[HN Gopher] Some people with insomnia think they're awake when t...
___________________________________________________________________
Some people with insomnia think they're awake when they're asleep
Author : sabrina_ramonov
Score : 201 points
Date : 2024-06-11 14:32 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.scientificamerican.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.scientificamerican.com)
| cut3 wrote:
| The article is blocked unless I pay so I can't read it.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| https://archive.is/cs1fW
| Luc wrote:
| Prepend the URL with archive.is/
|
| Curiously, it's free for me in France, even in an private
| window.
| sabrina_ramonov wrote:
| my bad, I was able to access it for free without paying so
| didn't realize
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| Great, just great. I went relatively low-tech and outfitted the
| mattress I sleep on with an Angel Care sensor pad, connected to
| some custom homemade datalogging stuff. This is to convince me
| that what felt like a restless night actually did have
| significant sleep spells. So I'm just imagining feeling tired and
| having been awake most of the night, right? Have some coffee and
| get on with things. And now they're saying that sleep was, in
| fact, no good?
|
| "Significant sleep spells" - sometimes the data, sampled in
| 1-minute binning intervals, is a flat line - no difference,
| minute-to-minute, in motion (however significantly above baseline
| of an unoccupied mattress - I guess that's what the angel care
| sensors monitor - just the motion energy of breathing. Other
| times the data is really, really noisy. Is that different sleep
| or just different body position? Never figured it out. But
| "awake" is clearly visible - that's noise that never goes down to
| the "just breathing" baseline at all.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| If its based on heart rate and breath rate you could probably
| do that sonically or ultrasonically. If it's using ultrasound,
| it's probable that it's just because of your sleeping position.
| The maternal/infant monitors that the hospital my wife gave
| birth in used were very sensitive to positioning to the degree
| that they would stop measuring my son's heartbeat whenever she
| changed positions whereupon the nurse would come in and
| reposition the sensor.
| l33tman wrote:
| "The researchers exposed people to a distressing emotional
| experience for three days in a row: they had to listen to a
| recording of themselves singing--often out of tune--to karaoke,
| which aroused shame." Heh.. The researchers have been pretty
| creative :)
|
| But yeah, I've experienced the same thing, you think you haven't
| slept a second during the night but you probably have
| kunalgupta wrote:
| yeah i have this. didnt officially verify but i noticed that
| theres a direct correlation between hours i am in bed and how
| rested i feel, even if i feel like i spent the time awake. So i
| stopped specifically worrying about whether i'm asleep or awake
| and instead focus on enjoying the break
| xkcd-sucks wrote:
| In consideration of the placebo effect and sleep architecture,
| I have started trying to think of deep half-awake time as
| "stage zero sleep"
| EPWN3D wrote:
| I've definitely experienced this. It used to happen weekly. My
| wife would often "wake me up" and say I was snoring, but to me, I
| was still lying awake trying to fall asleep. It was incredibly
| confusing, but I just trusted that she wasn't making things up.
|
| I've begun taking a small amount of CBD in the form of an edible
| a few hours before going to bed (a quarter of a 5 mg gummy), and
| I have minimal sleep issues now.
| xcskier56 wrote:
| I have this EXACT same experience with my GF but on the other
| side of things. She'll be snoring so I'll poke her and she'll
| say she was awake... but was definitely snoring asleep
| wil421 wrote:
| Don't try to prove she's snoring by showing her evidence of
| the snoring. Let me make that mistake for you.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Don't try to prove she's snoring by showing her evidence
| of the snoring.
|
| For my spouse I highlighted the cracked windows and the
| house shifted on it's foundation. I tried using circles
| under everyone's eyes but she insisted those were from food
| allergies.
| doubled112 wrote:
| This is all circumstantial at best!
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >I've begun taking a small amount of CBD in the form of an
| edible a few hours before going to bed (a quarter of a 5 mg
| gummy), and I have minimal sleep issues now.
|
| A 1.25mg dose of CBD is essentially homeopathic levels. Either
| you're confused on the dosage or experiencing a placebo effect.
| wafflemaker wrote:
| Active doses vary wildly between people. And spectrum folks
| (which 30% of hners are) tend to need less of most drugs.
| newzisforsukas wrote:
| > (which 30% of hners are)
|
| Where is this number from?
| philwelch wrote:
| Behind the pelvis
| wil421 wrote:
| >need less of most drugs.
|
| This one too.
| wafflemaker wrote:
| Sorry, got that from one of Thomas D. Brown's books on
| ADHD. Thought it's a common knowledge, but I struggle to
| find anything on it on the internet. Source should be in
| the book tho. Drop me a message at ntgiem2q0rc@opayq.com
| and I'll reply when\if I find it. Can't ATM.
| philwelch wrote:
| Thomas D. Brown did a study on HN users and published his
| findings in a book?
