[HN Gopher] Kino: Pro Video Camera
___________________________________________________________________
Kino: Pro Video Camera
Author : louis-paul
Score : 433 points
Date : 2024-05-29 17:06 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.lux.camera)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.lux.camera)
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Looks pretty good.
|
| We'll have to see where it goes, from here.
| phren0logy wrote:
| I didn't see it mentioned here, but is there any support for
| timecode?
| sandofsky wrote:
| Not at launch, but it's on the roadmap.
| phren0logy wrote:
| Thanks - that seems like a must-have for anyone anyone
| working with this level of tools. Glad to hear it's on the
| way. I would love to be able to use this with both external
| mics and storage, but I'm not sure how well the iPhone would
| handle both of those through a hub.
| OKThatWillDo wrote:
| Are you going to integrate the Atomos/TCS wireless system?
| Apogee does for audio in their apps, for example. And Zoom
| recorders support it. Would be nice to go with the emerging
| wireless standard for timecode.
| masto wrote:
| For a video recording app, it's an interesting marketing decision
| that there's only one video on the page. And at least on my
| computer, it doesn't play, I only hear the audio.
|
| These folks have a stellar reputation, and I'll be buying this
| app on that (and the I-was-expecting-more-digits price) alone,
| but I would have enjoyed seeing some kind of short film "shot on
| Kino". If only to see some professional work.
| tshaddox wrote:
| > but I would have enjoyed seeing some kind of short film "shot
| on Kino".
|
| Funny enough, the website for the app is
| https://www.shotwithkino.com/, but it also doesn't have feature
| any videos shot with Kino.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > These folks have a stellar reputation
|
| The name they've chosen for the app, Kino, is a bit weird to
| me. When I hear the word Kino, I immediately start to think
| about lighting as that's how people refer to lights from
| Kinoflo which gained popularity from their fluorescent lights
| in the years before LEDs took over.
| stnmtn wrote:
| I think of the internet "meme" of calling movies you like
| "Kinography", or saying that a movie you watched was "kino".
|
| Example: Movie XYZ is pure kino
| dylan604 wrote:
| I get the use of Kino, and that's why I caveated the
| statement with "weird to me" immediately followed by the
| specific reasons it is weird to me. I did not say that it
| is weird because it has nothing to do with anything. It's
| just when someone that's been in the production world and
| familiar with equipment names and brands, Kino definitely
| has a specific meaning on first hearing it.
| janfoeh wrote:
| Kino is German for "cinema" -- maybe that is the origin of
| the name?
| keiferski wrote:
| Kino is directly or extremely similar to the word for
| _cinema_ in many languages, including German, Polish, Slovak,
| Czech, Danish, Croatian, and Finnish, to name a few. The word
| _cinema_ itself is ultimately from the hard-K Greek kinema:
|
| _Borrowed from French cinema, clipping of cinematographe
| (term coined by the Lumiere brothers in the 1890s), from
| Ancient Greek kinema (kinema, "movement") + grapho (grapho,
| "write, record"). Compare German Kino ("cinema"), ultimately
| from the same Greek source._
|
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cinema#English
| sandofsky wrote:
| We definitely had more video examples planned, but production
| fell through at the 11th hour, and we decided it was important
| to ship before WWDC. So it goes.
|
| However, the advertisement in the blog post made by Sandwich
| Video was entirely shot on Kino.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Making the decisions like that for getting exposure from an
| event with a pre-release version is always a scary thing.
| Luckily, WWDC attendees will be much more understanding of
| early versions vs the public. Good luck!
| kulor wrote:
| Complete sidenote but I'm an accidental fan of Sandwich (video
| production company) and the promo video in this did not
| disappoint.
| Trung0246 wrote:
| Unfortunately iOS only.
| luuurker wrote:
| For RAW recording at least there's MotionCam Pro:
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.motioncam....
| croes wrote:
| Kino is also the german word for cinema
| andreygrehov wrote:
| It's the same meaning in German, Polish, Russian, and Slavic
| languages.
| amerine wrote:
| Great app so far. Only taken a couple test shots, but it's great
| to use. Highly recommend an iPhone 15+ for ProRes support.
| dagmx wrote:
| I'm glad the page does a call out to the Invisible CG series.
|
| I know it's a quick aside but it's important for people in the
| trade to stand by each other.
|
| On a different note, I am curious though how the page manages to
| use so much copyright content though. I always think that's a
| risky move.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > use so much copyright content though
|
| It's called fair use. They are static shots and not even close
| to the magical "8 seconds" rule. They are providing dramatic
| examples that many people are familiar with. Showing the
| before/after of something your mom shot means nothing to
| people. Showing extremely famous examples immediately lets
| people know what is possible and to what extent.
|
| I see nothing wrong with any of what was used or how it was
| used but especially why it was used.
| dagmx wrote:
| Fair use gets tricky when you intermix it like this. Though I
| must first call out that there's no actual 8 second rule.
|
| Even with fair use, it's still good form to attribute it. But
| more importantly , those images are intermixed among product
| clips/videos which can fall on the other side of fair use
| because it may give the impression that they are associated
| with the product.
|
| That can be a tight line to walk and so it's again usually
| best to specifically call out that they are there for
| illustrative purposes.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Notice the quotes around the "8 seconds" rule. It's not a
| rule, but that's what it is known as. I mainly know it from
| the audio world, but it was a common theme/trope/meme in
| radio shows about using music without royalties.
|
| Whether or not it's described in the text of copyright law,
| it is a common concept people are familiar.
| dagmx wrote:
| Nitpickiest of nits: given your intended description, the
| quotes should be around "rule" not "8 second". When
| around "rule", that implies it's not really a rule. When
| around "8 second" it implies that it's not 8 seconds
| exactly or it's what it's colloquially called, but it
| would still be a rule.
|
| Regardless, the fair use laws are very loose and tend to
| vary depending on the medium type and association with
| product.
|
| Anyway , I get what you're saying but given it's part of
| a product page, it should at the very least, call out
| that they're illustrative and not actually associated.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Do you really think that this company is implying that
| they made The Matrix or Dune? It is clearly just an
| example used to aid in the discussion of the surrounding
| text. There is no claim of "we used this software to make
| Dune". If they had, you can assume they would have put
| that out in some sort of call out in their marketing.
