[HN Gopher] POV-Ray - The Persistence of Vision Raytracer (2021)
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       POV-Ray - The Persistence of Vision Raytracer (2021)
        
       Author : RafelMri
       Score  : 298 points
       Date   : 2024-06-11 06:36 UTC (16 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.povray.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.povray.org)
        
       | icf80 wrote:
       | this is old as me
       | 
       | play it with a long time ago ~20 years
        
         | falcor84 wrote:
         | Would you mind sharing some detail?
        
           | Aardwolf wrote:
           | While I can't know what the parent-parent post meant, POV Ray
           | is around for over 30 years and was popular in the early
           | 2000's on the internet as well, and is fun to play around
           | with, I remember people posting renderings on forums like
           | gamedev.net etc...
        
             | deepakg wrote:
             | Also reminded me of the internet ray tracing competition
             | https://www.irtc.org/ where many submissions would've been
             | produced using POV Ray.
        
               | schoen wrote:
               | I really appreciate seeing things that are named after
               | the Internet as part of the exuberance of being able to
               | do or share them on a worldwide network. Naming something
               | after the Internet itself is probably most common in the
               | 1990s.
        
               | bobim wrote:
               | Participed once, and ranked low... I could only dream
               | about the skill level of our french master Mr Tran.
        
         | Nekorosu wrote:
         | It's 29 years for me. It's my first 3D rendering software.
        
           | secretsatan wrote:
           | Me too, oof
        
       | CodeCompost wrote:
       | It's been a long time since I have looked at POV ray and my
       | knowledge of it is woefully out of date, but does POV ray
       | currently make use of hardware acceleration or is it still CPU
       | bound?
        
         | defrost wrote:
         | By their FAQ: CPU, FPU, Bus speed, and Memory bound - in
         | decreasing order of relevance.
         | 
         |  _Will POV-Ray render faster if I buy the latest and fastest 3D
         | videocard?_                   3D-cards are not designed for
         | raytracing. They read polygon meshes and then scanline-render
         | them. Scanline rendering has very little, if anything, to do
         | with raytracing. 3D-cards can't calculate typical features of
         | raytracing as reflections etc. The algorithms used in 3D-cards
         | have nothing to do with raytracing.
         | 
         | _Does POV-Ray support 3DNow for faster rendering?_
         | No, and most likely never will.
         | 
         | https://wiki.povray.org/content/Knowledgebase:Miscellaneous
         | POV-Ray 3.7.0 (released 6 November 2013) is the current
         | official version for all platforms.              There are
         | significant internal changes in this version due to the
         | introduction of SMP support.
         | 
         | https://www.povray.org/download/
        
           | jb1991 wrote:
           | > 3D-cards are not designed for raytracing.
           | 
           | That's a rather old statement. Nvidia and Apple GPUs have
           | hardware-accelerated raytracing now. But even without
           | specific raytracing features, lots of renderers use GPU
           | compute for some of the raytracing workflow.
        
             | defrost wrote:
             | It dates back to 2013.
             | 
             | I've merely quoted what the POX-Ray site has to say about
             | it's own capabilities and beliefs at the time of writing.
        
               | TapamN wrote:
               | It's older than that. I remember that from ~2002, when I
               | used POV-Ray for a class project.
        
               | dagw wrote:
               | POV-Ray itself dates back to the early 90s (and was based
               | on code from the 80s). The FAQ in question was last
               | updated 2013, and the paragraph about graphics cards is
               | probably older than that.
        
             | Kim_Bruning wrote:
             | Things have changed a bit since that was written. Of course
             | nowadays Graphics cards _do_ permit somewhat arbitrary code
             | to run, and can also be used by a ray tracing engine. Of
             | course said engine has to be written to utilize them.
             | 
             | For instance, the Cycles [1] engine in Blender.
             | 
             | If you're into ray tracing as a hobby you have to play with
             | it at least once! Cycles does probabilistic rendering and
             | can handle tricky things like caustics.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.cycles-renderer.org/
             | 
             | [2] https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/render/cycles
             | /gpu_...
             | 
             | (edit) : TIL there's also Luxcorerender, which is also an
             | engine that can render using GPU.
             | https://luxcorerender.org/heterogeneous-computing/
        
               | jb1991 wrote:
               | Cycles is not the only one, about half of mainstream
               | commercial 3D renderers are using the GPU for rendering
               | now. Possibly more than that.
        
           | ofrzeta wrote:
           | Are you telling me my 3dfx Voodoo card is useless?
        
             | _joel wrote:
             | Still in production... I guess :)
             | https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=100871
        
       | CiaranMcNulty wrote:
       | I played with this a lot during my degree back in 97-99. A friend
       | used it to render her final year project.
       | 
       | Amazing to see it's still going!
        
       | susam wrote:
       | About 11 years ago, after having written a tiny ray tracer from
       | scratch using Java, I taught myself some ray tracing with POV-
       | Ray. My goal was to learn a few POV-Ray features each day over 25
       | days and render some interesting scenes that exercise those
       | features.
       | 
       | I began with simple spheres and cubes and gradually progressed to
       | more intricate shapes and textures. Here are the results:
       | 
       | https://github.com/susam/pov25
       | 
       | The source code is in the "src/" directory. The rendered images
       | are included in the README (scroll down to see them). I hope you
       | like them!
        
