorithms, we should legislate against
| companies like Meta, Snapchat, etc. the TikTok ban unless they
| sold off to an American firm that could be subject to US
| legislation was actually not the worst idea in the world
| (albeit I highly doubt the current Congress would've actually
| done anything constructive after the theoretical sale)
| slothtrop wrote:
| Consider what those who aren't glued to the phone are actually
| missing out on. More than ever, kids are choosing not to go out
| and spend time with friends, instead doomscrolling, binge-watch
| tv and chat on instagram or whatever. That's not a bristling
| social life, but it does behave as a surrogate for one.
|
| When kids hang outside of school, as was always the case, they
| usually live nearby. Notwithstanding that dumbphones and
| managed social media use are options, unless you think teens
| are all monsters (which would not be solved by phones anyway),
| it's not a lord of the flies situation of shunning people
| without phones.
|
| I think there's a culture of inactive shut ins and we're acting
| like this should be cause for FOMO. I expect kids would be
| happier if they actually physically see some friends more
| regularly anyway.
| acchow wrote:
| The parents that actually care need to get together and decide
| collectively on timeframes for phone use so the kids can
| text/social with time limits. Then enforce it with on-device
| parental controls.
|
| Maybe 45 minutes before school each morning and 1 hour the
| evening or something.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| Here in my local state we banned all phones at school!
|
| Everybody I've spoken to thinks its a great idea. Even the
| kids. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-06/mobile-phone-ban-
| canb...
| kyletns wrote:
| Legislation is absolutely happening! Check it:
| https://www.compactmag.com/article/ending-big-techs-child-ex...
| treflop wrote:
| I think a lack of self-confidence and a lack of a strong group
| of friends is the actual issue here.
|
| If you have both, your friends are always there to let you know
| how much you are loved.
| kyletns wrote:
| Soooo you just don't think that phones (with social media
| apps) are addictive and harmful for kids? The research on
| this is pretty clear.
| louwrentius wrote:
| Dear Chat-GPT, please write an article in the style of an abusive
| narcissistic parent with no writing skills.
|
| Make sure she lets shine through that her child distrusts her so
| much that she lies and keeps secrets. The relationship between
| parent and child has broken down, and the child is not to blame.
|
| Let the reader realize in not so subtle ways that the phone isn't
| the actual issue, and let them realize the author is an
| unreliable narrator.
| radiojosh wrote:
| As soon as the author talked about the zebra stripe scars on
| the daughter's arm, I knew it wasn't about just the phone. As
| soon as the author said that their daughter went from Pink
| Floyd to stereotypical duck lips and peace signs, I decided
| they were completely full of it.
| louwrentius wrote:
| I agree 100%
| jrflowers wrote:
| > my daughter is among the first generation of 10-to-14-year-olds
| active on social media
|
| This makes sense if her daughter is presently 25 years old
| sarchertech wrote:
| I think the author is talking about scale. There were
| definitely kids with social medial accounts 15 years ago. But
| very few of them had personal smart phones that they could use
| in bed at 3am.
| asmor wrote:
| I'm 30 and I was on social media, just with school internet and
| not a smartphone.
| kadushka wrote:
| I clearly remember 12 year olds who were active on LiveJournal
| and a couple other less known social networking sites back in
| 2002-2003. The only difference it was done via a desktop
| computer rather than an iPhone.
| Brybry wrote:
| Yep, millennial teenagers in my area were all over
| LiveJournal/Myspace/Xanga in the early aughts.
|
| And if one considers messengers like ICQ/AIM (or even IRC) as
| a form of social media then teenagers were commonly (in my
| area) using social media in the late 90s.
| cjpearson wrote:
| Most definitions of Generation Z would include both those who
| are presently 25 and 14 years old.
| jrflowers wrote:
| This is true so long as you consider Gen Alpha a subset of
| Gen Z
| trey-jones wrote:
| Well, I didn't read the whole article, but I can confirm that I
| like my daughter (14) better once her allocated phone time is up
| each day. She only just got the phone 6 months ago, and we limit
| screen time pretty severely with Google Family Link, so we think
| we're doing ok. We have discussed trimming the screen time down
| even more, since school finished up. Also, she's not doing any
| social media at all. Still, kids are more fun when they aren't
| staring at a screen (in my opinion and possibly contrary to what
| many believe).
|
| I think this is obvious to any parent, right? Too much screen
| time bad. I know it's bad for me as well, though my current bias
| is heavily against technology in general - I will admit that.
| cjk2 wrote:
| My kids are better for their iPhones. They have no access to
| social media and policies in place to make sure they are tools
| and not sources of entertainment and addiction.