|
| If you were confused by the image as them trying to take
| credit, then boy, I don't know.
| dagmx wrote:
| I don't know why you default to being hostile.
|
| I'm just stating that they're intermixing it and that can
| play into whether it is fair use. I'm not saying that I
| personally am confused. I'm just saying that intermixing
| it may give people the wrong assumption if they're not
| familiar with these films. Remember, the matrix came out
| 25 years ago. There's many people who will likely never
| see it but will be working in film/cinema etc and use
| this.
|
| I'm not ascribing malice either, just that it's good form
| in the industry to delineate clearly.
|
| Maybe take it down a few notches or step away from the
| keyboard.
| dylan604 wrote:
| You are reading way more into these comments than is
| actually there. Just because someone challenges something
| you've written does not mean you are being attacked.
| There's no notches to take it down from.
| sandofsky wrote:
| On copyright, we go out of our way to generate original
| graphics for our posts, but if we do use an excerpt of other
| people's content, we keep it brief and link back to source for
| the full details.
|
| Are you referring to the shots from the Matrix and Blade
| Runner? In this case, I think we're commenting on the source
| material, which falls under fair use. I think the imagery is
| iconic enough that it feels a bit silly to say "this is from
| The Matrix," but I could be convinced otherwise.
| dagmx wrote:
| The matrix, blade runner and the Nicolas cage shot that I
| can't identify personally. I think it would still be
| reasonable to have attribution and/or also say that the
| projects in question weren't shot with Kino.
|
| Of course it's obvious that the Matrix isn't shot with Kino ,
| but I think it's still good form to caveat that it's there
| for illustrative purposes.
| artimaeis wrote:
| You're not asking, but in case anyone is curious - the
| Nicolas Cage shot is from Con Air.
| dagmx wrote:
| Ah, thank you. I haven't seen that film in a couple
| decades now.
| spdustin wrote:
| Wonder if Kino is an homage to Stargate: Universe
| kgeist wrote:
| Kino means "cinema" or "movie" in many European languages
| lelo_tp wrote:
| I don't know much about the company and never used their
| products, but this article is such a delicious read:
| https://www.lux.camera/orion-from-idea-to-launch-in-45-days/
|
| Really tells how much they care about their craft
| Yenrabbit wrote:
| Delicious is the right word, everything (post included) is
| crafted with care.
| tomw1808 wrote:
| Oh man, I wish the app was available on the iphone 15 pro too.
| I keep holding off buying that external HDMI monitor for the
| A7SIII, and that might be just the solution to keep the camera
| bag small...
| dylan604 wrote:
| "Now, it's not always possible for Kino to pick cinematic
| settings, such as when shooting in bright daylight."
|
| Since the phone's cameras are fixed aperture, you lose one leg of
| the exposure triangle. Instead, they lean heavily on the shutter
| speed as ISO is also a function of the chip. Increasing the
| shutter speed also increase the jello effect from the rolling
| shutter. Using an ND filter helps. If you find yourself without
| an ND filter but you have your sun glasses, shoot your camera
| through a lens on your sunglasses. It'll be awkward but it will
| help. Bonus points if your sunglasses are polarized. You can
| rotate your sunglasses to "dial" in the effect similar to a
| circular polarizer. I'd assume at this point that there are a
| plethora of lens filters available for cheap.
| SamBam wrote:
| > Bonus points if your sunglasses are polarized. You can rotate
| your sunglasses to "dial" in the effect similar to a circular
| polarizer.
|
| Surely that would only affect polarized light, like glare from
| reflections, no?
|
| Possibly that's all you're saying (I understand the general
| purpose of polarized lenses) but it sounded like you were
| suggesting you could make the whole scene darker -- and thus
| improve the motion blur effect -- by rotating the lens.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > but it sounded like you were suggesting you could make the
| whole scene darker
|
| Did you read over this "Bonus points if your sunglasses are
| polarized."? I'm not talking about regular polarized lenses
| in your glasses. I specifically said the world sunglasses
| multiple times. The entire point of sunglasses is to make the
| whole scene darker. I really don't know how to describe this
| any more plainly.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _it sounded like you were suggesting you could make the
| whole scene darker -- and thus improve the motion blur effect
| -- by rotating the lens._
|
| That would be true if the iPhone's lens also has
| polarization...
|
| https://www.seattleu.edu/scieng/physics/physics-
| demos/optics...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SIxEiL8ujA
| th0ma5 wrote:
| On Android there is https://www.motioncamapp.com/ which has been
| doing raw video for years.
| flakiness wrote:
| I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for the call out!
| liminalsunset wrote:
| In typical Android fashion, this app is essentially the
| mathematical inverse of the iPhone version.
|
| The UI on the iOS Kino app is beautiful, crafted, and elegant.
| The UI on MotionCam (even after the update) is functional,
| brutalist, and purely an engineering driven, unstyled Android
| 4.4 UI elements style.
|
| But MotionCam Pro gives full control, and even a RAW mode which
| wouldn't be possible on iPhone. You can even do ProRes (but it
| doesn't work very well for long unless you have a new phone
| with good cooling).
|
| For the purpose I use it for (magnifying glass/telescope, using
| S23 Ultra), it's wonderful. But I always wished that the two
| worlds of Android and iOS development styles would collide for
| a moment....
| IshKebab wrote:
| I've never done any iOS dev but I always assumed it was
| partly because the Android GUI toolkit (views, fragments
| etc.) is just _SO_ awful that it just isn 't feasible to make
| nice UIs. Certainly in the apps I've made there's absolutely
| no way I would invest time into animations, custom widgets,
| etc.
|
| Hopefully Flutter will fix that because the difference in
| usability is night and day. It's just a shame the Dart
| ecosystem is so dead.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| Is there an equivalent to Halide or Spectre (for raw still
| photos/long-exposure photos) for Android?
|
| My Thinkphone has a pretty awesome camera and native camera app
| with integrated RAW output, but these apps do often provide
| some features and polish beyond what's available in that tool.