         | cl3misch wrote:
         | I find the kaleidoscope surprisingly cool. In hindsight it's
         | obvious but to get this out of a raytracer is somewhat
         | unexpected to me.
         | 
         | https://github.com/susam/pov25#Kaleidoscope
        
       | mytailorisrich wrote:
       | It ran on Atari ST and I remember I had to let it run all night
       | to get fancy reflective spheres in all their 320x200 glory.
        
       | pjmlp wrote:
       | Back in the 90's we had to leave our computers running all night,
       | to get nice images out of POV-Ray, this brings back some
       | memories.
        
         | jpalomaki wrote:
         | We wrote some small tools with Turbo Pascal to generate number
         | of scene files, then rendered these to create small animations.
         | Having a camera move over a reflective chessboard was pretty
         | amazing.
        
       | vergessenmir wrote:
       | Showing my age here but povray is what got me into software
       | engineering. I wrote a raytracer in Pascal + Assembly and then in
       | C and ASM
       | 
       | This was in 1995.
        
         | sumtechguy wrote:
         | Having to write one for a class in college made me a master of
         | pointers and C. Arrays within arrays rendering to Z buffers and
         | crude matrix operators. Now all built into a nice lib and 3
         | calls away.
        
       | ABS wrote:
       | I still remember when I used to leave my 386 sx 25Mhz running all
       | night to render very simple scenes with POV-Ray (somehow sleeping
       | through the loud fan noise!).
       | 
       | And the extreme excitement the day I upgraded to a 486 dx 33/66
       | Mhz which, thanks to the math co-processor, rendered those same
       | scenes in (10s of) minutes instead!!
        
         | LoganDark wrote:
         | > somehow sleeping through the loud fan noise
         | 
         | Sometimes white noise helps with sleep, so this may not be that
         | big of a surprise.
        
           | ABS wrote:
           | yes, but that wasn't white noise I assure you :-D
        
             | p_l wrote:
             | Especially if there was classic IDE HDD grinding involved
             | :D
        
               | amlib wrote:
               | I loved that deep scratchy bass, modern hard drives are
               | so quiet... I miss sleeping to my computer defragging all
               | night long :(
        
               | doubled112 wrote:
               | Not all modern drives. One of mine goes "thunk thunk
               | thunk". I could hear it from rooms away in one case I had
               | it in.
        
               | blacklion wrote:
               | I've had 24x7 FIDO node in my room for years. I've
               | silenced modem pulse dialing by replacing relay with
               | expensive one. I've silenced CPU cooler by using 90mm 12v
               | fans connected to 5v (yes, in 486DX era). But HDD was
               | unbeatable.
               | 
               | On the other hand, if I wake up in the middle of the
               | night due to HDD grinding, I was sure that I have new
               | mail (echoareas) to read!
        
           | eru wrote:
           | Pedantic nitpick: you are most likely talking about a
           | different 'colour' of noise. White noise is really harsh, and
           | probably not what your fan produces.
           | 
           | See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colors_of_noise
        
         | entropyie wrote:
         | Are you me? :-D Same story, had an AST 386 which I upgraded to
         | a 486 DX33... I learned to program in the 90s by writing povray
         | scene files, which taught me C style syntax and primed me to
         | write actual C/C++/Java in the years that followed. I spent
         | thousands of hours with povcad and povray on windows 3.1...
        
           | ABS wrote:
           | :-D I already knew (some) C, lots of Turbo Pascal and Basic
           | by that time so I would generate povray scene files using a
           | small C program I had developed which took various equations
           | as starting point to plot spheres on the curves
        
             | dayjah wrote:
             | Hah, same except my dad showed me how to write a simple
             | search and replace using a DOS batch script to generate
             | many files to then pass into the renderer.
             | 
             | I used it to do camera pans, lighting effects, etc.
        
           | dcpit wrote:
           | Stop showing off, guys ... ;-) About 30 years ago, I let my
           | Atari 1040STF (8Mhz, no hard drive...) scratching a floppy
           | disk all night long to render this very blob :
           | http://csi.chemie.tu-
           | darmstadt.de/ak/immel/graphics/povray35...
        
             | G3rn0ti wrote:
             | You ddos'ed your university home page. ;)
        
               | prox wrote:
               | No the Atari is still rendering to this day!
        
               | andrehacker wrote:
               | Maybe he'll get to use the "that would be impressive
               | except if they had known what they were looking for,they
               | would have seen it written on my dorm room window" quote
               | later today.
        
             | entropyie wrote:
             | Lol, I also have some povray renders still online on my uni
             | page... Not linking though ;-)
        
             | technothrasher wrote:
             | I feel like the privileged guy in the room, as I was
             | running POV-Ray on a fancy new SPARCstation back in those
             | days.
        
             | chaboud wrote:
             | Seems like the Atari was repurposed into doing duty as a
             | webserver...
             | 
             | (Kidding. Posting links on HN is basically a community load
             | test.)
        
             | jbl0ndie wrote:
             | What were you modelling? Cyclopropane? I did something
             | looking similar using a Fortran tool called Gaussian not
             | long after.
        
           | bfmalky wrote:
           | Also are you me? Except I had a 486sx and I tried in vain to
           | persuade my parents to buy a maths co-processor for it. It
           | would have probably saved them money in the long run from
           | electricity bills.
           | 
           | Some of my first programming was writing QBasic programs to
           | generate povray scene files.
        
