[HN Gopher] Microsoft Recall should make you consider Linux
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Microsoft Recall should make you consider Linux
        
       Author : cdme
       Score  : 66 points
       Date   : 2024-06-05 22:05 UTC (57 minutes ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (creativegood.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (creativegood.com)
        
       | micw wrote:
       | I guess if you not considered linux after windows 10 and windows
       | 11, recall also won't make you consider linux.
        
         | mey wrote:
         | Annoying popups to enable OneDrive are bad but not catastrophic
         | compared to the functionality Windows provides. This feels like
         | it is.
        
           | WarOnPrivacy wrote:
           | > Annoying popups to enable OneDrive are bad but not
           | catastrophic
           | 
           | To be fair, it really is scores and scores of jabs to avoid
           | in Windows - with more added bi-weekly. Today I had to
           | counter (for many users)
           | 
           | 1) the orange notify dot (start menu->user) trying to lure
           | users into a non-consensual Microsoft account setup and
           | 
           | 2) the clickable suggestions on the lock screen, carefully
           | positioned in the click-space where the password box will be.
           | 
           | It's like MS found a copy of _Creepy Uncle For Dummies_ and
           | hovered for hours over every page.
        
         | koolba wrote:
         | At some point the frog _does_ jump out of the pot.
        
         | qwertox wrote:
         | I know that I'm going to move away. I just don't know if to
         | MacOS or Linux. I'll wait until the M4 Mac Studio is released
         | and then decide.
        
           | jakogut wrote:
           | Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
           | 
           | At a certain point it becomes apparent that proprietary
           | operating system vendors don't have your best interest at
           | heart, and the only winning move is software freedom.
        
       | christkv wrote:
       | I had exactly this conversation with a friend of mine today
       | looking at getting a one of the new windows arm laptops. I can't
       | see this features not ending up in tears down the road.
        
         | JohnFen wrote:
         | If/when my Windows-using friends move to 11 on a machine that
         | meets the hardware requirements for Recall, I will make sure
         | they know how to turn it off and strongly encourage them to do
         | so.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | Are you going to constantly remind them to check that is
           | still off after the first time they turn it off. This is
           | exactly the kind of setting that I would expect to get reset
           | after any/all updates
        
       | dgunay wrote:
       | I'm just hoping that Linux support on the new Snapdragon ARM
       | laptops is good. I've already completely abandoned Windows but
       | I'm holding out on getting a new laptop because I would prefer
       | not to run MacOS.
        
         | dheera wrote:
         | I really want Framework to come out with an Linux-supporting
         | ARM motherboard that has 24 hours of battery life
        
         | Thegn wrote:
         | https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-...
         | 
         | I know someone who works for Qualcomm, he says they are taking
         | Linux support very seriously.
        
       | t0mas88 wrote:
       | Windows 10 made me buy a mac... After many years of alternating
       | between Windows and Linux, the lazy "drivers just work"
       | alternative without all the Microsoft bloat is a Mac.
       | 
       | Linux is great, love it on the server, but it's never a "just
       | works" experience on any modern laptop type hardware.
        
         | acidburnNSA wrote:
         | Drivers seem to just work in Linux now too these days!
        
           | shric wrote:
           | Tell that to anyone wanting a performant Wayland experience
           | with an Nvidia GPU and Sway while maintaining secure boot.
           | 
           | It's doable, but it doesn't "just work".
        
             | talldayo wrote:
             | Should work soon; 555-series drivers are doing great on
             | GNOME and KDE both in my testing.
             | 
             | But yes; Nvidia has been the sore thumb of Wayland and
             | Linux adoption for almost a decade now. It's interesting to
             | see the tides finally start turning!
        
           | t0mas88 wrote:
           | Does a high dpi screen, WiFi 6 and hibernate all work out of
           | the box these days and keep working for a few years? Because
           | I still see coworkers with issues in those areas even in
           | 2024, while a simple macbook air does all of those no
           | questions asked. Maybe they're not doing it right, but it
           | looks close to my experience up to a few years ago.
        
