[HN Gopher] Compromised Visions Are Superior
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Compromised Visions Are Superior
Author : r4um
Score : 31 points
Date : 2024-06-05 06:22 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (ericnormand.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (ericnormand.substack.com)
| solidninja wrote:
| This reminds me of the excellent talk "Constraints Liberate,
| Liberties Constrain" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqmsQeSzMdw
| that is more about doing the programming rather than planning it
| as in the article, but with a similar approach.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| Surprised he used the Jaws example when the clearest case of what
| he is talking about is what I refer to as the Tragedy of George
| Lucas.
|
| The first star wars trilogy, but especially the first movie, was
| extremely budget constrained to the point where Lucas had to
| exchange his own salary for merchandising rights (an accidentally
| brilliant move), and they did the best with what they had.
| decades later, he decides that now he has the budget to make them
| the way he _really_ wanted to, he goes and makes major changes
| with CGI and destroys the original copies, which can only really
| be found in unaltered digital form on underground sites.
|
| Then the prequels come and it's very obvious he had unlimited
| budget and creative control, and the result just simply was not
| even close to good, or at the very least not even close to the
| magic of the original trilogy. Giving creators unlimited control
| seems to have great capacity to end very poorly.
| glitchc wrote:
| > Then the prequels come and it's very obvious he had unlimited
| budget and creative control, and the result just simply was not
| even close to good, or at the very least not even close to the
| magic of the original trilogy. Giving creators unlimited
| control seems to have great capacity to end very poorly.
|
| I hear this a lot, but the prequel plots had a great deal more
| politics, intrigue and a bevy of nuanced characters. The
| originals were pretty black and white in comparison. I think
| the prequel plots have aged better.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| Sorry, they just aren't. There are numerous breakdowns going
| into great detail why the plot is nonsensical and silly. This
| isn't even addressing the acting, which at times is so
| horrible it's laugh out loud funny (reportedly lucas only
| allowed actors to do single takes, although I'm not sure if
| that's ever been confirmed). From a cinematography
| standpoint, it's also kind of a mess, especially when you
| break down the absurd amount of shit he crams into nearly
| every single shot of the film.
|
| The only reason they have appeared to have aged well is
| because they filled in a lot of the silliness and nonsense
| with quality content from other sources such as clone wars
| (which ended up being good) and comics, etc. to fill in the
| gaps.
|
| It also helps them age a lot when you compare them to the
| latest trilogy, which I'm sure I don't even need to elaborate
| why that is.
|
| For the record I still occasionally watch the prequels now,
| but when they came out, they were very poorly received and
| for good reason.
| dasil003 wrote:
| A few generations have grown up with them now, which
| greatly elevates their status. It's not that unlike the
| original trilogy in that way. I can think of any number of
| films that I liked as a child, some hold up better than
| others, but even the ones that don't, the early impression
| creates a lasting fondness that is stronger than many of
| the flaws which more mature first-time viewers might not be
| able to look past.
| WJW wrote:
| I think quite a lot comes from teenage nostalgia from
| whichever era you are from. The original trilogy is not
| actually all that good, but some people still talk about it
| as if those movies are the epitome of moviemaking. I think
| it has a lot to do with the circumstances that people first
| saw them in. The prequels are also not fantastic movies,
| but as the people who saw them in cinemas as children grew
| up they came to be loved more and more. It's not so much
| the movies themselves that are liked, but the associated
| memories.
|
| I wonder if in ~10 years we'll have a new batch of people
| who like the latest trilogy. First ironically as they get
| through their edgy teenage phase, then unironically as they
| grow up further and point out some great scenes from
| between the (admittedly many) terrible ones.
| aredox wrote:
| The very first Star Wars ("A new hope") is fairly basic
| in plot, but with very good moments and no mistake.
|
| The next two, especially the empire strikes back, are
| really good in their own right in terms of film-making
| artistry. They have the right tone, rhythm, imagery,
| scenography.
|
| The rest, though, is catastrophically bad.
| glitchc wrote:
| I seem to have that reaction watching the originals. It's
| like watching a mix between a western and a soap opera, but
| set in space. Maybe it's because I watched the prequels
| first, then the originals.
|
| At least we both agree that the Clone Wars (and associated
| material) is good.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Oh, all of the stuff on the franchise that is actually
| that good are series.