| monadINtop wrote:
| it was revealed in a vision
| itishappy wrote:
| Edit: This was a garbage-tier comment. Leaving it up with
| edits because I think the links are interesting.
|
| 1/4 "serving size" (if you will) isn't homeopathic, ~~and
| aligns pretty closely with the recommended dose of the only
| FDA approved CBD medication~~ (see edit below):
|
| > Increase in weekly increments of 5 mg/kg/day (2.5 mg/kg
| twice daily).
|
| Edit: _I 'm dumb and mixing mg and mg/kg._ This would be
| 400mg/day for an average adult. Still not homeopathic.
|
| https://www.epidiolexhcp.com/dosing/dosing-and-
| administratio...
|
| Though the ~~recommended dose~~ (again, see edit below) for
| various activities does vary wildly:
|
| > post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD): 1.5 mg
|
| > difficulty sleeping: 300 mg
|
| Edit: Turns out that's just the dosage that was administered
| during one of the studies, not necessarily the recommended
| treatment dosage.
|
| > Despite these early findings and data from two case reports
| in which CBD improved sleep quality in a single pediatric
| patient with PTSD and four patients with Parkinson's disease,
| we identified only one randomized, double-blind, placebo-
| controlled, study with sleep as the primary outcome measure.
| In this trial, 27 healthy volunteers received either oral CBD
| (300 mg dissolved in corn oil) or placebo. CBD did not alter
| any sleep measures (e.g., self-rated sleep quality or
| polysomnography examinations) relative to placebo.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7880228/
|
| We really need better studies of this stuff...
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Are you mixing mg/kg with straight mg? You know the average
| patient weighs substantially more than 1kg, right?
| itishappy wrote:
| Yes. Damnit. Edited.
| ryaneager wrote:
| No, it doesn't. That says 5 mg per kilogram of bodyweight
| per day. He's having 1.25 mg total per day.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > A 1.25mg dose of CBD is essentially homeopathic levels.
|
| Homeopathic levels are a vanishingly small chance of their
| being a single molecule of the notional ingredient in a dose.
| 1.25mg is not even remotely "essentially homeopathic".
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| If you felt anything from so little I'd certainly call it
| placebo
| swatcoder wrote:
| > experiencing a placebo effect
|
| And if that effect were satisfactory, as it sounds, why would
| that matter?
|
| Would you even know if it was a psychogenic remedy to what
| was probably a psychogenic malady in the first place, rather
| than a peculiar, individual sensitivity that just hasn't been
| identified in the sparse research on CBD? (You would not)
| digging wrote:
| This happens to both me and my partner, more often with me
| though. I've literally been (from my perspective) lying there
| awake when they say "you're snoring" and been able to
| immediately respond "no I'm not" - which obviously makes no
| sense.
|
| I don't think either of us have insomnia. Both of us do have
| other mostly-managed health issues that occasionally cause us
| to stay up with racing thoughts, but the two phenomena aren't
| really associated with each other. (Also, I think it happens to
| my partner more because they use unfiltered screens late at
| night. If I accidentally use a device without blue light
| filtering it's much more likely for me to be unable to fall
| asleep. So not "real" insomnia.)
| werheisng wrote:
| have you gotten checked for sleep apnea? Your situation sounds
| similar to mine (except I never tried CBD). Getting treated for
| sleep apnea was a game changer for me
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Getting treated for sleep apnea was a game changer for me
|
| I'd like to but that much money doesn't live in my pocket.
| It's on the list of stuff I hope for >62.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Hey man, obviously easy for me to say but really worth
| trying to at least figure out some way to check for this
| and get treated. It will literally kill you. Good luck
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| A major hurdle is the devices are typically DRM locked to
| manufacturers and a Rx is required before any programming
| can happen.
| averageRoyalty wrote:
| Not sure where in the world you are, but any country with
| public healthcare (most of the first world) you can do a
| sleep study free or low copayment. A basic CPAP you can
| usually rent, and you can switch off call home functions
| on all the ones I've seen.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| For hiking, you can buy a pulse oximeter for $200. Some of
| them can record up to 24 hours and then later you can
| review your "hike" on the PC to see if your blood oxygen
| ever went down significantly.
| newzisforsukas wrote:
| Is there melatonin in the CBD gummy? That sounds like a very
| low dose. It is common for cannabinoids to be marketed for
| sleep with melatonin in them.
| BossingAround wrote:
| Melatonin won't improve the quality of your sleep. It might
| induce sleep if your body doesn't naturally produce
| melatonin, e.g. due to going to bed at very different times
| throughout prolonged periods. But, outside of that, melatonin
| isn't very useful as a sleep quality enhancer.
|
| Similar to CBD, IIRC, one would have to take very large
| amounts of CBD to produce any statistically significant
| effect on one's sleep, and CBD gummies are not the most
| bioavailable CBD there is.
|
| My guess is it's placebo rather than anything else.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Or there's a spectrum of reactions to CBD as with
| everything and this guy just got lucky.
