[HN Gopher] I Miss BSD/Linux
___________________________________________________________________
I Miss BSD/Linux
Author : ingve
Score : 61 points
Date : 2024-05-28 06:34 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (brainbaking.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (brainbaking.com)
| da_chicken wrote:
| This is not identical to my experience, but I definitely have the
| same problem with hobby computing. My lack of time and energy as
| I get older is frustrating, but also just the fact that I don't
| want all the hassle. I want a computer to do work in
| applications, not because I want to meticulously maintain and
| configure the operating system for a couple hours every week.
| exe34 wrote:
| I use nixos - if an application isn't in the repos, I don't
| even bother anymore. really simplified system admin for me.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| That's why I moved back to Arch.
|
| Sometimes you do need that app and I'd rather use AUR vs
| writing Nix.
| exe34 wrote:
| I've never used arch, but I do love how nixos never breaks,
| so I can't really let go of that anymore. i do use
| docker/conda when something is only available that way.
| Woeps wrote:
| It's the same reason why I never buy the latest hardware but
| always something that came out a year-ish before.
|
| Eventough I had issues with Windows not finding any drivers on
| my Lenovo. While OpenSuse had no problems at all ... which was
| a nice surprise for a change.
| erk__ wrote:
| A bit offtopic despite the title, there is a BSD/Linux distro:
| https://chimera-linux.org/about/
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| There also was an inverse project of GNU/kFreeBSD stopped in
| 2023 https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/index.en.html
| bozey07 wrote:
| > Why doesn't a great MacBook alternative exist?
|
| I really don't get this either. Every laptop I've looked at has
| some wart somewhere - battery life, webcam, structural integrity,
| display, CPU, temperatures, speakers, IO, repairability (not that
| Macbooks are good here either).
|
| Some of these things aren't even hard to get right. It's like
| laptop manufacturers just don't care.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| macbook like touchpads is what amazed me most, Apple showed
| their great touchpads around 2006 with the Macbooks (not pro),
| and to this date no one seems to be able to clone them and
| deliver the same quality and smoothness.
| throwaway1105q wrote:
| Does any other manufacturer produce their own? I think the
| major issue is that other companies are integrators of
| cheapest bids for components, not computer companies.
| guenthert wrote:
| Sure they do. The 2013 Chromebook Pixel for one.
|
| But yes, it's hit or miss. My Dell M6800 'portable
| workstation' has an abysmal touchpad (really, what were they
| thinking?), but then, since it is way too heavy to actually
| reside on the lap, I use a mouse (which in any case is more
| precise) there. So the proper question is then, why did they
| bother with one at all?
|
| Otoh, the cheap lenovo ThinkPad 11e has a surprisingly good
| one.
| tracker1 wrote:
| I've seen some close ones on higher end chromebooks. The
| Razor laptops are also close. The clicking motion is a bit
| off/different on many, but there are some that are very close
| generally speaking. I get what you mean. Currently using an
| M1 air for personal laptop, work issued is an M3 pro. My next
| personal laptop will likely be a Framework AMD 13" running
| PopOS.
| bitsandboots wrote:
| Most laptops are bad intentionally. Less effort, more profit,
| and replaced sooner.
|
| But that's not to say good non-mac laptops dont exist, nor that
| mac laptops are the best. I currently have an m1 mbp and an
| asus zephyrus g14 They're the same size and weight, but
|
| + the macbook has longer battery life, though this varies.
| sometimes they are equal at 5 hours, and they both can go to
| 10, but it is easier for the mac.
|
| + the macbook has a webcam, but also a minus, because i prefer
| to unplug an external one when not in use, and there are really
| great portable external ones that have gyros to follow you
| around.
|
| - the macbook's display is worse, because of apple's insistence
| on these terrible glossy finishes
|
| - needlessly sharp edges. this could be user error, but if they
| didnt design it that way it wouldnt be.
|
| - I/O? the thing does not have usb A ports. now I need adapters
| and hubs.
|
| - no nvidia graphics card. part of the worse battery life of
| the g14 is controlling when that graphics card is in use, but
| at least it has it, so that i can do certain creative & ai
| workloads.
|
| - keyboard is just worse. and that's before getting into that
| macos has forced the keyboard to be worse by having 'option'
| and 'command' keys to be an obstacle for anyone who uses every
| other OS that isn't macos. With enough key interception and
| remapping I got it to act like linux but the keys are still
| named wrong
| herbst wrote:
| I am not sure what people do with their laptops but I am
| perfectly happy with a refurbished 5th gen X1, replacement for
| my t480s, that replaced my t440, after t420s.
|
| I never paid more than $500 for a refurbished model. I can
| choose which kind of screen I am going for never had any
| heating issues or driver issues with Linux.
|
| I've had a MacBook at work, I could afford a framework or
| whatever when I wanted. But except gaming (don't care and
| better devices available) and AI/rendering (cloud cheaper in
| most cases) I don't see why the majority of people seems to
| think they need $2000 machines.
| ginko wrote:
| Why even bother with working on a laptop and not just get a
| proper desktop workstation PC?
| Koshkin wrote:
| It's just not a good fit for my lap.
| ginko wrote:
| That's what desks are for..
|
| Seriously though, how much do you move with your
| development computer? I can't imagine being productive
| without at least two large screens and a fullsize keyboard
| and trackball anyways..
| Koshkin wrote:
| In my case, I have to carry it to the office and back
| home. I also often use it outside.
| tiagod wrote:
| I have a similar setup to yours, but end up working (for
| my job, or for personal enjoyment) more than half the
| time on a single 14" screen, wherever (kitchen table, my
| couch, someone else's couch, outside, ...).
|
| For some kind of work, I find the extra screen space very
| useful, but for other tasks it ends up being distracting.
|
| Having a light, quiet laptop that keeps itself cool and
| has a long battery life is what makes it possible.
|
| And when it's not enough, I can plug a single usb-c cable
| and have it charging, and connected to a keyboard, mouse,
| two screens, gigabit ethernet and speakers/headphones.
| tracker1 wrote:
| Get a Framework AMD laptop and install PopOS... tada, Mac
| aesthetics (mostly) under Linux with good hardware
| upgradability.
| justin66 wrote:
| I understand why people like the Framework laptop, but this
| is like comparing the space shuttle to the pickup truck
| Lamont used to drive in Sanford and Sons. It doesn't compare
| favorably to a Macbook.
| tracker1 wrote:
| Having used Macbook laptops for a couple decades, and Linux
| as my primary desktop for a few years (off and on for
| decades before that), I'm not sure your comparison holds up
| all that well at all.
|
| Most of the tools I use in Mac are cross platform and
| otherwise available in Linux. Many aren't completely UI/UX
| integrated even (VS Code, Brave Browser, etc). Many others
| are command line tools that are the same or easier with
| Linux.
|
| What is it that you think a Macbook has that would be
| effectively lacking?
| Wytwwww wrote:
| A non plasticky chassis, great touchpad and generally
| much better build quality and hardware (compared to the
| Framework) as long as you don't care about upgradeability
| and modularity it's on a whole other level.
| justin66 wrote:
| > What is it that you think a Macbook has that would be
| effectively lacking?
|
| I bought a Framework laptop and a Macbook Air M2 at
| roughly the same time a couple of years ago. The
| difference in hardware quality is night and day. I think
| even if I used free cross platform software tools like
| the ones you mention, that would matter a lot to me.
