[HN Gopher] Ice - open source menu bar manager for macOS
___________________________________________________________________
Ice - open source menu bar manager for macOS
Author : saikatsg
Score : 563 points
Date : 2024-06-07 05:11 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| arvinsim wrote:
| Glad that there are now open source options after Bartender was
| acquired.
| kstrauser wrote:
| Not the submitter, but I installed this a couple days ago to
| replace Bartender. For those not following along at home, the
| Bartender author just sold it to some sketchy app mill. It's an
| app that legitimately requires screen recording permissions to
| work. I trusted the old author's reputation. I have zero trust in
| the own owner.
|
| Ice isn't as good yet. It's not nearly so configurable. For
| example, you can either hide all icons or none. You can't decide
| to show some of them all the time. That's a bummer. I'll still
| happily accept that trade off to replace Bartender, which I'd
| previously purchased several versions of. It's dead to me.
|
| Great job so far, Ice. I hope you keep improving!
| omlitt wrote:
| It's missing a lot, especially for a MacBook with a notch. I
| went with ibar until ice or any other app gets more features
| that bartender had.
|
| -Difficult to configure unless you don't have a lot of apps in
| the top bar. -No way to scroll through the list. -Does not
| offer a way to show the extra icons in a bar that displays
| below. -No search functionality. This is something I used
| frequently. -Folders which were recently added to Bartender was
| a nice option.
|
| I do hope the developer is planning on adding more features.
| nobodywasishere wrote:
| You can always show some icons by moving them to the right of
| the open/close icon
| omlitt wrote:
| This only works when you don't have many icons. You can't see
| ones that are hidden behind the notch. If you can, I missed
| this.
| nobodywasishere wrote:
| Ah yeah that's a good point. Don't know if this covers that
| use-case yet
| draugadrotten wrote:
| From the blog:
|
| _I understand that the transition hasn't been entirely smooth.
| Recently, there was a change in the signing certificate for the
| app, and unfortunately, this change wasn't communicated
| properly to you, our loyal users._
|
| https://www.macbartender.com/b5blog/A-New-Chapter-for-Barten...
|
| previous discussion on the hidden sales:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40584606
| nicolas_t wrote:
| Argh, I didn't realize that the app was sold and I paid for the
| upgrade recently :( If I had known I wouldn't have. I wonder if
| this could be a case for a chargeback, since the owner silently
| sold the app
| kevsim wrote:
| Why do these apps require screen recording permissions to work?
| Just curious.
| eviks wrote:
| To get information about other apps' icons
| SpaghettiCthulu wrote:
| If true, that's a wild permissions model
| nativeit wrote:
| Among many. Apple's security model has a lot of ups and
| downs like this. I gather any app that needs access to
| anything on the screen outside of itself requires "screen
| recording" permission. I know all of the Remote Desktop
| apps, as well as color sampling functions in browsers,
| Adobe's apps, and all of the designer tools with similar
| functionality require it.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| You wouldn't want your mouse driver, for example, being
| able to see _every_ piece of software in your menu bar by
| default without extra permissions?
|
| The case for "I need to see what apps are in the menu
| bar" is so rare there's no setting for it -> "screen
| recording" is the closest one.
| yig wrote:
| Dozer [0] doesn't require any special permissions. I guess
| this is needed by Bartender because it creates a little
| pop-out menu that shows the icons somewhere else?
|
| [0]
| https://github.com/aonez/Dozer/releases/tag/v4.2.1-silicon
| swah wrote:
| To run a bunch of "hacks" that make it work better than the
| alternatives, I guess:
|
| https://www.macbartender.com/Bartender5/PermissionInfo/
| atmosx wrote:
| Thanks for the heads up. I use bartender, I will replace it
| with this app.
| vmladenov wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this note, I completely missed this
| development. Sad to see what has become of this app.
| txdv wrote:
| I just bought it a month ago for max support for a ridiculous
| price like 50eu :(
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| After many years of updates I've also bought the mega
| supporter license this year, which I deeply regret - not
| because of the money lost but because it seems that author
| has misused our trust.
| web3-is-a-scam wrote:
| I didn't know Bartender was sold. I thought it was fishy to
| need screen recording permissions but I assumed it was because
| of "security" features of the new macOS/m series chip/whatever
| so I just let it go because I trusted the Bartender dev.
|
| Uninstalled. What a shame.
| ziml77 wrote:
| Bartender did need screen recording permissions for certain
| features to work under the more locked down security model in
| macOS 11+. That happened well before Bartender was sold.
| jmuguy wrote:
| Ice (and other menu bar managers) require the same
| permissions - your assumption was correct and Bartender has
| needed those permissions for a while.
| c-hendricks wrote:
| Hidden Bar doesn't, I'm guessing the screen recording
| permission is needed for showing on hover.
| hbn wrote:
| It does need screen recording permissions because trying to
| do what Bartender does on a closed down system like macOS is
| inevitably going to require a hack.
|
| The issue is we trusted the dev because we knew who he was
| and he'd have an angry mob after him if he was caught doing
| something sketchy. Now that it's sold to an unknown third
| party, there's no one to hold accountable for this software
| we're trusting with screen recording permissions on our
| machines.
| scottoreilly wrote:
| > For example, you can either hide all icons or none.
|
| I thought so at first too, but it's just a confusing UI. The
| documentation says:
|
| > Simply Command + drag your menu bar items to rearrange them.
|
| What isn't said is that this dragging also allows you to keep
| some of the items permanently showing. Anything you drag to the
| right of that double arrow icon will stay there.
| oefrha wrote:
| Good thing it's been added to README now, I was similarly
| stumped two days ago and only found out from the issue
| tracker: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40580582 The
| instructions really should be in the app, though.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I swear I tried that. Guess not! In that case, it covers 95%
| of what I used in Bartender.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| It's really weird, non intuitive but once you figure it
| out, it's great. For example, if you cmd drag something, it
| puts you back into edit mode. The chevron design system is
| weird: they need to just mimic the coloring they show in
| the README.
| latexr wrote:
| > I trusted the old author's reputation. I have zero trust in
| the own owner.
|
| As of now, I have zero trust in the old author too. The lack of
| communication is the fault of _both_ parties. Ben Surtees has
| caused serious damage to their own reputation. Any new software
| released under that name will have a hard time gaining trust
| and traction.
| CodeWriter23 wrote:
| Probably one of the terms of sale. But choosing to receive
| even more money above protecting the privacy of those who
| previously paid you money and trusted you is pretty dastardly
| IMO.
| latexr wrote:
| I would say that if it was one of the terms of the sale (we
| don't know), that's even worse. If a buyer makes that
| request, the seller should be even more conscious of "who
| the heck am I selling to?"
| carlosjobim wrote:
| And who are you to slander a named person and publicly
| question his reputation, for selling his own business that he
| created to somebody else? Your behaviour is not proportional
| to what has happened. It is an icon utility.
| callalex wrote:
| Which part of the statement is slander?