|
| Absolutes on either end of the spectrum just lead to extremism
| which helps no one. This headline (the article one and the HN
| summary) are just extremism via reductionism. You can reduce this
| entire thing to a point but it deprives them of their instinctive
| tool using and building mentality.
| tmpz22 wrote:
| Not being on Social Media at < 14 is extremism? The same verb
| used to describe terrorists?
| cjk2 wrote:
| No that's basically the law. What is extremism is depriving
| them of what is an essential tool in these times.
|
| Teach don't preach.
| averageRoyalty wrote:
| Can you name anything that makes a smartphone essential -
| not preferable or convenient, but essential as you said?
|
| I hear this argument a lot, but I'm yet to hear an
| essential purpose they hold for anyone.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Well my youngest (13 year old) daughter uses it for
| Google classroom scheduling at school, transport status
| (TFL), payments, online banking, checking weather, taking
| photos and editing them, tracking her running and
| cycling, listening to music etc...
|
| While not essential for any of these, it's a tool which
| you can leverage for all of these to improve things.
|
| Edit: not to mention the iPad+apple pencil which is just
| _another_ way of creating art...
| averageRoyalty wrote:
| Absolutely agree these things are useful, and extremely
| convenient to have in a single device.
|
| However none of them are essential, and I'm not convinced
| any of the benefits of these conveniences outweigh
| ingraining this device dependance on children at critical
| habit forming points of their lives.
|
| Note that the trend of how addicted to their phone they
| are seems to directly correlate to their exposure when
| they were young.
|
| Boomers+: Barely at all
|
| Gen X: A bit
|
| Gen Y: A real problem
|
| Gen Z: I'd be surprised if 5/100 can watch a full length
| movie without looking at their phone
|
| If you consider at what point in life each group gained
| access to engaging modern tech, there is a clear
| correlation. Causation is a reasonable path to follow
| here, and it much too likely to risk young childrens
| exposure - in my opinion.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| What extremism? You're already doing what everyone wants, which
| is removing kids from social media.
|
| The article conflates that with not having a phone at all, but
| that doesn't make it invalid.
| cjk2 wrote:
| Well the article promotes an extremist position to solve a
| sub-issue which is the problem. It sells clicks. Then again
| it's The Grauniad so I expect nothing less. It's less than
| objective these days.
| wstone wrote:
| Woah! You were texting whilst driving?!
| CharlesW wrote:
| I'm curious about the mom's screen time metrics, and whether
| she considered giving up her own iPhone.
| AI_beffr wrote:
| the effect of hyperconnection is especially bad for girls. they
| can keep leaning into it until they fall flat on their faces.
| boys will tend to not engage with it to that extent even if
| available. its interesting that human society has been a wild and
| ill-advised experiment every since the introduction of
| agriculture. we are all going to eat nothing but carbohydrates
| and sit around all day, whereas yesterday we ate mostly animals
| and spent all of our time running around from place to place.
| since the start, insane and dangerous experiments have been the
| norm. if we choose to reject the madness, reject AI namely, it
| will be the first time in history. an experiment in and of
| itself.
| yedava wrote:
| If all the kids in the peer group have no cell phones, solving
| the mental health crisis would be easy. As long as some kids have
| access, the others will feel like they are being deprived of
| something fundamental, will resent their parents and will look
| for any opportunity to get on social media.
|
| A technological solution is to have complete control over the
| computing devices we "own". But that goes against the interests
| of trillion dollar corporations and so we can't have that.
|
| Like I was figuring out if there is a way to let my kid use
| Youtube with a select set of channels, but no. Youtube needs to
| keep showing suggestions on what to watch next. I would gladly
| pay for the ability to control what content my kid sees, but
| Youtube stands to make more profit by getting the kid addicted to
| their app.
| walterbell wrote:
| Apple iOS 18 Safari is going to allow "AI" customization of any
| website, that might allow removal of the recommendations panel.
|
| Another option might be a custom Youtube frontend or browser
| extension for filtering.
| somethingreen wrote:
| I don't know from where came this idea that not having a
| certain thing will inevitably ruin child's relationship with
| the parent and cause a collapse of at least some part of their
| life, but if it was implanted - someone somewhere should have a
| pure gold Marketer of The Century award on their table.
|
| Also, install Unhook Youtube - it allows reducing YT to pretty
| much just subscriptions and watch later.
| extr wrote:
| IMO the problem with phones for teens it that they have nothing
| to use them for except socialization. Adult phone addiction is a
| problem but phones are also tools for adults. Answering emails,
| calling the doctor's office, checking your credit card statement,
| etc. Teens have literally no use for phones except for
| communication/socialization. They also have abundant free time.
