[HN Gopher] How many EV charging stations does the US need to re...
___________________________________________________________________
How many EV charging stations does the US need to replace gas
stations?
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 65 points
Date : 2024-05-27 11:46 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wired.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wired.com)
| nottorp wrote:
| Of course, whatever Wired says only works if everyone lives the
| suburb life style.
|
| In Europe you'd need a lot more public chargers.
| moooo99 wrote:
| One could argue that in Europe, you'd have a much easier time
| to design the infrastructure in such a way that reliance on
| cars in general is substantially reduced, hence also removing
| demand for EV chargers of any kind
| redserk wrote:
| Europe isn't this monolithic 100% hyperdense urban utopia
| Americans tend to think it is. There are a lot of suburbs and
| rural areas where people still use cars.
| moooo99 wrote:
| I am aware that this is the case, especially since I am
| European. However, this is a non-argument against my
| initial claim.
|
| The top comment made a point implying that having home
| charging stations is only possible if you're living that
| suburban lifestyle (i.e. single family home/duplex with
| designated parking) but in a city with on street parking it
| is not.
|
| Howver, most (bigger) european cities have some resemblance
| of decent public transport infrastructure and are less car-
| centered than US cities, making the move to non-car
| transportation much easier than in the US. For rural areas
| and suburbs, where people have to rely on cars, the initial
| argument doesn't even apply considering they are living the
| "suburban lifestyle" that has been deemed a non-issue from
| the go
| nottorp wrote:
| Nice theory but while Europe is better than the US in that
| respect, I believe the only place where that actually works
| is the likes of Japan...
|
| [Bet that some Japanese HNer will show up in 4... 3... 2...
| 1... to complain about _their_ traffic though.]
| Symbiote wrote:
| > As a result of the early efforts to make the switch to EVs,
| the US currently has 188,600 public and private charging ports,
| and 67,900 charging stations, according to data collected by
| the US Department of Energy
|
| and
|
| > There were more than 630,000 charge points in the bloc at the
| end of 2023
| (https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/most-eu-
| countr...)
|
| so Europe (the EU) is already well ahead.
| azinman2 wrote:
| The title literally says the US. Every country is different.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Well over half of the population owns or rents a detached or
| semi-detached home with plausible driveway charging. Yes we
| need to work on the people who don't have that option, but it
| is totally valid to observe that a huge chunk of people only
| need public chargers a couple times a year.
| dymk wrote:
| Seattle is rapidly installing EV chargers on power poles for
| public use in dense urban areas
| 201984 wrote:
| Only 25 for the whole city so far, and with a 60% markup over
| standard electricity rates (0.21/kWh vs 0.13/kWh).
| BurningFrog wrote:
| This is assuming that electrical cars are "filled up" the same
| way as gas cars are. This is very far away from being as fast and
| convenient as filling up a gas tank in 1-2 minutes.
|
| I like the model that you swap your low charge battery with a
| fully charged one. That would require some new technology.
| sgt wrote:
| In Norway, people charge at home. EV stations are mainly for
| roadtrips. The gas station comparison does not make sense.
| xenospn wrote:
| I'm actually confused about Norway, you see a lot of electric
| cars parked down the street but no one has a garage in Norway
| (in the city, at least), and I haven't seen many cars
| actually plugged in. Where does everyone charge?
| pornel wrote:
| In the UK supermarkets have fast chargers. You park, plug
| in, go shopping, return to a fully charged car (similarly
| at pubs, cafes, gyms, etc.)
|
| BEVs don't have to be plugged in like cellphones. In city
| driving one full charge can suffice for a whole week of
| commuting and errands.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| How is the price for fast chargers in the UK?
|
| In the Netherlands it's crazy, something like 3-4x the
| price of home charging and close to 10x what you would
| "loose" on using your own solar power instead of selling
| it to the grid.
|
| For most hybrids using a fast charger is over 2x more
| expensive per mile than using petrol.
| sgt wrote:
| Most people live outside the cities, so the more common
| scenario is having a house and a garage. If you live in an
| apartment building, there might be charging points. People
| parked on the street in the city streets have fewer
| options.
| ein0p wrote:
| In the US as well. I have to admit however that I didn't
| think of this as that much of a big deal before we bought a
| Tesla. The FUD about charging that's out there is really
| effective. But then it turned out I can even charge it out of
| a common household outlet and there's really no problem at
| all until you need to drive 300+ miles
| watt wrote:
| Forget it. Folks have been thinking about this battery swap
| thing for years and years, and it is not going to happen.
|
| However what I like about NIO model is that you might be able
| to swap out a smaller, lighter city-driving oriented battery to
| a large 100kWh+ one when you go on a road trip. And then swap
| it back when you're back home.
| rob74 wrote:
| See also
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_%28company%29
|
| What I however still don't understand is why this isn't at
| least offered in niches where it would make even more sense,
| like electric buses. If you have a fleet of these buses,
| minimizing the charging downtime should be a priority, right?
| Plus, in a bus it should be easier to find a suitable place
| for the battery pack where it can be accessed easily.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Yea, every battery needs to be checked thoroughly before
| getting back into circulation.
|
| Just one idiot sabotaging batteries is enough to collapse the
| whole business.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| That's much more difficult than throwing an adulterant in
| the bulk tanks at a gas station which would let you destroy
| hundreds of vehicles.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| What's the easy way to get to the bulk tanks?
| theshrike79 wrote:
| The bulk tanks aren't in my closed garage for a week,
| where I can do whatever I want to them in the privacy of
| my own home.
| vel0city wrote:
| You know what's really convenient? Never having to stop to fuel
| up for something like 90% of the miles I drive.
|
| I spend way more time fueling my ICE than my EV. It's a pain to
| have to go out of my way to a fueling station. It's far less
| convenient than just plugging in every few days at home or at
| the office.
