[HN Gopher] Stuck at sea for years, a sailor's plight highlights...
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Stuck at sea for years, a sailor's plight highlights a surge in
ship abandonment
Author : achristmascarl
Score : 139 points
Date : 2024-05-30 13:53 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (apnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (apnews.com)
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| This is crazy. I'd think as soon as they stopped paying him he
| does not work for them, and they've abandoned the ship unmanned.
| He could claim the ship as salvage, sell it, and sue them for his
| back pay for anytime he did work.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| A ship has to be found unmanned in most cases to claim salvage.
| If it is a hazard in navigable waters and you get permission
| from the local Coast Guard (or whatever authority) you can put
| a lien on a ship that you safely remove from those waters to
| restore normal traffic.
|
| And yes, he can sue his employer. That is likely as effective
| as trying to get blood from a turnip
| hedora wrote:
| If I wanted one of these ships, what would maritime law say
| if I were to dispose of a few thousand gallons of diesel into
| its tank, and the crew decided to move it into international
| waters then abandon it?
|
| Presumably, it'd be up to the employer to recover damages
| from their former (aka my current) employees.
| michaelt wrote:
| I believe that would make you a "pirate" and the crew
| "mutineers"
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| it is complicated, but if it as a berth and paying fees to
| be stored there you likely are in the wrong. But if the
| owner stops paying berthing fees, the berth owner has a
| case against the ship owner. At this point it becomes legal
| to remove the boat by cooperating with the berth owner. A
| court is unlikely to grant you ownership of the ship
| outright however.
|
| Facts like these are what are missing from these stories.
| They always say something like "the company was going
| bankrupt" or whatever. Somehow they paid for fuel, berthing
| fees, port entry fees, docking fees and a host of other
| stuff you need to do international shipping. They quit
| paying the crew because they can get away with it.
| gopher_space wrote:
| You mentioned liens in an earlier comment, and I've been
| wondering what it would take to apply a worker's or
| mechanic's lien to general wage theft.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| it would be dependent on the country the ship is
| registered in firstly. Secondly it is based on the
| country the owning company is in. Basically as an
| employee you can go either the maritime court route or
| whatever civil court system the country has.
|
| Most ships are registered in Liberia, so good luck making
| and collecting a claim based off their law.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I don't know much about the particulars of maritime law but
| it's a venerable domain with a massive body of precedent
| and historically a very high level of routine perfidy to
| base case law around. I don't imagine this would be the
| clever loophole you're hoping it is.
| jdietrich wrote:
| As mentioned in the article, many older ships are literally
| worthless - the cost of cutting them up for scrap matches the
| value of the scrap metal.
| pavlov wrote:
| Inhuman things happen at sea.
|
| Sailors and fishermen are recruited internationally from poor
| countries, then treated like slaves. No country's law reaches
| these ships, and they're ultimately owned by corporations that
| have no reason to care.
|
| Another example:
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/chinese-fishing-fleets-in-indian-ocean...
| complaintdept wrote:
| A lot of shenanigans happen at sea. Cruise ships are registered
| in countries favorable to them so passengers have zero chance
| in court when someone gets hurt or a family member disappears
| (its happened). If you're an American for instance, you'll
| never take on a cruise ship owner in an American court, it's
| got to go through some tiny nation of the ship's home port.
| Passengers agree to this when they buy the ticket.
|
| (no I've never been on a cruise)
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Interesting how it works so much differently for
| international aviation
| throw0101d wrote:
| > _No country 's law reaches these ships_ [...]
|
| The 'flag' of the ship is the law to which it must operate (at
| least in international waters):
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_state
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_registration
|
| But a lot of popular flags are lax at employment rules--kind of
| why they're often picked. But you also have to have the
| resources for law suits, regardless of flag/registration.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I hear so many negative things about Chinese fishing fleets.
| When I was in Africa, I was shown how the chinese ships would
| be stuck in drydock because they needed repairs or fuel and no
| locals would sell to them.