             | fullstop wrote:
             | I had a 486dx and it was such a huge upgrade over a 286. I
             | ordered pov-ray from some shareware catalog since I didn't
             | have internet access, and it arrived on 3.5" floppies.
        
           | noworriesnate wrote:
           | What on earth this was me too!! I still remember leaving my
           | 486 rendering all night after I had messed with the computer
           | and disconnected the CPU fan. Several hours of sleep later
           | there was a loud blaring alarm, because the CPU was about to
           | overheat. It took like 4 hours to overheat! Can't remember
           | what rendering tool it was though.
        
         | CrLf wrote:
         | My personal record was 50 hours for a single 640x480 scene on
         | my Pentium 100 MHz. Memories...
        
         | glimshe wrote:
         | What 386 owner hasn't rendered that sample POV Ray scene with a
         | glass of wine? It made me feel that my beloved computer could
         | do "professional" graphics.
        
           | sumtechguy wrote:
           | Then you would find the NCC-1701 from some BBS...
        
           | glandium wrote:
           | I didn't. I was too busy rendering that sample POV Ray scene
           | with a sunset.
        
         | thesnide wrote:
         | my dad wanted to buy a 486sx, i convinced him to go for the
         | more expensive dx for povray and factint...
         | 
         | Yeah. I know now about the int in fractint :D
        
           | stevage wrote:
           | And then Terragen.
        
             | Twirrim wrote:
             | It was VistaPro, for me. So many hours of fiddling with
             | variables, and rendering new worlds.
        
               | kstrauser wrote:
               | I spent so much time on VistaPro on my Amiga 1000. I
               | later bought a 2000, then an 030+FPU card. I was a
               | rendering madman for the next month.
        
           | Damogran6 wrote:
           | ahh. Fractint.
        
         | mattanimation wrote:
         | yes! I did the same thing, although I never got a 486 and
         | jumped to a amd k6-2 with Blender when it came out. Never had
         | the math co-processor either, although it would have been nice.
        
         | angst_ridden wrote:
         | Same here! I still have some fairly simple 320x240 images that
         | took all night to render.
        
         | glonq wrote:
         | I'm old [and stupid] enough to remember running a floating-
         | point-only raytracer on a non-FP PC using a software-emulated
         | math coprocessor. I think I measured output in *hours per
         | frame*.
        
         | _whoDis wrote:
         | Moray modelling program in Dos. Fun times
        
         | mycall wrote:
         | Color cycle mode was so rave too.
        
       | rffn wrote:
       | Ah, the memories. First DKB Trace, then the newly renamed POV-
       | Ray.
       | 
       | Left the computer on for hours to get tiny pictures.
       | 
       | Adding a 387 was a huge step forward; IIRC approximately a 10x
       | speedup.
        
       | kqr wrote:
       | Many years ago I asked one of my role models how he had made some
       | pre-rendered sprites for a game, and he told me it was with POV-
       | Ray, but that he did not recommend it because it used its
       | scripting language to define scenes, which he was concerned would
       | be too complicated for someone who has not done 3D work before.
       | 
       | I have only done 3D work as a waxing and waning hobby, but then,
       | and to this day, the POV-Ray scripting interface seems like one
       | of the more natural ways to define a scene to me.
        
         | prideout wrote:
         | I created all the sprites to my game, "Noop's Odyssey", using
         | POV-Ray. My game was one of the games on a "100 Shareware
         | Games" CD-ROMs.
        
       | masswerk wrote:
       | Here are some game characters, I did with POV-Ray, and it was
       | great for such things!
       | 
       | https://www.masswerk.at/JavaPac/LostInMaze-FamilyPortrait.ht...
       | 
       | (See the link at the bottom for the game, yet another Pac-Man
       | clone. Mind that pixels where still bigger, then.)
        
       | usrusr wrote:
       | The POV-ray syntax with its wild mix of curly and whitespace
       | state description driven by a C-preprocessor lookalike
       | successfully primed my mind for making the jump from Basic and
       | Pascal to C (and eventually to other curly languages). Eternally
       | grateful, also to the IRTC that made me spend enough time with
       | the syntax to have a strong learning effect.
        
       | opentokix wrote:
       | It's been a minute since I heard pov-ray mentioned :D - Had fun
       | playing around with it in the early 2000s
        
       | sztanko wrote:
       | Are there any modern alternatives to POV-Ray?
        
         | dagw wrote:
         | Depends what you mean? If you want a modern high performance
         | ray tracer with support for all the latest hardware and
         | implementing all the cutting edge ray tracing research, there
         | is Embree and OptiX. They don't however come with their own
         | scene description language, which is what made POV-Ray so
         | popular in the first place.
        
           | sztanko wrote:
           | I was thinking for some python (or similar language) api for
           | Ray tracer that doesn't have a steep learning curve and is
           | easy to use.
        
             | kristianp wrote:
             | https://mitsuba.readthedocs.io/en/stable/index.html
             | 
             | There seems to exist python front ends to embree. How good
             | this one is, I don't know.
        
           | zokier wrote:
           | OpenUSD is probably the closest thing in terms of scene
           | description? You have both Python Api and human-readable
           | ascii format
        
         | _pferreir_ wrote:
         | Doesn't Blender's main rendering engine, Cycles, sort of use
         | ray tracing (path tracing, I believe)?
        