| audunw wrote:
| > and convenient as filling up a gas tank in 1-2 minutes.
|
| But you can't just walk away from a gasoline car when it's
| filling. And gas stations aren't very attractive destination to
| do much of anything.
|
| Where I'm from almost every roadside McDonalds has fast
| charging. And almost every road trip I've taken where I've had
| to fast charge we've taken the kids to a McDonalds for a short
| break and finished charging long before we were finished eating
| and doing bathroom breaks.
|
| I haven't really owned an ICE. (Used my parents cars quite a
| lot though). Our first car was EV 9 years ago. But I'm fairly
| sure ICE would be significantly less convenient for us than EV.
| Especially with the newer one we recently got that has a more
| reasonable battery size, which we've never even had to fast
| charge once. Even on road trips. We never go anywhere we don't
| need/want to go anyway. So having to go to a gas station just
| to fill the car with gas would be a significant inconvenience.
|
| You wouldn't want a phone that you'd have to take to a phone
| station to fill with phone juice would you? Even if it lasted
| longer on a fill-up (say two weeks)
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Of course you can walk away from a gas car while it's
| filling. Where'd you get that idea?
| ghaff wrote:
| The signs at pretty much every gas pump in America?
|
| Plus it just seems like a stupid idea given that I have far
| less than 100% confidence in automatic cutoffs especially
| given the potentially serious consequences of a failure.
| jjav wrote:
| > The signs at pretty much every gas pump in America?
|
| I have to say I've never seen such a sign. Admittedly I
| don't read every sign on the pump so who knows.
|
| I nearly always walk inside to the store while the tank
| fills.
| orev wrote:
| There are number of states in the US where this isn't
| allowed, and the latch that holds the fill trigger open has
| been removed from the handle. Sure you can walk away, but
| the tank won't keep filling.
| qingcharles wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the USA is the only country I've found
| these latches in, too.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Why do you suppose that might be? Difficulty: if you
| think the latches are a bad idea, back up your point with
| actual statistics.
| orev wrote:
| It's not hard to extrapolate that it's a safety feature
| in case the auto-shutoff valve malfunctions and, when the
| tank is full, you'd end up with a dangerous and damaging
| fuel spill if someone isn't standing there monitoring it.
| If you can't walk away, the risk of this goes down a lot.
|
| Also, people often start the pump and get back into the
| car while it fills. When it's full, they get out of the
| vehicle which generates static electricity (often in
| winter months where it's dry and wool or other clothing
| increases this) and has the risk of discharging on the
| handle, sparking a fire.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| _When it's full, they get out of the vehicle which
| generates static electricity (often in winter months
| where it's dry and wool or other clothing increases this)
| and has the risk of discharging on the handle, sparking a
| fire._
|
| An excellent example of a point with no actual statistics
| behind it.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't think they're a bad idea and I appreciate them on
| a cold morning. But I have had them not shut off on a a
| couple of occasions and it's certainly a good idea to
| keep your eye on them. They're not failsafe.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| There are other states where you're not even allowed to
| pump your own gas at all for "safety." (Two, although I
| understand that Oregon has walked it most of the way
| back.) Like prohibitions against unattended filling,
| these law have no statistical basis.
| dude187 wrote:
| Well the reality is that sometimes the pumps don't shut
| off. I've seen it happen. It's not a statistics thing as
| much as just simply reality
| 1123581321 wrote:
| That isn't reality. It effectively never happens. Maybe
| once in your lifetime might see it happen to someone
| else, if you frequent stations with old pumps.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > not even allowed to pump your own gas at all for
| "safety."
|
| It's a jobs program, not a safety program.
| sweettea wrote:
| Its unsafe, and there are warning signs everywhere warning
| you to supervise the fuelling and not leave it unattended.
| You could walk away from a fuelling car... but the failure
| mode of burning down the whole gas station is so severe it
| seems a poor idea.
| bdcravens wrote:
| You "can" but if anything happens, you'll be liable.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Cite a single instance in which "something happened" when
| someone ducked into the 7-11 for a snack or a bathroom
| break while refueling. You'll have to dig for it, as such
| issues are vanishingly rare.
|
| Fact is, this practice is universal, at least in the US
| where latches are provided on the pump handles.
|
| Fact is, 99.99999% of the time, it's fine.
| dude187 wrote:
| The times I've seen it happen will suffice
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Welp, can't argue with that logic.
|
| Of course, it should go without saying that nobody should
| walk away from the pump for much longer than it takes to
| fill the tank, if only because it's a douchy move to tie
| up a gas pump for longer than you need it. But if shutoff
| failures were anywhere near as common as you seem to
| think, the latches would be prohibited everywhere.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| The big signs that say the process must be supervised by an
| adult?
| sokoloff wrote:
| I've only seen a requirement that it be supervised by a
| licensed driver (not all of whom are legally adults).
|
| It would be a pain for a 16 year old to be able to drive
| but not to dispense fuel.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Oh good point - I'd internalized them as "someone has to
| supervise and it can't be a child" but yeah 18+ wouldn't
| make sense, would it?
| devilbunny wrote:
| I drive past a gas station every time I go to or from work.
| And if I could stop off there and get two weeks of charge out
| of my phone with a five-minute fill-up, I would, because
| that's way better than having to remember to plug it in.
|
| I'm sure it's nice to have a car that is always ready to go,
| and I don't think EVs are bad, but let's not pretend that
| gasoline or diesel fuel isn't _really_ easy for most people,
| most of the time. The only time I ever had to go out of my
| way regularly for gas was in college, and they wouldn't have
| had charging points in the mass parking lots anyway.