|
| But the government is cozy so they are allowed to continue. In
| some cities, the land is literally sold to the Chinese
| government in exchange for funds to pad the coffers, or nominal
| "services" like removing piles of dirt on the land from mining
| activities.
|
| It's mad neo-colonialism. Instead of armies, you just buy
| leaders.
| pif wrote:
| > chinese ships would be stuck in drydock because they needed
| repairs or fuel and no locals would sell to them.
|
| Why do locals refuse business with them?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Because they're killing the locals' livelihoods via
| overfishing.
|
| https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-
| africa/2024/04/11/... (https://archive.is/0aDEg)
| jvanderbot wrote:
| TL;DR:
|
| > For the next 20 hours, on a typical day, the bleary-
| eyed crew would be hauling up fishing nets. If sharks got
| entangled they would hack off their fins, tossing the
| mutilated creatures back into the water to die. When
| dolphins were ensnared, the captain shot them, cut out
| their teeth and bartered them with passing ships in
| return for whisky.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| This bit was more what I focused on:
|
| > Illegal fishing is also harming local fishermen.
| Chinese vessels routinely fish in waters close to the
| shoreline reserved by law for small-scale local fishers.
| According to the EJF, Chinese trawlers in Mozambique
| often line their nets with a fine mesh, allowing them to
| catch smaller fish usually targeted only by locals. They
| have also been known to intimidate the local fishermen,
| ripping their nets and hounding them out of their usual
| fishing grounds. The volume of fish caught by small-scale
| fishers in Mozambique has slumped by 30% over the past 25
| years.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I've also read that they routinely turn of ATS/AIS to
| enter territorial waters undetected.
|
| Not directly a citation, but here's a supporting writeup
| of decent quality:
| https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/china-illegal-fishing-
| fleet...
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| The outlaw ocean project does a lot of reporting on the
| depravity of the Chinese fishing fleet.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Slightly OT, but the 2019 fictional movie Buoyancy deals with
| these topics and is depressing and incredible.
| maximinus_thrax wrote:
| There is an amazing book describing all of these issues and
| more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean. It was an
| eye opener for me, I had no idea what kind of awful stuff goes
| on in the maritime space
| wisemang wrote:
| The podcast is great as well (I haven't read the book).
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Also slavery in Thailand:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/21/such-brutality...
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I believe the crew of the MV Dali are still confined to the ship,
| since striking the bridge in Baltimore back in March.
| alistairSH wrote:
| The crew's status as of last week...
| https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/18/us/baltimore-bridge-dali-ship...
|
| Not as bad a situation as the main topic, but can't be easy
| either.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Does that mean they get paid overtime? /s
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| I don't understand why you can't just get the police to put
| them in a van and take them to the airport, and put them on a
| flight back to their home country or wherever they live.
| masfuerte wrote:
| In other cases I've read about the sailors are owed
| substantial back wages and they know that if they abandon the
| ship they definitely won't get paid.
| notaustinpowers wrote:
| It's most likely due to visa and immigration laws.
|
| When a vessel is docked in a port, they are able to disembark
| and operate under a special visa that lasts the duration of
| their vessel's stay, and they are required to leave with the
| vessel when it disembarks from the port. Since the vessel has
| left the port, their visas are no longer applicable and they
| would be arrested if they left the vessel.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| Which is what parent is asking: why can't they just get
| deported?
| notaustinpowers wrote:
| Because even deportation has legal hoops you have to jump
| through. If they get deported, even willingly, what
| happens when they come back to American on another
| vessel?
|
| Their special visas to disembark while at port would most
| likely not be approved if they have a big "deported" note
| on it.
|
| On top of that, a lot of these workers are kept in
| exploitative working conditions and are owed thousands of
| dollars in backpay. Leaving the vessel to be willingly
| deported effectively negates any chance of actually being
| paid and can kill your career right then and there. I
| highly doubt that's a risk any of them are willing to
| take.