           | dgunay wrote:
           | It's hit or miss. Some laptops work flawlessly, others do
           | not. And then there's the gamut of features that not many
           | people use, but maybe it's critical to your use case (like a
           | mixed multi-monitor setup).
        
           | TylerE wrote:
           | For the most boring consumer stuff maybe, but like any audio
           | hardware that ain't totally mainstream is not good.
        
         | speed_spread wrote:
         | I would happily pay 15$/month to get a maintained Linux distro
         | that "just works" on my machine without the Mac
         | bloat/perkiness/weknowbetterthanyoudo. Many distros get _so_
         | close, but there's always an extra setup step to get basic
         | things right. Machines-specific drivers, etc.
        
       | al_borland wrote:
       | I bought a cheap mini pc a while back that shipped with Windows
       | 11. I ultimately planned to use Linux, but kept the Windows
       | install around "just in case" and went for a dual boot. In case
       | of what? I have no idea, I haven't had Windows in my house in
       | many years. I think I didn't want to give up the license, and
       | when I looked around, I couldn't find an easy way to save it.
       | 
       | I saw recall about the same time as I was thinking of using the
       | mini pc for something else. Seeing what Windows had planned, and
       | seeing Copilot shoehorned into my taskbar after a Windows update
       | was enough. I blew away the install and only have Linux running
       | now.
        
         | omgwtfusb wrote:
         | in theory, if it has been activated once on that machine it
         | should install without a product key and activate based on
         | hardware identifiers, so should be fine to nuke the partition
        
       | observationist wrote:
       | A company floating this 20 years ago would have been laughed into
       | oblivion. Stuff like this is a nightmare; it's terrifying that
       | Microsoft just trots it out like they have, as if there's
       | absolutely nothing wrong or concerning at all.
        
       | oakpond wrote:
       | A problem with AI I don't hear anybody really talking about is
       | how it is creating a massive incentive to start gathering more
       | and more personal information. More and more training data will
       | be needed to make better and better AI products.
        
         | luyu_wu wrote:
         | If the data is ananomous (as it should in all telemetry), this
         | is less of a concern. But yeah, it's definitely concerning to
         | see more incentive for data collection beyond ad targeting.
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | Andrej Karpathy:
         | https://twitter.com/karpathy/status/1797313173449764933
         | 
         | > Turns out that LLMs learn a lot better and faster from
         | educational content as well. This is partly because the average
         | Common Crawl article (internet pages) is not of very high value
         | and distracts the training, packing in too much irrelevant
         | information. The average webpage on the internet is so random
         | and terrible it's not even clear how prior LLMs learn anything
         | at all.
         | 
         | People keep assuming that AI companies want to pipe any old
         | junk into their models, but I'm increasingly convinced that
         | this isn't true.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | Setting aside the copyright issues--just like the AI
           | companies already have--it would be interesting to train a
           | model only on text books of all ages. Would it be able to
           | tell the edits/revisions/versions that have been made over
           | time and categorize them from new learning vs changes in
           | political winds?
        
           | amlib wrote:
           | And all the drivel that google's own search AI has been
           | spewing comes from where? Or the incredible breadth of, often
           | wrong, knowledge that ChatGPT can spew out in seconds, where
           | does that comes from?
           | 
           | Maybe at some point they will try to create their own, very
           | limited, "knowledge base" but then those AI assistants cease
           | to be a jack of all trades, while still being masters of
           | nothing.
        
       | mondomondo wrote:
       | It's funny people think that they have a choice about using MS
       | products.
        
       | doublerabbit wrote:
       | Linux isn't suitable for the non-tech user, and it will never be.
       | Linux will never reach the peak that Windows has. It's just too
       | clunky.
       | 
       | Those willing to seek something different will embrace but if I
       | gave my mother a computer with Linux installed, I'd never not be
       | tech support.
       | 
       | And my mother is technology oriented. Her first computer was a
       | Wang Labs machine back from the 80's. She can create her own
       | website, operate photoshop and she even built her own system.
       | She's 73.
       | 
       | Recall just doesn't matter to those out of the geek sector. As
       | with privacy for that matter. "I got nothing to hide"
        
         | luyu_wu wrote:
         | This comment seems unnecessarily brutal and reads like it is
         | written by someone who knows nothing about Linux. If anything,
         | keep your mind open and never say never.
        