| For example, I was just trying to take a long-exposure photo of
| the aurora (visible a couple weeks ago here in Michgan) and the
| limits on even the manual controls had ranges that limited what
| I could do. Spectre (or its equivalent) would have been awesome
| to have.
| sneak wrote:
| Insta-buy as soon as I saw the "Data not collected" privacy
| label.
|
| Thanks for not bundling spyware like everyone does in apps these
| days. I'm happy to support anyone who isn't spying on users.
|
| I don't use Halide specifically because it _does_ phone home (and
| is IAP subscriptionware cancer).
|
| Even though I shoot log and use Resolve, this might be fun for
| quick stuff without a round trip through the desktop computer.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| Just a heads up, the "privacy label" does not necessarily match
| the actual privacy policy. It's not required to match, and
| there is no accountability mechanism when it doesn't.
|
| What you want is the Privacy Policy, which links to
| https://halide.com/privacy/, which is a 404 page.
| sandofsky wrote:
| Sorry about the broken link. We're fixing it. To give a
| summary of our philosophy in the mean time: we don't want
| your data.
| sandofsky wrote:
| Hope you enjoy Kino! To clear up a few things about Halide...
|
| The only time Halide communicates with a server is when we do a
| controlled rollout of a feature, and anonymized reporting when
| a capture fails. I'd prefer we didn't need either but 1) the
| App Store model doesn't accommodate safe rollouts and 2) iPhone
| capture and photo library frameworks regularly break, and
| sometimes the only way to get a fix escalated is to have
| numbers in hand.
|
| If you don't want to subscribe to Halide, though, there is a
| one time purchase option in app.
| sneak wrote:
| The Halide one time purchase is $60, and I carry a full frame
| mirrorless (rx1) with me at all times. Also, while I
| understand your QA issue, I won't spend money on apps that
| phone home against my will, on basis of principle.
| vile_wretch wrote:
| So then it objectively isn't "IAP subscriptionware
| cancer"..
| sneak wrote:
| Halide is $3 for a month, $12 for a year, or $60 for
| perpetual. $25-30 for perpetual would be reasonable.
|
| Kino costs $10 for perpetual, for reference.
| z5h wrote:
| As a long time amateur photographer (using physical cameras and
| lenses), I have Halide (by the same company) on my iOS home
| screen for when I need to take a real phono on my iPhone. I use
| it all the time without issue. And would recommend it to any
| photographer.
|
| So I paid for Kino without hesitation. Just fired it up, set BNW
| grade, pressed record, and it immediately crashed. Tried again
| and it crashed again. Tried AGAIN and it worked... (iPhone 13
| mini, iOS 17.4.1).
|
| I have faith this will be worked out soon.
| sandofsky wrote:
| Sorry you ran into that. I distinctly remember testing the 13
| mini, due to notch layout issues, so this is unexpected. As
| soon as the crash reports come in, we'll dig into that.
|
| Unfortunately, while we had a QA person on this, and nearly 100
| beta testers, the iPhone camera APIs are a mine field. We'll
| get a fix out as soon as we have details.
| col_rad wrote:
| Same issue with iPhone 12 mini, iOS 17.4.1
| shrew wrote:
| Same phone and same OS version down to the patch number. I've
| noticed UI hangs and stutter when changing the grades, and BNW
| in particular seems to cause the biggest issues. Not yet
| experienced a crash even if I flick between grades in quick
| succession.
|
| I did also find manual focus produced odd green visual
| artefacts in the live view as you move the focus control.
|
| With that said, it's a nice UI, hopefully the bugs can be
| ironed out!
| sandofsky wrote:
| The green is focus peaking. In a future update, we plan to
| make that opt-in in the UI.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| I paid for Halide and almost immediately afterward, they
| announced a policy of locking new features made after whatever
| version you had bought unless you bought it a second time.
|
| It's the only app I've ever bought whose developer has done
| that bullshit.
|
| I won't make that mistake again.
| fragmede wrote:
| why would buying an old version entitle you to a new version?
| zamadatix wrote:
| For every couple year major versions (with decently
| advanced notice it's coming and/or a recency allowance) I
| think it's fair to charge new but for minor improvements
| over the lifecycle of a major version I think it's fair to
| want to buy everything that will come in the major version
| up front if you're making a one time purchase. Tons of
| software is this way from Sublime to Windows to ZBrush to
| tons of games. In this model a one time purchase is seen as
| an alternative to subscription rather than a desire to
| forego any future features. There is also the "in-between
| model" e.g. IntelliJ where you get the current version + a
| period of updates and you can either stay with where it
| ends at that period or pay a smaller amount for more
| updates.
|
| I'm not sure which group the Halide changes mentioned above
| fell into but just on the general topic I think it's a fair
| expectation.
| Clamchop wrote:
| "Entitled" seems like an inappropriate word here. OP isn't
| entitled to the software, and the publisher isn't entitled
| to repeat customers or the perception of being a good
| value.
| sandofsky wrote:
| It sounds like you bought Halide 1. At the time, we had
| supported Halide 1 for three years of huge feature updates
| when we launched Halide Mark II. Rather than just drop Halide
| 1, we gave everyone Mark II and a year of additional updates.
|
| The alternative would have been to just release a separate
| app called Halide 2 and stop updating Halide 1. In that case,
| version 1 would probably fall apart pretty quickly due to OS
| and camera changes year to year.
|
| I'm genuinely curious if you'd have preferred we stopped
| updating Halide 1, because we're always trying to find the
| best way to support users while keeping the light on.
| ein0p wrote:
| One time fee + good software = instant purchase from me as
| well. Subscription usually means no deal. I don't lease my
| tools.
| pseudosavant wrote:
| I'm interested in the benefits of this app for anyone who doesn't
| have an iPhone 15 Pro that takes video in Apple Log. The post
| made it seem it seem to me like an iPhone 15 Pro was required.
| icelancer wrote:
| Yeah, I am quite interested in the app but I would need this
| cleared up as I have an iPhone 13 Pro.