         | jlarocco wrote:
         | What's wrong with using POV-Ray?
        
         | opentokix wrote:
         | Yes, you can use renderman https://renderman.pixar.com/install
        
       | mobiuscog wrote:
       | I think it was in 1994 that I posted to usenet (lost in time),
       | offering 'render time' on my 286 for POV-Ray. They were such
       | amazing times, yet compared to today seem so innocent.
       | 
       | POV-Ray was my main hobby at the time, along with the community
       | of the Raytech BBS in the UK, and defined so much of my interests
       | going forward, through many 3D modelling and rendering packages.
       | 
       | Such a huge part of my younger years, and one of the biggest
       | influences on my life overall.
        
         | alexisread wrote:
         | A lot of people do similar with 3D printing now (esp. over
         | COVID to print PPE), so there is a glimmer of this time :) Time
         | to offer a real-world POV-Ray printing service? ;)
        
       | vertnerd wrote:
       | I really liked the scripting language for defining 3D scenes; I
       | bet today you could have an interactive UI that shows the scene
       | in real-time as you modify the script.
       | 
       | The last scene I rendered, about 14 years ago, was a picture of
       | the NIST national standard for pi:
       | https://raw.githubusercontent.com/tiggerntatie/pivis/master/...
        
         | EnigmaFlare wrote:
         | Can you explain what that pi thing is for?
        
           | jasomill wrote:
           | I think it's a joke. The arbitrarily accurate power series
           | approximation of pi (4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + [?]) predates NIST
           | (and the US).
        
           | vertnerd wrote:
           | It is a joke or a riddle, depending on your point of view. I
           | used to be a high school math/science teacher, so this fits
           | in at the intersection of those. If we have national
           | standards for physical things like length, or mass, why not a
           | national standard for a mathematical constant? It's just a
           | ring with a scale on it that measures the circumference.
           | Every now and then, a technician checks the value and records
           | what they see in the log.
           | 
           | Even my fellow teachers struggled to grasp the humor of the
           | thing. I suppose I'm a little strange.
        
       | maweki wrote:
       | 10 years ago I implemented a brainfuck interpreter that had as
       | output an animated povray scene description with a visualisation
       | of the brainfuck abstract machine.
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIZTFrkl0w
        
         | Keyframe wrote:
         | bro...
        
         | tverrbjelke wrote:
         | Neat video. With some subtext to explain what the different
         | "subthings" are for in brainfuck to stage and then do become
         | "multiply" would make it even more "bro!"ish :-)
         | 
         | I also spotted your openxcom play from 6 years ago and must
         | confess that I am playing it these days!
        
       | Keyframe wrote:
       | Memories! POV vs Vivid flame wars. I think it were amongst first
       | adventures in gfx on PC I had, outside of SGI and Amiga.
        
       | m-i-l wrote:
       | In 1991 or 1992 I used POV-Ray on my Atari ST to create some
       | title screens for some home videos. Completely gratuitous marble
       | text infront of a glass ball on top of water type of stuff, which
       | took all night to render, but it was fun, and crucially free. For
       | years I'd looked enviously at Cyber Studio for the Atari ST, with
       | its StereoTek liquid crystal shutter 3D glasses add-on, but it
       | was just too expensive for me at the time.
       | 
       | Then in 1996 or 1997 I thought it would be fun to use it in a
       | professional context at the software company I worked at, making
       | a 3D animated GIF version of one of the product logos which I put
       | on the web site (FWIW it looks like the 3D non-animated version
       | is still visible on the Internet Archive Way Back Machine at
       | https://web.archive.org/web/19971211003918/http://www.sophos...
       | 27 years later). Although no-one had asked for it, I was still in
       | effect getting paid to do something I used to do for fun, which
       | felt good.
        
       | contingencies wrote:
       | If you once enjoyed POV, check out OpenSCAD. It's quite similar
       | in terms of CSG concepts and primitive animation capability, but
       | more useful for getting actual mechanical design work done.
       | https://openscad.org/
        
       | nanoxide wrote:
       | My first ever contact with programming back in 8th grade some 20
       | years ago. My then-teacher's website about PoV-Ray is still
       | online, in all its late 90s goodness (in German):
       | http://asti.vistecprivat.de/index.html
        
       | animal531 wrote:
       | Probably 25 or so years ago I created my first render ever, in
       | POV-Ray of a LEGO character's head using a hypercube.
       | 
       | I only had a ruler to use for measurements of the head shape and
       | the face and it took me quite a while, but it came out better
       | than any other LEGO render I ever saw during that time. I was
       | quite proud of it for such a simple thing.
        
         | lordfrito wrote:
         | Bricklink Studio 2.0 lets you build and render Lego models
         | using POV-Ray [1]. Looks as amazing as it sounds
         | 
         | [1] https://studiohelp.bricklink.com/hc/en-
         | us/articles/650602210...
        
       | chadcmulligan wrote:
       | Used to use this and moray to make "cool" 3d graphics for clients
       | around the early 2000's, such fun
       | 
       | edit: moray is available on the wayback machine
       | https://web.archive.org/web/20220331032107/http://www.stmuc....
        