           | doublerabbit wrote:
           | I'm a Unix admin. I've used Linux for over 15 years ever
           | since the age of 13, where a dutch hacker gave me a box
           | debian. Kernel 2x was my first setup.
           | 
           | Icepack Linux:
           | 
           | https://distrowatch.com/table-
           | mobile.php?distribution=icepac...
           | 
           | Was my first ever OS.
           | 
           | When Matrox S3 drivers were something you needed to modify
           | yourself and Xorg was XFree86.
           | 
           | If I was to gloat. Sadly my open mind has become a cynical
           | one a long time ago.
        
             | Ao7bei3s wrote:
             | You experience as a _Unix_ admin may be working against
             | you. What do you know about modern, end-user desktop
             | _Linux_?
             | 
             | I don't you personally, of course, but I would not be
             | surprised if a person with that self-description was
             | "skeptical" of systemd, Wayland, PulseAudio, GNOME,
             | graphical file managers and Chrome, and would never use
             | Pop!_OS. But that is the go-to, works-by-default, end user
             | friendly stack.
             | 
             | Also, it is important to make a fair comparison. Windows
             | and Mac are clunky too, and regular users deal with it and
             | mostly forget about it instead of feeding into the .
             | 
             | To take a few Mac examples (I have a multi page list): my
             | Mac reliably overheated and slowed if charging from the
             | left side USB ports (right side ports are ok), I couldn't
             | get my brand name document scanner to work in Mac (even
             | with paid software), my wireless mouse's back/forward
             | buttons didn't work (until I installed a tool I found on
             | Github), and text is blurry on an external monitor (none of
             | the obscure copy/pasteable commands found on the internet
             | fixed it). Windows forums are full of helpless "my game
             | crashes" problems and useless "update your Nvidia drivers"
             | and "reboot your router" advice.
        
           | okanat wrote:
           | I used Linux as my primary OS for 15 years and currently earn
           | money from maintaining an internal distro that is compiled
           | from scratch. I agree with the commenter 100%.
        
         | bibliotekka wrote:
         | Your mom sounds cool.
        
         | 29athrowaway wrote:
         | Some people cherry pick something that's hard to do on Linux
         | and then jump to the conclusion that Linux is consistently hard
         | to use. It is not.
         | 
         | Windows reached its peak through deals where it comes
         | preinstalled.
         | 
         | Windows is bloated and OEM manufacturers add even more bloat to
         | it. The result is sluggish machines that are a complete waste
         | of potential.
         | 
         | Forced updates, ads and now outright spying makes Windows the
         | inferior choice. Having 3 extra FPS in some dumb game is not
         | worth your privacy.
        
           | doublerabbit wrote:
           | Right, and for a gamer they may. But the average gamer is now
           | more console than PC.
           | 
           | As a legacy gamer when of the age 20, I didn't care about the
           | crap that Microsoft pushed upon. I just downloaded some rogue
           | Powershell script, probably infecting myself with a trojan
           | and just played games.
           | 
           | Looking at porn after hours. People just don't care.
        
         | k310 wrote:
         | My brother, the least tech-oriented person you can imagine, got
         | tired of windows updates breaking his drivers and ended up with
         | a linux system sold by and supported by Dell. I get zero calls
         | for help.
         | 
         | Other than browsing, he uses Libre Office for random documents
         | and a photo management app I forgot. I take his experience as a
         | very positive sign for linux.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | I was with up until your last graph.
         | 
         | Just because people are not aware that Recall exists and is
         | actively collecting data without their knowing does not mean it
         | doesn't matter. The people that believe it doesn't matter is
         | precisely why these companies get away with what they do.
        