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| The snoring thing has definitely happened to me, though I
| wouldn't say I have insomnia (I can find it difficult to get to
| sleep but that's probably just too much coffee and screen
| time). It's so weird because I can't hear the snoring at all.
| samatman wrote:
| In terms of cheap things to try, I'd like to recommend trying a
| nasal stent. I don't snore because I side sleep, but do if I'm
| on my back, and I suspected some minor apnea was taking place
| regardless of position. The stent has noticeably improved my
| sleep quality.
|
| If it doesn't help, you're out twenty bucks, if it does it
| could literally add years to your life.
| throwanem wrote:
| Can you recommend an example product? Everything I find in a
| search for "nasal stent" appears to require surgical
| placement.
| thephyber wrote:
| I bought something similar that was marketed like this:
|
| > "Rhinomed Mute" Snore Stopper Nasal Dilator for Snore
| Reduction
| samatman wrote:
| This happens to be the exact one I tried. I'll probably
| try others in case there's one which happens to work
| better or be more comfortable (irritation of the nostrils
| at first was a real factor, took about a week to adjust),
| but with a hydrogen peroxide bath every few days they can
| last an arbitrarily long amount of time, so I haven't
| felt the need.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| I've had good results with a nasal strip (like BreatheRight)
| plus an anti-snoring appliance (like zQuiet). I had a
| dentist-provided appliance that cost me $1000 out of pocket
| and broke in less than a year (when I had moved out of
| state); the zQuiet + nasal strip helps just as much and is an
| order of magnitude cheaper.
| lazyeye wrote:
| Also worth getting a good quality air purifier for your
| bedroom. This definitely improved my breathing and sleep.
| op00to wrote:
| This literally happened to me the other night. I was sitting in
| my lay-z-boy and my wife was resting in the bed nearby. I
| realized about an hour later that I had been asleep. I was 100%
| sure I was awake and watching the show, and vividly remember
| watching the show, but nope, I was asleep. Weeeeeird.
| pillefitz wrote:
| Do you remember any of the show's content?
| op00to wrote:
| Only about 20%. We rewatched it the following night. I
| could have sworn I was awake, but obviously not!
| gwbas1c wrote:
| > My wife would often "wake me up" and say I was snoring, but
| to me, I was still lying awake trying to fall asleep.
|
| Have you ever been evaluated for sleep apnea? That's how it
| used to feel to me: I would feel like it took me 45-minutes to
| an hour to fall asleep.
|
| Once I started using a CPAP, I fell asleep almost instantly.
| j0hnyl wrote:
| I'm very skeptical that 1.25mg of CBD alone could have any
| impact on sleep outside of placebo.
| RamRodification wrote:
| Don't ruin their placebo by telling them!
| reverius42 wrote:
| One of the cool things about placebo effect is that it can
| work even if you know it's a placebo!
| flippyhead wrote:
| I'm not; this also works for me better than anything else
| I've tried.
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| At least for me and for some others I have met, we have an
| immense sensitivity to cannabinoids. I will actually get a
| decent buzz from CBD gummies that most people feel absolutely
| nothing from, even if they eat the whole bag. I cannot smoke
| any THC flower because it's all way to strong, and the only
| way I can consume THC is cutting up gummies into small
| pieces.
| gmiller123456 wrote:
| I actually often have dreams that I'm lying awake in bed.
| Sometimes I wake up and am in a different position, which is the
| only way I know it was a dream. I imagine there's a lot of times
| I think I really was lying awake when I was really sleeping.
| VyseofArcadia wrote:
| Anecdata: I have observed that my migraines come in cycles with
| the subjective experience of not having slept. I know I've slept,
| because I have long stretches of unconsciousness as confirmed by
| the clock on my nightstand. But I don't _feel_ like I 've slept.
| Then I'll have a migraine and a few nights of really great
| (subjectively) sleep before the cycle starts over again.
|
| It's like there's something building up in my brain that's
| blocking real REM sleep, and cleaning it out results in the
| subjective experience of a migraine.
| greentxt wrote:
| If they are able to think, that means they are conscious no? My
| favorite type of sleep is the sort that precludes conscious
| mental activity, since I tend to think of work or other mentally
| fatiguing subject matter and physical sensations like pain and
| tension. I'd like my sleep to exclude that sort of suffering.
| Maybe there should be more than one word for sleep. We could
| distinguish certain aspects, maybe name them or something? Course
| I'm probably asleep right now and dreaming I typed this.
| appletrotter wrote:
| Have you ever heard of lucid dreams?
| lxgr wrote:
| Dream states are definitely not equivalent to normal/awake
| consciousness. Try doing math in a dream!
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I have done math in a dream before.
| lxgr wrote:
| Was it any good, though?