| dylan604 wrote:
| The ability to record in log is very important. Without log,
| you're never going to get the results as advertised on the
| box. You can attempt to grade any footage from any camera
| with any color grade software, but with a huge amount of
| limitations. When recording in a format that is not "log",
| you will have already trashed the majority of data an app
| like this needs to make those subtle adjustments. In log, the
| highlights tend to be preserved better as well as details in
| shadows have not be crushed into oblivion. If your non-log
| footage is brought in, the same knobs/buttons will be
| available, but the data it is needing has been lost and it
| just will not have the same effect. You will not be satisfied
| with "its abilities" as you are now in the "you're doing it
| wrong" with your workflow
| icelancer wrote:
| Unfortunately that's what I figured was likely to be the
| case.
| frankus wrote:
| Kind of a tangent but I'm worried that "Kodiak" is not going to
| pass the "a moron in a hurry" test
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_moron_in_a_hurry) and could get
| them in trouble. I for one read it as "Kodak" the first few
| times. Hopefully they cleared it with the owner of the trademark.
| hatthew wrote:
| The design of the Kodiak card (logo? icon? not sure if there's
| a better word) also seems like it's intentionally mildly
| reminiscent of the Kodak logo, without being close enough that
| it's obvious at first glance.
| lxhrstn wrote:
| Looks very cool - but will be curious to see how the results from
| this end up comparing to Blackmagic's excellent (and free) pro
| iOS video app
| (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagiccamera)
| dylan604 wrote:
| I don't see a way to grade the footage from within the BMD app.
| Their app seems more designed to take advantage of the
| ProRes/log captures intended to be used in Resolve Studio. This
| app allows you to do the grading on your device. So that's a
| pretty obvious difference. If you're someone using Resolve,
| you'll probably be enticed by the BMD app as it fits your
| existing workflow. If you're someone looking to stay on device
| or just don't have a computer, this gets you to a similar
| ability right there
| fassssst wrote:
| You can apply a LUT to the capture. They also have a good
| Davinci Resolve iPad app; maybe they'll make an iPhone
| version in the future.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Applying a LUT is not the same thing as color grading. It's
| simply applying a LUT. The app that was specifically linked
| to is not Resolve. It is an app tapping into the new
| features introduced with the newest model device. If you
| use the linked app to acquire footage with your phone, you
| would still need to make that data available to the iPad
| version of Resolve. Again, this app does not require that
| at all.
| caseyy wrote:
| How is color grading applied if not with LUTs? You know
| that when you do color grading with apps like Resolve, it
| is stored in memory as a LUT, right?
| dylan604 wrote:
| > How is color grading applied if not with LUTs?
|
| No absolutely not. In Resolve specifically, you have
| nodes that you apply to the video where each node allows
| for specific settings to be applied as part of the grade.
| In a true grading session, you dial in the settings for
| black levels, white levels, contrast, saturation as
| primaries. Then there's secondaries which start
| finessing. You can then draw windows/mattes to isolate a
| specific area or specific color range (think color image
| where everything is B&W except the red rose/red car/red
| dress style) to apply the grading. There's also tracking
| of those windows. There's so much more going into color
| grading than "apply LUT here". Just look at the control
| surfaces for Resolve and the number of
| knobs/buttons/rollers. Would something that just applied
| LUTs need all of that?
|
| > You know that when you do color grading with apps like
| Resolve, it is stored in memory as a LUT, right?
|
| Source? That's a very gross oversimplification of what a
| color session is like. LUTs don't do tracking. LUTs don't
| do keys. LUTs don't do mattes.
|
| You are doing colorists a disservice if you think grading
| is just LUTs.
| lukevp wrote:
| I also thought grading was just LUTs. Does kino let you
| do all of the things you mentioned directly in the app?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Might I ask why this is all you thought a grading session
| involved? Clearly, this is a touchy subject for me as I
| spent a few years as an assistant to a very talented
| colorist. The plethora of YouTube videos saying color
| correct using my amazing LUTs available when you join my
| Patreon blah blah nonsense is really sad.
|
| There are some truly amazing colorists, and then there
| are people that claim they are colorists when they just
| applied a LUT. I would be embarassed to call myself a
| colorist that way. With my experience, I still do not
| call myself a colorist. I also don't go around calling
| myself a DP because I own a camera and make pretty
| pictures, yet people go around with no real training
| calling themselves that because it's cool.
| th0ma5 wrote:
| This is all I ever hear though. It isn't (just) LUTs, a
| bunch of posturing, and then "but it is magic that I
| can't share or you wouldn't understand."
| lxhrstn wrote:
| The app is obviously targeting a different audience, but having
| bought it and recorded some test footage on it now, it has
| considerably fewer features than Blackmagic Cam for
| videography/cinematography pros - no zebras, focus peaking,
| stabilisation settings, anamorphic de-squeeze, etc - even
| commonly-expected framerates like 23.98fps / 29.97fps and
| settable aspect-ratios like 2.39:1 aren't available as far as I
| can see.
|
| Would hope to see them address these missing features in future
| updates, but at the moment there's nothing here to make me move
| away from Blackmagic for "serious" iPhone videography.
| burntwater wrote:
| I for one would love to see us drop the fractional frame
| rates (29.97, etc). They're an archaic technical relic that
| cause trouble when working with timecode. At Sphere we
| debated standardizing on 30/60/120fps but ultimately decided
| it was a battle we didn't want to fight in an already
| complicated building.
| voltaireodactyl wrote:
| FWIW, I truly hope 24fps never goes away entirely.
| Something about it is the key to making movie stars look
| like legends and regular people look like a stars, imo.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| > With AutoMotion, Kino automatically _choses_ the best exposure
| settings for cinematic motion blur.
|
| The part I've italicized above should be "chooses".
|
| Great looking app though!
| jihadjihad wrote:
| It's not the only typo, either (not a big deal, but I noticed
| it too)
|
| > For one, there are artists who _sculpts_ the contrast and
| color
|
| emphasis mine
| ValentineC wrote:
| As a former happy Halide user, I bought their previous new app
| Spectre on launch, but sadly haven't found a good chance to use
| it.
|
| (Why "former"? I switched over to Apple's Camera app for the bulk
| of my casual photography when Apple introduced Live Photos, since
| I really like the added vividness of having a video moment
| attached.)
|
| I don't do many videos, and the Camera app (along with their
| Action Mode software video stabilisation) seems to do everything
| I need it to, so I'm not sure if I would be able to use any of
| the "pro" features here at all.
| atan2 wrote:
| "one simple principle: make good products and charge money for
| them."
|
| Thank you for the one-time purchase option. It's a win already on
| today's software world.
| ertgbnm wrote:
| I give it 2 years before they have regressed to a subscription
| model.
| ashton314 wrote:
| Their other apps are much older than 2 years and still have a
| buy-once model. This company has a good track record. (There
| is a subscription for some long-running services if I'm not
| mistaken.)