| One plan I've been thinking about for my own kid (currently 9mo
| old) is he's allowed to have a phone as long as he also has a job
| (or suitable job-like activity appropriate for a teen).
| mid-kid wrote:
| I would disagree. While I was a bit of an outlier and would use
| my phone primarily for tinkering, I would also use it to go
| down rabbit holes on wikipedia, play video games, read books
| and watch shows. Phones are glorified consumption devices, at
| the end of the day.
| Spivak wrote:
| > Teens have literally no use for phones except for
| communication/socialization.
|
| What do you think they're supposed to be using them for if not
| that? Socialization is the point. I was every bit the teenage
| girl annoyingly on her phone constantly but I was constantly
| talking to my friends / boyfriend.
|
| So much of being a teenager is being dragged places you don't
| want to go and being forced to be around adults you don't care
| about talking about insurance or escrow or whatever. But online
| was a place that was mine, where my friends were.
| swayvil wrote:
| Attention control seems to be a top cultivative practice. What
| you put your attention on, how long, etc.
|
| Good practice delivers health, sensitivity, kindness. Bad
| delivers bad health, bad behavior.
|
| Pleasure, habit and popularity is a bad guide here. You might
| actually have to fight for your sanity.
| TillE wrote:
| That's always what I think when I see adults complaining that
| they hate their phone. It's just a portable computer, you
| control how and when you interact with it.
| swayvil wrote:
| Well, "control" is a fuzzy zone. There's temptation,
| confusion, marketing... I mean, you choose which direction to
| swim but there's also a current to contend with. It can be a
| fight.
| IshKebab wrote:
| I wonder if there's a market for phones whose software can only
| do a few things. I mean: maps, phone, whatsapp.
|
| Obviously in theory stock Android can do that but they don't
| really take child locks seriously because they have the wrong
| threat model for it - they think "it only has to be securish
| because most children aren't going to be smart enough to
| circumvent it and it's not serious if they do anyway", instead of
| "it has to be actually secure because you only need one smart
| child out of thousands to figure out a bypass and it is serious
| because it affects peoples lives".
|
| So maybe you could have an Android distro where it literally
| white-lists a few apps and servers at the OS level.
| turboat wrote:
| Yes, the market exists and there are several competitors.
|
| I've looked at https://sunbeamwireless.com, which runs their
| Android variant, BasicOS. Haven't purchased yet though. Light
| Phone is similar.
|
| Gabb and Pinwheel sell phones oriented at kids, and both have
| OSes based on Android.
|
| Unfortunately, as you say stock Android as well as iOS don't
| make effective locks. What they offer is passable for parents
| managing their kids' phones, although in practice kids often
| find ways to bypass.
|
| It's very difficult for an adult who wants to self-regulate.
| There are some hacks you can do, like MDM, but it's not at all
| straightforward.
|
| I'm looking to connect with people about this topic. In fact I
| want a business partner, although I'm also interested in people
| who just have input.
| walterbell wrote:
| Has anyone made a rate-limited phone UX? Not just measuring
| screen time, but pre-agreed quotas, e.g. N mins per hour during
| specific time periods or locations, for the entire phone,
| specific apps, and/or contact groups.
| adolph wrote:
| iOS parent controls handle this pretty ok. The time limits can
| be by application class (which can be customized) or
| individually. The controls are linked to their Apple ID, so the
| same permissions flow across devices: tablet, phone, watch
| (probably desktop too?). The child can request "more time" on
| an app and an alert pops up on the parents' devices (which can
| be _obnoxious_ until some boundaries are set). The
| communication /contacts control strikes a reasonable balance
| too.
|
| I think the cell enabled watch offers better mobile function
| than carrying around a full phone and its baggage of
| capability.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| We went the cell enabled watch route and it's not there yet.
|
| Calling and location often don't work, even though there is
| perfect mobile signal. Updates must be managed from a phone,
| so you need one anyway. Maps are not easy to use, you can't
| do simple stuff like a google search or look up train times.
| christkv wrote:
| Our solution has been feature flip phones and encouraging the
| kids to call their friends to talk instead.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| It's not just kids. I'm literally watching dozens of
| relationships of people I know IRL breaking down... depressed and
| angry teenagers fighting with parents, couples divorcing,
| jealousy and suspicion tearing friendships apart. It's fucked up.
| Smartphones and social media are at right at the heart of it.
| These are dark times to live through and I hope to see an age
| when all of this is repaired and behind us, and we can find a
| kinder, more mature and saner use for technology.