| mindslight wrote:
| I don't have an EV but I've got the complete opposite view
| as you. Having my car always sitting around full and ready
| to go would be awesome. Leaving home in one direction, gas
| stations are plentiful and competitively priced. In the
| other direction, they are scarce and overpriced. Lately
| we've been doing a bunch of trips in the scarce direction,
| so I invariably end up digging into the cache of
| lawnmower/generator gas to solve the immediate problem,
| rather than going twenty minutes out of the way or paying
| the Dane-geld to fill up at an overpriced station. An EV
| would make it so I would _never_ have to think about
| refueling, except for long trips for which I already have
| to think about rest stops.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| > having to remember to plug it in
|
| I have had an electric car for eight years now. I think I
| may have missed plugging it in twice, as I got distracted
| by unloading. Neither time a big problem as my regular
| commute is 15-20% charge. As I step out of the car I walk
| past the cable. It takes 5 seconds to plug it in.
|
| My small solar panel installation on the garage deliver 4
| MWh in a year, which is about what the car uses. Albeit not
| exactly when the car needs it, but that is covered by my
| share of the wind power co-op I am part of, and of course
| the rest of the grid. Cheaper than gas (by a lot), no
| cancerous fumes and less climate emissions. Not going back
| from that.
| terryf wrote:
| > But you can't just walk away from a gasoline car when it's
| filling. And gas stations aren't very attractive destination
| to do much of anything.
|
| That's probably a US (or maybe some other places) thing but
| you certainly can do that here in Estonia. I do it all the
| time - start the pumping and then go inside to the gas
| station to buy a drink or whatever. Especially with the in-
| app payment for gas it's great.
|
| Never heard of anyone having an accident with it either...
| jjav wrote:
| > And gas stations aren't very attractive destination to do
| much of anything.
|
| You don't _need_ to do much of anything because the fillup
| takes like 2-3 minutes max.
|
| It's enough time to go buy a bottle of water or something at
| the attached convenience store, but then you're done and
| ready to go.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > filling up a gas tank in 1-2 minutes
|
| It doesn't help the comparison to lie about the time. If you
| have a smaller gas tank and the pump can fill at it's maximum
| speed, you can fill in 1-2 minutes from the moment you put the
| nozzle in. As a practical matter, you're rarely getting in and
| out of a gas station in under 5 minutes, and only then if it's
| completely empty when you arrive. When I'm filling up our
| pickup, it takes a good bit of time -- the pump rarely runs at
| full speed or the vapor pressure sensor trips, the tank is
| pretty big, and there's usually a few cars in line in front of
| me. 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic.
|
| Most EVs only need a "fill up" on a road trip, and AAA puts the
| average road trip refueling stop at 15 minutes. The technology
| in place today is adequate to do the same with EVs, and it only
| gets better every year. Battery swapping was a cute idea for a
| while but kinda pointless now.
|
| Of course, all of this talk about time completely ignores that
| an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling
| their vehicle. 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive home, full
| every morning. Imagine trying to sell someone on the idea of
| going the other direction "Hey, buy this fancy car, it's great,
| but you have to take it to a dedicated location periodically
| just to keep it fueled up."
| ItsBob wrote:
| > 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic.
|
| Blimey! Lord only knows where you live that it can take that
| long. I can count on one hand the number of times it's taken
| anything like 10 minutes over the years and they were during
| crises!
|
| In reality, even if I have to wait for a free pump, my car is
| at 100% range in 5 mins when I pay at the pump by using my
| credit card.
|
| I want my car filled to the brim any time I go to the petrol
| station (gas station to our friends over in the colonies :D).
| That's just how I roll. And I know many others who are the
| same. I also know some that just put in PS10-PS15 at a time,
| mainly due to finance constraints tbh.
|
| To "fill" an electric car to 100% isn't feasible in 2 hours,
| let alone 5 mins. Even if it took just 20 minutes to "fill"
| it is still shit compared to my current diesel.
|
| As a consumer, if I have to join a queue for hours [0] then
| to hell with that! However, with my diesel, it's literally 5
| minutes once a week and I'm full up.
|
| In addition, I run my car until 50 - 100 miles left in the
| tank and I don't get bent out of shape when the light comes
| on at < 50 miles. In an EV I'd shit bricks if that happened.
| I'd have to change my behaviour to many smaller topups.
|
| The simple fact is that we have a chicken and egg scenario
| with EV's vs charging points/charging time at this time and I
| don't see it changing any time soon.
|
| Anecdote: I just remember something I saw 3 weeks ago. I was
| in a town near where I live. I parked up to walk to a shop
| about 2 mins away and I walked past a girl at a charging
| station staring at the big charger thingy while on her phone.
| I couldn't hear what she was saying but I could see that the
| charging flap on her car was open. I was in the shop for
| about 10 minutes and came back the same way and she was still
| there, this time poking away at her phone and the cable still
| wasn't in her car but the charging flap was still open. No
| idea what the problem was but it caught my attention. Anyway,
| just thought I'd share.
|
| Edit: Something else to mention - Many people round where I
| live are in Victorian flats with almost no parking nearby.
| It's not umcommon to park streets away from where you
| actually live... they'll not buy electric for the most part.
|
| [0] - https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/video-massive-
| line-of-e...
