[HN Gopher] Decade of the Battery
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Decade of the Battery
Author : paulpauper
Score : 38 points
Date : 2024-06-11 19:19 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.noahpinion.blog)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.noahpinion.blog)
| spankalee wrote:
| I live in a city where's it's pretty common for people to blast
| music at what used to be absurd levels because of very large, yet
| portable, battery powered speakers.
|
| You used to need a decent budget for D batteries if you were
| going to do this with an 80's boom box, but now you can run a
| full-sized PA speaker for hours on the built-in Li-ion batteries,
| so it's way more common.
| bravoetch wrote:
| Imagine how loud it will be with a Dyson Sphere connected to
| the Disaster Area portable speaker.
| immibis wrote:
| I met someone who claimed to have invented the digital
| amplifier chips these speakers use, using some new technology I
| don't remember but it sounded innovative at the time - possibly
| a new semiconductor material. He said he's very sorry.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier#History
|
| > Practical class-D amplifiers were enabled by the
| development of silicon-based MOSFET (metal-oxide-
| semiconductor field-effect transistor) technology.
|
| > The first class-D amplifier based integrated circuit was
| released by Tripath in 1996, and it saw widespread use.
|
| say thanks :) i started going down the analog electronics
| route starting with audio amplifier projects
| cma wrote:
| Rechargeable NiMH D-cell batteries have been around for decades
| for not too much, probably not more than the boom box for
| several sets 25+ years ago.
| GaggiX wrote:
| I'm so glad LFP batteries exist, at least at home you don't have
| to worry about a massive fire like you do with other lithium ion
| batteries.
| Animats wrote:
| Within a decade battery technologies capable of thermal runaway
| should disappear.
| mdeeks wrote:
| Can anyone break down why it is still so expensive to get battery
| storage at my house?
|
| A single Tesla Powerwall is something like $10000 (before
| incentives) for 13 kWh capacity. I regularly see articles about
| battery costs being ~$150/kWh now. Thats about $2000 and yet the
| Powerwall is 5x that cost. Even if it was $200/kWh that doesn't
| get close to adding up.
|
| Is it all installation costs? extra hardware costs? Or something
| related to trade where we just can't get cheap batteries here in
| the US?
| GaggiX wrote:
| Isn't the Tesla Powerwall a fully integrated system with
| multiple MPPTs, inverter, and charger? (Maybe I'm confusing the
| new one with the older versions) I imagine that's where the
| cost comes in.
|
| Where I live in Europe I can buy a lifepo4 cell for 97EUR from
| a trusted supplier, 300Ah x 3.2V = almost a kWh. For a full
| battery you need to add the cost of a BMS and a balancer.
| MrsPeaches wrote:
| Electronics in these systems are a low % of the BoM cost
| though, so wouldn't expect it to make such a big difference.
| GaggiX wrote:
| If you buy a 16 cells to make a 48V battery than yeah the
| vast majority of the cost would be the lithium cells, a 16s
| 250A BMS should be around 150EUR, an active 16s balancer
| 50EUR.
| NullPrefix wrote:
| There are European suppliers selling LiFePO4 cells for
| EUR100/kWh, but you need electronics to support the cells -
| battery management system, charger controller, inverter and so
| on. You are also paying for the brand name
| taeric wrote:
| This is almost certainly a standard supply/demand curve
| problem. Especially when you factor in that the supply side is
| in rather heavy flux and that the optimization side of supply
| has not caught up to the advancement side of it.
| MrsPeaches wrote:
| Maybe regulatory overhead due to the legacy of Li-ion cells
| i.e. their explosive failure mode?
|
| My understanding is that LFP is a fair bit safer so maybe
| regulators haven't caught up?
| immibis wrote:
| Why would you expect a Tesla product to have a competitive
| price? This is like saying: the CPU costs $100, the RAM costs
| $50, the flash costs $20, so why does an iPhone 15 cost $900?
| mdeeks wrote:
| Other competing companies in this space charge similar rates
| for home batteries.
|
| Also, the Tesla Model 3 and Y are currently some of the most
| affordable EVs on the market. It's only the X, S, and
| Cybertruck that are the high priced ones.
| Xt-6 wrote:
| You can find much cheaper batteries. But they will require
| additional components that are included in the Powerwall, will
| be less integrated, less pretty to look at, the mobile apps not
| as pretty, more complex to purchase, etc
|
| Example 30kw for $8k. https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-ll-s-
| lithium-batteries-kit-30... or
| https://batteryhookup.com/products/new-24-56kwh-lifepo4-batt...
| cyberax wrote:
| Mark-up for luxury goods.
|
| Tesla sells megapacks, and it's much more realistic:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack#Specifications , a
| 4MWh battery is $1.4m.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| As someone who has been blissfully oblivious to electricity
| prices due to a 36 month contract at $0.10/kWh, I looked up the
| recent rates and saw that they're now in the $0.15/kWh range.
| Makes me a bit more receptive to biting the bullet and just going
| with solar with battery if this trend is going to continue in
| that fashion.
| stavros wrote:
| As someone in a corrupt country with tons of sun, I can't wait
| to be independent of the price-gouging grid.
| Animats wrote:
| It's just getting started. Solid state batteries are getting
| close. There are big companies, from Toyota on down, putting
| together manufacturing facilities. Nio is already shipping an
| early semi-solid-state battery.
|
| The solid state battery era looks like this:
|
| - Much better safety. No thermal runaway problem. Survives nail
| test.
|
| - Upwards of 5,000 charge cycles.
|
| - Charge times around 5 minutes.
|
| - Maybe better energy density.
|
| - Cost not yet well understood. Manufacturing is hard.
|
| For small devices, the battery should outlive the device.
|
| For cars, the usage model looks more like gas cars. Drive 300-400
| miles, recharge in 5-10 minutes. This has land-use implications.
| Gas stations can convert to charging stations in the same
| footprint and layout. No need for giant parking lots of chargers.
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