|
| It was an experience that taught me how little
| repairability means to me at this stage in life, which I
| guess is a little sad...
| tiagod wrote:
| Unfortunately, and as much as I wish this wasn't true, it's
| not even close...
|
| Sure, macbooks look good, but it's not the looks that make
| them great laptops.
| sedatk wrote:
| (The page isn't accessible from Turkey. I had to enable VPN to
| read the article)
|
| As I understand, the author's main motive to try alternative
| operating systems is his frustration with mainstream operating
| systems, a lack of control and understanding so the speak.
|
| The fallacy of that is that instead of encountering a few
| significant problems with a mainstream OS, now the author has to
| experience a death by thousand cuts: hundreds of small issues, a
| missing driver there, a DPI incompatibility here, and now they
| spend more time fixing these issues than they spend time charging
| their laptop two more minutes because a weather widget decided to
| make a web request. I'm not saying those issues are negligible, I
| already said "significant", but our perception of an open and
| hackable OS saves us time might as well be a myth.
|
| If you like hacking, more power to you. But, if you want to get
| things done, focus on those scenarios. See how well you can do
| your job and how much you are hindered on each OS.
|
| Not a MacOS fan myself, but I find this kind of hiraeth (missing
| a place that doesn't exist[1]) a sign of being distracted.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hiraeth
| arghwhat wrote:
| There are frustrations on Linux, but there's also a lot of
| development where its Windows or macOS that gives "death by a
| thousand cuts" so there are definitely reasons for you to pick
| that over Windows or macOS - even with WSL2. Having to forward
| hardware over HyperV can give a lot of headaches.
|
| Windows machines infected by corporate also have crippling I/O
| speeds. I have a fun example at a customer where even running a
| Linux VM on the same machine will give 10x compile speed, and
| something like 100x git operation speeds than the same
| operations on the host...
|
| If you need it in a corporate setting, Lenovo ships both Fedora
| and Ubuntu on their thinkpads, with certified hardware support.
| Someone running Gentoo or Arch Linux are sure to burn many
| hours on the machine itself which they may or may not enjoy,
| but you don't _have_ to go that route.
|
| It's not _too_ hard to be on well-supported hardware either -
| people pick from a handful of laptops to run macOS, so it doesn
| 't seem to unreasonable to also pick the machine for Linux.
| Think of it as being somewhere in between macOS "runs here
| only" and Windows "well it came with it" when it comes to
| having to select your machine.
| int_19h wrote:
| These days, Windows is trying to solve the dev I/O scenario
| by having a separate "developer optimized" partition:
| https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dev-drive/
| arghwhat wrote:
| Thanks for the link. What an amusing band-aid.
|
| It's weird that they're mixing ReFS into it, as NTFS is not
| at all the problem. It feels like they're either using this
| as a random opportunity to air ReFS again, or as a decoy to
| make it sound like the dev partition is a fancy special
| filesystem optimization, rather than the more likely
| reality of it being duct tape on their weird VFS layer,
| likely doing away with stuff like in-line Windows Defender
| I/O interception as all the usage warnings and corp group
| policy references would suggest to be the case...
| sedatk wrote:
| What's weird about Microsoft's VFS layer?
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Yes, the major benefit of Dev Drive is that the default
| filter driver stack is minimized from OS drive defaults,
| including Defender's and other AV's realtime drivers.
| NTFS itself wasn't the problem. Microsoft seems to
| acknowledge that the filter drivers in the wild are a
| part of the problem, and a partition opt-out is useful.
| (Of course all those warnings about corp group policy
| also point out that Enterprises are given the ability
| with group policy to force turn on a lot of those filter
| drivers for Dev Drive partitions, because Microsoft loves
| giving Corporations ways to shoot their own feet in Group
| Policy. What would Group Policy even be if it wasn't just
| Footgun as a Service?)
|
| It does seem like this is some sort of "trojan horse"
| (but not in a bad way) play for ReFS. But I'm not sure it
| is for sinister reasons: Encouraging Developers to use
| ReFS for their main development partition is a good way
| to encourage lots of free app compatibility testing on
| top of ReFS and suss out the minor bugs in applications
| that assume all Windows runs solely on NTFS. It seems
| like a play to _increase_ reliance on the VFS layer and
| its abstractions and further get away from code assuming
| NTFS specifics.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Each year I spend close to zero hours dealing with edge case
| bugs and incompatibilities in Linux and BSD despite all of my
| personal devices running one form of FOSS OS or another.
|
| My personal laptop is ArchLinux and it definitely took longer
| to set up than macOS would have, but it's been just as rock
| solid since. In fact, perhaps ironically, I've had more
| problems with my work MacBook Pro than I have with my personal
| laptop running Linux:
|
| - various USB and Thunderbolt hubs not working correctly
|
| - multiple monitors, and macOS forgetting which screen is which
|
| - screen flicker of a older LCD (it's the screen that's shit,
| but still, it doesn't flicker in Linux)
|
| - literal kernel panics coming out of sleep. Turns out it
| didn't like a USB DAC
|
| I don't think I've had a missing driver problem with Linux in
| something like 20 years.
|
| Your mileage might vary but this old meme that "Linux is buggy
| and has missing drivers" hasn't been true in two decades.
|
| So why do people seem to spend more time hacking at Linux?
|
| The answer is probably just selection bias: those who want to
| tinker will generally gravitate towards a platform that lets
| them tinker. But that doesn't mean that you need to be a
| tinkerer to use Linux.
| TheRoque wrote:
| Sorry, but this is still true IMO. For example no good driver
| is available for the GTX 1080 which will result in a buggy
| experience. Not even talking about software availability and
| functionalities. I have had other issues, but anyways I don't
| want to list them all.
|
| I also find it misleading to claim that Arch Linux is "rock
| solid", just look at the news to see the amount of "manual
| intervention needed" listed. I love Linux and especially
| Fedora and OpenSUSE, but it still has its issue that make me
| sigh and say "ok... I'll just get windows".
| persnickety wrote:
| The nvidia situation is more of a "one big issue" than
| "death by a thousand cuts".
| fragmede wrote:
| > For example no good driver is available for the GTX 1080
| which will result in a buggy experience.
|
| If you have a GTX 1080. For everyone else that has moved on
| from an 8 year old graphics card, they won't run into that
| particular issue. Hence some people reporting a rock solid
| experience with Arch Linux.
| TheRoque wrote:
| The age shouldn't be an issue, and it should actually be
| the opposite. Also, I'm not talking about Arch Linux in
| this case. For Arch, my issues were with the Network
| card. But as I said, just hop on the "news" panel on the
| arch linux website, and you'll see all the tiny manual
| interventions you have to do. For a "rock solid" UX, I
| would definitely not use Arch, but probably Mint or
| Fedora instead.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| People don't usually mix the terms "rock solid" and "UX"
| like that.
|
| Arch is stable. But I agree that its UX isn't aimed at
| non-technical people.
|
| Windows, for example, is a much easier user experience
| but it's not any more stable for it.
|
| Generally when one says "rock solid" they mean "stable"
| worthless-trash wrote:
| Turns out you buy hardware that works for your OS. You do
| it for OSX, why not for Linux ?
| TheRoque wrote:
| Yes, this is a good point, however when it comes to GPUs,
| you might not have an optimal choice at all, since some
| stuff come only on NVidia GPUs. However, after the GTX
| 1080 they released open source drivers and things should
| be better for more recent versions.