           | doublerabbit wrote:
           | I'm not saying it doesn't matter; stereotyping here, you've
           | got two groups.
           | 
           | Those who know about it, and don't care and those who don't
           | know but do care.
           | 
           | Those who do live in the world of part time computer usage.
           | They check their facebook, shop amazon, grocery shop. But are
           | the "I've got nothing to hide, so what does it matter"
           | category.
           | 
           | And those who are concerned for it are unable to embrace the
           | difference. As like teaching an old dog new tricks. By all
           | means they can, and they want to change. The learning curve
           | is however too steep.
           | 
           | What they have learnt is what they can handle. They don't the
           | same time to learn as the younger audience does. My mother
           | wants the internet to look up patterns of leaves so she can
           | lino print not wanting to diagnose why systemd hangs at night
           | when she turns off her computer.
           | 
           | If you take an existing install of Linux
           | 
           | First of all, who is the one going to give them a USB key and
           | let them install the OS? Burning an ISO is tricky enough for
           | anyone. Google usb iso burner and you get swamped by download
           | promiscuous download sites. My father doesn't know about
           | Rufus, my mother doesn't know about DD.
           | 
           | And this is where Windows and OSX leaps ahead. They come pre-
           | installed, press the power button and your good to go.
           | 
           | Back to Linux you then have to run some chonky installer.
           | Ubuntu's installer is astrocious in requiring to be connected
           | to the internet. You then have to hope that the drivers work.
           | 
           | Compatibility is better than how it used to be but with OEM
           | computers it can be easily sabotaged by the vendor and then
           | on top of that the decision of the Window Manager and hope
           | they like.
           | 
           | It's not an easy change.
        
       | delduca wrote:
       | I have migrated my gaming machine to Linux, and it have been
       | great!
       | 
       | The reason was the introduction of copilot, ads and other
       | shenanigans.
        
         | illusive4080 wrote:
         | ...how can you effectively game on Linux? Can you use Steam in
         | home streaming too? I'd love to ditch windows
        
           | Danny_Dan4 wrote:
           | TL;DR, Steam's Proton compatibility layer. 90% of steam games
           | work out of the box on it, with the biggest exceptions that
           | don't work being due to anti-cheats explicitly preventing the
           | game from running in something like proton/wine. You can
           | thank the steam deck for bringing this level of
           | functionality, as it's basically a Linux box with -actually
           | reasonable defaults-.
        
           | delduca wrote:
           | Through the Proton. Yes. You can streaming to any steam
           | receiver/app :-)
        
       | aceazzameen wrote:
       | I'm all for people switching to Linux from Windows. But doesn't
       | Recall only work on Microsoft Copilot+ PCs? I'm assuming anyone
       | on a normal PC doesn't have to worry about Recall. But I could be
       | completely wrong.
        
         | hhh wrote:
         | Yes, for now.
        
         | mhh__ wrote:
         | One day an update will turn it on everywhere. Possibly by
         | accident.
        
         | firtoz wrote:
         | You can see it as a testbed.
         | 
         | Now it's those machines only, and opt-out.
         | 
         | Eventually more and more machines will come with the necessary
         | chips.
         | 
         | And it will be more of an effort to opt out. Then only
         | professional versions will be able to opt out, through more and
         | more complicated pathways. Eventually it'll just be part of the
         | OS.
         | 
         | Meanwhile they'll find ways to sell the side effects of the
         | functionality to other organisations, for example to monitor
         | employees etc, to begin with. Then to governments, why not.
        
           | kevinh wrote:
           | Why should I switch now and not at point 3 or 4 in that flow
           | if your hypothetical ever comes to pass?
        
             | firtoz wrote:
             | Because it becomes more and more normalised and you will be
             | less likely to be creeped out by it because "everyone has
             | it so it's k"
        
             | echohack5 wrote:
             | Death by a thousand cuts. Microsoft Recall in a vacuum
             | isn't the issue, but rather a decade of
             | 
             | - Forced Cortana (oops no let's shut that down) - Forced OS
             | Updates (oops your computer doesn't have the requirements)
             | - Ads in your start menu - "Yes" and "maybe later"
             | interactions everywhere - Edge force defaulting itself on
             | occasion - Literally needing configuration management to
             | run powershell on a daily cadence because settings might
             | not get respected - 5 Layers of failed UI frameworks duct
             | taped together
             | 
             | Basically Windows is becoming such a bear to wrangle that
             | you might as well use Linux and save yourself the pain and
             | $100 per computer.
        