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Saying that somebody has a damaged reputation.
| latexr wrote:
| That is called an opinion. It is subjective yet
| demonstrable by all the people voicing their unhappiness.
| That's what a reputation is: the beliefs and opinions
| generally held about someone.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| Why do you not acknowledge any of the points made?
| Selling a business is a big deal and an announcement
| should be made. Not doing so is at best short sided and
| ignorant.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Other people are addressing those points better than I
| would. I think it is out of proportion to denounce and
| name the individual developer. Why does everything have
| to turn into a witch hunt? And why do you have to call me
| ignorant for not thinking like you?
|
| Would any hacker be proud to explain to their grand
| parents that they got very upset that their icon hiding
| app was sold?
| chriscjcj wrote:
| Libel is in printed form.
|
| Slander is in oral or spoken form.
|
| Saying harmful things about someone is neither libel nor
| slander if those statements are factual. It's only libel
| or slander if the statements that are made are false.
|
| IANAL but... It is my understanding that statements can
| be considered "per se" libel or slander even if they are
| expressed as opinion as long as they are made negligently
| or with malice and they cause reputational harm.
| latexr wrote:
| > And who are you
|
| A paying customer of Bartender.
|
| > to slander
|
| It is not slander to say you distrust someone.
|
| > a named person
|
| Ben's name was already public. Bartender was published
| under "Surtees Studios", after all. Ben has also appeared
| in at least one podcast. Trusting Bartender meant trusting
| Ben, the developer, the person.
|
| > for selling his own business that he created
|
| That's not what's in question. No one is blaming Ben for
| selling Bartender, the complaint is that it was done in
| secret. And it would've continue to be a secret were it not
| for a feature in MacUpdater that someone noticed.
|
| > It is an icon utility.
|
| No, it is not. It is an app that requests Screen Recording,
| Accessibility, and Location permissions to do its job. Thus
| it is an app which requires a high degree of trust. That
| the new owners added an analytics framework to, and who
| knows what else. This case is awfully similar to when a
| developer sells a browser extension to someone shady
| because the profit is in the user-base.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| > It is not slander to say you distrust someone.
|
| Of course it is slander to say that somebody's reputation
| is damaged. Especially when it's not a public figure.
| Just that somebody's name is public, doesn't make them a
| public figure. And you even continue. Step out of the mob
| frenzy for a while and try to look at how you are
| behaving from a higher perspective. Is it right of you to
| treat a person like that, because he sold his own
| business? It matters little you once purchased a product
| from him. Software change owners all the time.
|
| Until there is definite proof of malevolence you should
| calm down, as should the other hackers. This business has
| the possibility of becoming a great embarrassment for
| Hacker News in the future.
| latexr wrote:
| > Of course it is slander to say that somebody's
| reputation is damaged.
|
| Of course it is not. Reputations are, by definition,
| opinions. And opinions are subjective.
|
| > because he sold his own business?
|
| If you're not going to engage in good faith and will just
| keep repeating the exact same argument after its
| inaccuracy has been pointed out to you, I don't see the
| point in continuing the conversation.
|
| Engage with the words, not the strawman in your head.
|
| > you should calm down
|
| I am calm. Again, you're projecting what you want to see,
| not the reality.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| It doesn't matter that it's your opinion. Naming a person
| as having a damaged reputation is very serious. That can
| and will have real life consequences, all for some
| bickering about a utility tool for MacOS. Be
| proportional. You wouldn't publicly name some other
| person as having a damaged reputation in real life, so
| why do you consider it acceptable to do here?
|
| And you shouldn't give apps permission to record your
| screen. That's your responsibility.
| kashunstva wrote:
| It's libelous to write false statements with the intent
| to harm the reputation of private person; but _observing_
| that their reputation appears damaged? That seems like a
| stretch. Personally, I don't wish either the original
| developer or the current developer ill; but given that
| the software requires screen recording permissions in
| order to operate, the communication issued by both should
| be thorough, sensitive to the privacy and security issues
| involved, and open. None of that is the case here.
| zymhan wrote:
| You do not seem familiar with US slander laws and
| precedent.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| What does the US and their laws have to do with this?
| kstrauser wrote:
| ...that has screen recording privileges on its users'
| systems.
|
| It's not shady to sell a business. It's not shady to have
| screen recording privileges because that's legitimately
| needed to provide the functionality. It _is_ shady to sell
| that product to some unknown group without notifying your
| customers.
|
| I trust(ed) Ben Surtees to run his software on my machine
| with enhanced privileges. I'm not thrilled that someone
| else controls it now, and that I'd probably never have
| known that if I didn't follow tech news closely.
| EasyMark wrote:
| It was an icon utility that can record your screen
| butchlugrod wrote:
| Really satisfied with Ice. I've been a long-time Bartender
| user, but have thought that version 5 is a little slow and
| buggy. Ice does what I need it to do (hide/show icons) and it
| does it faster than Bartender. Not as many features, but my own
| needs are pretty simple.
| jnsie wrote:
| Thanks for flagging the sale of Bartender. As a long time user
| I had no idea and am saddened to hear the new. I'll be
| switching to Ice or another open source tool immediately.
| gaws wrote:
| > you can either hide all icons or none. You can't decide to
| show some of them all the time.
|
| This is a non-starter. I hope, with a renewed interest fueled
| by the Bartender sale and HN, the developers implement this as
| soon as possible.