         | dayjah wrote:
         | Able to share any of the "cool"? I feel like a hit of nostalgia
         | rn.
        
           | chadcmulligan wrote:
           | long gone unfortunately, though not that fancy, just made
           | some text in moray and applied some materials, in a semi
           | transparent box or sphere, render. The reaction was always
           | wow, I always chuckled at the time.
        
       | doubloon wrote:
       | This is what I thought the internet wiuld become, back in the
       | 1990s, just tons of projects like Povray. Not addeictive dark
       | pattern trillionaires, see the recent Eli Gray article posted on
       | HN how big tech enables link fraud for example. This was before
       | FAANG existed as it does now. Apple was a struggling PC maker and
       | Microsoft was the evil empire being challenged by a Finnish
       | college student. Sun and SGI and DEC were big tech and they made
       | you know... actual tech. It was this crazy dream that it would
       | last like that forever, that the internet would just be one huge
       | BBS of Povray style people, makers and users, who were interested
       | in art and science above all else. Nobody was thinking you could
       | contract third parties of poor people to screen out death videos
       | on your BBS so they would have PTSD but you could make billions.
       | Nobody was thinking to clickfarm children.
        
         | katzenversteher wrote:
         | Very well said. I miss the early days of the internet. In
         | addition: Event though the net was not very safe at the time
         | (no/poor encryption, no much monitoring by officials etc.) it
         | kind of felt differently. Many users where at least aware of
         | the dangers of speaking with strangers and downloading things
         | but today it's somehow of more deceiving. It looks nice and
         | shiny on the outside but full of traps. Maybe because the 90s
         | web was less "shiny" on the outside, it was less deceiving?
        
         | goeiedaggoeie wrote:
         | As I have aged (almost 50 now) I have realised that greed will
         | turn any good thing dark without vigilance, and then who
         | watches the watchers. Eternal spring perpetually. A culture
         | which prioritises individual profits over the commons will
         | destroy anything not regulated.
         | 
         | As I have said before on this forum, we need a way to price in
         | the whole lifecycle of manufacturing through to waste and
         | punishments for behaviour like Purdue and the opioid crisis
         | should be the loss of all wealth generated by such dark
         | behaviour.
         | 
         | of course this is also unworkable, but I am not personally
         | certain what is workable without a secular moral revolution.
        
           | wcerfgba wrote:
           | Or we could move away from pricing everything and the
           | neoliberal obsession to turn everything into a market, and
           | restructure our economy to provide everyone with their basic
           | material needs, regardless of how much income they have.
        
             | goeiedaggoeie wrote:
             | even if we restructure everything to meet human basic
             | needs, pricing will still be part of the equation. finite
             | resources means value has to be attached to materials.
        
               | wcerfgba wrote:
               | Value and price are not the same thing. Money is a form
               | of access control which limits the availability of scarce
               | resources to those people and organisations which have
               | enough funds. It also collapses the value of all things
               | to a single dimension. There are other ways to decide how
               | much of something is produced and how it is distributed,
               | for example participatory economics.
        
               | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
               | Money isn't just a form of rationing, it creates the
               | scarcity it claims to solve.
               | 
               | A neoliberal economy wastes talent and skill in much the
               | same way an ICE wastes most of the energy from the gas it
               | burns. Vested interests clog up the engine and keep it
               | from running cleanly and efficiently.
               | 
               | This doesn't just create pollution of all kinds -
               | physical, social, political, and ecological - which makes
               | the environment a very unpleasant space for most humans.
               | 
               | It also puts a hard cap on the maximum speed, which is
               | nowhere close to what's possible.
        
               | goeiedaggoeie wrote:
               | pricing is the exercise of determining value, even in a
               | non monetary economy (think barter or contribution) you
               | still need to price the value of materials and time.
               | obviously money creates secondary effects which are not
               | related to value due to arbitrages and other effects, but
               | I do not believe you can have finite resources without
               | determining value, which is what I meant by pricing.
        
             | papa0101 wrote:
             | So, a socialist society then?
        
               | notact wrote:
               | Make it opt-in, please.
        
             | miki123211 wrote:
             | We still haven't found a better resource allocation model
             | than pricing.
             | 
             | We have tried central planning, and it resulted in
             | horrendous living standards (as compared to the western
             | world), queues all-night-long that you had to wait in if
             | you wanted to buy bread in the morning, "if you're not
             | stealing from your employer, you're stealing from your
             | family" being adopted as a common proverb, and the whole
             | system basically running (for some definition of running)
             | on bribes, favors and theft. Communism finally fell around
             | '89 in most of Eastern Europe, and we're still recovering.
             | 
             | Perhaps you could solve some of these points with computer-
             | aided optimization and dystopian AI-powered mass
             | surveillance, but is that really what we want?
             | 
             | In my view, the problem isn't capitalism, the problem is
             | the government trying to fix capitalism, but instead making
             | it much harder for small competitors to emerge, effectively
             | causing almost-government-mandated monopolies.
             | 
             | Think about what industries are complained about most in
             | America, and how regulated those industries are. You can't
             | just lay fiber, make medications or help patients without
             | going through a regulatory minefield, mostly for good
             | reasons, but this is why the big providers of these
             | services aren't outcompeted by smaller ones. There's a
             | reason why the mostly-unregulated big tech is considered to
             | be one of the most trustworthy industries among most (non
             | ideologically motivated) consumers, far surpassing any
             | political party.
             | 
             | Capitalism is sometimes bad, central planning is worse, but
             | heavily regulated capitalism is the worst of them all.
        