       | whalesalad wrote:
       | I jumped to a Debian 12 based workstation about a year ago and
       | haven't looked back. It's been a rock solid workhorse and KDE is
       | quite nice these days.
        
       | Aurornis wrote:
       | These articles are always weird because they ignore the most
       | likely next steps for people who don't want Recall:
       | 
       | 1. Don't turn recall on
       | 
       | 2. Switch to Mac
       | 
       | Jumping straight to the Linux Desktop deep end after using
       | Windows for years is an unlikely change path for most. These
       | arguments ignore the fact that most Windows users have a lot of
       | Windows-specific apps that they use, such as games.
       | 
       | I think the real audience for these articles isn't Windows users
       | at all. It's for Linux users to pay themselves on the back for
       | not using Windows.
        
         | zeta0134 wrote:
         | Speak for yourself I suppose. I can hop between Linux (KDE,
         | Gnome, whatever) and Windows and still feel like my muscle
         | memory for OS interactions and application shortcuts still
         | works. There are minor differences, but things like copy and
         | paste still work properly.
         | 
         | When I try to use a Mac, everything is just ... different. CMD
         | instead of Ctrl, buttons on the other side of windows,
         | inconsistent maximize logic between programs, whatever Finder
         | is supposed to be doing with folder navigation. It's certainly
         | learnable with effort, and I can move around the OS competently
         | now with some practice, but it's just unpleasant enough that
         | I'd rather not use it as my daily driver.
        
         | WarOnPrivacy wrote:
         | > Switch to Mac
         | 
         | Windows desktop users are all over the planet. Only a small
         | percent of them could ever afford this.
        
           | timothyduong wrote:
           | I don't think majority really care about their 'privacy' and
           | would not switch in the first place due to Recall.
        
         | frapaconi wrote:
         | Not sure if you pay attention to how Microsoft operates (think
         | IE/Edge) but they'll accidentally-on-purpose toggle that ON
         | with a magical Windows Update.
        
         | tjoff wrote:
         | Windows for all it's faults is a very open ecosystem, in
         | contrast Macs aren't that appealing. Especially if you aren't
         | running iphones and ipads etc.
         | 
         | I do agree that Recall isn't _the_ reason to switch though. The
         | abuse Microsoft has put their users through the last few years
         | has been unimaginable, to the point where switching to
         | _anything_ will feel liberating. Even Linux desktop.
        
         | digging wrote:
         | > such as games
         | 
         | This is kind of an outdated argument and nearly a solved
         | problem - the majority of Steam's library can be run near-
         | effortlessly on Linux today. I'd expect a large portion of
         | Windows PC gamers to be aware of that, too, at least in the US.
         | I don't really know anyone who's tied to any Windows-specific
         | apps that aren't games, either.
        
           | an-unknown wrote:
           | Games are the easier part. There are a few examples of
           | software which is only available for Windows and Mac or even
           | Windows only, like professional audio software or various CAD
           | tools. If you need one of those, you can't really avoid
           | Windows / Mac and usually there is no proper replacement for
           | such software that works on Linux. Of course you can have a
           | dedicated Windows or Mac machine just for those programs, but
           | that's still not ideal.
        
         | an-unknown wrote:
         | > [...] Windows-specific apps that they use, such as games.
         | 
         | As if many Windows games don't work on Linux via proton, to the
         | point that Valve's Steam Deck runs on Linux and is "good
         | enough" most of the time. Compatibility purely depends on the
         | game and more often than not incompatibilities are caused by
         | anti-cheat mechanisms.
         | 
         | And about jumping to Linux: we had Windows computers in my
         | family, originally with Windows 7, then upgraded to Windows
         | 8.1, and once 8.1 was EOL, they were reinstalled with Linux
         | (KDE as desktop environment). Since these computers were mainly
         | used for email, web browsing, and some basic "office
         | activities" like writing a simple document occasionally, there
         | was exactly no issue with it. KDE itself is also similar enough
         | to a Windows desktop that it wasn't hard for anyone to learn
         | the few relevant things that are different. I'd be quite
         | surprised if this was different for the majority of current
         | Windows users.
        
