[HN Gopher] Armor from Mycenaean Greece turns out to have been e...
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Armor from Mycenaean Greece turns out to have been effective
Author : thepuppet33r
Score : 107 points
Date : 2024-05-30 12:34 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| submission linking to actual paper:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40527844
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| 170 fucking ad partners.
|
| Jesus fucking Christ.
| HeckFeck wrote:
| Like the loaves and the fishes, they multiply.
| legitster wrote:
| > "Such suits of armor were recorded in palace archives--in the
| equipment lists of those complete or needing repair. This
| indicates they were supplied at the expense of palatial centers,"
| says Flouris. They were bloody expensive and thus financed,
| maintained, stored, and issued during emergencies by the state.
| Mycenaean palatial centers disappeared around 1200 BCE, and the
| supplies of Dendra-type armor disappeared with them.
|
| So... it sounds like the armor was kind of ceremonial in a way.
| Even if it was functional it didn't sound very practical - it
| only existed as a projection of force and wealth in defensive
| situations.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| You could say the same thing about intercepter aircraft and
| it's a real stretch to call those ceremonial.
| peterarmstrong wrote:
| Hey, in Canada the newest model will be! Next year we'll
| have, what, four F-35s? We'd almost be better off making a
| bunch of that bronze armour and the cool hats...
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| >> His team assumed the Trojan War happened
|
| Stop there and try to prove that, first.
| cannonpr wrote:
| So literally ? Hard to, however there are many records of
| continuous invasions of Persia by Greeks of the era that are
| well substantiated and many torched cities that were rebuilt
| frequently. It might be more pertinent to say which events of
| over 20-30 major campaigns inspired the texts of the Iliad.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > there are many records of continuous invasions of Persia by
| Greeks of the era that are well substantiated
|
| Persia won't come into existence for at least 600 years if
| "the era" is Mycenaean Greece.
|
| If you're talking about the region of the Persian homeland,
| there are zero records of invasions by Greeks of the era.
| It's on the other side of Mesopotamia from them. Troy is
| located in Anatolia both according to classical tradition and
| modern belief.
|
| The best currently known evidence for the Trojan War is stuff
| like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawagalawa_letter
| Archelaos wrote:
| From the actual paper:
|
| "Our hypothetical date for the Trojan War (1300-1200 BC) was
| needed to enable estimates of the environmental conditions
| (temperature, day-night cycle, etc.) but should not be
| considered as a contribution to the continuing discussions
| about the date of the War. Moreover, the Trojan War cannot be
| taken as a historical event, at least in the form described in
| the Homeric epics [...]. There is no way to know whether it
| reflects a single event or a period of turmoil that was
| triggered during an alleged migration from Greece to the
| eastern Aegean, a narrative that has been also put into
| question [...]"
|
| Source:
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
| smegger001 wrote:
| well we did find the city.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
|
| also there are burned remain, anti-chariot defensive works, and
| bronze arrow heads radio carbon dated to the right era.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy#Korfmann
| jvanderbot wrote:
| > The 13 marines who volunteered were trained in historical
| combat, fitted with sensors that monitored their performance, and
| fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat,
| olives, bread, water, wine, and other Bronze Age culinary
| delicacies. And then they had a go at it.
|
| This is science at its best.
|
| > During those 11 hours, a typical warrior in Homeric tales would
| go through 31 one-versus-one duels, 10 encounters with the enemy
| on a chariot, two chariot-versus-chariot engagements, and one
| chariot-versus-warrior-on-ship encounter (a ranged battle where
| the warrior defended beached ships from charging chariots).
| jonathankoren wrote:
| The parallels with "European plate armor was too bulky to be used
| and knights couldn't stand up when they fell", shouldn't be lost
| on anyone. It's a common belief handed down over the years, but
| it's complete bollocks. We know it is, because back in the 60s or
| 70s someone had the idea of actually putting the armor on, run
| around in it, and even get knocked down and stand up in it. There
| is like a BBC film showing this or something.
|
| It's kinda weird that people keep dismissing the armor of the
| past as completely impractical, even though the people in the
| past keep saying or implying that this is exact what they wore
| into battle.
| surfingdino wrote:
| It was difficult to mount a horse while wearing heavy armour
| though and I think that's how the rumour originated.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| There are quite a few YouTube videos showing how full plate is
| worn and how much range of motion you'd have.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| There are more recently made videos, I believe, demonstrating
| the same thing:
|
| - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc
|
| - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
| stanford_labrat wrote:
| imagine being a medieval peasant conscript and seeing that
| guy from the first few seconds of the first video charging at
| you, knowing full well he's from the warrior class and
| trained his entire life for the job of fighting.
|
| terrifying...