               | goeiedaggoeie wrote:
               | A key problem with unfettered capitalism is the tragedy
               | of the commons. If left alone rogue/selfish actors will
               | destroy that which belongs to all of us and is required
               | to live (see nature). How do you propose to solve this
               | without "benign" interference?
        
               | wcerfgba wrote:
               | > We still haven't found a better resource allocation
               | model than pricing.
               | 
               | There are many different models. Look at Elinor Ostrom's
               | work, or projects using participatory budgeting.
        
           | evilotto wrote:
           | See also: enshittification
        
         | sillysaurusx wrote:
         | Would you really go back to the internet as it was in the 90s?
         | The current one may have problems (to say the least) but it
         | also has miracles.
         | 
         | I'd go back for nostalgia, but not for practical purposes. Even
         | in the 2000s it was much harder to find information. Wikipedia
         | didn't launch until 2001, and wasn't useful till long after.
        
           | mmcgaha wrote:
           | Yes! Mostly for usenet but also for efnet and dalnet.
        
             | lizknope wrote:
             | Usenet in the early 1990's is still superior to modern
             | forums. Threads could go on for years, the newsreader
             | programs automatically marked posts as read and would only
             | show you new posts in the thread. Compared to today it is
             | hard to find what is new and then discussions die after a
             | day on places like Hacker News and Reddit after it is no
             | longer a top post on the page or subreddit.
        
           | PhasmaFelis wrote:
           | > Would you really go back to the internet as it was in the
           | 90s?
           | 
           | It's like looking at a sweet kid who grew up to be a huge
           | asshole and saying "would you really go back to that kid? He
           | couldn't even drive a car!"
           | 
           | I don't want to be frozen in the embryonic phase. I want the
           | bright future that was promised and then snatched away.
        
         | hyperthesis wrote:
         | Also the high-quality amateur scientist webpages. e.g.
         | measurements on radiation heat loss to the sky when camping.
         | 
         | OTOH... we now have sci-hub.se with high-quality professional
         | scientist papers.
        
         | tacostakohashi wrote:
         | Me too...
         | 
         | Sometimes I wonder, what is current / next thing that's like
         | the PC / BBS / early internet scene of the 90s, with such a
         | rich ecosystem of innovation, hobbyists, open source /
         | shareware, where one or two people in a garage have as much of
         | a chance of changing the direction as any entrenched company?
         | 
         | At least from the outside, the bitcoin scene of the early-mid
         | 2010s looked like that - although there was plenty of dumb hype
         | about the "product" itself, there was also of opportunity for
         | innovation with mining, exchanges, and trading setups.
         | 
         | What seems like it could be the next such scene?
        
       | DragonMaus wrote:
       | I spent so many hours with POV-Ray when I was younger, rendering
       | LEGO models I had made with MLCAD.
       | 
       | Some of those renders even found their way into a project I did
       | in school for CAD class.
        
         | josefdlange wrote:
         | Nostalgia unlocked...
        
       | steve1977 wrote:
       | To add some anecdote, I remember doing a short animation with a
       | Star Wars A-Wing Fighter (the model for which I downloaded, not
       | made myself). I added light sources in the engines for that
       | "glow" effect.
       | 
       | Unfortunately, I messed up some of the geometry in the animation,
       | so while the A-Wing was rolling to one side, the two lights were
       | rolling to the other side ;)
       | 
       | Which I of course only found out after a day or so, as renders
       | were so slow (and this was something the size of a poststamp...)
        
       | amenghra wrote:
       | I love the hall of fame (https://hof.povray.org/), with
       | https://hof.povray.org/Riemann_Sphere-Isosurface.html being my
       | favorite. If someone made a simple povray => stl converter, I
       | would get that one 3d printed.
        
         | no_news_is wrote:
         | https://grabcad.com/library/m-c-escher-sphere-spirals-1
        
       | david_p wrote:
       | I was 12 in 1996, in southern France, and my art teacher held a
       | lunch-time club to teach us 3D modelling.
       | 
       | We were using MNM (midnight modeler) and POVRay to create some
       | cool 3D models on my schools 386 computers.
       | 
       | I was dreaming of, one day, working at ILM. Good memories :)
        
       | mscharrer wrote:
       | Some POV-Ray art I created years ago:
       | https://mscharrer.net/povray/scenes/ Source code is always
       | included.
        
       | dicroce wrote:
       | Damn, I remember finding POVray on BBS's in the pre internet
       | days. So cool that they have kept it going all this time.
        
       | KqAmJQ7 wrote:
       | This is very old but imo very interesting index of pov-ray stuff
       | by various artists.
       | 
       | https://www.f-lohmueller.de/links/index_re.htm
        
       | geon wrote:
       | Povray and the Internet Raytracing Competition was my entire
       | world in the late 90s.
       | 
       | https://www.irtc.org/stills/
        
         | angst_ridden wrote:
         | Same here! And yet the only time I placed it was for an image
         | I'd created in Strata Studio-Pro.
        
       | indyjo wrote:
       | While POV-Ray was a cool project, let's not forget how far we
       | have come with Blender and what a great success for the Free
       | Software movement it represents.
        