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > To "fill" an electric car to 100% isn't feasible in 2
| hours, let alone 5 mins. Even if it took just 20 minutes to
| "fill" it is still shit compared to my current diesel.
|
| It takes me 0 minutes to fill my EV. Plug in at night and
| full in the morning (and pre-heated / de-iced on an
| automatic schedule too). Going somewhere else and standing
| for 5 minutes once a week isn't something I'd rush back to.
|
| Edit: My anecdote is about my mum filling up the car with
| petrol instead of diesel because the handle of the pump was
| black. You don't want to know how long we waited for that.
| ItsBob wrote:
| The pre-heating/de-icing does sound nice, I'll give you
| that but EV's just do not work if you live in a flat and
| unfortunately in and around the cities in the UK there
| are millions living in flats.
|
| Of course, many living in flats won't have a car so
| that's moot but walk up any street with Victorian 4 floor
| flats and you'll not see a single parking space available
| outside them: they're all taken, all the time, but not
| necessarily by the people that live immediately next to
| them.
|
| Even if they do manage to park right outside their flat,
| they won't be trailing a cable from their window :D
|
| For me, EV's do not make sense for a significant portion
| of the people driving in the UK. Perhaps the majority. I
| don't have numbers to back that up but my argument about
| flats still stands.
|
| What I do think makes sense is hybrids (assuming cost
| parity!). Put a small 30-mile battery in new cars. Let it
| charge from braking. Use it only when going from 0 - 30
| or even just below 30 only and I bet you'd significantly
| reduce your fuel bills (and carbon if that's part of your
| reasoning for purchase).
|
| I drive a 9 yo Hyundai diesel so I have a cheap car
| anyway.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| I'm in the UK. There are a million EVs already out there
| yet I'm the only one on my street of 100 houses with one.
| Each of those houses has a drive.
|
| They are not for everyone but there is plenty of room for
| growth. It costs me 3p/mile to run it too saving me about
| PS100/month.
|
| Self charging hybrids are a waste of time. My Hyundai i20
| 1.1 diesel got 60mpg while my colleagues hybrid got 50.
| Plug-in hybrids are slightly better, but you've got
| additional complexity and all the maintenance of an ICE.
| Plus you are cycling the small battery more. 1,000 cycles
| on a 250 mile battery is 250,000 miles - on a 30 mile
| battery it's 30,000.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| well I fill up a sedan (~13 gallons), So 2-3 minutes fits
| unless I'm in a long line. I'd only be spending 15+ minutes
| in a Costco line.
|
| >all of this talk about time completely ignores that an EV
| driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling
| their vehicle.
|
| Depends on how readily you have access to a charging port at
| home/work. if you have no garage to park in and charge
| overnight with, you're pretty much stuck at some public space
| for 30 minutes minimum (assuming fast charging).
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > Depends on how readily you have access to a charging port
| at home/work. if you have no garage to park in and charge
| overnight with, you're pretty much stuck at some public
| space for 30 minutes minimum (assuming fast charging).
|
| Right; as the article puts it,
|
| > The majority of today's American EV owners charge at
| home, but more than 20 percent of US households don't have
| access to consistent off-street parking where they can plug
| in overnight. The public charging network, meanwhile, can
| be spotty, and drivers have complained that chargers aren't
| always well maintained or even functioning.
|
| Although, that said, it's possible that getting 80% of cars
| to be EVs would be a big win already; assuming the number
| really is 20% that may not be a _big_ problem.
| idunnoman1222 wrote:
| People who rely on street parking don't buy EV
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time
| -- the pump rarely runs at full speed or the vapor pressure
| sensor trips, the tank is pretty big, and there's usually a
| few cars in line in front of me. 15-20 minutes is a lot
| closer to realistic.
|
| I'm willing to believe that it takes 15-20 minutes to fill
| your pickup, but that's a far outlier. If I was guessing, I'd
| say that your tank is a factor larger than most cars, and I'd
| also say that I can't remember the vapor pressure sensor
| malfunctioning like that and that's also skewing your data.
| rascul wrote:
| It takes about 3-4 minutes to fill my 30 gallon tank from
| near empty at the Murphy's in town here.
|
| 15-20 minutes seems crazy unless it's a huge tank in the
| bed of the truck. And I've not had a vapor issue with them
| either, they fill at full speed.
| jjav wrote:
| > When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time
|
| Well yes if you have a huge pickup that can take a while. I
| have 35 gallon tank on the pickup and it does take a while
| (never measured it so not sure how many minutes).
|
| But on our regular cars, it takes less than 2 minutes to fill
| the tank.
|
| > Of course, all of this talk about time completely ignores
| that an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year
| refueling their vehicle.
|
| Well the EV driver spends less "CPU time" (using computer
| analogy) since they plug it in and go do something else. But
| the wall-clock-time is orders of magnitude higher so if the
| battery is empty and you need to go somewhere, it's not
| happening very soon.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Yeah, my first thought on seeing the title question was "well,
| they charge slower than you can refill gas, so obviously you
| need more chargers than existing gas stations, though of course
| most people don't have gas stations at home so it's a kind of
| messy comparison".
| grecy wrote:
| > _as fast and convenient as filling up a gas tank in 1-2
| minutes._
|
| I recently drove to the airport in a bit of a rush in a small
| 4-cylinder car. Drove straight up to pump that was basically
| touching the road I was on, tapped credit card, authorized for
| $100 and opened cap at same time. Stuffed the pump in and held
| it at max flow. 45l of gas later, cap back on, pump away and
| moving again.
|
| I don't think it would be possible to be faster.
|
| Total time stopped: 7 minutes.
|
| I'd love to know how much range you're adding to your ICE
| vehicle after pumping gas for 1-2 minutes.
| pornel wrote:
| Fast DC chargers add 7 to 13 miles of range per minute
| (charging is fastest when the battery is almost empty).
|
| _Competent_ charging networks also accept contactless cards
| or even automatically bill your account when you plug in.
| dymk wrote:
| I can tell you from experience that leaving my EV to charge in
| my driveway overnight is way, way more convenient than stopping
| for gas (and paying a lot more for it).
|
| I drive a lot, and I've ran into a situation only once where I
| had to find a charging station away from home. It just doesn't
| happen nearly as often as people worry.