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Basic arithmetic seems to work fine. Antiderivatives,
| much less so. OTOH doing aintiderivatives while awake
| doesn't work that great for me either.
|
| [edit]
|
| Though I should clarify that in my dreams I usually
| finish the antiderivative (wrongly) when awake I usually
| just fail to finish the antiderivative.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I have been programming in my dreams, but I woke up and had
| to retype it all!
| SamPatt wrote:
| When dreaming, if I try to do math or anything difficult,
| my mind does a nifty trick where it just skips all the hard
| steps and gives me a result.
|
| I must usually accept these results, but occasionally, I
| don't, and that's often when I realize I'm dreaming - I
| literally cannot conjure up those steps at all, they simply
| don't exist.
| npongratz wrote:
| I proved a topology theorem in a dream once.
|
| Before I went to sleep, my inability to prove it had been
| bugging me all day long, and I suspected it'd be featured
| on the next morning's (way too early) final exam for my
| university course. I solved it in my dream, woke up, wrote
| on my whiteboard what I remembered and sure enough, it was
| correct. I worked it a few more times to cram it into my
| memory before running to my exam.
|
| To my great delight, the ability to prove that theorem was
| featured heavily in one of the exam's questions, and helped
| me do quite well on the exam overall.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I have definitely experienced this sometimes. Usually it's when
| I've had too much to drink. Very restless sleep and sometimes
| I'll tell my wife how I was awake all night counting the hours
| and she'll tell me I was sleeping haha
| seiferteric wrote:
| Every now and then I will have a night where my brain feels
| "wired" and I can't sleep and just have thoughts racing through
| my head. It feels like a don't sleep or barely sleep and yet
| hours go by pretty fast so I assume I must be sleeping more than
| I think, but it is a different kind of sleep for sure.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| I get this too. My mind is racing and I feel like I can't fall
| asleep but then when I eventually get up to check the time,
| multiple hours have passed
| msarrel wrote:
| This makes sense to me because for years I have felt like I'm
| laying in bed awake yet I also feel like I got some sleep. I
| described this as " I didn't sleep at all last night, but maybe I
| did because I feel slightly rested even though I was awake."
| Knowing my background, hyper vigilance and PTSD are probably at
| play.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Mind awake and body asleep is nothing new.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
| prophesi wrote:
| Sleep paralysis is a frightening experience, and the one
| suffering from it is both aware, and correct in their
| awareness, that they're awake. Article is describing something
| very different.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| It isn't always frightening. It only get scary when you try
| to move and cannot. Many people suffer "paralysis" that ends
| as soon as they try to move. Such people are awake but their
| body is in sleep mode, often snoring. I've experienced it
| myself when lying in bed wondering who is snoring beside me,
| only to discover I am alone in bed listening to myself snore.
| skeaker wrote:
| Right, but the article describes a scenario where you
| aren't actually awake.
| kagakuninja wrote:
| Previous guy misstated things. Sleep paralysis is a form
| of lucid dreaming. You are _aware_ while asleep.
|
| From my experience meditating, one can go through stages
| of body paralysis, and then enter lucid dreaming states,
| while maintaining awareness.
|
| Some advanced meditators claim to be able to be aware at
| all times, even in deep dreamless sleep.
| namanyayg wrote:
| Interesting to see this article and the comments here on how
| everyone's experience varies.
|
| This happens to me when I go to bed while thinking hard on a
| specific problem, usually related to my startup.
|
| It starts off awake with regular thinking, but then at some point
| it becomes surreal and events that have no cause and effect or
| basis in reality start occuring.
|
| When I feel an "aha" moment where I become of the surreal nature
| of my recent thoughts, my memories cease and I assume I
| transition to real sleep.
|
| In some cases, I wake up and when I check the time my 30 minutes
| of "thinking" actually occured over ~3 hours.
|
| I find it fun, and as part of my self sleep experiments I try to
| even recreate it.
| huevosabio wrote:
| This happens to me fairly often, and find it amusing as well.
|
| Its become my way of detecting that I'm falling asleep: "oh,
| that is such a weird, ridiculous thought, I must be falling
| asleep".
| hadlock wrote:
| This is at least a once a month occurrence, usually weekly+
| when I'm working on a big new project. I'll feel like I spent
| the whole night thinking about how to fix X and only got 3
| hours of sleep, but in reality I got more than 6
| elzbardico wrote:
| Don't know if this is related, but I really enjoy the dreams when
| I go back to sleep after my wife wakes up. They are really vivid
| and imaginative, but at the same I am mostly aware I am dreaming,
| as if I was partially awake.
|
| Of course, this is me, I am a thoroughly weird person. I
| understand that some other people may find it unsettling.
| WalterSear wrote:
| This was the standard practice for inducing lucid dreaming in
| the class I took on it at Stanford.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Yeah, I've done some dream yoga [1] practice and this is a
| common instruction in those texts for inducing lucid dreaming
| as well.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_yoga
| sandoze wrote:
| I experienced this chronically. It was so pervasive that I would
| convince myself the next day that I was exhausted with only six
| hours of sleep. I started tracking my sleep with an Apple Watch
| and soon realized that, I may wake up, it's usually for minutes
| and not nearly as often as I thought!