           | unpopularopp wrote:
           | >and more often than not incompatibilities are caused by
           | anti-cheat mechanisms
           | 
           | But those multiplayer online games are the most popular games
           | on the planet. It's another topic of discussion but people
           | want to play them
        
         | nazgulsenpai wrote:
         | I don't think most people will buy new hardware that Mac
         | requires if they can just boot from a USB on their current
         | PC...
        
         | amlib wrote:
         | > Jumping straight to the Linux Desktop deep end after using
         | Windows for years is an unlikely change path for most. These
         | arguments ignore the fact that most Windows users have a lot of
         | Windows-specific apps that they use, such as games.
         | 
         | I think nowadays you would have a much worse experience
         | switching from windows to mac, as you said, the user wants
         | their apps and games to carry over, but you are actually going
         | to have a much better time getting those to carry over to
         | linux. Specially regarding games, just the fact that Steam runs
         | almost any Windows game effortlessly on linux is a big deal.
         | Meanwhile, Apple has made sure to burn all the bridges they
         | could with game developers and game compatibility in the last
         | decade or so.
        
       | triyambakam wrote:
       | Well, I'm a Linux user of 20 years, but always used a work
       | provided MacBook. However I just bought my own personal MacBook
       | and it feels bittersweet. I'm actually really loving it but
       | feeling guilty about it, as if I've sold out. I'm enjoying
       | everything just working and it is making me reconsider my
       | philosophy on software. I even bought a few paid macOS apps. It
       | feels comfortable.
        
         | giancarlostoro wrote:
         | You can always keep a Linux desktop / server around. I have all
         | three major OS' and will likely never buy another Windows
         | device moving forward. Once my Surface Book 2 cannot update
         | anymore I will retire Windows from my life outside of employers
         | providing me with Windows laptops / workstations.
        
         | tylerflick wrote:
         | I don't think it's selling out. I think it's just using the
         | best available tool(s) for the job. Inverse point, I have used
         | Mac Mini's as dedicated servers and there is much lacking in
         | the experience compared to a headless Linux box.
        
           | triyambakam wrote:
           | Yeah actually, one of my reasons was that the MacBook is
           | physically a really nice machine. The battery life is so
           | good, the screen, the trackpad... It feels great to dev on
           | it.
        
       | htk wrote:
       | The pile of dark patterns in Windows 11 pisses me off a lot more
       | than Recall. Recall is easy to disable, but the rest of crap in
       | Windows 11 is a constant game of cat and mouse. No respect for
       | the user/client at all.
        
       | nelox wrote:
       | He meant to say Unix ;)
        
       | cbsks wrote:
       | I find it interesting that if a random person had made a program
       | the takes screenshots of their desktop periodically, does OCR,
       | and locally trains an LLM on the output, it would have been a
       | super cool project that nobody would have an issue with. It sucks
       | that we are at the point where we can't trust large tech
       | companies to do the right thing.
        
         | bell-cot wrote:
         | When do you feel that we _could_ trust large tech companies to
         | do the right thing?
        
       | unpopularopp wrote:
       | If only could someone switch to Linux! But there is no Linux.
       | There is Debian, Fedora, Manjaro, Gnome, KDE, Sway, apt, yum, dnf
       | etc. Especially when something is broken and you want to fix it
       | that's the biggest hurdle as a new Linux user. Searching for
       | forums, "how do I do X on Linux?" Oh I mean not Linux but Ubuntu.
       | But MATE or LXQT? etc. It's a bottomless pit.
       | 
       | This fragmentation is biggest barrier against the wide adaptation
       | of Linux. I mean Debian and Ubuntu and Arch and openSUSE and
       | Gentoo and.
       | 
       | I see Linux as an idea. Or more like an umbrella of ideas that
       | several OSes share. Which sounds good on paper but not enough for
       | end users and for the 99.99% doesn't make any difference. At all.
       | 
       | The only thing I personally I recommend to friends who switch to
       | Linux is to use an immutable distro because those are the most
       | breakage resistant ones. Fedora Kinoite or Silverblue are nice.
       | But then we will have Ubuntu Core Desktop soon as well. And other
       | distros. So the wheel of fragmentation rolls forward.
        