| bachmeier wrote:
| Well, some folks had trouble with the GTX 1080 on Windows,
| so by your logic Windows is also no good:
|
| https://answers.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/forum/all/nvidia...
|
| https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/gtx-1080-no-
| display-...
|
| https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/geforce-
| graphics...
| TheRoque wrote:
| I don't have the time to dig into all these links, but
| this might be different than an OS issue, more of a
| manufacturer, or a poor choice of hardware from the
| people posting it, or they messed up with their software
| (not updated driver etc.). Because in theory, the NVidia
| drivers for the GPUs are flawless on Windows. So this
| doesn't play at all in the Linux VS Windows balance.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| "Manual intervention" in ArchLinux is just where you need
| to do something in a specific order during a system update.
| It takes all of about 30 seconds to do and is still a hell
| of a lot easier than having to install software on Windows
| and macOS.
|
| Yeah homebrew exists on macOSbut it's not part of the base
| install, let alone official Apple product. The App Store on
| both Mac and Windows sucks. Not just in the availability of
| software but also even just raw install performance
| (they're slower than pacman + Arch mirrors). Worse still,
| Windows and macOS still normalise googling for software and
| then manually downloading and installing it.
|
| So if Arch isn't "rock solid" because every 6 months or so
| (though, honestly, it's been more like once every 3 years
| for me) you need to be slightly more careful doing a full
| system update, then Windows and macOS are positively
| primitive by your same benchmark.
|
| To be clear, I'm not a Linux fanboy by any measure, but
| it's literally the concept of package management that
| pushed me towards modern distributions like SuSE and Arch
| and one of the biggest annoyances I have with Windows and
| macOS.
| TheRoque wrote:
| Package management in most Linux distro is a bliss, this
| I 100% agree on.
| tracker1 wrote:
| Might be worth grabbing an RX 6600 to replace the GTX 1080
| and sell it on FB marketplace or similar. Assuming you want
| to stick to similar or slightly better performance.
| cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
| 20 years brings you to 2004. You've either being dishonestly
| hyperbolic, or your experience is so slim or insanely lucky
| that it's not useful as a representative account. That's
| TWENTY YEARS. Not a chance in hell.
|
| Sometimes I think that desktop Linux users get so used the
| background noise of system maintenance that they forget that
| they're even doing it.
|
| I say this as an ex heavy Linux desktop user. Distributions I
| used for a considerable period of time include both Ubuntu
| and Gentoo. I've seen the spectrum. But this is just
| ludicrous.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| 2004 was round about the last time I had a major driver
| issue. I remember it well: it was WiFi drivers and I had to
| load Windows drivers via some compatibility layer, the name
| which escapes me. Weirdly FreeBSD worked just fine with any
| WiFi radio I threw at it.
|
| Bluetooth never worked until recently either but I've never
| wanted to use Bluetooth on a laptop until wireless
| earphones were the norm so never missed BT functionality.
|
| I rarely game on Linux but never had an issue with graphics
| card drivers. I will admit that I've been exceptionally
| lucky in that regard though, because radios and graphics do
| seem to be the rough edges.
|
| These days with everything going USB, support in Linux has
| become child's play. If a device presents itself as a USB
| standard rather than a proprietary protocol operating over
| USB, then Linux will handle it with ease.
|
| So basically 2004 isnt unrealistic. I'm sure if I were to
| buy hardware that was tested to run on Linux (much like
| macOS users have to) then I'd not have had even the WiFi
| and BT issues.
|
| edit:
|
| just to add, I'd been running Linux since the 90s. I
| remember having to recompile the kernel if you wanted a new
| driver. I remember the migration to ELF. I used to love
| Windows 2000 and that was my daily driver but XP pre-
| service pack 2 sucked bad. It had double the memory and CPU
| footprint of 2000, and (in my opinion at least) had worse
| defaults. So it was XP that pushed me to run Linux as my
| primary daily driver. First with Slackware on a PC. But
| then when I got a laptop at around 2004 -- bought because I
| started getting DJ bookings with Ableton Live -- I tried
| various Linux distros before landing on SuSE (a vastly
| underrated platform!) and SuSE was rock solid for me for
| years.
| 4878241143 wrote:
| > I remember it well: it was WiFi drivers and I had to
| load Windows drivers via some compatibility layer
|
| ndiswrapper
| herbst wrote:
| Imo the maintenance thing is not always true. When I
| install Linux on a relatives computer I usually never hear
| from them again because they finally have a OS to run their
| browser on that doesn't constantly nag them.
|
| For my use, sure I break it. But I broke Macs too and never
| had a stable environment there either.
| guenthert wrote:
| Some of us where using Linux desktop/laptops more than 20
| years ago (I had a Toshiba Tecra upgraded to 48MiB RAM
| running happily Debian Linux in '97). And it wasn't a big
| deal. And I've seen this discussion every so often in the
| last thirty years. It's always the same: don't buy bleeding
| edge hardware.
| gbin wrote:
| Now we are lucky to have a good choice of laptops that
| are Linux friendly.
| talldayo wrote:
| On the flip side, I could confidently bet any amount of
| money that I do proportionally more MacOS maintainance than
| I do on Linux. And I'm even using Nvidia drivers, it's
| probably lower still if you've got an AMD card with built-
| in kernel level support.
| vundercind wrote:
| > Sometimes I think that desktop Linux users get so used
| the background noise of system maintenance that they forget
| that they're even doing it.
|
| This was me for a decade. Since I left, any time I check in
| on Linux it's like "how did I _live_ like this?!" I was
| absolutely blind to how many little things I had to do to
| keep it happy, or how often I was avoiding using my
| computer ways that should have been fine but that bugs had
| trained me not to. I still have to force myself to remember
| drag-n-drop for anything other than moving files around is
| an option, and will probably work fine and do something
| reasonable on the platform I use now--though to be fair
| Windows also helped train me to avoid that particular
| thing, not just Linux. Took me more than a year to stop
| feeling anxious when I just closed my laptop without first
| doing some manual dance to be _sure_ it went to sleep.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > Sometimes I think that desktop Linux users get so used
| the background noise of system maintenance that they forget
| that they're even doing it.
|
| That's probably true, but it's true of everything; the
| stupid papercuts that Linux users are used to are
| _different_ from the stupid papercuts that Windows users
| are used to, but it is not clear to me that they 're worse.
| e12e wrote:
| According to Wikipedia [1], Debian Woody came out in 2002,
| Sarge in 2005 and Etch in 2007.
|
| The first Ubuntu lts was 2006.
|
| This timeframe sounds about right to me - that's when
| things started to get better than windows hw support in
| some sense.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_version_history
| Koshkin wrote:
| > _Not a chance in hell._
|
| In 2003 I was using a Pentium III Dell laptop with Linux
| (2.4) on it. Everything worked, including wifi.
| bachmeier wrote:
| I agree. I have a Windows 11 laptop for work. It's had a few
| issues, including wifi connection problems for a while, but
| the one that has been most horrible is that it may or may not
| detect an external display. It's infuriating to plug it in
| and nothing happens. A reboot always fixes it, but that's no
| fun.
| grumpyprole wrote:
| My work laptop, a Lenovo X1 running Windows 10, was
| completely busted out of the box. Sleep doesn't work,
| massive throttling issues running zoom (only improved a bit
| with firmware updates), WSL 100% CPU bugs, display port MST
| bugs, the list goes on and on. IT say all my issues are
| normal and known. About five years ago, I had a Linux
| Laptop for work, that was rock solid and I miss it very
| much.