| kstrauser wrote:
| Looks like I was wrong about that. The README was updated to
| explain how after I'd started using it.
| ars wrote:
| I know some people like it, but I find the top menu bar on a mac
| extremely non ergonomic.
|
| The argument goes that it's an easy spot to hit: Just move your
| mouse to the top.
|
| But they forget that in order to use the menu bar you have to
| _activate_ the app!
|
| In other OS's, if you want to pick an item from an inactive app,
| just click - it will activate the app, and pick the item from the
| menu bar at the same time.
|
| Not so with a mac. If you click on an active area of an inactive
| window on a mac, the click is eaten, and you have to click a
| second time to actually do what you are trying to do. Same with
| the menu bar, first you have to activate the app, then you can
| click a second time on the menu bar.
|
| I do not like it.
| sevg wrote:
| 100% agree. Not having those menu buttons visible until you
| focus means an extra click (and you can't even see what the
| menu headings are for that app until you click, so it also
| delays your thought process).
|
| Ok so you get more screen space I guess, but IMO it's not worth
| the trade off.
| allenbrunson wrote:
| having one menu bar at the top of the screen made sense when
| macs had nine-inch screens. it saved some screen real estate,
| which was at a premium at the time. but the bigger the screens
| get, the less sense this makes.
|
| apple should have switched to menu bars in each app when they
| introduced mac os x. we were all forced to make so many changes
| at the time, one more wouldn't have been a big deal.
| draven wrote:
| True. On the other hand I like that the menu is on top on the
| screen so I can just throw the pointer up (I use a trackball)
| and it will end up on the menu, no precise targeting required.
| jorvi wrote:
| People like the menu bar because of the global menu - no more
| hunting and pecking for a print or save option, with every
| application using disparate or bespoke UI kits having those
| aforementioned options be different places both visually,
| physically and logically.
|
| MacBooks are absurdly overpowered as a layman's computer, but
| the global menu means they only need to learn the OS once.
| eviks wrote:
| How do you "learn it once" if the dev can put "print" option
| anywhere using UI kit?
| piva00 wrote:
| I haven't found any apps on macOS the past 15 years where
| the "print" option wasn't where it's expected to be, would
| like an example just for the fun of it.
| eviks wrote:
| It doesn't matter, this is _not_ a property of the OS or
| the menubar location, just an unenforced convention that
| you can adhere to on Windows as well
| piva00 wrote:
| Given that the convention seems more often followed on
| macOS can't it be a property of the environment of macOS
| developers usually following the conventions better than
| on Windows?
|
| Even if not an inherent property of the system it's an
| emergent one, something causes it if it's not restricted
| by the system itself but is still a property that apps
| developed for macOS are much more homogeneous in their
| menus UI implementation than the others.
| eviks wrote:
| If you shroud this basic misunderstanding in so much
| emergent mystery, sure, but otherwise no, and the real
| reason is simple enough - that's just one of the defaults
| in some "UI kits", which macOS devs can also use,
| including "disparate or bespoke" ones, and could've been
| just as consistent without it being positioned at the
| single top spot
| piva00 wrote:
| Can we agree that it could be a 2nd or 3rd order effect
| of a design choice such as putting the menu system as
| part of the system's UI nudging developers to follow
| conventions instead of inventing their own menu UI
| because it resides inside a window which they can control
| completely, hence giving the thought of "I can do the
| menu however I want" a bit more probable?
|
| It's hard to analyse and quantify this ergonomics
| objectively so I'm just spitballing a potential way that
| the menus in Mac apps follow much more the convention
| than Windows apps. I think Apple is also much better at
| keeping their UIs consistent than what the Windows team
| is, could also be another nudge to developers to follow
| them. And no, I'm not saying they're perfect, I hate all
| their UIs like the App Store, new System Settings (it's
| frankly stupid, also in responsiveness), Apple Music,
| etc.
|
| Design choices are nudges, Apple's ecosystem has nudged
| developers much better into keeping some consistency
| across the system, it's much more jarring on macOS when
| an app doesn't follow conventions than on Windows.
| eviks wrote:
| Sure we can agree on nudges and indirect effects, it just
| wasn't the original statement I've argued with
| jorvi wrote:
| > just an unenforced convention that you can adhere to on
| Windows as well
|
| And yet on Windows I often have to do a Where's Waldo for
| certain options or even submenus. On macOS it has been
| crystal clear where to find these options for almost 25
| years if we count from Mac OS X, and you can trace some
| the lineage back all the way to Mac OS 1 which was
| launched 40 years (!) ago.
|
| The thing that has finally started to chip away at this
| steely adherence to UI conventions is nothing other than
| poorly made Electron applications, which ironically Linux
| can actually get nice menu options for via Dbus trickery
| :)
| quesera wrote:
| It matters. The menu location (and the keyboard shortcut)
| for Print has been in the Apple Human Interface
| Guidelines since the 1980s, and _all_ Mac apps adhere to
| this convention.
|
| You might be able find an exception -- there is no
| approval process for HIG in Mac apps. But you will not
| find an exception (v1.0.1 or later) in an app that has
| any meaningful user population, or is of any meaningful
| quality.
|
| Ignoring HIG without good justification is a strong
| garbage signal. It was a surefire indicator of a crap
| Windows port back in the 1990s, but I don't think that's
| even a thing any more.
| eviks wrote:
| Windows also had ancient conventions, so what?
|
| > and all Mac apps adhere to the convention, or are
| laughed out of existence.
|
| so not all Mac apps adhere
|
| > there is no approval process
|
| indeed
|
| > Ignoring HIG without good justification
|
| Oh, but there is a very easy justification - most of
| these defaults are poorly (unergonomically) engineered
| based on design ignorance from the 80s
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| I have yet to see how the defaults of windows are more
| ergonomic. I am also not aware that humans have
| significantly changed as a species since the 80s, so all
| the the ergonomic considerations are the same.
|
| Besides, it completely misses the point - ergonomics are
| often about convenience and knowing what to expect. A zoo
| of frameworks and UI paradigms is a most terrible outcome
| with any kind of HIG. Microsoft is not able to keep a
| consistent UI paradigm for their own software - what a
| shining beacon of chaos they are.