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| They have been around successfully selling apps with this
| business model for a lot longer than 2 years, why do you
| think they plan on changing it?
| Kerrick wrote:
| FiLMiC Pro, another pro camera app for iPhone, also existed
| for years [0] and sold with the one-time-purchase business
| model. They're now a subscription [1] and owned by Bending
| Spoons / Evernote. (Plus, more bad news [2]...)
|
| [0]: http://web.archive.org/web/20111130073123/http://www.f
| ilmicp...
|
| [1]: https://www.cined.com/filmic-pro-is-joining-forces-
| with-bend...
|
| [2]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/3/23986187/filmic-
| staff-lai...
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| That kind of proves that one time sales can be a
| successful business model, doesn't it?
|
| They were a successful business employing 23 people after
| more than a decade on the one time sales model!
| bowsamic wrote:
| No one said it's not possible to be successful with it
| colechristensen wrote:
| What happens is you run out of new people to sell your
| niche app to (or hit a long rather thin tail) while
| continuing to provide updates for your existing userbase.
| So you either have to release arbitrary new versions from
| time to time leaving the old ones neglected and eventually
| unsupported (or with the overhead of supporting several
| versions) or you switch to a subscription model.
|
| It's happened with so many businesses.
|
| Maybe the solution here is to stop supporting _new_ phones
| with old versions. So your app works forever but if you
| upgrade your phone you have to buy the software again. It
| 's hard to find what feels fair.
| volleygman180 wrote:
| Subscription fatigue is very real today, but to your
| point, as a business you can't provide eternal updates
| (work) for free.
|
| In the old days, you'd buy a new version of Mac or
| Windows or any software that you run on it (Office,
| Parallels, etc.) when you wanted the new features each
| year.
|
| I think Apple's App Store has a lot to do with why
| everything is now subscription-based. They used to offer
| developers a smaller Apple-commission (15%) for
| subscription sales instead of the typical 30% for in-app
| purchase sales and paid-apps.
|
| This was great for businesses, but in my opinion, only
| service businesses should be subscriptions - this
| transition would help reduce subscription fatigue. Normal
| software should mostly go back to just issuing new
| versions each year (or whatever frequency), so that
| consumers re-frame the purchase cycle to something that
| feels more reasonable again.
|
| In order for this to occur, however, Apple may need to
| adjust the App Store algorithms. If you were to launch a
| new app (ex. "Kino v6"), you'd start all over again from
| day 1 with 0 app ratings and reviews, and not rank well
| on any keywords nor in the top apps charts.
|
| Some apps simply rename their app with each new version,
| but that introduces similar complexities, especially for
| users who already paid & downloaded the previous
| "version". So in a big way, the App Store de-incentivizes
| any kind of transition away from a subscription-based
| business model.
|
| The "new versions" business model vs. subscription may be
| similar cost to consumer (it wouldn't support monthly
| users), but it would allow consumers to only update when
| their _ready_ and could continue using an old app version
| (especially on older devices) as long as they 'd like. If
| a customer really likes the software, they'd likely buy
| the new version to access new features & device support
| before too long anyhow
| sunnybeetroot wrote:
| What do you mean used to take 15% commission, that has
| never stopped since the small business plan became
| available.
| RajT88 wrote:
| > Normal software should mostly go back to just issuing
| new versions each year (or whatever frequency), so that
| consumers re-frame the purchase cycle to something that
| feels more reasonable again.
|
| One way which feels fair that I have seen companies do is
| provide "Maintenance".
|
| Premium paid support offerings which also includes
| upgrades to any versions released during your contract
| duration. It's enterprisey, and maybe weird for a camera
| app (how much support could you possibly really need?).
| KoftaBob wrote:
| What about releasing new features as in-app purchases?
| This way you can make money from existing users too.
| tonetegeatinst wrote:
| Personally, even if I don't personally purchase this, I hope
| your wrong because I am strongly against subscriptions in
| most cases.
|
| I see cases where it makes sense...but I also see the need
| for development to get paid their salery, and once you have
| reached all the users you can....their is no new user
| growth....and if your just selling based off a one time fee
| then that means you got very little income except the random
| guy who might donate, but a company shouldn't rely on
| donations to keep products alive.
|
| If the thing needs updates or changes regularly say once very
| 6 months....due to changes in standard or just keeping things
| updated....this stuff costs money to keep developers paid.
|
| My crude C program I wrote that converts an input between
| celcius or Fahrenheit is not really going to change. Unless I
| want to also support data inputs other than floating point
| numbers, I don't need to update or modify anything. But other
| stuff is more complex and might change due to standards,
| advancements, and the needs of the users.
| earthnail wrote:
| The real problem is that people are afraid of paying high
| one time prices. Subscriptions allow you to lower your
| prices, which lowers the barrier of entry.
|
| On iOS, it gets even worse as there never were high prices
| to begin with. Which means that the OTP model was never
| very sustainable.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| I don't understand what people have against
| subscriptions.
|
| To me that's the fairest. First, it incentives them to
| make a good product, and keep developing it as opposed to
| just throwing it out there and then not updating.
|
| And secondly it's also fair for the customer. If I don't
| find something useful I might stop using it after a week,
| but I paid the full price, same as if I found it useful
| for years.
| tekeous wrote:
| That's what I said about Halide, before they moved it to a
| subscription model.
| ezfe wrote:
| Only for new features right?
| Jeremy0 wrote:
| You must be confusing Halide with Filmic Pro.
| klysm wrote:
| It's so much harder to sustain the business though. Obviously
| it's better for the consumer, but way harder to run
| baby wrote:
| I just looked at two pomodoro apps on the app store, one had a
| one-time purchase fee, the other had a subscription only model.