| lxgr wrote:
| I've experienced this a couple of times: Feeling like I've been
| lying awake for at least half of the night, twisting and turning,
| when my sleep tracker really only shows movement for maybe 2-3
| stretches of 5 minutes each.
|
| That realization has helped me stress out a lot less about "not
| getting enough sleep" when there's an important even the next day
| (which makes it easier to find sleep in turn).
| josefresco wrote:
| FWIW I had some insomnia a while back and thought "maybe if I
| just lay here long enough" and so I did that for hours and my
| smartwatch thought I was asleep. I'm 99% sure I was not
| sleeping. Maybe my smartwatch sucks, but I don't think most can
| handle "laying down and not moving but not sleeping".
| withinboredom wrote:
| I'd recommend getting a super cheap camera that can record
| yourself sleeping. You might have actually been asleep
| (according to this article).
| drdeca wrote:
| Not all that infrequently (though not in the last week iirc)
| I find myself in a state which I think of as being, "half
| asleep" (or (3/4) asleep, or whatever. Various degrees of
| "asleep") and I'm still able to kind-of think about things,
| but such that it is easier to accidentally forget what I was
| thinking about, such that I'm not able to keep as much in
| working memory, more distract-able by random thoughts, etc. .
| (On rare occasion I find my breathing while in this state to
| be concerning to I get scared and wake myself up. I'm pretty
| sure it's been over a year since that last happened. I think
| it was mostly when sleeping face down or something?)
|
| I suspect the type of state I just described (not the
| breathing part) is something most people sometimes
| experience. I don't think it is unusual. Though I don't think
| I've often heard people describe it in detail.
|
| Does it seem plausible to you that you were perhaps, "20%
| asleep, but 80% awake" during that time?
|
| Edit: also, my understanding is that lying still and resting
| _can_ work as a partial imperfect substitute for some amount
| of sleep (though not like, in a way that can be sufficient
| long-term)
| riwsky wrote:
| You appear to be describing
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
| grugagag wrote:
| I had the same experince in the past thinking I didn't sleep at
| all while having some sleep amongs the twists and turns but of
| low quality, shallow and REMless sleep which I found
| unsatisfying. Luckily I get that much less these days though I
| do sleep in chunks of a couple of hours and do wake up in
| between. It's really a bad habit and probably having to do with
| sleep apneea.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I sleep pretty well in general, but when I do sleep poorly I also
| experience the same thing. I am so convinced that a dream is
| reality that I wake up confused and have to take a minute to
| orient myself mentally.
|
| But this rarely happens because sleep is very important to me and
| I worked hard on my habits to get good sleep. Good sleep for me
| equals no memory of dreams.
| boogieknite wrote:
| I have the opposite where my entire life my parents or partners
| would say they came to wake me up, i sit up, looked at them and
| clearly say "ok im getting up" and then the return 10 minutes
| later and im still asleep. When i actually wake up i have no
| memory of anything.
|
| Used to be a big problem when my dad would wake me up at 4am to
| hunt as a kid. Sometimes people tell me we had conversations and
| i was making eye contact. I have no option but to believe it bc
| ive heard it so many times now
| jwalton wrote:
| In my late teens I would frequently be late for university
| because I'd turn off my alarm or my gf would come wake me up
| and I'd go straight back to sleep. One day I decided to move my
| alarm clock to the other side of the room so I'd have to
| physically get up to turn it off. The next morning I got up,
| walked over to the alarm clock and turned it off, then I was
| startled awake as I started to fall over standing in front of
| the alarm clock.
|
| I'd like to be able to blame this on some kind of medical
| problem, but I think mostly I just stayed up late playing
| Counterstrike too much. :P
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| In the apartment I live in, I don't have a distance large
| enough I could put my alarm clock that I wouldn't be able to
| cross to turn off the alarm, then cross it again to get back
| to bed, and not even remember it later. Adding a lock or some
| puzzles to solve only results in me either solving them and
| not remembering, or continuing to sleep while the alarm wakes
| up half the apartment building. Fun fact: turns out I'm
| really good at mentally adding and multiplying 2 and 3-digit
| numbers while unconscious.
| noman-land wrote:
| Hang the alarm clock from the ceiling :).
| brookst wrote:
| Even better, ceiling fan.