| eviks wrote:
| I have yet to see how I stated that Windows defaults are
| more ergonomic. And your limited awarenes ignores the
| fact that ergonomic considerations were not properly
| taken into account in the design in the 80s just like now
| there are still plenty of ergonomic issues
| quesera wrote:
| The Mac app ecosystem considers HIG failures to be
| serious bugs, and they do not survive. So yes, for all
| meaningful definitions, "all Mac apps adhere".
|
| You do not appear to know what you're talking about here,
| and I don't know why you're bothering to argue. Show me
| an example of an even semi-popular Mac app which uses a
| different convention for Print, and we might have a
| conversation.
|
| Your excerpted quotes are misleading, but I'll respond to
| one point:
|
| > _most of these defaults are poorly (unergonomically)
| engineered based on design ignorance from the 80s_
|
| You just invented that problem. Show me a more ergonomic
| design for Print. A large part of design/usability
| success is consistency and predictability.
| eviks wrote:
| > The Mac app ecosystem considers HIG failures to be
| serious bugs, and they do not survive
|
| Only in your fantasy world of perfect compliance. In real
| life Apple itself often doesn't comply. Like their new
| settings app can't be resized despite the fact that
| guidelines guideline "Let people resize app windows when
| possible"
|
| > I don't know why you're bothering to argue
|
| Because you're so obviously wrong in ignoring the obvious
| it's hard to resist
|
| > Show me an example of an even semi-popular Mac app
| which uses a different convention for Print, and we might
| have a conversation.
|
| Show me the part where anything in my argument depends on
| specifically Print being out of place in some app? Though
| you've manged to have a conversation despite simply
| ignoring it and making up your own point
|
| > You just invented that problem. Show me a more
| ergonomic design for Print. A large part of
| design/usability success is consistency and
| predictability.
|
| Why would I show you anything when you're so biased as to
| have ignored my lived experience of struggling with this
| persistent awfullness of unergonomic default keybinds
| that often can't be changed conveniently or at all?
| tracker1 wrote:
| Apple publishes UI guidance in terms of how/where common
| features are meant to be. If you drift from this, you will
| likely be told about it. Unlike Windows, where guidance has
| shifted over time, and even then, many would just ignore
| UI/UX standards altogether.
|
| Linux, I find to be in the middle.. applications meant for
| a given DE will usually come together relatively well,
| others less so.
| jwells89 wrote:
| It also means that app devs can't just eschew menus
| altogether in favor of junk drawer hamburger menus, like is
| so common on Windows/Linux. Even Electron apps that don't
| have menubars under Windows/Linux usually _do_ under macOS
| because it'd be silly to not populate the menubar when it's
| always there anyway.
|
| The omnipresence of the menubar also makes it an excellent
| hook point for UI enhancement utilities (e.g. a keyboard-
| driven HUD app) and automation, since it provides a universal
| interface that covers most of an app's functions, which is
| truly rare these days.
| jsomedon wrote:
| I particularly like the explanation on naming it _ice_ :
|
| > Because your menu bar becomes like ice, allowing your menu bar
| items to slide away
| walthamstow wrote:
| Sounds like GPT to me
| jingsam wrote:
| Hidden Bar is good enough https://github.com/dwarvesf/hidden
| TMWNN wrote:
| I could never get Hidden Bar to work correctly. I think it's
| because my MacBook has a notch.
|
| iBar (free at the App Store) so far does what I need.
| FinnKuhn wrote:
| My MacBook Pro also has a notch and it is working fine so the
| notch isn't the problem
| TMWNN wrote:
| I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. I ran Hidden Bar
| for months and the hidden icons only became visible left of
| the notch after clicking > maybe twice, briefly, and I
| could never figure out what I did differently. iBar worked
| immediately.
| FinnKuhn wrote:
| Hm, I don't have enough icons for them to be left of the
| notch so that might be why I haven't noticed any issues
| ;)
| sontek wrote:
| You need https://apps.apple.com/us/app/say-no-to-
| notch/id1639306886?m...
| luuurker wrote:
| That's an okay workaround, but you lose part of your screen
| and create a thick top bezel.
|
| As a laptop user, I want to use all available space, so
| what I do is to use https://topnotch.app/ (or a dark
| wallpaper) which makes the background of the bar black and
| until now I was using Bartender, which would display the
| hidden icons on a second bar under the original one when we
| clicked the icon. I barely noticed the notch.
| ninjin-carh wrote:
| I would love to try this but hesitant as I couldn't find a
| privacy policy.
|
| Can it be added or maybe I just couldn't find this?
| skrebbel wrote:
| It's open source. A privacy policy implies that the author is
| willing to make themselves liable to broken promises. Most OSS
| authors work for free and do not want to put their ass on the
| line like that.
|
| The license says "you figure it out":
|
| > THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY
| KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE
| WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
| AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
|
| "Without warranty of any kind" also excludes any warranty wrt
| your privacy.
| lyall wrote:
| I use Hidden Bar (https://github.com/dwarvesf/hidden) for this.
| It works well enough despite not being updated in a while, though
| there is a bit of jank. Just tried out Ice and it seems to be a
| nice, lower jank replacement!
| emsixteen wrote:
| I use Hidden Bar too, it's done the job for me, but if there's
| a reason to hop to another I'm all ears.
| healsdata wrote:
| It's a minor nit, but I like that Ice doesn't force me to
| have extra icons in the bar. Unless I missed a setting,
| Hidden Bar required having < and | icons for separators
| luuurker wrote:
| If it works, then there's no reason to change.
|
| I stopped using Bartender (because of the recent news) and
| noticed that Hidden Bar was last updated in Jan 2022 and
| Dozer in 2019. Neither have a way (or plan to have something)
| to handle the notch.
|
| Ice still lacks some features, but the developer is working
| on it and eventually it will be able to work around the notch
| (if you have too many icons, they'll be hidden by the
| notch... not sure what Apple was thinking). That's why I
| picked Ice.
| tomphoolery wrote:
| This is awesome for folks who don't use their own custom status
| bar! Personally, I use SketchyBar and Yabai for window
| management. SketchyBar is shown almost all the time, but the
| status bar is set to hide unless I have my cursor at the top of
| my monitor. I like this because it's a good combo of having my
| "status bar items" all compacted on the right, with the useful
| information I want on the status bar at all times...such as
| battery level, current weather, volume, the date/time, as well as
| the focused window.