| bachmeier wrote:
| Your post reminds me that my wife's Windows 11 laptop has
| a bug where it won't always shut down when she closes the
| lid. Sometimes I'll get up in the morning and hear the
| fan roaring, and the room will even be warm because of
| it. Guess who's the one that's going to have to figure
| out how to fix it. Her Windows maintenance time is low.
| sshine wrote:
| > _Each year I spend close to zero hours_
|
| > _My personal laptop is ArchLinux and it definitely took
| longer to set up_
|
| I think the honest way to calculate maintenance time is to
| amortise setup time over the years your laptop is in active
| duty.
|
| That becomes like at least five hours per year for me. My
| Linux installations usually live for 2-3 years, and ArchLinux
| typically takes 1-2 evenings to set up:
|
| Partly because I enjoy it and want to explore if I should
| switch file system, login manager, terminal emulator, window
| manager, etc.
|
| Partly because I want to maintain my sysadmin katas.
|
| Partly because this step isn't automatic, so even if I want
| "same as before", some hardware is different, and installing
| software is still manual (I'm choosing NixOS next time).
|
| > _those who want to tinker will generally gravitate towards
| a platform that lets them tinker_
|
| My Linux is always in some state of disassembly. My MacBook
| always has working audio and video.
| cue_the_strings wrote:
| I set up my Arch install on my machine in 2015 and it took
| me a couple of days. That OS install has seen 5 SSDs so
| far, and 4 machines.
|
| My secret? I only buy hardware that's known to work well
| with Linux, mostly thinkpads, and I really don't do
| anything on the machine beyond coding and web browsing +
| some light CAD, so I never get anything with GPUs.
| sshine wrote:
| I use the same strategy, but I only copy dotfiles.
|
| I think setup can be automated further.
|
| My latest thinkpad had a GPU.
| Tor3 wrote:
| I'm not sure what you're saying, but if it's that if the author
| installed his BSD/Linux (or whatever variant) he would instead
| have to handle missing drivers and tons of other small
| problems.. that's really not true. Only if the hardware is kind
| of non-mainstream.
|
| Take this Fujitsu laptop, provided by my employer.. it's just
| Intel inside for everything, and a Linux distro was installed
| without a hitch and has been working problem-free for years.
| And it's always like that unless the hw is unusual. After all
| I've been trying this since 1992, back then there _was_ a bit
| of manual tinkering involved.
|
| Or this NEC-branded super-light laptop I bought in Japan.. same
| story. Install and forget. Zero issues. Heck, every developer
| at work doing their job stuff and development on various Linux
| computers, except for a couple of guys using Linux under
| Windows.
| atahanacar wrote:
| >The page isn't accessible from Turkey. I had to enable VPN to
| read the article
|
| I can access it just fine, no VPN, no DPI-prevention tools.
| cess11 wrote:
| I refuse to do work under Windows due to the bugs,
| inconsistencies, driver problems and shitty default UI.
|
| For years I've just pushed in Debian with the unfree packages
| and let it do its hardware sensing stuff and it works, except
| at one job, where they had a lot of security installation and
| configuration in pre-made bash scripts for initial setup that
| were tested on Ubuntu so I used that. It was worse, mainly due
| to snapd being an annoying turd, but not as bad as Windows.
|
| Multimonitor just works, automatic fan control just works,
| Bluetooth just works. It's been Toshibas and Lenovos and
| Samsungs.
|
| From my point of view mainstream Linux distros have been solid
| for fifteen years or so.
| Koshkin wrote:
| If I refused to do work under Windows, I'd be fired.
| cess11 wrote:
| Not if you end the contract yourself, but then you might
| not get unemployment insurance.
|
| Either way, my recommendation is that you prepare for an
| exit out of the abyssal misery that is Windows and then
| make the jump.
| zamalek wrote:
| I spent an actual month fixing the container story on MacOS
| where I work, as the first employee with an M1 (eventually
| wrote a facade for colima). Over the following 6 months I kept
| a tracker of time lost to MacOS nonsense in an effort to
| convince my employer to allow us to use Linux. I have objective
| data showing that MacOS wastes huge amounts of time.
|
| MacOS is an objectively incompetent development OS, if you only
| count what is possible with what Apple provides. Even if you do
| consider 3rd party (brew, nixpkgs, colima) it remains a
| complete fucking mess. Even Windows supports native [Windows]
| containers. Linux containers in WSL were flawless last I used
| them (a few years back). And this isn't a critique of colima,
| that it is a tireless and thankless project that does what it
| can to pave over the utter incompetence of Apple. I have since
| been allowed to use Linux, as the sole person trusted to self-
| serve IT. I see people in Slack struggling with something new
| in MacOS weekly.
| SpecialistK wrote:
| I suspect my next laptop will be a Framework, and although I wish
| they came with touchscreens, that is a blessing in disguise
| because it means I don't have to worry about touch support in a
| DE and can play with more BSDs or esoteric Linuxes.
|
| I have been tempted by the MacBooks, especially when on sale, but
| the closed nature and lack of repairability keeps me in check
| each time.
| 79a6ed87 wrote:
| Hello!
|
| Framework + FreeBSD user here. It works great, although I had
| to replace the network card I originally bought with it for an
| older one.
|
| Someone wrote a blog post about it too. Maybe I should also
| edit the Framework entry in the FreeBSD Wiki.
| tracker1 wrote:
| Yeah, I'm out after my M1 dies or I pass it to my daughter.
| Next one will be a Framework 13" AMD with PopOS, likely after
| the new Cosmic DE launches.
| jbm wrote:
| The look at his old desktop hit hard
| (https://brainbaking.com/post/2020/11/desktop-screenshots-
| of-...). I recently switched back to Ubuntu, but I was using
| Regolith with a similar look for a while and I loved it.
|
| Unfortunately, having a tiling WM when most apps don't expect it
| mean you run into all sorts of corner cases that the app
| developer didn't think of. No hope of resolution either.
| tracker1 wrote:
| The new Cosmos desktop from Pop/System75 looks very promising
| on that front.
| unixhero wrote:
| Oh I am so unhappy because I can't have everything on my Mac. Get
| a general purpose computer, general brand like Lenovo or Dell,
| with an Intel or AMD chip. Boom done.
| throwaway1105q wrote:
| "I can't have everything software-wise so let me torture myself
| hardware-wise so I can forget about it"
| pjmlp wrote:
| Around Windows 7 timeframe, I came to peace with FOSS UNIX clones
| never going to be as mature as proprietary OSes on laptops.
|
| Sure, the situation has improved a lot, but they still require
| compromises of not having everything supported like on desktop
| PCs, even when buying from Linux OEMs, my experience hasn't been
| that great.
|
| For a brief period, netbooks seemed to be on track, but then they
| suffered multiple attacks that wiped their market segment. First
| it was Microsoft with their price change for Windows XP, followed
| by tablets, hybrid laptops.
|
| And now those same OEMs, would rather sell ChromeOS and Android
| devices, than a full blown GNU/Linux, **BSD experience.
|
| With ARM revolution going on PC devices, something that many
| might not be yet aware, is that Pluton is also part of the story,
| adding to UEFI, TPM, and pleotora of other integration issues.
|
| So I just run Linux on a VM, first it was Virtual Box, VMware,
| nowadays it is either WSL or Virtualization framework.
|
| Missing them, not really, for me it was always more as a cheap
| way to have UNIX, my favourite one was Solaris, followed by
| UNIXes with a soul, like Irix, NeXTSTEP, ...