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| I remember reading somewhere that peasants who killed an
| enemy night would effectively be treated as war criminals.
| So you'd be fucked no matter what you do.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| The modern equivalent would be seeing an MRAP or an APC
| rolling down the street.
|
| The sci-fi version would be seeing a space marine.
| cwmma wrote:
| Some of this has to do with jousting armor being some of the
| best preserved sets and those were extremely impractical.
| jonathankoren wrote:
| Codpieces with erect penises are a tactical.
|
| https://youtu.be/C6XqBsosHwM
| max-ibel wrote:
| "The Court Jester" movie didn't help dispel that myth ... ;)
| lumb63 wrote:
| > It took over a decade of research, elaborate numerical models,
| and 13 Greek marines fighting in it from dawn till dusk to prove
| it was surprisingly good at its job
|
| A _decade_ of research and mathematical models to determine that
| an ancient civilization wasn't just making useless armor for fun?
| jerf wrote:
| The idea that we and we alone discovered being smart, or
| _maybe_ , at best, the people in the 19th and 20th centuries
| were on to something although they are still nowhere near as
| smart as us, and everyone else in history were nasty drooling
| superstitious cretins in every way is ingrained surprisingly
| deeply into our culture, in multiple places, for multiple
| distinct reasons.
| aredox wrote:
| Ceremonial armors aren't made for fun. Should our descendents
| of the year 3000 look at the British bearskin (the tall furry
| hat of the Royal Guard) and think "of course, this was standard
| combat attire".
| adolph wrote:
| Presumably something like the mitznefet?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military)
|
| https://www.twz.com/israeli-troops-chefs-hat-helmet-
| covers-e...
| aredox wrote:
| Exactly. Archeologist from the future working from
| fragmentary sources won't be easily able to determine if
| the mitznefet is battle gear or ceremonial parure. In fact,
| they could reach the wrong conclusion by noting the
| bearskin is more widespread than the mitznefet ("if it is
| efficient battle hat, why isn't it more widely in use?").
| ysavir wrote:
| > A decade of research and mathematical models to determine
| that an ancient civilization wasn't just making useless armor
| for fun?
|
| To be fair, making armor for fun is a decent industry/hobby in
| modern times, for stuff like LARPing, movie props, etc. Who's
| to say that the armor wasn't an example of something similar in
| ancient times? Taking the time to actually put it to the test,
| in its original context, is a good effort to prove or disprove
| that.
| kadoban wrote:
| To also be fair: can't imagine these researchers weren't also
| just having a good time. Sounds a lot like they were just
| doing fancy LARPing themselves.
| lupusreal wrote:
| I love to see experimental archaeology making fools out of
| bookish academics too weak and lazy to get up from their chairs.
| A_D_E_P_T wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > _People suspected the Dendra armor was ceremonial_
|
| That's not true. I don't think that there was ever anything
| approaching a consensus that the Mycenean Greek armor in
| question, the Dendra Panopoly, was entirely ceremonial. In fact,
| I've never even seen that view expressed. Many people believed
| that it would prove practical enough for infantry fighting. The
| old counter-argument -- which even then was speculative -- was
| that the armor was intended for charioteers. See:
|
| https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/encased-bronze...
|
| What's more, people have been making and sparring in reproduction
| pieces for years:
|
| https://mindhost.tumblr.com/post/141243954157/dendra-panoply...
|
| And especially:
|
| https://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm
|
| > _" Some high fidelity reconstructions have demonstrate how this
| panoply, despite the huge aspect, was enough flexible and
| comfortable to be used also during fights on foot and not, as
| sometimes argued, exclusively by warriors fighting from the
| chariots."_
| hinkley wrote:
| I wonder if this was intraoffice politics.
|
| You work with two loud, tenured professors who both believe a
| certain thing that your advisor thinks is bullshit, and your
| dissertation or post doc publications become about how Steve
| and Mark are wrong. Suck it, Steve.
| A_D_E_P_T wrote:
| That may be the case.
|
| There's also, assuredly, an element of that very recent
| controversy: "If it's not published in a peer review journal,
| it doesn't exist."
|
| Now that somebody has written up a report of people sparring
| in modern recreations of the Dendra Panopoly, and has had it
| published in a decent journal, the matter is settled. Before,
| despite dozens of people and groups doing the same exact
| thing, I suppose it wasn't!
|
| Goes to show.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Reminds me of how I just saw a paper where scientists
| proved it was safe to eat double-yolk eggs, which I do all
| the time.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| It looks imposing enough, reminds me of Stargate's aliens.
| bitwize wrote:
| There's something vaguely Doom-like about dressing modern marines
| in ancient armor and letting them fight, and I am totally here
| for it.
| doctorwho42 wrote:
| Looking at that armor, it makes WAY more sense why Homer/Greeks
| would make Achilles' weak point his heel... Dude is literally a
| bronze tank in that armor. Only way to really stop him is to take
| out a leg, and his feet are like the least armored thing about
| him.
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