|
| For those who don't want to install a custom status bar, this
| seems like it would solve similar problems of the status bar
| getting way too big with all these programs running in the
| background.
| KronisLV wrote:
| I got a MacBook for a freelance development project (also needed
| to build an iOS app) and I have to say that the OS itself feels
| pretty good. Very much a walled garden and normally perhaps
| outside of my budget (and the button order on the keyboard feels
| odd), but in general it's pretty smooth so far!
|
| Nice to see various customization options, BetterDisplay was also
| pretty useful when dealing with an external monitor (sadly I
| never figured out why there's no proper anti-aliasing on the
| external monitor).
| mastercheif wrote:
| Apple removed sub-pixel text rendering support in macOS 3-4
| years ago.
|
| They wanted to merge their GPU driver stack across iOS and
| macOS when they moved to Apple Silicon.
|
| This has come with some benefits, like the lightning fast speed
| that Macs can enable external monitors.
| nottorp wrote:
| You're saying about what I said when I first got paid to do
| some mac software :)
|
| I bought a crappy used mac, used it to make the money, then
| thought it was immoral to not get a new laptop (it wasn't a big
| project but it paid like 3x the laptop, and i was moonlighting
| it so it was all bonus money).
|
| 15 years later i have more macs than x86 boxes in my home
| office...
| anileated wrote:
| I am not the target audience for macOS menu bar managers like
| Ice. You can drag-reorder icons in pure macOS without any third-
| party software, and the additional options seem unnecessary.
| omnimus wrote:
| Why would anyone write comment like this? Like does it add
| anything to the discussion? Who cares that you dont use menubar
| apps so you dont need Bartender.
| freehorse wrote:
| Because some people may just need this so it is good for them
| to know, in conjunction to this
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/16lpfg5/hidden_prefe.
| ..
|
| > to change the spacing in the menubar and I found out it
| changes two preferences:
|
| ``` defaults -currentHost write
| -globalDomain NSStatusItemSpacing -int X
| defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain
| NSStatusItemSelectionPadding -int Y
|
| ```
|
| > which can be reverted with
|
| ``` defaults -currentHost delete
| -globalDomain NSStatusItemSpacing defaults
| -currentHost delete -globalDomain
| NSStatusItemSelectionPadding
|
| ```
|
| I learnt about these in a similar topic here. I do not need
| anything more from a bar app really, so I do not need to
| install an additional app for sth that I can just handle
| through a couple of preferences changes in the terminal. For
| people who do need more functionality, they can get one of
| these tools.
| anileated wrote:
| I opened the README and Usage section only showed how to
| reorder items, nothing else. This app is utterly unnecessary
| for that purpose. I thought, perhaps other macOS users are
| unaware of that, and my comment would help.
| mulhoon wrote:
| Seems like one of those apps ripe for Sherlocking by Apple. Which
| would also solve screen recording privacy issues.
| egypturnash wrote:
| Apple's _sort of_ already sherlocked this. The "Control
| Center" that consolidates a bunch of menu bar widgets into one
| big iOS-style dropdown full of controls solves the same problem
| of "I have more crap in my menu bar than I have room for,
| especially now that my laptop has this stupid notch". Except
| it's a private interface so absolutely zero of the programs
| that want to put stuff in your menu bar can offer up buttons in
| there.
| xlii wrote:
| Offtopic, but am I the only person surprised how badly Apple
| stalled when it comes to window management and UX on MacOS?
|
| I feel that today, as a power user/professional, MacOS wouldn't
| be usable without applications like Bartender, external window
| manager such as Rectangle/Divvy etc. I feel strong attraction
| coming from yabai, but disabling SIP is too much for me.
|
| Personally I'm reaching the point where I'd migrate to Linux ONLY
| for the user experience (I live in Emacs most of the time anyway,
| and there I could get some minimal WM on top of it, I guess).
| creesch wrote:
| I totally agree. But it also seems like a lot of people don't.
| Frustratingly enough when discussions like that come up a lot
| of people respond with a "MacOS just works differently, you
| just need to get used to it" discussion killer.
|
| Yeah, I know some design principles are different. That doesn't
| always mean they are better or couldn't be better.
|
| In general I feel like UI/UX on MacOS for the most part has
| stagnated in the past decade or so. Where there has been
| evolution, it mostly has been things (poorly) ported over from
| iOS (system preferences for example).
|
| This in contrast to other desktop platforms that have kept
| evolving and experimenting with other ways of working. Granted,
| not always improving things but often making things much
| better. Window management on windows 11 for example is just
| plain awesome imho. Certainly on wider screens or screens in
| portrait it is extremely powerful.
|
| Everything I am working on MacOS I feel very limited in that
| area. Even with tools like Rectangle it still doesn't work as
| fluid as it does on windows.
| the_other wrote:
| > But it also seems like a lot of people don't.
|
| n=1...
|
| I'm one who doesn't care. I didn't like to have a lot of
| system tray icons when I used Windows, and I don't like
| having a lot of them in macOS. I turn off the ones I rarely
| use (when I can).
|
| However, I also feel Apple have reduced the usability of the
| menu bar icons in recent iterations. Their clickable
| area/spacing has enlarged, which is counter to having small
| icons in a focused space. The Clock and Control Centre can't
| be moved around. I didn't use Control Centre at all until I
| discovered some setting that can only be toggled. Since I
| toggled it, I've forgotten what it was and haven't touched
| Control Centre since. I'd turn it off if I could. Maybe I
| need Bartender after all.
| pasc1878 wrote:
| The menu bar has now to have more icons than in earlier OSX
| as to run services like dropbox, 1password etc they now
| need to be in the menu bar whilst previously they were not
| needed there - now I suspect this might be the app writers
| fault as well as Apple's but it is an annoyance.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I think this sort of thing is more subjective and dependent
| on what the user is used to than most are willing to admit. I
| find the vaunted Aero Snap feature incredibly annoying for
| example because it's so "noisy" with its proposed-snap
| animations and how easily it's accidentally triggered
| (especially when multiple displays are involved) -- the way
| the third party app Moom does it with a popover that appears
| on green traffic light hover or key shortcut is vastly
| preferable to me.