| soraminazuki wrote:
| I think the situation is a whole lot different since the days
| of Windows 7.
|
| The biggest change is that Windows just stopped caring. The UI
| is inconsistent and messy. It ceased to be an improvement over
| Linux a long time ago.
|
| Crapware is also another problem. Windows had this problem
| since the 90s, but it's now worse with Microsoft itself pushing
| for them. It's the only major desktop operating system to have
| this problem.
|
| Worst of all, it's a real pain to use. People avoiding it are
| no longer doing so out of abstract principles. It's just so bad
| that any person with self-respect wouldn't want to use it. From
| the constant resetting of user preferences to obnoxious banners
| and full screen nags, Microsoft is making it very clear that
| they have no respect at all for the users.
|
| With modern Windows, users are expected to work for Windows and
| not the other way around. Any data it touches also becomes the
| property of Microsoft. Or at least they act as if that's the
| case.
|
| Linux is slowly but steadily maturing. Also, end users are
| moving away from PCs, meaning those who still use one have a
| high likelihood of being a power user. I think FOSS desktops
| are more relevant than they were a decade ago.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Those people will rather pick a Apple or Google device
| instead.
| int_19h wrote:
| Privacy is also becoming a major issue on Windows. Of course,
| that became some time ago with cloud login (which is becoming
| progressively harder to work around - it's basically
| impossible to do so in the most recent Windows installer
| without mucking around with the terminal; the old "disconnect
| from WiFi" trick doesn't work anymore!). But on top of that,
| now there are all those AI features that are shoved onto you
| that require your data to be sent to the servers. And not
| even just AI, too - the most recent insult was the retirement
| of the built-in Mail app and its replacement with the "new
| Outlook", which, when you try to configure an IMAP account,
| will tell you that your email "must be synchronized to the
| Microsoft cloud" in order for it to be able to work with it.
| jmclnx wrote:
| >Around Windows 7 timeframe, I came to peace with FOSS UNIX
| clones never going to be as mature as proprietary OSes on
| laptops
|
| What does mature mean ? Unless you mean an entertainment or
| gaming device, I find for real computing, Linux/BSD is 100x
| better than Windows or MACs.
|
| For entertainment a TV, Cell Phone, tablet is a better choice.
| pjmlp wrote:
| It means that any normie can get a perfectly working
| GNU/Linux laptop from a random shopping mall and everything
| works out of the box without any constraints.
| ginko wrote:
| Normies use smartphones these days.
| babypuncher wrote:
| It makes sense when you follow the money.
|
| Tons of resources are poured into Linux development by private
| companies who effectively dictate what features get
| prioritized. These organizations aren't using Linux as a
| consumer desktop OS, they're using it for servers,
| supercomputers, embedded devices and other similar jobs. This
| is where all the investment goes, so features that support
| these use cases are by far the most polished.
| juliangmp wrote:
| He does make a good point: the arm laptops from apple _are_ hard
| to ignore
|
| I'm eagerly awaiting the day I can buy a high performance arm or
| riscv laptop and run Linux on it...
| fragmede wrote:
| How supported does that Linux have to be? Does Asahi Linux on
| Apple Silicon ARM count?
| e12e wrote:
| Still waiting for support for external display :/
| bitsandboots wrote:
| I feel the author's grief over lack of time, but it has lead me
| to very different solutions. All around the idea of the OS should
| not interrupt, should not change rapidly, and my interaction with
| programs should not be much different from OS to OS.
|
| At work, I opted for a mac due to how terrible the windows
| options were. But macos itself fought me all the way so the way
| to be happy at work was to replace finder, to replace the dock
| with a taskbar, and to rebind the keys, so that everything acted
| like linux/windows so that I can get my job done without falling
| in love with apple. To me that was simplicity - the simplicity of
| not having to relearn for no reason.
|
| At home, I no longer dual-boot because I vm. Now Linux and
| Windows cooperate. And the linux got less exotic. Debian:
| something I can trust, that gets out of my way, and changes
| slowly.
|
| But I'm also loving the truenas system I set up because it and
| freebsd take that simplicity to the next level.
|
| In both places, unix tools that go with me, so I am in my natural
| place everywhere. Basically, tmux, emacs, fzf, eza, and a
| bash/zsh config.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| > Debian: something I can trust, that gets out of my way, and
| changes slowly.
|
| Wholeheartedly agree. Debian has won the distro wars in my
| opinion. Their massive effort in safety and not breaking things
| means I can use stable as a "it just works" tool and focus on
| my actual work/fun.
| dmz73 wrote:
| Unfortunately, Debian is like Linux on desktop, always 80%
| there. You just cannot trust that plain Debian will get it
| right, even if it works that one time you install it. Two
| most recent issues that made me change to something else: 1)
| VLC in Debian is modified so it cannot play RTSP streams so
| you cannot watch video from your security camera. Windows VLC
| wroks. Flatpak VLC works. 2) Debian kernel update in point
| release broke NVIDIA driver so you cannot even see your
| desktop. Debian STABLE is just Linux kernel with old
| software. If it doesn't work now then it will definitely not
| work for next 2 years and if it does work now it can break at
| any time. All other Linux distros are not much better. Every
| update has 50% chance of breaking some software from distro
| repository but at least other distros fix their f-ups faster
| than Debian.
| anthk wrote:
| Debian and Devuan and OFC by proxy GNUinos has backports.
| Probably a newer VLC has been backported wit the bundled
| compile flags.
|
| If not, run apt-get build dep vlc, apt-src the package,
| make the changes and debuild it.
| tracker1 wrote:
| I've been pretty happy with Pop (downstream from
| Debian/Ubuntu) myself. Not sure why it doesn't get much
| love compared to say Mint.
| skydhash wrote:
| Linux Mint is basically what Windows should have been. An
| OS for productive use. Defaults are good enough that
| you're almost never tempted to change them. Just install
| your software and do work. XP (SP3?) was it and Win7 was
| it too. Everything after that is fighting against you.
|
| macOS is close too, but there's a couple of painful
| points. Some basic windows management (solved by
| rectangle), iCloud doing too many things, and too much
| locking down for "security".
| doubled112 wrote:
| I've run Debian stable + Flatpaks for a while now because
| new software matters, and it is a good experience if your
| hardware isn't brand new.
|
| Been playing around with Fedora Silverblue/Kinoite though,
| and watching bugs get fixed instead of working around them
| is surprisingly refreshing.
| srazzaque wrote:
| > At home, I no longer dual-boot because I vm.
|
| Curious, do you have a Windows host and Linux guest(s)? Or the
| other way around?
|
| I currently have Linux as my primary with a Windows guest OS
| for when I need it (e.g. Office - I actually think Excel is
| great - or if I'm doing any Win32/C++ dev). But, I'm thinking
| of doing it the other way around on my next PC.
| bitsandboots wrote:
| Windows host, because I play VR games and GPU passthrough
| would be inconvenient.
|
| I just fullscreen the linux VM and it feels native for all
| the non-3D tasks I do with it. Even media viewing is a
| breeze.
| vundercind wrote:
| My experience has been that Linux is significantly more
| stable under a VM on Windows or Mac than directly on all
| but the most conservative hardware. Fewer weird multimedia
| glitches, no needing to involve any part of the Linux
| wireless stack of any kind (Bluetooth especially, but also
| WiFi), fewer video driver issues, fewer program or
| windowing system crashes.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Because the virtual hardware is a more stable surface,
| than the plethora of hardware Linux is supposed to run
| on.