| bluedino wrote:
| If you forget to charge overnight you're stuck waiting. If
| you forget to get gas, you can just go get gas and be on your
| way in a few minutes
| pornel wrote:
| * BEVs need to be plugged in about once a week (for a
| median US commute). If you forget one day, you can plug in
| another day, or day after.
|
| * DC fast chargers can add 100 miles of range in 10
| minutes.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| > and paying a lot more for it
|
| Do you have a low electricity rate?
|
| A petrol car would use around 0.03 gallons per mile (33 mpg).
| At $ 4 per gallon that's $ 0.12 per mile.
|
| A Tesla model S does around 0.3 kWh per mile. So to get to
| the same cost per mile your electricity price would have to
| be below $ 0.40 per kwh.
|
| In a lot of places electricity isn't (much) below $ 0.40 per
| kwh.
| Thrymr wrote:
| Nearly everywhere in the US is below $0.40/kWh. The average
| nationwide is $0.17/kWh. Only a handful of cities in
| California and Hawaii are over $0.40 (those places have the
| highest gas prices too). Most people will pay less than
| half as much to charge at home.
|
| ref: https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergy
| prices...
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| My overnight rate is $0.02/kwh
|
| $0.40/kwh is an absurd embarrassment for the local
| government. Move or vote them out.
| jjav wrote:
| > My overnight rate is $0.02/kwh
|
| Where in the world is this?!
| jjav wrote:
| > In a lot of places electricity isn't (much) below $ 0.40
| per kwh.
|
| Here in my corner of Silicon Valley, electricity is _never_
| below that price! Thanks PG &E.
|
| Off-peak rate (starts at midnight) is 44.2 c/kWh which is
| as cheap as it gets.
|
| (Peak rate in the afternoon after 3pm is 71.3 c/kWhw)
| MathMonkeyMan wrote:
| I've heard that the issues with the "swap the battery" model
| are:
|
| 1. The battery is one of the most expensive parts of the car.
| People won't want to swap it for some random battery, and you
| risk an illicit market for swapped out "good" batteries. Sure,
| if swapping is very common, then batteries are fungible and
| maybe it all evens out. I doubt it, though.
|
| 2. Batteries are large, heavy, and not necessarily centrally
| placed. You'd need some sort of winch/harness/crane system,
| which is dangerous and expensive to automate. Even if you
| figure it out, swappable batteries might be a negative design
| constraint for electric cars (e.g. "what if we want to put
| battery cells throughout the body of the car?").
|
| I also like the model, but how could it be made to work well?
| BurningFrog wrote:
| This assumes the car has one big battery.
|
| What if it has a number of smaller ones that can easily be
| swapped out by one person?
|
| Or maybe one big unswappable battery, and 1-3 smaller
| swappable ones?
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| You need to calculate how many charging stations you need at time
| of peak demand, like Thanksgiving weekend when half the country
| is making a road trip.
| sloowm wrote:
| I don't think building a bunch of year round useless charging
| capacity is useful. But I also think relying on car
| infrastructure for Thanksgiving is a bad idea and that hasn't
| stopped the US.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| So what _is_ your solution? Because if your answer starts
| with "people should just stop traveling for holidays" then
| it's not going to work.
| mdorazio wrote:
| If people want to drive during peak seasons, let them wait
| a few extra minutes at chargers? This seems like a problem
| that supply and demand will solve pretty efficiently.
| bitmasher9 wrote:
| The concern is that problems like Thanksgiving will
| decrease the demand for EVs.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Sure, if it's just a few minutes. I've heard of 4 hour
| waits at Thanksgiving. If it's that or worse "supply and
| demand" will result in people buying gasoline vehicles
| instead of electric vehicles.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Building anything to match peak demand is stupid.
|
| Like should we build every stadium so big that it can fit every
| Swiftie that wants to see the concert?
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| We already have infrastructure to handle Thanksgiving travel.
| Humans react very strongly when you take something away from
| them.
| redserk wrote:
| Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that
| far too many people overestimate their driving habits.
|
| A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for your
| average driver assuming you can park the car for several hours. I
| would hope the vast majority of Americans who have access to a
| driveway will be able to find a block of time for this. Perhaps
| this duration may be found overnight when one sleeps.
|
| If the worst happens and you need to travel for an emergency, you
| just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast charger. You'd
| only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. I would
| place bets that most people do not keep their gas cars filled to
| 100% in case they need to do that weekly emergency 300-mile drive
| that everyone seems to have.
|
| The bigger and most realistic issue is capacity for travel
| rushes. When everyone's driving to relatives for the holidays,
| finding a line at chargers isn't ideal. Fortunately this isn't a
| problem in the vast majority places today and I hope continued
| investment in fast charging networks ensures this remains a
| limited problem.
| NegativeK wrote:
| I was charging my car on a 120V, 15A circuit (12A draw to the
| car) for over a year. I'd use about 8kWh per day with a 20 mile
| round trip commute + extras; that translated to needing about
| 5.5 hours of charging.
|
| It really was fine, but it was near the limit of what's
| practical without using a fast charger. Extra trips around town
| would put me at a deficit, and it'd take a few nights of
| charging to bring things back up to my set point of 80%.
| Additionally, I had to think a few days out for when I'd know
| I'd be doing a bunch of driving to make sure I gave myself
| enough buffer. Now, having a charging circuit that can put out
| over 9kW means I can think about it a lot less.
|
| But I thoroughly agree with you: a normal mains outlet is often
| fine, and holiday road trips can be messy.
| bbarnett wrote:
| You know, there's a car train between the northern US and
| further south. Your car goes on one train car, you get to
| relax in the train. And I know the UK/france tunnel is like
| this too.
|
| Seems like an optimal solution in some respects, if
| optimized. For example, millions of Canadians travel to
| Florida each year for the winter, a lot by car. If such a
| train ran once a day, it would help many with range anxiety
| for such cases.