| It's a freaking pomodoro app! I can't believe I have to pay for
| that in the first place (why doesn't the countdown app of Apple
| not have a widget =.=) but a subscription? People are greedy
| af.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| If you don't mind a PWA, I like this:
|
| https://qoomon.github.io/time-timer-webapp/
| runeb wrote:
| iOS and macOS ships with Pomodoro. Open Shortcuts and you
| should see it.
| yumraj wrote:
| > People are greedy af.
|
| Personally, for smaller developers, I attribute this more to
| ignorance than malice (greed). Pricing is hard so they just
| look around and pick what they see happening around them
| without taking a moment even to think, forget about doing
| actual research.
| hiatus wrote:
| These smaller developers go through the trouble of building
| an app and getting verified for distribution on the App
| Store but don't give even a moment's thought to pricing?
| Surely the easiest option is free compared to some
| arbitrary monthly price and having to set up payments, etc.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| But why should people do apps for free?
| Zambyte wrote:
| People should be paid to do something, rather than be
| paid for something they did.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| What? I create something, and I shouldn't be able to sell
| it? What?
| yumraj wrote:
| Obviously they want to be paid.
| runako wrote:
| > People are greedy af.
|
| Putting on my Older Person hat for a moment, software from
| indie publishers used to cost in the ballpark of $40 in the
| late 1980s (that's ~$100 in 2024 dollars after adjusting for
| inflation). $100 for a single version of a single app. When
| the next point release comes out, the publisher might give
| you a discount of 50%, so it might only cost you $50. A major
| release was often required for compatibility with a new OS
| version.
|
| All the software we used back in the day? We spent
| significant money on it.
|
| Do you think apps like these pomodoro apps would sell in
| sustainable quantities if it were $100 for major releases and
| $50 for point releases? What if it were $100 to get the
| current version every time iOS did a major version upgrade?
|
| Or is it more likely that these apps would simply not exist?
|
| People say they want one-time purchases, but the small $
| subscriptions are more consumer-friendly than is immediately
| apparent. And they support a vastly more comprehensive
| software ecosystem.
| cooper_ganglia wrote:
| You could almost use this argument to convince me for a
| complex software like the Adobe products that is constantly
| getting new, major updates, but for a Pomodoro app?
| Honestly, $1 seems reasonable.
| runako wrote:
| I should have been clearer. Apps from big publishers were
| more expensive than the indies in the 1980s. And indie
| shops that were charging ~$40 ($100 in 2024 dollars) for
| their titles. This is a direct comparison to the type of
| pomodoro app mentioned in the upthread comment.
|
| The thing is, all software constantly needs new updates.
| If not platform-driven, then security, bug fixes, etc.
|
| The more niche (like a pomodoro app), the fewer users
| over which to amortize the dev costs. A lifetime fee of
| $1, sold to a huge audience of 100k paid users, will pay
| for ~1 year of a single dev in the US, perhaps 2-3 years
| of a developer in a low-cost country. And then where does
| the money come from for updates in year 4 and beyond?
|
| Subscription payments recognize the realities that a)
| development never ends for most apps that are in use and
| b) developers are not going to be free in the future just
| because the publisher only charged once.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| That doesn't seem odd to me. Pomodoro/focus apps are a
| category where people start casual, but end up developing
| very specific desires that narrow their options. Someone
| catering to that can charge a bit.
|
| Whether it's ethical for developers to cater to that kind of
| helpless behavior is another question.
| gdubs wrote:
| People are so used to the zero interest rate period of tech
| that everyone expects the pricing model of VC backed startups
| that can burn money forever and maybe figure out a business
| model at some point.
|
| Software costs time and money. People complain that they
| don't want the same uninspired corporate created junk - and
| then they balk at paying indie developers a reasonable amount
| for apps.
|
| So much work goes into this stuff! It's so tempting for indie
| devs to just take the high paying job, and then congrats - no
| more unique and interesting apps like this.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| I'm not sure what your point was. Is this in defense or
| against IaP?
|
| Most people don't balk at paying fair prices for an app,
| but the definition has drifted so far that EUR7/month
| (EUR84/year) is described as "fair" for a simple timer, and
| that is plain absurd.
|
| For that money, you can buy several physical devices that
| are far more complex and collectively took 100x the human
| effort to design and build, so no, those are not fair
| prices.
| MaximilianEmel wrote:
| What's the font they're using for the UI?
| sandofsky wrote:
| Halide Router, a custom typeface we commissioned.
| Uehreka wrote:
| > Speaking of accidental taps, when gripping the side of your
| phone to keep things stable, we found it too easy to accidentally
| tap buttons.
|
| I have this problem CONSTANTLY with the iPhone 15 Pro Max, not
| when filming, but when doing everyday tasks. Something about the
| edge of the phone is such that a bit of my palm goes over just
| enough of the screen to trigger gestures, and now the YouTube
| video I'm watching is double speed or something I'm reading
| scrolls to the top for no reason.
|
| I'm generally good about not dropping my phone (knock on wood) so
| I'd rather not get a case just to fix this weird touch
| sensitivity issue. As far as I recall this wasn't an issue with
| my iPhone 12 Pro Max.
| MillionOClock wrote:
| I frequently have exactly the same double speed issue on
| YouTube, nice to know I'm not the only one
| Uehreka wrote:
| I will say I love this feature on my iPad (touch the screen
| and hold without moving, the video will be 2x until you let
| go) but I wish it could be turned on on a per-device basis.
| tamimio wrote:
| But blackmagicCam is free..
| alin23 wrote:
| This is great! Just yesterday I was looking for a way to get a
| daylight 5500k white balance on videos the same way I do in
| Halide but it seems there's no way to do that in the built in
| camera app.
|
| I know you can "lock white balance" but it is still nudging it
| towards neutral before locking.
|
| Unfortunately there's no white balance option in Kino, but I
| already love its Auto Motion and manual focus. Maybe you'd be
| open to adding a white balance control too?
|
| I also think it would make sense to have an option to persist the
| chosen white balance even after the app is quit. Same on Halide.
| I prefer "daylight" on all my shots [1], but I have to switch
| from AWB every time.
|
| Sorry for the premature feature request, Kino is awesome anyway,
| the UI is so so good! and thank you for launching it with 50%
| off!