|
| It's true that Mac desktop evolution has somewhat stagnated
| and could use some movement, but that movement shouldn't
| necessarily be toward the Win9X desktop paradigm.
| d3ckard wrote:
| Totally in the opposite camp, in the sense I think it's
| preferable to customize your experience using 3rd party apps
| and it should be encouraged model by vendor.
| Vuska wrote:
| Sadly Apple picked neither option. 3rd party apps cannot
| meaningfully interact with Spaces for example, even basic
| things like moving windows between spaces or adjusting the
| animation speed so it's not nauseating on ultrawides.
| d3ckard wrote:
| Agreed, just yesterday I was researching APIs in this area.
| Still, it's a different criticism.
| user3939382 wrote:
| There is a way to switch spaces instantly. If anyone
| actually cares I'll dig up my solution.
| drdo wrote:
| I care! Does your solution involve disabling SIP?
| user3939382 wrote:
| This utility allows it https://totalspaces.binaryage.com/
|
| You hit a keyboard shortcut, you get to the new space
| with 0 animation/transition. It can work with SIP on but
| only on macOS older than 10.14.
|
| They mention here this is due to some changes they make
| to the Dock https://totalspaces.binaryage.com/sip-details
| I'm not sure if the only part I care about (instant
| Spaces switching) would continue to work without that /
| if you turn SIP back on. I haven't tried.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > even basic things like moving windows between spaces
|
| I don't really use spaces but I've got "Displays have
| seperate spaces" turned on and Rectangle Pro has "Next
| Display" and "Previous Display" which moves the foreground
| app to, unsurprisingly, the next and previous display
| (which seems to be a space).
|
| Are you after something like "move this window to space Y"
| rather than just "next space"?
| vundercind wrote:
| I'd have said this was insane back when I was a Linux user
| but after years in Mac land... in practice, man, it's so much
| better.
|
| It still feels wrong, but I can't argue with the results.
|
| [edit] though, I mean, at a certain level wanting to
| customize your UI in X/Wayland means changing out large
| portions of your UI stack entirely. Layering on top isn't
| really crazier than that.
| suneater92 wrote:
| This extends across the system - Safari is great for battery
| life and hit or miss for performance, but it has an infuriating
| bug where it zooms out every webpage in Split View. There have
| been so many Stack Exchange and forum posts since 2013 on this
| issue and no action. Other WebKit browsers like Orion don't do
| the same thing; it's not a browser engine issue, so the only
| recourse is through Apple's stupid feedback process that spits
| out autogenerated answers to everything. Windows is no better,
| but if Adobe, Affinity and a few medical anatomy apps opened
| the doors to something similar to Proton... jeez.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| Window management is fine, what is missing are half-split/full-
| screen shortcuts. There are many apps which can set them up,
| but a built-in possibility would fix most issues, since only a
| very small subset of users cares about tiling wm even on linux.
| Though, there was a new project the other day on HN, where SIP
| can remain on: https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace
|
| I, for my part, have configured window placement shortcuts in
| Hammerspoon (also possible with KM, BTT and a what feels like a
| million of other apps) and am completely happy. I mostly look
| at the maximized terminal anyway, the splits do happen in
| neovim and tmux.
| philistine wrote:
| There are shortcuts to tile windows. Hold the green indicator
| in an app's window.
| leokennis wrote:
| Fully agree. For work I use Windows 11 and even without any
| third party tools, its ability to easily group and align
| windows using either the keyboard or mouse is vastly superior
| to what macOS has.
|
| The only thing that macOS is still best at is Expose. The
| smoothness, animations, superior Apple touchpads to make the
| gesture and then ths ease of picking the right window are
| second to none.
| art0rz wrote:
| > Expose
|
| KDE 6's new Overview effect works really well
|
| https://kde.org/announcements/megarelease/6/
| lunar_rover wrote:
| Neither is even close to how smooth Gnome's overview is.
|
| And macOS still renders only a single desktop for some
| reason.
| hbn wrote:
| Windows' multiple desktops implementation is half-baked and
| janky too. I was excited when they added that in Windows 10
| but didn't end up using it because it's too awkward, slow,
| and limited.
| imiric wrote:
| I'm not sure why you're surprised. The macOS GUI has never been
| designed with power users in mind. If you wanted to enhance
| your experience as a power user, you always had to resort to
| 3rd party software. By using Apple products you accept to use
| them as they were designed to be used, and any customization of
| the experience is a luxury that could be taken away at any
| point. Apple knows best how you should use your computers,
| after all...
|
| Linux is on the other side of that spectrum, but then you lose
| the benefit of a tightly integrated and curated ecosystem. If
| you're willing to give that up, and don't mind tinkering and
| frequently dealing with jank, then Linux might be for you.
| replete wrote:
| Not really a big deal IMO, MacOS has loads of great software
| available to improve workflow. BetterSnapTool, BetterTouchTool,
| MOS, Dropzone, Slidepad, Raycast, TotalFinder (visor feature),
| iTerm2 (dropdown shell) etc.
|
| BetterSnapTool is probably what you are looking for - for
| normal monitors the keyboard shortcuts for window management
| (modifier + arrows) are great, and for giant monitors the
| custom snap zones are great. My favourite feature is the
| ability to move/resize windows by holding down ctrl/shift while
| hovering over them.
|
| These kinds of things are a big reason I stick with Mac, great
| ergonomics and automation.
|
| Seems a better situation than the alternatives? You need a
| defensive mindset with Windows with their behaviours over the
| last 5 years
| nlkl wrote:
| I use Mac for work, Linux/Gnome for personal use, and have used
| Windows up to and including 11 both personally and
| professionally in the past (although a lot less recently).
|
| In terms of the desktop environment, I feel Mac is severely
| lacking behind. I know there are very mixed opinions on Gnome,
| but to me the Gnome UX feels extremely well thought out in
| comparison.