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| It works: https://clocky.com/
| Modified3019 wrote:
| >Clocky leaps from your nightstand, and runs away beeping
|
| This is a hilarious mental image
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| It is hilarious, and infuriating at the same time.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Yeah, I remember seeing that one; I thought of buying it,
| but I'm sure it'll just trigger my "screw it, I'll stay
| asleep while half of the neighborhood secretly hates me
| for the morning noise" adaptation. I don't think I ever
| experienced a noise I couldn't sleep through.
| gknoy wrote:
| Have you considered trying an alarm clock that will run
| away from you? [0] I've never used it but I also have a
| tendency to sleep through _the most annoying alarms_ so I
| would consider it if I couldn't put my alarm out of easy
| reach.
|
| 0: https://clocky.com/
|
| edit: rrr_oh_man beat me to it, that's what I get for re-
| watching their video :D
| ryandrake wrote:
| I know this sounds kind of smug, but you could also
| "simply" try going to sleep earlier such that you are not
| as dependent on an alarm clock. I've found that when I am
| still in deep sleep in the morning, my body has many ways
| to avoid/ignore alarms, but if I get enough sleep such
| that I'm already mostly awake by the time the alarm
| sounds, I don't ignore it.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I won't say it's impossible for me, but there's a huge,
| tangled mess of psychological, social, habitual and
| lifestyle reasons that prevent it. Starting with, ever
| since I finished high school and was no longer forced by
| my parents to get up on time, my natural awake time is
| between ~11:00 and 04:00. Any attempts to shift it to
| what society considers normal tend to drift back to
| baseline within a week. These days, Bao Fu Xing Ao Ye
| (revenge bedtime procrastination) is a significant
| factor, too.
|
| (It's 00:15 here as I'm submitting this comment; I'm
| fully wake and alert, as opposed to how I was 3-4 hours
| ago.)
| foobarian wrote:
| After my last move I ended up in a bedroom with
| excruciating amounts of windows letting in so much daylight
| you'd probably get a sunburn if you didn't get up. I "fixed
| the glitch" but I was thinking that it would make a great
| alarm to set up a lot of overhead lighting (such great LED
| fixtures these days) and ramp them up slowly to full power
| over say a half hour. And leave no way to shut off :-)
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I might do this one day. I'm upping the amount and power
| of the LEDs in our house slowly, though I feel my wife
| still isn't convinced that I really mean it when I say
| that I. need MORE LIGHT to function.
|
| (And none of the "warm light" crap, that just makes me
| sleepy even if I'm awake. Neutral or cold only. I'd go
| for high-CRI ones if I could find them in LED strip
| format.)
| gavmor wrote:
| I've had some luck with an alarm clock that must be flipped
| over to be silenced. Every night, I set a cup of water on
| top of it, and every morning after I've silenced it, I'm
| left holding a cup of water--with which I can't return to
| bed!
|
| I'll then drink the water, because it's easy, and if that's
| not enough to get me on track, at least I'll have to pee
| sooner.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Do you have a model/brand for such an alarm clock?
| alexdbird wrote:
| We have ones made by Lexon. A non-radio-controlled
| version of this: https://lexon-
| design.com/en/product/flip-plus/
|
| It's a nice concept, though the execution isn't perfect.
| The biggest flaw, which may have been fixed since, is
| that the power supply decoupling isn't good enough, such
| that when the batteries get low and the alarm tries to
| make a noise, the clock detects it as a touch, which
| instantly snoozes the alarm. We haven't had it since the
| original batteries though, which were ironically the ones
| Lexon supplied.
|
| N.B. These are only just big enough to put a glass of
| water on top, and it might not play well with the touch
| sensitivity.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Harness this power for good, put "P =? NP" on your alarm
| clock.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > Fun fact: turns out I'm really good at mentally adding
| and multiplying 2 and 3-digit numbers while unconscious.
|
| You'll be fully conscious - you just don't retain the
| memory. Its like driving on a route you've driven thousands
| of times or tying your shoe laces - both activities require
| conscious effort at the time, but no (detailed) memory is
| retained about the effort afterwards.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I have picked up my toddler who fell off the bed twice in the
| same night and woke up and had no memory of it, until I was
| reminded by my wife.
| jtbayly wrote:
| I have had kids thump loudly onto the floor falling out of
| bed in another room with the doors closed. Loud enough that
| it woke me up. But _they_ didn't wake up. I check on them,
| and they are sound asleep on the floor.
| entangledqubit wrote:
| I had a similar experience and was left wondering whether I
| could add progressively larger units of work to the alarm
| clock task to get things done while still "asleep". :)
| brewdad wrote:
| Add whatever challenges you are currently working on at
| work or your side-hustle to your alarm. Soon, you will see
| your productivity skyrocket all while getting a few more
| minutes of much needed "sleep".
| boogieknite wrote:
| Same way i solved it as an adult who needs to wake himself up
| for work.
|
| Similar experiences where i wake up on the floor bc i must
| have rolled out of bed over to my phone in my sleep.
| Izkata wrote:
| I also had the turn-off-the-alarm problem, what seems to have
| solved it for me is building "snooze" into my schedule. My
| alarm is always set 10-15 minutes before I actually needed to
| get up, with a 5-minute snooze, and ever since I haven't had
| issues getting up at the intended time.