|
| [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQPPa_8Z13o
| localfirst wrote:
| is there something like this but for DJI action 4/pocket 3
| camera? doesn't seem like this app will run on iphone se
| TheJoeMan wrote:
| "Opening a LUT file directly from an app will give you an option
| to open in Kino...even works in Messages!" - Anyone able to test
| how tapping on a .cube in iMessages opens in Kino? Last time I
| tried to code something like this, Messages is the holdout in not
| working properly. This StackOverflow I found requires a QuickLook
| extension: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22826978/custom-
| extensio... So does Kino open directly or is there 2 taps to open
| from iMessage?
| SuurRae wrote:
| It's sort of a PITA. Click on the name of the person who sent
| you the LUT in iMessage and scroll down to "Documents". Tap on
| the LUT file. Use the Share button in the lower left corner and
| then, where it lists the apps, tap "More". You'll see Kino
| listed. If you tap it, it will automatically import it.
|
| Again, PITA, but given the iOS infrastructure, I'm surprised it
| works at all.
| tonetegeatinst wrote:
| On graphene is so I'm unsure how well this could work...but I
| might recommend this to my family members that only buy iphones.
|
| Question I do have though: is the purchase done through the app
| store or your website, and if its done via the app store or
| website, can I use it on as many of my own devices attached to
| the account? Or is it more of a 1 liscense per device?
|
| Second: the presents you have sound nice and you mention that "Of
| course you can turn off Instant Grade to save the original Apple
| Log footage, allowing you the flexibility to change your look in
| our video reviewer. " does this support saving the original apple
| log footage, then opening that footage in the app and being able
| to preview how the different effects would look? And can I export
| the effected footage as a copy of the original that way I can
| have both the original and graded footage without overwriting the
| original data?
| ihuman wrote:
| It's a paid-up-front app, so you buy it through the App Store,
| which means you can use it with any device you have that's
| signed into the same App Store account. I don't see any in-app
| purchases.
| al_borland wrote:
| I'm tempted to buy this while it's discounted, but if I'm a
| realist, I've taken 7 videos this year for a total of 2 minutes
| 47 seconds. I'm probably not the target market, but I'm glad to
| know options like this exist.
| malshe wrote:
| I am with you on this one. I looked through my photo library
| and realized that the last video I took was from the New Year's
| Eve :)
| littlestymaar wrote:
| The editorialized title should probably be changed. I get that
| the original one ("Introducing Kino") is not descriptive enough,
| but at the same time "Kino: Pro Video Camera" is misleading since
| it's not a camera (let alone a professional one) but a camera app
| for iPhone.
| nerdjon wrote:
| Is it just me or does the marketing seem to disagree with itself
| a bit?
|
| On the one hand it is talking about how until the iPhone 15 Pro
| one of the issues is that you were stuck with whatever version of
| the video your iPhone decided to record, but then it is talking
| about how this recording app is not just recording straight log
| and doing its own magic? What am I missing here, arn't they doing
| the exact thing that they were saying was bad in the first place?
|
| Related to that, they seem to talk about LUT's but if with this
| we are saying that we can use these prebaked LUT's what exactly
| does that get me over using prebaked LUT's in my video editor?
|
| I am curious how this compares to BlackMagic Camera.
|
| Also curious how this will standup when Final Cut Pro Camera
| launches later this year (but that is obviously only valuable if
| you use FCP).
|
| For $10, I may download it and give it a shot. But I am not fully
| sure I am seeing the value proposition here and I feel like there
| has to be something I am really missing here. If it isnt
| targeting the pro market as some commenters are saying, then what
| is the point of this over the built in camera app?
|
| For context, I do my recording on an iPhone 15 pro max so maybe
| this isnt targeted at me?
| janandonly wrote:
| I did some quick testing. On my iPhone 15 pro it did not crash as
| some reported.
|
| But the app did create a video file that has audio backed in at
| 2x the speed. So halfway true the video the audio stops already.
|
| I guess this is an interesting app to keep eyes on after a few
| updates.
| vorprokuror wrote:
| Hi, I've just bought the app, congratulations on your release!
| Wishing for real time de-squeeze for anamorphic lenses users. And
| one more thing. If there's any way to make it compatible with
| various gimbals and I mean like actually compatible with
| zoom/focus controls etc, it'd be a killer feature.
| kentf wrote:
| Take my money.
| blehn wrote:
| Does it disable (or allow for disabling) iPhone's dreadful
| dynamic tone mapping? (It makes exposure-locked footage look like
| auto-exposure is on)
| bigdict wrote:
| > let's walk through a few of the tent-pole features
|
| Hehe nice job on the Apple lingo signaling
| tptacek wrote:
| Standard marketing language, used especially in the features
| and series film industry. The Avengers is MCU tentpole IP.
| bigdict wrote:
| Never heard it in any context in tech other than Apple.
| tptacek wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tent-pole_(entertainment)
| bigdict wrote:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/10/business/apple-siri-
| ai-ch...:
|
| > a tent pole project -- the company's special, internal
| label that it uses to organize employees around once-in-
| a-decade initiatives
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13305285
| tptacek wrote:
| Pretty sure they lifted that from the features industry.
| drewbeck wrote:
| This looks cool but the line about "show don't tell" is followed
| by a LOT of telling.
| ape4 wrote:
| You're also not supposed to say "show don't tell"
| OKThatWillDo wrote:
| ...and accompanied by an image that shows a camera oriented the
| wrong way for video
| l33tbro wrote:
| The copy is atrocious.
| OKThatWillDo wrote:
| A "filmmaking" app prominently features a camera turned the wrong
| way (for video) on its homepage.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Cries in Android.
|
| Realistically I don't blame em, but it sucks to see IOS get all
| the cool apps. With emulators coming to iOS I know my next phone
| will probably be an iPhone
| xster wrote:
| A bunch of Android OEMs already baked into the OS's default
| camera. The Honor Magic6 Pro for instance just lets you shoot
| log or preview (or bake in) any number of lut while capturing.
| I think they had it for 4 product cycles already.