| HenryBemis wrote:
| Every time a parent asks me for suggestions (and they do.. a
| lot!) on "how can I stay in touch with my kid but not give
| him/her a smartphone", I suggest they switch to Apple ecosystem
| and get some cheap second-hand iPhone for the parent(s), and an
| second-hand Apple Watch 4 (or later) that has LTE and GPS. With
| this they can add an e-sim to the watch with unlimited minutes,
| and they can stay in touch with their kids 24/7, track their
| location, etc. Just remember to ALWAYS charge the watch when the
| kids get home.
|
| I also suggest that they lock-down the settings of the kids'
| watch (the customisation/locking-down is very good) just add a
| few contacts (papa, mama, sis/bro) and that's it. Nobody else can
| call them, and they cannot call anyone else (except emergency
| services).
|
| ps: I personally run on Android. I absolutely despise and I
| dropped every Apple-thing I had on the battery-gate scandal)
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Have you had experience with that yourself? We have apple
| watches with mobile service and reliability has been quite
| poor. Location is usually severely delayed, or it looks like
| our kid is going for a swim (we live near water).
|
| It sounded like a great plan, but I'd definitely not recommend
| it (yet).
| iamawacko wrote:
| The daughter was vaping. I'm not entirely clear, how did taking
| away a phone stop that?
|
| And I know a large number of teens that are honor role, on sports
| teams, and gesticulate, all while having a phone and actively use
| social media.
|
| I also know teens with depression, insomnia, and poor grades,
| even though they don't have a phone or social media.
|
| That's not to say phones aren't harmful, but clearly it's not
| everything.
| iamawacko wrote:
| And I say this as a person who's phone says "Today: 0 minutes"
| and "Daily average screen time: 20 m" (almost all 2FA and maps)
| Tade0 wrote:
| Harmful effects of social media notwithstanding, it's not just
| about the phones.
|
| Reaching for your phone is an example of what psychologists refer
| to as avoidance behaviours. We look at screens so that we don't
| have to deal with difficult thoughts and emotions.
|
| Sure, without a phone that person had no other choice but to face
| whatever they've been avoiding. But more often than not leaving
| someone to their own devices when they clearly can't cope with
| the situation by themselves makes them look for a different
| source of distraction that in turn will make you wish they were
| "just" addicted to social media.
|
| A person doing well mentally has no need to avoid anything. The
| right thing to do is help them get there, not play whack-a-mole
| with their coping mechanisms.
| coolbreezetft24 wrote:
| This is me with my dog. Whenever I'm stressed out from life I
| can always escape to my bichon
| turboat wrote:
| Do you have any suggestions on how to help people achieve and
| maintain good mental health?
|
| It's true that addiction is ultimately a psychological problem.
| It's true that people engage in addictive behaviors as a coping
| mechanism to avoid difficult emotions.
|
| It's also true that the Internet has enabled a lot of
| deliberately addictive content. Phones keep that content
| constantly at hand. And it's difficult to avoid having a phone
| since they also provide utilities.
|
| I'd like to live in a world where everyone had such great
| mental wellness that they were impervious to the temptations of
| their phones. What are some serious tactics to make that
| happen?
| hunter-gatherer wrote:
| I'm always curious to understand how so many people didn't know
| phones and social media would be bad. I remember having
| "prohoetic" discussions about all this in 2008 with a bunch of
| privates in the Army. How people ever thought how the internet
| was evolving in the early 2000s was going to be only amazing has
| always baffled me.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| So I was one of the first generation to have access to instant
| messaging when I was less than 11. (I'm pushing 40)
|
| I am despite what the media says, a digital native.
|
| that being said, I don't think kids should be on social media. By
| that I mean instagram/tiktok/snapchat
|
| I have been talking to my kids (10/7) about "the internet". The
| normal stuff: no real names, no photos, no giving away details to
| anyone. They have a shared iPad, but it has time limits, and it
| stays in the living room.
|
| and as an adult leader for a "uniformed organisation" for kids,
| one of the badges is about staying safe online. Some of the shit
| that I hear from them leaves me a bit worried. Roblox is a
| fucking nest of paedophiles. Instgram isn't a place for kids, and
| neither is youtube.
|
| But, the biggest issue, apart from google and facebook not having
| any commercial incentive to stop kids from using their stuff: is
| parents not talking to their kids to find out whats happening.
|
| Who are they talking to?
|
| How long are they spending online?
|
| What are they watching?
|
| You as a parent have to be involved. You can't let your kid
| wander alone on the internet. You need to set barriers.
|
| You don't need to be a helicopter, but you do need to take an
| interest.
|
| You also need to have a strong fucking password to stop the kids
| getting round the parental controls.
| averageRoyalty wrote:
| > The normal stuff: no real names, no photos, no giving away
| details to anyone.
|
| For the record, none of this has been "normal" for 15+ years.
| Sharing personal details - either publicly on social media or
| "privately" online is absolutely normal now.
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