| paxys wrote:
| Who is going to man the ship if that happens?
| Goronmon wrote:
| _I don 't understand why you can't just get the police to put
| them in a van and take them to the airport, and put them on a
| flight back to their home country or wherever they live._
|
| I'm not sure I want to give local police the power to put
| whoever they want on a plane to "wherever".
| krisoft wrote:
| > I'm not sure I want to give local police the power to put
| whoever they want on a plane to "wherever".
|
| I presumed that the proposal is a shorthand for "why the
| police can't offer to escort them to the airport and let
| them board an airplane to a destination of their own
| choosing". As in the police would be there to make sure
| they don't "abscond" in the country without a valid visa,
| but the seafarers can get back to their family. (if they so
| choose)
| krisoft wrote:
| Who will keep the bilge pumps of the ship running? They are
| not just flees on the back of a dog. They are keeping the
| ship working, afloat and in good condition. (as good as it
| can be, given the circumstances)
|
| I understand that the situation is less than ideal, and i
| hope they get a crew change at the end of whatever contract
| period they have. And I sure hope their wages are being paid
| correctly. The mobile phone situation is really bad too. I
| hope that got rectified since.
|
| Imagine if they haven't hit the bridge. They would be most
| probably still on the same ship doing the same job. Just the
| ship would be in some other patch of water. Would you still
| describe them as "stuck onboard" if that were the case?
| perihelions wrote:
| That's true: the entire crew is indefinitely detained due to
| the criminal investigation. They're confined to the ship, and
| US agents have confiscated all of their personal electronics.
|
| - _" The crew, made up of 20 Indians and a Sri Lankan national,
| has been unable to disembark because of visa restrictions, a
| lack of required shore passes and parallel ongoing
| investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board
| (NTSB) and FBI."_
|
| ..
|
| - _" According to Mr Messick, the crew has been left largely
| without communication with the outside world for "a couple of
| weeks" after their mobile phones were confiscated by the FBI as
| part of the investigation."_
|
| - _" They can't do any online banking. They can't pay their
| bills at home. They don't have any of their data or anyone's
| contact information, so they're really isolated right now," Mr
| Messick said. "They just can't reach out to the folks they need
| to, or even look at pictures of their children before they go
| to sleep. It's really a sad situation."_
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-69011124
| bluescrn wrote:
| Ludicrous and inhumane situation. Even prisoners get phone
| calls.
|
| Surprised they haven't made a break for shore via life rafts
| r2_pilot wrote:
| > Even prisoners get phone calls.
|
| If they're both lucky and fortunate and if the weather is
| nice and assuming there's not more than 500 people to 3
| phones. Source: dealing with it right now.
| vkou wrote:
| They've been given replacement phones and SIM cards while
| their personal electronics have been seized.
| somenameforme wrote:
| I'm not entirely understanding this. If the ships are genuinely
| abandoned, what stops the crew from making them their own and/or
| selling them? Is it simply the paperwork or what?
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| They're still paying the necessary fees to keep control of the
| ship, because otherwise local authorities or a creditor or
| whatever would seize it. They simply stopped paying the crew
| because the consequences of that are avoidable or acceptable to
| them.
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| To put it more bluntly, they're afraid of their creditors,
| because their creditors can get justice, because the justice
| system requires money to effectively use. The workers don't
| have money, so they aren't a threat.
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| They don't pay them. If you want an example look up the ship
| involved in the Beiruit explosion.