|
| But imagine if major cities had such trains between them
| daily? These can still carry commuters without cars, too! And
| of course, we don't need everyone to be covered by this
| solution today, because the goal is to keep the transition to
| electric happening. This would help.
| RandomCitizen12 wrote:
| Looking at prices, the chunnel car shuttle seems to be $200
| for a 50 mile trip. If a regular American car was driving
| this distance it would cost about $10 in gas.
|
| I don't see this catching on for links between cities.
| pxndxx wrote:
| the chunnel goes _under the sea_ for 30 miles.
| RandomCitizen12 wrote:
| Yes. But most of the cost of the ticket will be operating
| expenses for the train and associated service. The cost
| of building under a body of water, which is large, does
| not make most of the ticket price difference.
| Symbiote wrote:
| The cost of the Channel Tunnel (by car) is determined by
| what the market will sustain: the only alternative to
| move a vehicle is a ferry. The train is a bit faster.
|
| A more realistic comparison is something like Villach in
| Austria to Edirne in Turkey, which is 1400km by road, and
| EUR259 one-way for a car plus EUR149 for one person
| (https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm).
| RandomCitizen12 wrote:
| For comparison, math for the Villach to Edirne trip comes
| up with USD 158 in gas for the average US car mileage and
| gas price for 1400km, versus USD 443 for the car + person
| tickets.
| abenga wrote:
| I'd gladly pay 300 dollars not to drive 1400km. Once or
| twice a year, I drive 320km, and I think about twice that
| (to and fro) is the limit of what I am reasonably willing
| to drive over a couple of days.
| yurishimo wrote:
| Those are rookie numbers. I used to drive 100km for
| dinner sometimes or to visit friends on a Saturday
| afternoon. This is in a major US metro.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Driving 100km on a straight highway with driver assist is
| nothing.
|
| Driving 100km on a nauseating mountain serpentine can
| easily take 2-3x longer.
|
| But yeah, 300 dollars in Turkey is a lot of money that
| most people will be willing to save.
| Symbiote wrote:
| With the average EU consumption (6.0L/100km) and the
| average price (EUR1.59) it's EUR133.
|
| (Though for a journey this long people with multiple cars
| would probably be taking the larger one.)
|
| The train costs more, but means families can play with
| their children (around a table) rather than having them
| stuck in the back seats for hours, and probably part or
| all of the journey is overnight.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Yes, it does. It does to recoup costs, even decades
| later, and it does so because the alternative is a ferry,
| and so they can charge this price.
|
| Also a lot of the cost is load/unload time.
| shkkmo wrote:
| There is one single car train route on the east coast that
| goes between Virginia and Florida with no stops.
|
| I am skeptical about the ease of scaling this, especially
| given the state of non-car distance travel on Amtrak.
| rascul wrote:
| I looked into this a few years ago. It cost more and took
| longer than if I just drove it. Not sure how that
| calculation would work out today, though.
| gessha wrote:
| People will come up with the craziest solutions to problems
| solvable with 200 year old technology (trains). Why you
| need these heavy metal boxes instead of taking a train is
| beyond me. Cars are optimal for trips below 100-ish miles.
| Anything above is high speed train and airplanes.
| LargeWu wrote:
| You're making a very big assumption that once you get
| dropped off by the train at your destination that you
| aren't going to need a vehicle once you're there.
| xipix wrote:
| Rent one?
| neltnerb wrote:
| It's definitely worth reminding anyone that this is why
| you need train stations to have good bus service to the
| surrounding area. You can't even take a commuter rail (in
| a city with decent rail transit) unless your destination
| has good bus service or a friend to pick you up.
|
| These things come hand in hand, if you want to make it
| work things either need to be walking distance from the
| station or with reasonably frequent buses. If a bus comes
| once an hour (actually the case in my city off rush-hour)
| it may as well not exist.
| Lio wrote:
| Or you take a folding bike with you. Brompton even make
| an electric version for those that need it.
| throwthrowuknow wrote:
| Such an easy solution, all we need to do is raise every
| city and suburb in North America to the ground and
| rebuild them around a massively expanded rail network
| which we also need to build. It would be nice if NA
| cities were already amenable to walking and public
| transit and served by ubiquitous passenger rail but
| there's a century of car infrastructure instead that
| nothing but a century of overhaul will fix.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| > it'd take a few nights of charging to bring things back up
| to my set point of 80%
|
| But is that an issue? As long as you always have enough juice
| to get to a fast charger, and you can always get back to 80%
| by Friday morning, isn't that enough?
|
| Sure, it's nice to have a 9kW charger, and I'm glad I do. But
| if I would have been forced to pay $5K to upgrade my mains
| connection I would likely have just kept the $5K and charged
| on 120V.
| LinAGKar wrote:
| > that translated to needing about 5.5 hours of charging
|
| How much time do you have available for charging? I'd have
| thought you'd spend a lot more than 6 hours a day at home.
| And chargers at work would allow charging the car near
| constantly when it's not being driven (other than days when
| you travel elsewhere), so I think that's an important part of
| transitioning to EVs.
| eurleif wrote:
| Your daily travel was around half of the average
| American's[0], and as you said, that was near the limit of
| what's practical. It follows that for the average American, a
| normal outlet is not fine.
|
| [0] https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-
| distance-us...
| SoftTalker wrote:
| But using two outlets, on opposite phases, would give you
| double the voltage. Might be too much to expect people to
| identify two suitable outlets and have a "Y"extension lead
| that would bring them together.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Somewhere a copy of the NEC is bursting into flames.
|
| You'd be better of installing a new circuit with proper
| equiptment. Most homes would be able to at least
| accommodate a 20amp 220v socket, which takes about 40% of
| the charging time of a regular socket (15amp 110).