|
| Best guess is it helps with waking up slowly over 15 minutes
| instead of being jolted awake when the alarm first goes off.
| jsharpe wrote:
| Those are rookie numbers. I have often set my alarm for 40+
| minutes before I "need" to be awake because I know that I
| will snooze the alarm several times before being conscious
| enough to force myself out of bed.
| jcul wrote:
| I remember stuff like this when I was in university.
|
| I remember getting apps that made you solve maths problems
| before the alarm would go off.
|
| Crazy to think.
|
| Now I've got kids and it's the opposite, even if I'm away
| from them I'll wake early. And I never have deep sleep like
| that, I think I've been trained to come to attention quickly
| from night time wake ups.
| lanstin wrote:
| My youngest child is like this. OMG, it was so stressful till
| he graduated high school and I was like I'm never waking you
| again. Wake yourself up or miss class or work, whatever.
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Just to cover all the bases, have your child do a sleep
| study. Especially if they're still on your insurance and it
| covers such things, as it can be somewhat expensive otherwise
| (in the US.)
|
| Sleep disorders really compound other problems, and they'll
| be pretty thankful later in life to have caught any disorders
| early before they've done a lot of damage.
| jvm___ wrote:
| I was doing a community service project and stayed up all night
| the final night. I fell asleep on a couch and woke up without
| the keys to the building in my pocket. Apparently someone had
| found me, I'd gotten up took the keys out of my pocket and
| given them to them and fallen back asleep - I had no
| recollection of doing so.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I used to have conversations while asleep all the time. On one
| occasion I even answered the phone and sleep chatted on there.
|
| I've also had dreams where I've known it was a dream. Eg
| something would happen in the dream I didn't like and I'd say
| "it's my dream, so I'm changing it"
| Karellen wrote:
| > I've also had dreams where I've known it was a dream.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
| ownagefool wrote:
| I've heard this too, though not nearly as often anymore. ( I
| suspect as I've aged, nobody is waking me up before I'd
| normally rise )
| extr wrote:
| I do this too, it happens mostly if I went to bed extremely
| tired or had a drink or two the night before. What works for me
| is an alarm clock app that forces me to do some moderate math
| problems before it turns off. I set it to 5 problems of the
| type "32*5+84".
|
| I can't claim it's 100% successful, I've been known to do the
| math and go back to sleep. But when that happens I always
| remember it, so at that point it's more of a laziness problem
| :D
| tomcam wrote:
| Similar experiences with one of my kids. Quite disconcerting. A
| parent can be forgiven for suspecting a drug involvement even
| in the absence of one.
| empath75 wrote:
| if you are woken up and go right back to sleep it's completely
| normal not to remember it.
| _0ffh wrote:
| That kind of thing happened to me once when my mom came into my
| room to call me to dinner while I has busy programming, and I
| told her I'd be there in five minutes. I went to dinner an hour
| late and asked why nobody had bothered to tell me.
| neonate wrote:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20240611151714/https://www.scien...
|
| https://archive.ph/9yqQY
| drewcon wrote:
| Sample size of 1.
|
| A disc herniation caused me pain all night until it eventually
| destroyed my circadian rhythm. Even after it healed and the pain
| went away I had terrible sleep disruption. Up every 90 minutes,
| couldn't fall asleep until 4 am, waking up at 4 am. The works.
| Going on a few months.
|
| Then I found sleep restriction.
|
| First two weeks were brutal, but then biology takes over. And
| just like that, in a couple weeks, you rebuild you ability to
| fall asleep naturally and you're back to normal.
|
| And in retrospect, this is exactly the approach we took to sleep
| training our young children. I swear by it.
| e12e wrote:
| > Then I found sleep restriction.
|
| Get up when the alarm rings, no naps?
|
| Ed: Ah, I see - mechanism is basically that - but the addition
| of not going to bed "too early" (compared to when you plan to
| get up):
|
| > Some sleep-restriction methods involve shortening a person's
| time in bed to the average amount that they actually sleep per
| night. Other methods delay a person's bedtime." For example, If
| a person objectively sleeps for 5.5 hours, the experts allow
| the person to be in bed only for six hours. A preliminary lab
| study in which participants delayed their regular bedtime by
| two hours showed that such sleep restriction can reduce the
| number of arousals during REM.
| darajava wrote:
| What's sleep restriction?
| lazyeye wrote:
| Its basically forcing you to stay awake on a very specific
| schedule in order to reset your circadian clock.
|
| If you can find a way to watch this doco it goes into the
| topic in detail. (RIP Michael Mosley)
|
| https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-series/australias-
| sleep-r...
| sqeaky wrote:
| From the end of the article:
|
| > For example, If a person objectively sleeps for 5.5 hours, the
| experts allow the person to be in bed only for six hours. A
| preliminary lab study in which participants delayed their regular
| bedtime by two hours showed that such sleep restriction can
| reduce the number of arousals during REM.