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| When you factor in liabilities the value of the ship can be
| negative. Often there are port fees that the shipper doesn't
| pay and because they're in a different country they're
| unserviceable so the port takes the crew hostage.
| vkou wrote:
| They'll be tried as mutineers and pirates.
|
| Marine law is optimized for the well-being of ship owners, not
| anyone else.
| david_allison wrote:
| FTA: Even if they did sell the ship, it often won't make the
| workers whole
|
| > Abandoned ships are sometimes so old and worn that "even the
| scrap guys lose money stripping it of anything of value," said
| Eric White, a ship inspector for the International Transport
| Workers' Federation, or ITF, a seafarers' union.
|
| > Left hanging by Teeters were the ships' crews of mostly
| Ukrainian seafarers, who suddenly had no way of sending money
| to families back home in what was now a war zone after Russia's
| invasion. In total, the 22 men were owed $130,000 covering more
| than three months, White said. If not for $22,000 in donations
| from local seafarers' charities, none of them would have made
| it off the ship and back home, according to White.
| fnordfnordfnord wrote:
| At the time of abandonment, the ship may not be seaworthy. If
| it requires more repairs or fuel than the crew can afford from
| their own resources, then they cannot move the ship.
| chiph wrote:
| Often the crew don't have visas for the country where the ship
| was abandoned. So they can't transit from the port to the
| nearest airport and then home unless Customs/Immigration agree
| to allow it.
|
| They also usually haven't been paid for that time. So they are
| motivated to stay (usually under deplorable conditions) because
| of the chance that the new owners will give them their back
| pay.
|
| Sometimes the local community will ferry food out to the crews.
| But if the ship runs out of fuel to power the generators
| they'll be without air conditioning and more importantly -
| navigation lights to show they're anchored.
|
| https://www.counton2.com/news/local-news/charleston-communit...
| mikey_p wrote:
| Not an abandonment, but somewhat similar to the Dali, there were
| 15 ships stranded in the Suez canal from 1967 to 1975. Known as
| the Yellow Fleet they had problems knowing what to do with the
| crew over that length of time.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| If a ship doesn't have insurance it should not be allowed to
| dock.
|
| It's not that complicated.
|
| When driving into Saudi Arabia in your own car, you are required
| to show proof of insurance (or can purchase travel insurance at
| the border).
| Simon_ORourke wrote:
| That will only lead to areas close enough to land, but within
| international waters where these uninsured junks will just
| anchor and wait it out.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/apr/12/a...
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| This is still arguably better. These crew aren't going to be
| paid by these irresponsible owners anyway. Let them abandon
| ship in international waters after a couple of missed
| paychecks.
| ghiculescu wrote:
| Why is that better?
| will5421 wrote:
| But would you even start a journey towards a port that
| requires insurance if you don't have it? You're not going to
| get the benefit of docking at that port (unloading the ship
| and getting paid for the cargo).
| throwup238 wrote:
| _> If a ship doesn 't have insurance it should not be allowed
| to dock._
|
| That's already the case in the vast majority of ports to pay
| for situations like the Baltimore bridge collapse, although
| most damage is a lot smaller and more pedestrian like scraping
| the dock on approach.
|
| Ports generally require protection and indemnity insurance to
| pay for damage to third parties and the port, hull and
| machinery insurance so the boat doesn't get stranded in the
| port, and wreck removal insurance to remove it if it does.
| Anyone going through the Panama or Suez canal has to have even
| more insurance to cover the extra risk of blocking a major
| global shipping channel.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| MBS can change the rules in Saudi to require insurance if he
| wants to. UAE did something similar recently.
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| What does he eat?
|
| Who provides him fresh water?
| maCDzP wrote:
| I believe there is a 99% invisible podcast episode about "Great
| bitter lake". It's worth a listen.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| This seems like a natural progression of allowing ships to be
| flagged in countries that barely even have foreign affairs
| outside of ships
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience). That seems
| like a good place to start - ports would benefit from only
| allowing docking if your ship is flagged in a country with some
| definition of seaworthiness
| ec109685 wrote:
| Saudi Arabia should tax port fees a bit and use that to send
| people like this back to their home country.
|
| Inhumane.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Saudi Arabia's leadership chopped up a reporter into pieces of
| meat. I don't think they'll be first to make such a change
| until compelled to.
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