         | 29athrowaway wrote:
         | If you could only go to the supermarket to buy water. There's
         | Great Value Spring Water and Great Value Purified Water. And
         | Fiji water, and Dasani, etc. It's a bottomless pit. Having to
         | choose between these similar products makes it impossible for
         | me to buy water... said noone ever.
         | 
         | The problem is approaching these decisions as if there were
         | final and irreversible decisions from which one answer is right
         | and the other one is wrong followed by eternal doom. That's not
         | the situation at all. Most of these decisions are similar and
         | you can change your mind at any time.
        
           | nessguy wrote:
           | Water isn't a great example, but decision paralysis at stores
           | from too many options is a thing.
        
           | okanat wrote:
           | You make a false assumption that all Linux things are
           | equivalent and provide a good baseline feature set. They are
           | not equivalent, each one misses something that Windows
           | provides out of the box to an extent.
           | 
           | Choosing a Linux distro / DE / whatever is not going a
           | supermarket and choosing a bottle of water. It is choosing a
           | bottling factory next to a sewer or bottled distilled water.
        
         | digging wrote:
         | I feel like Mint + Cinnamon is such an easy switch from
         | Windows, comparatively, and that Linux users should be more
         | comfortable recommending it to newbies. For people who don't
         | know what they're doing with Linux/unix at all, there's no
         | point in even saying "you have all these distros, pick the one
         | you like!" when they're mostly too advanced. It should be,
         | "Pick Mint. If you like it, you can change later and start
         | working on something more complex."
         | 
         | Now, I am sure there will be not a few disagreements that Mint
         | should be the canonical beginner's choice. Honestly, fine, if
         | there's a distro even more dead-simple it could be that, but
         | bike-shedding won't help. We don't need to find the best distro
         | for each user, we just need to give them a safe and comfortable
         | starting point.
        
       | okanat wrote:
       | Here is the thing. MS Windows has no alternative. There is no
       | other OS that: - is primarily user friendly (no terminal use,
       | good accessibility support, well known patterns, well made paid
       | human translation) - has drivers working out of the box with
       | every single hardware - has long term software support - has long
       | term hardware support - has a healthy closed-source specialized
       | software ecosystem - has good developer support - has not perfect
       | but reasonably future proof API - good interoperability with
       | majority of the other software
       | 
       | Once you step out of programming or hobbyist use it is 90%
       | Windows for the use cases one uses a full fledged computer. Yes
       | you can replace many things with a tablet or a smartphone.
       | 
       | You can't replace a PC with a tablet for accounting, customer
       | management, CAD, printing, publishing, manufacturing, simulation,
       | advanced reporting, large document processing, centrally
       | controlled IT and many other things.
       | 
       | The professional grade software you do those built on Windows,
       | Office and Active Directory. They trust the backwards
       | compatibility and wide range of API and integration Windows
       | ecosystem provides.
       | 
       | People don't use computers because they like them. They use them
       | because they do work for their goals.
       | 
       | Even for nonprofessional use case Windows still has the best
       | hardware support. For example you cannot use old low DPI monitors
       | with Macs anymore; the text is unreadable. Certain audio
       | workstations doesn't work with ARM chips.
        
         | 29athrowaway wrote:
         | > You can't replace a PC with a tablet for accounting, customer
         | management, CAD, printing, publishing, manufacturing,
         | simulation, advanced reporting, large document processing,
         | centrally controlled IT and many other things
         | 
         | For each one of those examples there's already a superior Linux
         | based choice.
        
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