|
| The apple ecosystem might be very well integrated, but in terms
| of the macOS UX it feels the exact opposite. Why can't I close
| an app from mission control? Why can't I launch apps from
| mission control, but need to e.g. open launchpad first? In
| Gnome the activities view unities all of those experiences in a
| way that is seamless and just clicks for me, but in macOS
| everything seems to be separate apps/features that don't play
| together at all (out of the box at least). Add to that all the
| other small frustrations that you need to address with third
| party tools, it is - for me at least - a very unproductive out-
| of-the-box experience.
|
| Of course this is subjective, and might be partially an issue
| of (my lack of) skill/experience.
| tuyiown wrote:
| Not to disregard your remarks, I suspect they are valid, but
| they come from habits of uses of others systems, and there's
| also the good practice to avoid introducing too much ways to
| do the same thing, because it's dramatically augments your
| chances that it is known by all (in the end), works well and
| as expected.
|
| Hence launchpad is only here to shortcut finding your apps in
| the finder or the dock, mission control just an increment
| over spaces. Those are not replacement for dock. So quitting
| app, aside the app shortcut and menu, goes through the dock,
| either by dock app menu or [?]+Q on the [?]+tab app switcher.
| samatman wrote:
| This is entirely a skill issue. I don't mean that
| dismissively, let me teach you the Mac way to close apps.
|
| You hit [?]-Tab, this brings up a list of every app you have
| open. Keep the thumb on the [?]. More tabs go right, ` goes
| left. For every app you want to close, hit Q. When done,
| release [?].
|
| My preferred way to launch an app is [?]-Space and the first
| few letters of its name. This can have some frustrating
| delays of a second or two, but it will for the most part
| remember what you've opened. Other users are much more dock-
| oriented, I keep it hidden on the side and use it seldom.
| philsnow wrote:
| > ` goes left. For every app you want to close, hit Q
|
| I didn't know about either of these, thanks.
|
| Also apparently, up or down brings up a view of all the
| windows for that app.
|
| A while ago I put together some hammerspoon lua for making
| cmd-tab go by window instead of by app because that's how
| my brain works, but it's slower than the native cmd-tab.
| Are there other similar hidden tricks for Dock.app (which,
| I presume, is the thing that makes the cmd-tab overlay
| appear)?
| bartvk wrote:
| Stage Manager was introduced in Ventura, which is definitely a
| form of window management. I don't think you can call that
| "badly stalled"?
| thiht wrote:
| Does anyone actually use Stage Manager though? Probably a
| bias on my part but I don't know anyone who use it ever
| kstrauser wrote:
| I do. I made myself try it for a week a while back For
| Science and ended up kinda liking it, at least enough not
| to bother turning it off again.
|
| Yesterday my coworker asked me what neat window manager I'm
| using and it took me a moment because I'd forgotten about
| it.
| hbn wrote:
| Stage Manager is confusing as hell. It was designed for
| iPads in an attempt to give them some semblance of window
| management but even there it makes no sense. They tried to
| reinvent window management to be more "simple" but in doing
| so they made something WAY more complicated to the point
| where even computer-savvy folks can't figure out how to do
| basic tasks.
|
| https://youtu.be/sFJuAjyWOc4?t=500
| veidr wrote:
| I don't, but was astonished to find out the majority of my
| team at work uses it, and has been for a while.
| atombender wrote:
| I don't personally care about advanced window management like
| tiling windows. But I _do_ use Spaces constantly to divide my
| screen into "work" and "personal", and Apple has introduced a
| huge, annoying bug macOS Sonoma that is not being fixed.
|
| Since Sonoma, windows regularly are stuck on top of other
| windows. This has been known since the betas in 2023 [1] and
| persists till this day. It typically happens during restoring
| after a reboot, but it can happen at basically any time when a
| window is created a space that isn't the first one.
|
| The workaround is to drag the window from the second space into
| the first, release the mouse button, and then drag the window
| back into the second space. This appears to reset whatever the
| internal state keeps track of window order.
|
| [1]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/16bb19g/sonoma_finde...
| veidr wrote:
| Linux pulled ahead of macOS for desktop computing like 3 years
| ago.
|
| But, that was about 3 years after desktop computing became this
| niche thing that only GenX/Boomers still do... (T_T)
| kasutaja2 wrote:
| If you just want to make all icons visible then the easiest way
| is probably to adjust "defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain
| NSStatusItemSelectionPadding -int <value>" and "defaults
| -currentHost write -globalDomain NSStatusItemSpacing -int
| <value>". Needs restart/logout to apply. Personally I set both to
| 6. Works well if you have a static number of icons.
| benreesman wrote:
| This observation is tangential at best, so don't upvote it.
|
| But HN remains _simply unparalleled_ in finding cool software
| that makes computers more fun day in, day out.
|
| My internal jury is out on whether chatbots ranked through an
| elaborate mechanism (Instruct) via what amounts to what I wish I
| had never built on P(click) feed ranking.
|
| But the Rust Terminal Renaissance? Nix? Flox? TailScale? Linear
| and Graphite and the golang community with things like fzf?
|
| That shit makes my life better and more fun _daily_. And HN is
| where to hear about it first short of being really, really good
| at GitHub.
| Vilkku wrote:
| My biggest need for managing the icons in the menu bar is to
| prevent them from getting lost behind the notch on my 14" MBP. I
| recently discovered this question on StackExchange on how to
| change the icon spacing and padding and that has kinda resolved
| the situation, but it doesn't look visually as good.
|
| https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/465674
|
| Perhaps the padding and spacing adjustment could also be brought
| to Ice?
|
| I'm happy to see that alternatives to Bartender exist! I guess
| this is not the most straightforward thing to do, as there seem
| to be many apps for this, but most are no longer in development.
|
| As an aside, there are options in macOS to move some icons like
| bluetooth and wifi to the control center away from the status
| bar, but for some reason they always seem to come back.
| croemer wrote:
| Yep that's what I do as well,animal spacing override.
| luuurker wrote:
| That's on the roadmap:
| https://github.com/jordanbaird/Ice/issues/67
|
| The dev is also working on a second bar (like Bartender has)
| that should fix the problem for macs with notches:
| https://github.com/jordanbaird/Ice/issues/1
| geniium wrote:
| That looks very promising. Thanks for doing this.
| saghul wrote:
| Interesting! Is there a way to center the content of the bar on
| the screen? The split is very cumbersome to use on an ultrawide
| display and I'd be happy if there was a way to put the content on
| the middle 3rd.
| hbn wrote:
| If it did it would have to be only for external displays
| because the laptops all have a notch there
| residualmind wrote:
| Aw, I thought it was for managing a bar. Supplies, shifts, etc..