|
| I Like how science and medicine are more frequently taking
| account individual differences into account in a measured and
| sensible way. That is as opposed to ignoring it or making
| everything statistics.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| I know for a fact that during some of my insomnia episodes, I
| would fall asleep and dream of struggling to fall asleep. I would
| know it because of false awakenings and sometimes getting the
| dream to be lucid and noticing something wrong with the
| environment.
|
| This kind of sleep never felt restful by any means, though.
| jerf wrote:
| My favorite is when I roll out of bed in the morning absolutely
| convinced I got no sleep. But then I review my night, yup,
| tossed, turned, used the bathroom, tossed, turned, opened the
| window, tossed, turned, rode a unicorn to work in the Thousandth
| Broken Dimension, tossed, turned, fluffed my pillow... _record
| scratching noise_ wait, what was that about the unicorn?
|
| Guess I got some sleep after all.
| vrc wrote:
| I was in the ICU for an extended period of time, and as you can
| imagine, with the pain, discomfort, noise, and constant
| monitoring, I really "wasn't sleeping at all". I remember getting
| frantic and trying to discharge AMA, and the attending came to
| talk to me and listened to my principal complaint of not
| sleeping. He looked me dead in the eyes and said, "I'm a sleep
| doctor who's been watching sleep studies for 30+ years now, and I
| can assure you, outside of a very small number of patients with
| serious, often hereditary sleep issues, everyone sleeps. You may
| not feel like you slept, and can be convinced you were awake, but
| the body forces you to sleep throughout. And sometimes, when you
| think you fell asleep immediately, you actually didn't sleep for
| a while but you stopped forming memories as you were drifting off
| to sleep". It absolutely did nothing for me in that moment, but
| it's given me a lot of peace of mind since around sleep. You
| might still feel like crap, but you won't have anxiety on top of
| it!
| tomcam wrote:
| I am coming around to that idea myself, and I too was given a
| similar come-to-Jesus lecture by a sleep specialist.
|
| This is separate from the fact that ICUs are unforgivably noisy
| and chaotic. We will look at this part of medical history with
| horror. Yes, I do understand that making things appreciably
| better for patients in ICU is a massive and complex
| undertaking. I am not at all blaming the staff and docs.
| groestl wrote:
| I did a 24 hours blood pressure monitoring once. Every 30min it
| would go off. I was worried I'd never fall asleep and blood
| pressure would not show the normal rhythm, and it absolutely
| felt that way, but the reading definitely showed I was asleep
| at night.
| konschubert wrote:
| > outside of a very small number of patients with serious,
| often hereditary sleep issues
|
| He is likely referring to FFI. This is a genetic disorder. You
| cannot "catch" it. Your anxiety won't cause this.
|
| If you are the kind of person who "can't sleep because you
| stress about not sleeping", then you can ignore this, your
| sleep issues are due to anxiety.
|
| And the good news for people who have sleep issues due to
| anxiety: At some point, your body will win and force you to
| sleep.
| cj wrote:
| I've long suspected marijuana has a similar effect, in that it
| "helps" you fall asleep by making it harder to remember the
| process of falling asleep. It's widely known that marijuana
| inhibits short term memory formation. (I could be wildly off
| base)
| lobsterthief wrote:
| Marijuana keeps me up unfortunately, since my brain becomes
| more stimulated and I just want to get up and do things. But
| I've had massive ADHD my entire life so that's not a
| neurotypical response I suppose. I wish I could just smoke
| weed and feel chill and calm or sleepy.
| sureglymop wrote:
| My ADHD meds (stimulants) also keep me up. Can be a real
| struggle sometimes.
| tootie wrote:
| If you read tales of the taking MSLT on /r/narcolepsy, you'll see
| it's a very common phenomenon. Obviously, a sample bias of people
| with heavily disordered sleep, but man it was so confusing. They
| turn off the lights, then turn them on and ask if you think you
| slept and I just had no idea. I took 5 naps in 5 tries but didn't
| know until I saw the results.
| swayvil wrote:
| Have you ever entered a room and forgot why you entered the room?
| I think a similar thing happens in sleep. What happened in dream
| doesn't carry over into waking memory. And maybe vice-versa.
|
| It seems that memory splits when environment splits.
| taeric wrote:
| I actually thought this was well established? Largely, it isn't
| just a complete lack of sleep that is the problem, it is lack of
| functional rest. Usually leading to lack of functional waking
| time, as well?
|
| Specifically, my understanding was that a complete lack of
| sleeping is rather fatal.
| pedalpete wrote:
| This is quite common for me. I am a chronic insomniac, but there
| are also nights when I "feel" I'm awake, but somewhat know that
| I'm not.
|
| It's not quite lucid dreaming, though I think it isn't completely
| different (I've experimented with that a bit, and I work in
| neurotech/sleeptech).
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