         | dagw wrote:
         | What I'm kind of missing with Blender and the likes is the
         | procedural 'magic' and surprise of POV-Ray. How just typing a
         | few lines of 'code' into a text file could produce wondrous and
         | mind blowing images, and then just changing a couple of numbers
         | would give you an entirely different and unexpected result.
         | Blender makes it infinitely easier to get exactly the result
         | you want, but sometimes that not what you actually want.
        
         | eggy wrote:
         | I was one of the original donors in June 2202, iirc, for Ton to
         | buy Blender and start the Blender Foundation. I used birthday
         | money and sent I think, $50, that's why I remember it to this
         | day. I still use Blender, but I was using it back then to
         | generate 3D reliefs to carve on my self-built 4x8 foot CNC
         | router table. I wrote a script based on a shape-from-shading
         | algorithm originally developed by NASA to get more out of all
         | of the single-lens B&W satellite photos they had. My company
         | was The Wooden Image. To the other poster: you could do
         | procedural stuff in Blender early on using Python scripting,
         | although I was using POV-Ray very early on.
        
         | anthk wrote:
         | POV-Ray was free too since a few versions.
        
       | weinzierl wrote:
       | Mark Shuttleworth used it to render _Reach for the stars_ on the
       | ISS in 2002.
       | 
       | For me, POV-Ray and FractInt were the first real programs I read
       | and understood. They were my C tutors.
       | 
       | Also, you've probably been raytracing too much if you're in this
       | thread. And you probably know who David K. Buck is.
        
       | lizknope wrote:
       | My roommate in 1992 would run this on his 386DX with the 387 math
       | coprocessor. It would take literally days to run to create a
       | small 640x480 image.
       | 
       | This was in the days of DOS where you could only run one program
       | at a time. It would run all night and then in the morning he
       | would stop it so he could use the computer for other things. But
       | he had some kind of Targa .tga file utility to merge the files
       | together.
       | 
       | Then he compiled povray for our Sun workstations and he would
       | split up the rendering so that each machine would render 50 lines
       | of the image and he could merge them together with that utility.
       | 
       | I remember how happy he was that he could render stuff 20 times
       | faster.
        
       | koolala wrote:
       | POV: PLY Author
        
       | Something1234 wrote:
       | I love POV-Ray. I learned about it in college when I was trying
       | to find things to do on my gaming desktop that weren't gaming.
       | It's so much fun to mess with and make different things with.
       | There's some super impressive examples and stitching the images
       | together is a lot like magic.
       | 
       | It's honestly really satisfying to use.
       | 
       | I imagine a lot of people can use it. I made dice with it
       | already.
       | 
       | https://www.henryschmale.org/2022/02/22/povray-dice.html
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | > things to do on my gaming desktop that weren't gaming
         | 
         | This is such a funny statement. What a strange perspective.
        
       | fidotron wrote:
       | Povray clearly holds a special place for many of us. For me it
       | was the first use (via slow dial up) to access HENSA (higher ed
       | national software archive) in the uk for public domain software,
       | and this by itself was mind blowing, in between dealing with my
       | mother keeping picking the other phone up and dropping the
       | connection.
       | 
       | The batch processing tools of that era for graphics were
       | qualitatively different from the real time interactive editors.
       | There is something to be said for the imperfect serendipity that
       | would result. The closest thing these days, oddly, is ML
       | training, where part of the appeal is the sense the computer is
       | working super hard for you. Were you to recreate the same
       | concepts on modern hardware you would do something like SDF CSG
       | on GPUs, but it would be surprisingly interactive and so missing
       | this surprise element.
        
       | hooby wrote:
       | I remember playing around with that like... 20 to 25-ish years
       | ago.
       | 
       | Back then only pre-rendered cut-scenes could come close to having
       | graphics like that, and I dreamed of the day when games actually
       | look like that realtime.
       | 
       | Kinda ironic that now that games actually do look like that (if
       | not even better), I prefer to play retro pixel-art indie games,
       | which actually put their focus on gameplay instead of graphics.
        
         | anthk wrote:
         | >Do look like that
         | 
         | Eeeeeeh... some advanced scenes with crazy complex lightning
         | are still unmatched even from Unreal 5.
        
       | codazoda wrote:
       | I cut my teeth on POV-Ray. It hasn't been updated in some time
       | but being able to code scenes has a lot of advantages.
       | 
       | For product design I use OpenSCAD. Maybe POV-Ray made this style
       | of design popular.
       | 
       | A couple weeks ago I decided to use Blender for some 3D print
       | modeling. I needed to make a wheel cap for my son, who had broken
       | his. Although I love Blender I was disappointed when I wanted to
       | update some things later in the design phase. Blender has some
       | destructive editing that caused me grief. Perhaps you could avoid
       | this with some additional mastery of the tool.
        
         | prox wrote:
         | There are tools like Fluent that help a lot :
         | https://blendermarket.com/products/fluent
         | 
         | The programmer is really cool and responsive on his Discord
        
       | jgarzik wrote:
       | DKBTrace and POV-Ray were my introduction to CGI.
       | 
       | Open source meant it was possible for an Average Person with No
       | Budget to do CGI animations and stills.
        