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Haha I thought the same.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| I was also tilted by the Bartender debacle and removed it. Tried
| HiddenBar, but then I realized that a lot of apps running in
| background offer a possibility to hide the tray icon (it is of no
| use anyway) and after some clean up in the Control Center it is
| fine as it is. YMMV, of course and it still would be better if
| Apple sherlocks it. Such small QoL changes should be a no-
| brainer.
| gregoriol wrote:
| I still use the old Bartender 4, works perfectly on macOS 14.5
| even with a notch
|
| If this tool gets the additional bar feature and some more
| customisations, it might be a good alternative
| Angostura wrote:
| The Usage section hopefully rather under-sells it:
|
| 'Simply Command + drag your menu bar items to rearrange them.'
|
| ... err yes, that's how MacOS works without add-ons
| russelg wrote:
| Judging by the last thread about Bartender, when people were
| discussing alternatives, some people did not even know that was
| how you can rearrange your menu icons. So I can see why it's
| worth mentioning.
|
| Also worth mentioning that this behaviour is completely
| undiscoverable, just like most power user interactions on
| macOS.
| DavideNL wrote:
| Fyi regarding Bartender;
|
| You could just use "Little Snitch", block internet for Bartender,
| and keep using the _latest safe version_ for a while: v5.0.49.
|
| Restore it from a backup if you can, and disable updates. Also,
| here's the "v5.0.49" file hash:
|
| https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/0ce40bb5d6f0605c91ae2dc6...
| zukzuk wrote:
| Or LuLu if you want a free, open alternative to Little Snitch.
| xmdx wrote:
| I had to install one of these tools recently because of the notch
| on newer macbooks, they hide icons that overflow and you never
| notice it. For a while I thought my apps were erroring and not
| opening properly.
|
| You have to manage it yourself with one of these tools otherwise
| they are lost to the void in my experience.
| memset wrote:
| Also xbar: https://github.com/matryer/xbar
| benyafai wrote:
| If anyone is looking for alternatives, I've been using Vanilla
| for a while and have ben happy with it.
| https://matthewpalmer.net/vanilla/
| robotmachine wrote:
| Seconded.
| luuurker wrote:
| Seems to be a nice option, but the way it handles the notch...
| I think the second bar that Bartender has and Ice will
| eventually have[0] works better.
|
| For now, I'll support Ice because it's open source. I'll donate
| more than the $10 Vanilla Pro costs just to have an open source
| alternative. It's nice to have alternatives though.
|
| [0] https://github.com/jordanbaird/Ice/issues/1
| drcongo wrote:
| I switched to this yesterday and much prefer it already.
| Bartender 5 was extremely flaky for me, this just does what it's
| supposed to.
| frob wrote:
| For about 4 years now, I've used Dozer [0] to hide and organize
| menu items. It's been mature and stable the whole time. It had
| many of the features still on the development roadmap for Ice.
| You can drag-and-drop icons, hide and reveal with clicks or
| keyboards, and have two levels of hidability.
|
| [0] https://github.com/Mortennn/Dozer
| BChass wrote:
| Same here. Only if the original author didn't abandoned the
| project.
| yig wrote:
| There is an Apple Silicon build under Releases. It's work
| fine. It doesn't ask for extra permissions.
| deagle50 wrote:
| Can this shrink the gap between icons like bartender?
| carimura wrote:
| I know this thread is on Ice, but for all the alternatives in the
| original Reddit post -- see
| https://www.reddit.com/r/macapps/comments/1d7zjv8/comment/l7...
|
| You can keep bartender on 5.0.49 as well.
| bdcravens wrote:
| I see many people mentioning other alternatives to Bartender as
| well, so I'll point out again that if you already have a
| subscription to Parallels, their companion toolbox app (a suite
| of utilities) includes a similar app
| foxandmouse wrote:
| It is just me or has this been happening more and more with mac
| apps. The unarchiver, Transmition, uTorrent..
| rovr138 wrote:
| >more and more
|
| It's been like 18 years since uTorrent... and that was Windows
| only, unless I'm crazy.
| monocularvision wrote:
| Do you mean Transmission the open source BitTorrent app for
| macOS? What's the problem with it?
| foxandmouse wrote:
| The official website was compromised and tainted .dmg files
| were uploaded to the site, using an Apple Developer signature
| to bypass the OS X gatekeeper feature
|
| The tainted packages installed a ransomware application (a
| variant of Linux.Encoder.1, but recompiled for Mac, known as
| KeRanger) that encrypts the user's files and attempts to
| force users to pay.. The developers were not complicit in the
| hack that affected their software; but I included it because
| the point I was trying to make was that hackers are aware and
| targeting apps popular among developers.
| jprd wrote:
| It took me a seriously long amount of time to realize this wasn't
| software for MANAGING AN ACTUAL BAR/PUB.
|
| Must be frustrating as a Mac user to be locked into paying lots
| of money to have a desktop OS that works how you want
| hbn wrote:
| It turns out Safari isn't for backpacking expeditions in
| Tanzania either
| kstrauser wrote:
| This is an article about a free, open source tool. Running FOSS
| tools to tweak my desktop isn't frustrating.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| Having learned that Bartender sold out, I uninstalled it and
| replaced it with.. nothing. It turns out that macOS has
| introduced minimal adjustability some time in the past without me
| knowing.
| alpb wrote:
| It should be a crime that Apple hasn't seen the popularity of
| tools like Bartender, which is major privacy violation to begin
| with, and developed their own feature for this.
| dwich wrote:
| For those like myself who used Bartender as a way to get an extra
| menu bar for their offscreen items on small / notch screens
| (something Ice doesn't have _yet_ ), I'm writing up the
| alternatives as I try them out:
| https://procrastopossum.com/bartender-alternatives/
|
| So far I'm just hoping the BetterTouchTool option pans out.
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