|
| That is what I have been doing since hardware
| virtualization became mainstream.
| skydhash wrote:
| Currently doing the same with macOS as the host. Still
| have the nice apps but with a better dev platform.
| kdtsh wrote:
| It wouldn't be up to scratch for my work anymore, but I've found
| the 2015 MacBook Pros to be a good compromise between quality
| hardware and being able to run a full blown free Unix-like
| without any trouble. (By 'my work' I mainly mean including Citrix
| and Microsoft 365, so this precludes most free Unix-like anyway.)
| hnarn wrote:
| The title for this blog post should be "I Miss BSD/Linux for
| Apple devices". Unsurprisingly, if you buy hardware from one of
| the most FLOSS hostile hardware manufacturers in existence, your
| BSD/Linux experience will not be great.
|
| > Why doesn't a great MacBook alternative exist?
|
| I really don't understand this question. Is the author seriously
| suggesting that MacBooks are objectively the best laptops for any
| use case and using something else just isn't an option? Am I
| taking crazy pills?
| Philpax wrote:
| The Apple Silicon MacBooks are very, _very_ good. They 're
| efficient, fast, well-built, have great peripherals, don't
| power themselves back on when you close the lid, and are
| generally the best laptops I have ever used.
|
| The worst part of them is macOS, and I hope that either Asahi
| Linux can get all of the hardware working correctly or the
| other laptop manufacturers can get their act together.
| Unfortunately, I suspect the former is more likely than the
| latter...
| sumuyuda wrote:
| There's still no USB-A support, so the dongle book was never
| truly fixed.
| area51org wrote:
| Given that the industry is trying to retire USB-A for good,
| this doesn't seem likely.
| throwaway1105q wrote:
| I haven't used USB-A single time since 2018... My USB-C
| display has it on its hub, but who cares...
| vundercind wrote:
| The vast majority of peripherals available at ordinary
| stores are still usb-a. If you just run into Target to
| grab [some peripheral] most or all options in that
| category will be usb-a.
| throwaway1105q wrote:
| Yeah but does anybody buy it? In my store the peripherals
| are covered in dust... And it's some cheap Chinese
| knockoff, nothing like the old high quality ones.
| vundercind wrote:
| Yes?
|
| My company's mostly Windows and the peripherals issued
| are all brand new and are all usb-a. We Mac weirdos have
| to dongle constantly or not use them. Even the non-Apple
| major brand Bluetooth wireless earbuds they issue have a
| usb-a plug on the end of the charging cable for the case.
| throwaway1105q wrote:
| I was scared of getting a Mac for years because of the
| dongles. Then I got one from work (they even gave me the
| dongle and I made fun of it) and turns out I never use
| any of it. And then I realized the USB-A port on my
| desktop front panel has been broken probably for years
| and I didn't notice.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I blame perhipheral manufacturers for clinging to USB-A for
| no reason. It's been 8 years, please let this connector die
| already.
| luyu_wu wrote:
| The chain of blame can be pushed further. Peripheral
| manufacturers laergely targrt desktop users, of which
| almost no motherboards support USB-C.
| bitsandboots wrote:
| >don't power themselves back on when you close the lid
|
| Huh? I wish. The thing is periodically blocked throughout the
| night on my pihole as it continues to send network requests
| even after I click the "sleep" button in the apple menu.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| > or the other laptop manufacturers can get their act
| together
|
| Microsoft is willing to sell you an ARM-based PC if you like.
| Qualcomm's efforts aren't quite up to Apple Silicon's par,
| but they aren't terrible either.
|
| Of course, if you are looking to put Linux on a PC I can
| definitely understand why Microsoft wouldn't be your first
| thought for your hardware vendor. It's a weird time we live
| in, if you remember (or are unfortunately stuck in) 90s
| Slashdot mindsets.
| strathos wrote:
| Main two things for me that (in my opinion) Apple does better
| than others are 1) excellent trackpad and 2) no air vents at
| the bottom of the laptop. With those two things I find MacBooks
| to be very usable on your lap, like for example in trains,
| airports, or even in an outdoor chair.
| int_19h wrote:
| MacBook Air (ARM) is fanless even.
| tmtvl wrote:
| I had an ASUS laptop die to overheating, so fanless sounds
| terrible. Does that thing just shut down when it starts
| getting hot or something?
| justin66 wrote:
| I don't think my M2 Air has ever reached a temperature
| you could describe as "hot."
| dmonitor wrote:
| It gets less hot than my iPhone
| Wytwwww wrote:
| It's basically an iPad (hardware wise) with a bigger
| screen and a keyboard attached. Why would that be an
| issue?
| int_19h wrote:
| It just doesn't get hot. If I remember correctly, there's
| a massive heatsink there that distributes it all, and
| having an aluminum body probably helps as well. Either
| way it's the most comfortable _lap_ top I've ever used
| for this exact reason (well, and the humongous haptic
| trackpad).
|
| Yet it's still fast enough to do development on it, never
| mind more mundane stuff like web browsing or watching
| movies. I'm not at all an Apple fan, but when people say
| that M* silicon is almost magic, they're not wrong.
| adamomada wrote:
| Have a search in this very thread for "laptop manufacturers
| just don't care". To me Apple seems to be the last one to give
| a shit
|
| So, why doesn't a great MacBook alternative exist? It's a valid
| question.
| vundercind wrote:
| Everyone seems to prefer to slot into some different niche in
| the market and leave Apple to have the "actually kinda decent
| laptops, sort-of" segment all to themselves with no actual
| competition.
|
| We need a _lot_ of trust-busting in general, but including
| among computer vendors.
| xandrius wrote:
| Yes, battery life, trackpad, monitor quality, performance
| (especially now with LLMs and MXs) and case are really hard to
| top.
|
| I think Dell has would have a chance to be great but they do
| lots of plasticky and heavy stuff.
| cies wrote:
| I use OpenSuSE Tumbleweed as my daily driver:
|
| * /home on it's own partition (having it as a subvolume of btrfs
| did not work out well with reinstalls) -- saves me a lot of time
| with reinstalls
|
| * docker works better (no need for an internal Linux VM, that is
| needed on macOS/windows)
|
| * installing tools that i used sparingly is so much easier:
| Inkscape/ GIMP/ LibreOffice/ Audacity/ cloc/ ripgrep/ tig/ iotop/
| htop/ DbBeaver
|
| * i dont truly trust any big corp's binaries
|
| * Firefox and Chromium/Thorium are solid browser options
|
| * easy to install dev tool chains: package management and
| opensource secured supply chains are not an afterthought
|
| * I feel since PipeWire and Wayland we come to a point were A/V
| "just works" for all my usecases
|
| * being on a rolling distro now for some years, and it does
| sometimes mess up, but rarely (resinstalls are quick) -- i prefer
| it over OS version upgrades on macOS/windows
|
| * i dont need an Apple ID, or hotmail account for ANYTHING and
| that keeps my blood from cooking
| thrownawayjests wrote:
| After running Linux (plain, crappy boring Ubuntu) as my daily
| driver for the last few years, I'm convinced that we're at the
| point where the only real barrier to wider adoption is software,
| and this is less and less of an issue the more we work in the
| browser.