       | ecliptik wrote:
       | POV-Ray was my first introduction to HPC clusters. In the early
       | aughts a few of us in college participated in a summer program at
       | Wright Patterson Air-force Base to build a MPIPOV [1] cluster out
       | of 10 old Sun SPARCStation 20s with "Happy Meal" NICs.
       | 
       | We documented the process of installing Linux (Debian),
       | configuring the network, compiling MPIPOV from source and
       | clustering them together.
       | 
       | It was a thing of beauty to watch the rendering speeds increase
       | and the blinkenlights putting on a show in that lab when we were
       | done.
       | 
       | If I remember correctly they planned to take what we documented
       | and use for a much larger cluster they were building, but never
       | found out the specifics.
       | 
       | 1. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/648136.748781
        
       | pragma_x wrote:
       | 32+ years and still kicking. Simplicity at it's best: all you
       | need is a text editor and lots of CPU time.
        
       | benterix wrote:
       | Ah sweet 1990s... I remember tinkering with POV-ray and then
       | discovering Blue Moon Rendering Tools - it felt like magic!
        
       | benwerd wrote:
       | Honestly delighted that this still exists. Like others, I used to
       | leave my computer running overnight to render. Dating myself, but
       | it was a big deal in the BBS scene in the UK in the early
       | nineties - so many files and techniques being swapped.
        
       | cadr wrote:
       | I remember including something I rendered in POV-Ray on one of my
       | college applications in the mid-90s.
        
         | MentallyRetired wrote:
         | Right? seeing the name brought back a rush of memories. I had
         | no idea it was still around.
        
       | usefulcat wrote:
       | I remember being in college in the 90s when the school got a
       | bunch of new HP workstations for the lab.
       | 
       | perl + povray + rsh = distributed rendering!
        
       | jwells89 wrote:
       | I think I remember playing with POV-Ray (along with Yafaray) as
       | alternative renderers for Blender back in the early 2000s, not
       | long after Blender had been ported to OS X. At that point I had
       | been making simple scenes in Blender for a while but had grown
       | tired of the limitations of its internal renderer, most notably
       | its inability to render caustics and bounced light, and so was
       | trying my luck with other renderers.
       | 
       | Never did get that far with either. If I recall, the problem with
       | POV-Ray was getting the Blender file translated correctly for
       | POV-Ray to render right, and while Yafray didn't have the
       | translation issue it was too slow to practically use on my little
       | 400Mhz iMac G3.
       | 
       | It never even crossed my mind back then to directly write code
       | for POV-Ray. At that point, in my teenage mind 3D was something
       | you did with GUI software packages like Strata 3D and Blender.
        
       | chaoticmass wrote:
       | There was a POV ray render of a McIntosh tube amp that I used to
       | show people and nobody knew it was computer generated.
        
         | chaoticmass wrote:
         | https://hof.povray.org/images/mcintoshhdri3.jpg
        
       | jandrese wrote:
       | Wow, POV-Ray, what a blast from the past. I thought it might be
       | fun to see how fast a scene renders today vs. back in the 90s
       | with my Pentium-75, but apparently they've decided to integrate
       | Boost so it takes forever to compile.
       | 
       | Edit: My old scripts are no longer compatible. :(
       | 
       | Edit2: The -MV option is your friend. :)
       | 
       | Yeah, modern machines are fast. Trace Time: 0 hours 0 minutes 0
       | seconds (0.126 seconds)
       | 
       | I seem to recall this render taking a couple of minutes on my old
       | machine.
        
       | jpitz wrote:
       | I spent a lot of time with POV-Ray. Back in ~1992 I had the IBM
       | C++ Compiler for OS/2 and spent a day or so tweaking the source
       | to get it to compile. Fun times.
        
       | brcmthrowaway wrote:
       | How does POVRay compare to Cycles?
        
         | Synaesthesia wrote:
         | Povray is 30 year old tech, Cycles runs on a GPU, its way more
         | advanced.
        
       | thomashabets2 wrote:
       | I'm rendering Quake Done Quick (a Quake 1 demo) using POV-Ray.
       | It's not fast. :-)
       | 
       | https://blog.habets.se/2015/03/Raytracing-Quake-demos.html and
       | qpov.retrofitta.se
       | 
       | Here's an earlier video from before I added level texture mapping
       | support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y85pVYyK2uA
        
       | RobRivera wrote:
       | PovRay, now thats a name I have not heard in quite some time
        
       | 29athrowaway wrote:
       | ChatGPT is absurdly bad at POVRay.
        
       | r24y wrote:
       | This is an amazing project and I'm glad it exists. My college
       | capstone project was building a 3d scanner, and we were able to
       | use POV-Ray to create a repeatable test environment for our
       | algorithms. Wish I had an excuse to play around with it nowadays.
        
       | fgdelcueto wrote:
       | As many here, I spent too much time with POVRay in my youth.
       | About 8 years ago I decided to try an idea that I had in my mind
       | and decided to install it and relearn it. I wanted to try this
       | fractal idea made of toruses.
       | 
       | It's a 9000px image, so I uploaded it here
       | https://www.easyzoom.com/imageaccess/beecf8383ac249978d943b8...
       | where you can zoom in to see the detail.
       | 
       | I remember being excited every month to see what people would do
       | in the raytracing competition. Good times :D
       | http://www.povray.org/competition/
        
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       (page generated 2024-06-11 23:01 UTC)