| slibhb wrote:
| The prequels are truly awful. Some people (not me) say
| there's no accounting for taste but liking the prequels is as
| close as you can get to an objectively wrong opinion about
| art.
|
| The best thing you can say about the prequels is that they're
| ambitious. Lucas wasn't content to repeat himself. But the
| acting, characters, and script are all complete failures.
|
| The first Star Wars movie is indeed an example of
| "compromised visions are superior". The movie was famously
| saved in editing by George Lucas' then wife. Lucas didn't
| even direct the second and third movies, he handed them off
| to more capable filmmakers.
| bitwize wrote:
| Did you get Mandela Effected here from an alternate universe
| where the movies described in the "What If the Prequel
| Trilogy Was Good?" videos actually got made?
| deepfriedchokes wrote:
| The best art is made by starving artists.
| toast0 wrote:
| I'm going to go on record and say that the Tragedy of George
| Lucas started in ROTJ. Watching it for the first time in a
| while a few years ago, the Gonk Torture scene[1] was where my
| switch flipped. That scene is just a callout to the looped
| animatronics in the line at Star Tours --- does bad looped
| robotic torture add anything, or did Lucas put it in because
| nobody would tell him no. I think ROTJ is also where Lucas
| started becoming dependent on chroma key (although he had used
| it before). Some of the chrome keyed scenes are groundbreaking
| effects wise, and that's neat, but it takes away from
| immersion.
|
| The prequel trilogy has so many scenes that feel sterile
| because the actors are clearly separated from the backdrop.
| It's hard to feel like the actors are in a desert wasteland
| when they don't even look warm.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O0-dCLFadQ
| stnmtn wrote:
| I think this scene does add something, which is showing how
| scary this environment is to droids as R2 and C3pO are
| walking in. It shows it quickly, efficiently, without having
| to use dialogue on it. It takes ~15 seconds, and also has the
| fun side-effect of being a cute easter egg to anyone who went
| to star tours.
|
| I think it's a rare example of a good easter egg because it
| still communicates something important to the scene without
| just feeling like it's there for a nod or reference.
| bee_rider wrote:
| > Computing used to be constrained as well. I love this story
| about the development of the Atari 2600 game Pitfall. Most of the
| game's design was a clever set of choices to get something fun
| working on the limited hardware designed to run Pong.
|
| Has anyone actually tried to play Pitfall! lately? It is, like, a
| pretty bad and un-fun game, doesn't hold up as well as pong or
| pac-man at all. I think it was impressive at the time because it
| was at the limit of what the system could do.
|
| It seems like a counter example to the thesis of the piece IMO. I
| get the idea that constraints can become part of the design and
| you get interesting ideas. But in this case, Pitfall! just does
| it's best to mitigate the constraints and becomes a worse version
| of every successor that was made after the limitations were
| cleared.
|
| > We will only have settings that fit on one screen.
|
| But, like, please don't actually remove all the setting, that's
| annoying.
| redundantly wrote:
| > Has anyone actually tried to play Pitfall! lately? ... I
| think it was impressive at the time because it was at the limit
| of what the system could do.
|
| I'd argue Solaris is, by far, much more impressive than
| pitfall.
| hifikuno wrote:
| The idea of being more creative by being limited reminds me of
| the journaling style solo TTRPG's.
|
| I like to dabble in fiction writing, but give me a blank piece of
| paper and I freeze. With the journaling solo TTRPG's you are
| essentially given a list of prompts which are quite often set in
| a predefined world. Somehow by being forced to write a story with
| these prompts I can write so much more and far quicker then I
| could by staring at my own piece of paper.
| akira2501 wrote:
| I've always felt that engineering can best be described as "the
| art of compromise." The more you understand and embody this the
| more success your engineering projects will have.
|
| This is very easy to achieve in "physical" engineering
| disciplines. It's remained an elusive idea in software
| engineering for whatever reasons.
| diffxx wrote:
| Reasonable general advice. It's important though to evaluate the
| quality of the constraints we submit to. There is both incredible
| freedom and oppression in constraint. Hopefully the constraints
| you choose push in the former direction.
| htk wrote:
| Small gossip - Eric Normand is Mark Normand's brother (stand-up
| comedian).
| throwanem wrote:
| "The system gets the software it deserves" is a true statement,
| in a beautifully concise formulation.
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