|
| For your basic user, it's performant, simple, stable, and does
| everything a computer needs. Every time I boot up Windows it
| takes forever, I find that a new update that further fills my
| machine with crap requires a restart, I get super weird "news"
| and advertising thrown at me. I have no idea how normies put up
| with this.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > does everything a computer needs.
|
| This really comes down to this.
|
| If you can stabilize what you need, inevitably linux will catch
| up to where you are and you're set.
|
| If it's an always moving goalpost, the year of Linux on the
| desktop will always be next year, eternally.
| int_19h wrote:
| Hardware support can be a problem as well. There are many
| combinations that "just work" - definitely more so than 20 or
| even 10 years ago - but you still need to be careful with
| network cards, for example. And graphics is still kind of a
| mess, enough so that all major browsers are still either using
| whitelists to enable hardware acceleration on supported
| hardware (like Firefox), or straight up disable it by default
| on Linux (like Chrome).
|
| Which translates to the other problem that is battery life on
| laptops. I did a fairly simple test recently that basically
| opens Reddit main page in Firefox & Chrome and then scrolls it
| slowly until battery dies. Running on the same exact hardware -
| Thinkpad T14s AMD gen4 - the battery life was reduced by 30% on
| Linux with default settings (= no hardware acceleration in
| either browser). Manually enabling it means that test cannot
| complete at all because both browsers randomly crash.
|
| And then you look at battery life vs an ARM MacBook, and it's
| not even funny.
| mattpallissard wrote:
| > reduced by 30% on Linux with default settings
|
| With the default settings being the key there. I had the
| exact same laptop and was able to get idle power down under
| 3W.
|
| But to your point, that's a fair amount of friction for
| someone that understands all the moving points. It's
| insurmountable for the average user.
| dxuh wrote:
| Would you mind sharing some of the settings you changed
| there?
| jwells89 wrote:
| Power/battery tuning differing between manufacturers,
| models, and even specific SKUs within models is perhaps the
| greatest hurdle to be overcome. It makes baking those
| settings into distros by default impractical and means
| there isn't an easy string of commands that anybody can run
| to improve battery life on their Linux laptop.
| tracker1 wrote:
| One thing that bit me, was trying to get a trackpad
| working on a xxx-xx17-xxx model (17 for 17" display)...
| out of a lark, I tried searching for xxx-xx15-xxx and
| found the answer... I added a comment on the 17" model
| number to help anyone else that may not have otherwise
| seen the page. It was adding a few options to the boot
| loader that fixed it.
|
| I've also seen issues with wifi drivers, but those are
| usually fixed booting up wired with a widely supported
| USB to ethernet dongle, not too bad, but still annoying.
|
| For me, that is about it for my biggest issues, aside
| from getting an RX 5700 at launch, where the drivers
| didn't stabilize until the next LTS releases (about 6
| months later). I'd run alpha/beta kernels, which
| generally worked, and even tried Arch (btw) and both I
| got a black screen after updates. I went back to windows
| for a while, and then switched my main boot back to linux
| and haven't looked back after the Ads in start menu
| search results on my Windows Insiders install.
|
| For the most part, I've had very few issues in general,
| and only on initial setup. I've mostly used PopOS, and
| been exceedingly happy with it.
| wormius wrote:
| I'm not a laptop user so I alas never consider these
| things in my needs, but I imagine "Year of the Desktop"
| will be followed up with "Year of the Laptop"
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| For me the "Year of the Laptop" happened ages ago.
| Everything from old clunkers to a relatively modern HP
| Elitebook 840 G6... install Fedora, done. I think the
| fingerprint reader might be tough, and Bluetooth on Linux
| is truly a sad state of affairs. But everything else
| works out of the box, and that includes suspend/resume
| and other power management, the special keys, Wifi and so
| on. WebGL just works, no need to tweak a whitelist, and
| battery life is on par with when the thing was running
| Windows 10. With SSD, and a fan that hardly runs in light
| use, the Elitebook is a _sweet_ Linux machine.
|
| I even use it on the Displaylink type USB-C dock that my
| current work laptop came with. Installing the Displaylink
| driver was a bit of "old school Linux" since the
| installer was Ubuntu only. But not too traumatic, and
| dock/undock also works perfectly.
| int_19h wrote:
| Just to be clear, I meant the default browser settings
| specifically (i.e. whitelisted / no hardware acceleration).
| I didn't do anything special to try to optimize the OS as a
| whole.
|
| OTOH I was pleasantly surprised that all hardware generally
| worked, including even stuff like the fingerprint reader
| (so now I can use that to sudo in the terminal!). Although
| that did require spending some time in the console to
| enable it in PAM. I'd say that Linux runs great on that
| laptop overall, aside from battery life, which is not a big
| deal _if_ you mostly use your laptop plugged in.
| Ferret7446 wrote:
| Hence the existence of Chrome OS.
| hulitu wrote:
| > Hence the existence of Chrome OS.
|
| Which is useless besides browsing the internet.
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| Which is what 95 percent of computer use is now.
| nequo wrote:
| Unless you're an Emacs user. Then it is 100 percent.
| hollerith wrote:
| Emacs users spend 100% of their time in a web browser?
| nequo wrote:
| I shouldn't have to explain a joke[1] but yes: https://ww
| w.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/eww.html
|
| [1] This phrase is a self-deprecating remark about my own
| joke making abilities, not a slight at parent.
| RobotCaleb wrote:
| Did you mean for this to be as condescending or off-
| putting as it comes across? I'm really trying to be
| generous in my interpretation but I'm not sure how else
| to read it.
| nequo wrote:
| Condescending towards Emacs users? No.
|
| There's a general theme in Emacs users' testimonials that
| you end up doing everything in Emacs. For many that
| includes web browsing. Hence the joke.
|
| It doesn't include web browsing for me but no
| condescension intended. If you don't like my joke, that's
| okay. I'm sorry.
|
| Edit: Also not intended to be condescending towards your
| grandparent commenter. Apologies again.
| sillywalk wrote:
| It also runs Android apps, and has an integrated Linux VM
| that can be added with a click to run basically anything
| that runs on Debian.
| thefz wrote:
| Can not agree more. It finally struck a nice balance of
| simplicity for day to day usage and advanced features when
| needed. I have been pleasantly surprised discovering recently
| that Gnome Disks lets you create image files of single
| partitions or disks with just a couple of clicks.
| wormius wrote:
| Yeah, I've got friends who are open to the idea (even though
| they still think the driver situation is the same as 20 years
| ago - I won't promise there aren't problems, but I think
| overall it's much better than it used to be).
|
| The main complaint is: I need my Adobe. I need my Ableton. I
| need my Office.
|
| Some people actually need the official Office products, but I
| think for most users it's not necessary, though they get really
| uptight if you suggest it's not.
|
| Adobe is honestly one of the biggest problems I think, and the
| most likely to continue to cause an issue with adoption.
|
| Ableton can sorta work, but it's not perfect, but I can see
| them starting to pour resources into it to get it working
| better or even a proper port, but I could be wrong.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| As far as Ableton goes, have you tried Reaper? Reaper has a
| native Linux version and generally works quite well IMO. One
| of the better DAWs and certainly one of the cheapest to
| purchase a license for.