| zer0zzz wrote:
| There's MotionCam Pro for android:
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.motioncam
|
| I myself feel the same, with emus on iOS the only missing class
| of software at this point is like... Blink+V8 instead of
| WebKit+JSC as a browser choice.
| sonium wrote:
| Literally every color grading example shows log footage as the
| "before". Of course this lacks contrast and vibrancy because it's
| not meant to be watched "as is". Please show me regular footage
| as a baseline so it's a fair comparison.
| tiptup300 wrote:
| I didn't read this as a comparison against normal iPhone output
|
| normal iPhone output is great looking just not "the look"
|
| I prefer without a comparison of iPhones version.
| IshKebab wrote:
| It's a meaningless comparison. They're showing a "before and
| after" but the "before" is something that nobody uses.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Yeah talk about disingenuous.
| bambax wrote:
| I like the still from Con Air (sporting Cyrus 'The Virus'), but
| do people actually use a phone to shoot 'serious' movies? Even
| amateur, super low-budget ones? When so many cameras that can be
| bought used for dirt cheap, shoot D-Log, and many have
| interchangeable lenses, and an actual shutter button, and
| removable SD cards, etc.
|
| Taking pictures with a phone is unpleasant enough, but shooting
| movies is another world of pain.
| tshaddox wrote:
| I don't think the overall goal here is to increase the
| frequency at which you choose an iPhone when you're carefully
| considering which camera to use from a large selection of
| available cameras.
|
| Instead, I think the overall goal is to increase the video
| quality for times when you _don't_ have the chance to carefully
| consider which camera to use from a large selection of
| available cameras. Your iPhone is already in your pocket.
| justinator wrote:
| I wish they just said, "color grading made easy on the iPhone 15"
| in their copy. And then if they wanna dive in a explain it, fine.
| sandofsky wrote:
| The submitter linked to the announcement on our blog, which
| goes into greater detail than our marketing.
|
| https://www.shotwithkino.com
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| Yeah, I may be stupid, but I initially thought it's a camera
| that I can buy, kind of like GoPro, but for cinematic effects,
| and I was trying to understand what the price is.
| uxcolumbo wrote:
| It's refreshing to see you kept the website simple. No stupid
| scroll jacking or fancy (read distracting) transitions or scroll
| effects.
|
| I like supporting independent software studios like yours who try
| not to sell out, so bought it without hesitation, even though I
| don't shoot a lot of video with my iPhone. This will probably
| make me experiment more with video.
| willseth wrote:
| When I upgrade my iPhone I will buy this immediately.
|
| It's unclear if you already support this, but I would love an
| option to automatically bake graded footage back down to HEVC. I
| will never edit most of the video I take, I just want to dial in
| the look I want.
| qwertox wrote:
| That animation with the comparison swipes below "What if you
| could use all that powerful extra color data and get a cinematic
| look with one tap?" looks highly misleading. I've never seen
| original videos as bad as the ones used in the "before"-state. Am
| I wrong? I'm not into filming, so I might be.
| zamadatix wrote:
| As mentioned immediately prior to the comparison/line:
|
| > Out of the box, Apple Log footage looks really flat. It's not
| meant to look good. It's meant to be edited later.
|
| The before/after is about how you can apply each of those
| different prebuilt LUTs immediately with a tap, not about
| comparing how much better edited log looks than unedited log.
| CaptainOfCoit wrote:
| > Am I wrong? I'm not into filming, so I might be.
|
| Yes, it's because you haven't seen raw log video before. It'll
| look very washed out when filming in log (and typically when
| previewing recent shots) but then in post-processing you'll
| actually tune the colors (called "color grading", in case you
| wanna seek out more about it).
| GaryNumanVevo wrote:
| The original Matrix wasn't color graded like that! They only
| pushed the green levels in the subsequent home video release!
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| If you want to say "lets you do color grading", then fine. But
| claiming/implying this can make "pro video" or stuff that looks
| like it came out of a cinema camera is _absurd_. I know they don
| 't say that outright, but it is heavily implied that the only, or
| major, difference is just color space and grading. And the name
| is just...laughable.
|
| > On a technical level, why does video shot on an iPhone look
| different than one shot on a big Hollywood camera?
|
| ...and then they launch into color grading and whatnot.
|
| The real answer:
|
| Because the pixel pitch on a cinema digital camera is _four
| times_ the area of the pixels on an iPhone which allows for much
| greater light gathering which means lower noise, and the sensor
| is far less limited by diffraction.
|
| Because the iPhone lens, being so tiny, has almost zero depth of
| field and that looks like shit.
|
| Because the people operating the camera are very good at
| cinematography.
|
| ...not because of some software.
| Exuma wrote:
| I love this landing page, excellent work. Steps me through lots
| of examples with clean and efficient writing. Nice work!
|
| Edit: i just bought it
| zamadatix wrote:
| I really appreciate that the app is just an up front price! I
| probably don't really need it but at that price and
| straightforwardness it's not really a big loss if I don't use it
| much so I grabbed it. I looked at the other apps and realized
| they had made Halide as well which I tried out for a bit, for
| some reason thought it was subscription only and decided I didn't
| want it that much while clearing out subscriptions, and just
| noticed they say you can buy it outright too (initially I
| probably saw a high price tag and wanted to see how long I'd
| really like it for). Going back into the app I can't seem to find
| the straight purchase option (perhaps because my initial year
| subscription hasn't expired?) which means I can't find how much
| it is.
|
| Perhaps I'm just uneducated and there is a place to still see it
| in the app or on the app store but even then it's all just a pain
| compared to "It's $9.99, wanna buy?" in your face at the app
| store and article.
|
| The only other (very minor) thing that gave me a startle was the
| onboarding process asks if you want to go "starter" or some other
| more advanced category and I thought I missed that it would try
| to upsell you until I reread and saw it meant I could select
| either layout type out of the box. Not sure that's really the
| apps fault as much as my paranoia after having just checked
| through all the above and being left thinking I missed something.
| selectodude wrote:
| Halide has a lifetime IAP for $60 in there.
| frognumber wrote:
| At the $9.99 price point, I'd buy an Android version in an
| instant.
|
| At a subscription or a significantly higher price point, I
| wouldn't.
|
| Plural of anecdote isn't data, but anecdote is better than
| nothing, so there you have it.
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