| amluto wrote:
| OTOH I see no fundamental reason that one couldn't build
| an EVSE that connected to two different outlets and drew
| from both of them. Two branch circuits supplying the same
| device is not especially rare.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I've never seen that. With the right protection circuits
| it could work safely. However, most garages seem to only
| have one branch anyways, so might as well add a 20amp+
| 220v branch.
| toast0 wrote:
| In a (large, recently constructed) garage, it seems
| likely that you've got multiple circuits with outlets. If
| you've got multiple outside outlets, they're probably all
| on the same circuit. If the hots are the same phase, I
| don't know if there's a way to determine if they're
| behind the same breaker or not. If the hots are on
| different phases, you need to return to each neutral or
| the gcfi that's likely to be present on an outdoor outlet
| will trip.
| rblatz wrote:
| If you are going to that effort do a 220v with a 60amp,
| should cost almost the same but is typically the top of
| level 2 charging specs.
| cwillu wrote:
| Any outlet that is safely usable outdoors will have a
| gfci, and using two outlets on different phases would be
| indistinguishable from a ground fault.
| nickff wrote:
| Many (if not most) residential electrical in North
| America is split-phase, not multi-phase. This is why
| residential high-power sockets are usually 240V, and
| industrial 2-phase is most often 208V.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| Why are you spit-balling bizarre and dangerous fixes to
| an already solved problem?
|
| A certified electrician will know how to cable up a
| higher-capacity appliance such as an electric oven or
| level 2 home EV charger.
| tanseydavid wrote:
| >> Why are you spit-balling bizarre and dangerous fixes
| to an already solved problem?
|
| Darwin Awards don't just win themselves, you have to be
| creative about it, right?
| avidiax wrote:
| That product exists, and it's called Quick220.
|
| The Y extension lead would work, except that if either
| outlet has line and neutral swapped, you have a dead
| short, and if you pull one of the male ends while
| charging, you have a live male prong.
|
| Quick 220 mostly resolves this, but you still need a 3
| lamp tester, IIRC.
|
| https://hackaday.io/project/4818-a-quick-220-clone
|
| https://quick220.com/
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| > It follows that for the average American, a normal outlet
| is not fine.
|
| Yes, that's why it's recommended to install a home "Level
| 2" charger (1). that's that's several times faster than "a
| normal outlet". It's both fine and practical to do that.
|
| Not everything in a typical house runs on just "normal
| outlet" power. e.g. electric ovens also do not.
|
| 1)
|
| https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-
| advice/a39917614/best-...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-electric-
| veh...
| tzs wrote:
| Does it follow? I'd expect the average daily travel to be
| significantly higher than the median daily travel.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > near the limit of what's practical without using a fast
| charger
|
| "fast charger" usually means one of those fancy DC systems,
| not just a bigger outlet.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Confusingly, Level 2 charging can refer both to 220V AC or
| fast DC charging. Context is key, but home level 2 (AC) can
| get up to about 20kW, while DC Level 2 easily delivers up
| to 400kW.
|
| "Fast charger" in the context of home charging means 20-50A
| at 220V, which is enough to fully charge the battery in a
| few hours. Basically, you can roll in on fumes at midnight,
| plug in and go to sleep, and wake up and leave the next
| morning with a full tank.
| verisimi wrote:
| > it was near the limit of what's practical without using a
| fast charger
|
| > I had to think a few days out for when I'd know I'd be
| doing a bunch of driving to make sure I gave myself enough
| buffer
|
| Its hard to accept a future that involves this sort of
| compromise and introducing new stresses for an inferior
| solution.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| You have to think about gas too, you're just used to it.
|
| And the future has enough fast chargers that it's hard to
| be caught out no matter where you go.
|
| The future also involves more high power plugs, which would
| have removed the issue you quoted.
|
| If you would mind that issue more than they did, then you
| just need to get a plug installed when you buy an EV.
| verisimi wrote:
| Its a different order of magnitude. I don't need to think
| about fuel every day, and I don't have to consider my
| week if I have a busy day.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| All of that gets removed if you have a bigger outlet.
| There are some people that mind that very little and
| won't bother to get the upgrade, but judging EVs in
| general based on the 120-volt situation is like judging
| pasta in general based on cups of instant ramen.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| People who walk out every morning to an EV fully charged
| up on a home L2 charger (the "high power plugs" mentioned
| above) very seldom have to think about charge, and
| definitely not "every day".
|
| How would you feel if your car automatically had a full
| tank of gas every morning? Even when near empty the night
| before. It's described as the complete opposite of "worry
| every day".
| verisimi wrote:
| It sounds like you feel the same way I feel about a gas
| car - ie highly unconcerned about distance, fuel, etc.
|
| However, going off the post I initially replied to, it
| seems that this person did have additional anxiety on
| account of their EV - ie the issues EV's have with
| charging, short distances, etc.
| vel0city wrote:
| I have to think about my fuel a lot more on my ICE than
| my EV. I just plug it in when I get home and it's taken
| care of. Outside of a couple of road trips that were as
| simple as punching in addresses and following directions
| that's been my experience.
|
| On my ICE, I think about if gas is expensive or cheap
| now, maybe I should go ahead and stop at Sam's/Costco
| while I'm out, but I still have a bit more than a quarter
| tank, maybe I'll get gas next time. Or I think darn I'm
| low, I guess I'll have enough, better stop on my way
| home. And then when I'm there I have to negotiate
| payment, stand in the 100F heat for several minutes,
| worry if this pump has a card skimmer on it, and get ads
| blasted at me. Rinse and repeat every couple of weeks.