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| Reaper's great, but it and Ableton are focused on very
| different things. It's hard to come up with a workable
| analogy but they are probably at least as different as
| Photoshop and Illustrator are from one another.
| lagniappe wrote:
| I use ableton in linux, it works fine. What works amazing
| is Bitwig, which you'll find is like Ableton evolved, by
| some of the original developers of Ableton.
| vunderba wrote:
| Unless Reaper has drastically changed since the last time I
| used it, it's not even in the same ballpark as Ableton.
| Ableton strength is using it as a pattern based nonlinear
| editor and live production. I can't even imagine doing
| something like that in reaper.
|
| To me reaper is more like a superior version of audacity
| than a competitor to things like Logic Pro, FL Studio, etc.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > To me reaper is more like a superior version of
| audacity
|
| I can't tell about Ableton as i never used it, but Reaper
| is on a totally different planet compared to Audacity. I
| used Cakewalk Sonar (on Windows) for years until I
| discovered Reaper, and didn't look back. Then they made
| the Linux version which works like charm, although the
| Windows version runs extremely well with very low latency
| too using WINE. I'm all for using FOSS software, and it
| hurts me because Audacity is the "good guy" here, but
| it's really way way inferior compared to just everything
| else.
| INTPenis wrote:
| The worst thing about windows booting up is being lied to that
| the system is ready to use, when in fact everything is still
| sluggish for another 2 minutes and default apps are starting
| up.
|
| While on my Linux computer I consistently can immediately start
| using the system once I've logged in.
| wolvesechoes wrote:
| Ah yes, time. Not just time - 'free' time! It is so free people
| need to sacrifice their freedom in exchange for curated
| experience and long battery life to get it. What they are unable
| to sacrifice, though, is convenience and pleasure. And Touch ID.
|
| When freedom is at stake, some may sacrifice their lives on its
| altar, but worker bees will never sacrifice USB-C displays.
|
| Yes, I am a zealot.
| petrolejboj wrote:
| So far the ideal "portable" setup is MacbookPro M3 Pro with: -
| UTM VM for ArchLinux arm64 for all the linux stuf - UTM VM for
| Windows for ARM (use it only for retro games) - Crossover for
| occasional modern not AAA gaming
|
| Zero issues so far and I have all the benefits of Apple hardware
| wwalexander wrote:
| Desktop customization is largely the reason I learned Linux and
| programming. Over time I've come to abhor knobs and arbitrary
| decisions I must make as a user. I find macOS's opinionated,
| largely very thoughtful design a relief at this point.
| p0w3n3d wrote:
| It seems that there is now a HUGE problem with PDF support under
| Linux. Since Adobe stopped shipping acrobat reader to Linux, to
| get official support one needs to run Acrobat using Wine. That's
| horrible, and really discouraging to any person who works within
| a larger organisation that uses PDF.
|
| On the other side is the MacOS that has Preview which gives
| extensive possibilities to annotate and highlight PDF documents
| even if they are scans containing only jpgs inside.
| petepete wrote:
| I annotate and higlight text all the time with GNOME's document
| viewer. It works so well I hadn't even considered people might
| find it problematic.
|
| https://apps.gnome.org/en-GB/Evince/
|
| I realise it probably doesn't support some 'fancy' PDF stuff
| like signatures, but I don't use them.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| The simplest way to run Linux on any computer nowadays is via
| WSL2. You can have your cake and eat it these days. Windows 11 is
| capable of replacing Linux efficiently.
| a-dub wrote:
| thinkpads are still a pretty good bet for linux- although battery
| life is still lacking compared to aarch64 machines. the upcoming
| snapdragon elite t14s looks pretty promising on all fronts!
| tracker1 wrote:
| A few of the systems require a minor change in grub for the
| touchpad to work right. A few others require a USB to ethernet
| dongle to get wifi working.
| a-dub wrote:
| T,P,X models should be fine. check the arch wiki before
| purchasing. popular with kernel developers!
|
| daily driver has been a T, P or X series thinkpad running
| linux since ~2005/6.
|
| although, fair notice, kde 6 is hot off the presses and it
| will take some time to reach kde 5 levels of stability.
| ginko wrote:
| I mainly use linux day to day for a good 20+ years now but also
| own a macbook air for a couple of years (and now have a work
| macbook. I have to say I just don't see how it's supposed to be
| so much better than linux. Working with it feels like having one
| arm bound behind my back. Most things work, but everything takes
| twice as many clicks and some things are just not configurable
| (There's no mouse follows focus at all for instance).
|
| Open source software has to be installed with separate package
| managers like homebrew that don't properly integrate into the
| overall system like a distro package manager does. (it also
| requires the xcode toolchain which is a >1GB update every month
| or so)
| maximilianburke wrote:
| I hear this. I have Asahi sitting on a partition on my Mac and
| I'm itching to make it my primary. Once microphone support lands,
| I'll be able to move over. It's a real pain right now to have to
| reboot in order to join video calls, heh.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| As an ex-Linux and BSD user I share the feeling. But if I am
| honest to myself, I have to admit that I do not miss them, but my
| youth, friends, lack of responsibility and time to mess around
| with such things. Messing around with a new fancy distro for a
| day or two? Why not!
|
| macOS is fine, I use it for 10 years, know it well enough and
| have no windows/linux muscle memory anymore anyway. And if I
| would switch back, I would still stare at the same Alacritty with
| tmux and neovim.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I started using Linux (nixos first, now back to Arch) more
| frequently one year ago and I have a nice boring KDE desktop.
| Everything works pretty well and the UX is way ahead of OS X.
|
| In the past I was a full time user of KDE3/4 but I've used plenty
| of OpenBox, i3, sway et similia. In the last 8 years I ended up
| mostly on Mac, albeit I've installed Arch Linux on a 2015 Macbook
| Pro (and it was glorious).
|
| Funnily enough, I realised I'm at that age where I'm working only
| on my desk, so I don't really need to waste lithium batteries for
| a device that's always plugged in. And I'm tired of the Macbook
| wasting CPU cycles and getting as hot as a volcano on proprietary
| crappy software I can't change.
|
| Apple really needs to start hiring some software engineers; the
| hardware is pretty good but the OS is terribly bloated.
|
| It's a shame we still don't have non-Apple decent laptops, I hope
| things will change thanks to the shift to Arm and cellphone
| makers (who did a pretty good job with the quality of some
| Android devices).
| johnea wrote:
| I miss it too! It's been sad to watch the whole descent of the
| free software movement into just another avenue for corporate
| profit 8-(
|
| The original free software concept: that _users_ of s/w can
| develop and maintain s/w for their use (and all other user's
| use), thus implementing what users want/need, instead of what
| will makes the most money; has largely been displaced by the
| "open" model of getting other people to do part of your s/w
| dev/debug to reduce costs and increase profits.
|
| Like all powerful technologies, in the long run it's "success" is
| determined primarily by how much money it can make for the
| already outrageously wealthy...
| stuaxo wrote:
| This makes sense. It could be worth dual booting, and seeing how
| it goes - it may swing back to Linux.
|
| I totally agree with not trying UTM, it really isn't ready yet -
| I made the mistake of trying to use it on a work laptop for work,
| and ate a lot of time with various freezes... maybe in a few
| years it will be fine - dual boot is probably a better option,
| even more so once USBC display and intermal mics work.
| baq wrote:
| You can have Microsoft Linux in the form of WSL2 though and it's
| a damn good piece of software; Microsoft's saving grace on an
| otherwise - let's be honest here - idiotic win 11. It's almost
| worse than macOS.
|
| My ideal device would be a MacBook Air with a 100% functioning
| Linux - as in, audio, external displays, usb hubs, chargers etc
| just work. macOS is crapware and borderline a disgrace for the
| excellent hardware of the MacBook.
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