| kec wrote:
| "Thinking about gas" for 99% of people means either
| glancing at the fuel gauge when you get in the car and
| making a 15 minute detour + pit stop if you think it
| looks a bit low for your trip, or just ignoring it and
| making the 15 minute detour once the low fuel indicator
| comes on.
|
| Electric is on the whole better & cheaper, but insisting
| the downsides around charging and endurance do not exist
| isn't going to help convince anyone
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _You have to think about gas too, you 're just used to
| it._
|
| Have you travelled in the past 40 years? There are gas
| stations on every corner across the USA. Even the
| smallest hovels have them.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Even the smallest hovels have them.
|
| Not sure what you are looking for, but it isn't sensible
| to use "hovel" (="a small, squalid, unpleasant, or simply
| constructed dwelling") here. "Hamlet", maybe?
| rockinghigh wrote:
| Most homes have access to 240V outlets that charge much
| faster, at a rate of 20 to 30 miles of range per hour.
| delecti wrote:
| Yes, definitely agreed. My wife and I haven't ever used a
| public charger with just a 120V outlet in our garage, and I
| suspect that would apply to many other people as well. For a
| great many more, a 240V charger is easily installable in any
| garage or driveway and dramatically increases how much you can
| charge overnight.
|
| That's obviously not going to work for everyone, but between
| the two of them it drastically reduces the number of charging
| stations needed in suburban areas.
| piquadrat wrote:
| One drawback of charging on an 120v (or 230v) outlet is
| efficiency. While charging, the energy consumption of an
| electric car can easily reach 300-400 watts. When you're only
| charging with 1800-2400 watts, that's a sizeable amount of
| energy that never reaches the battery.
|
| With a dedicated level 2 charger, you can charge with 10+ kW,
| making the percentage that is lost in the electronics of the
| vehicle much smaller.
| bonzini wrote:
| That doesn't match my experience. At 9-10A (2100W) the
| efficiency is way above 90%, meaning the consumption of the
| rectifier inside the car is more in the 100-150W range.
| redserk wrote:
| I agree that it isn't the most efficient manner, this is not
| an insurmountable issue for the vast majority of people. The
| cost will still be well under half the price of gas for most
| people driving electric sedans and crossovers.
|
| Yes, those living in the Bay Area with a Hummer EV will find
| the economics problematic but this solution is fine for the
| vast majority of other situations throughout the US.
| mindslight wrote:
| > _While charging, the energy consumption of an electric car
| can easily reach 300-400 watts_
|
| This is the first I'm hearing of this. Is this for real? Six
| modern desktop PCs worth of power, doing what? And that draw
| only occurs while charging, so it goes away when the car is
| "off"? Is this for heating the battery when it's cold? I'm
| not trying to jump on you, I'm just seriously surprised.
| piquadrat wrote:
| My source is an article from the ADAC, a German automobile
| association.
|
| https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-
| fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/lade...
|
| They say 100-300W for the onboard electronics, and 15-25%
| total loss when using a wall socket (other losers
| contribute as well, e.g. cables that weren't originally
| meant to run at peak current for hours on time).
| mindslight wrote:
| If I'm reading that article/pictures right (using
| Doubleclick Translate), it's claiming that when charging
| at 2.3kW, 5-15% of the power is going to the 12V system.
| So assuming 90% efficiency for the main power converter
| and 80% efficiency for the 12V converter, that's at least
| 6-20 amps of draw on the 12V bus? That seems quite high.
|
| Premises wiring seems like a red herring. At least in the
| US, conductors are sized based on a maximum percentage
| voltage drop at rated current, which means the branch
| circuit losses should be similar when using either one at
| full capacity. (A lower current circuit for a longer time
| is actually going to be slightly more efficient because
| the feeders are fixed sizes)
| bretto13 wrote:
| It's also even more of a problem in freezing temps. I've
| charged with both a wall outlet and a 240v at home and at
| 15amps it will really struggle to heat the battery enough to
| charge. It gets painfully slow.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| > I would hope the vast majority of Americans who have access
| to a driveway will be able to find a block of time for this.
|
| Given housing costs, that assumption of access isn't a sound
| one. And Apartments from what I've seen have maybe 5 total
| charging stations for every few hundred cars?
|
| >Fortunately this isn't a problem in the vast majority places
| today and I hope continued investment in fast charging networks
| ensures this remains a limited problem.
|
| well, not today. If the adoption is aggressive this can and
| will quickly be an issue in urban areas.
| johnea wrote:
| In the US, ~70% of people live in single family houses.
|
| Most people already have an EV "gas station" at home...
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I'd want to see a breakdown of that by demographic. I don't
| think many boomers are itching to switch to FEV as of now.
| js2 wrote:
| Just to put some numbers on it. A standard outlet is rated for
| 1440 watts under continuous load (1800 * 80% per NEC) or 1.44
| kWh. A Tesla Model 3 travels around 4 miles per kWh. So each
| hour of charging provides between 5-6 miles of range.
| Installing a 240V/30A "dryer" outlet would allow charging about
| 4X faster.
|
| Personally, we own a Chevy Volt and get about 3.5 miles per kWh
| out of it. I installed a 240V/30A outlet in our garage, but the
| Volt's max recharging rate is 4 kWh. Still that gives us 14
| miles/hour.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| And in a gas car you get 300-400 miles of range or more in a
| 5-minute fuel stop. That's the inconvenience they needs to be
| largely overcome.
| SirSourdough wrote:
| As others mention it really depends on your use case.
|
| If you can charge at home (ideally at 240v), and you don't
| drive more than the range of your vehicle in a day
| regularly, it's gas that has an inconvenience to overcome.
| I don't have a gas pump at my house.
|
| If you are an Uber driver and you do 2-3x the range every
| day, it's a different story. But if you can charge for free
| - which isn't hugely uncommon currently - you can save a
| lot of money on gas with an EV, so there are tradeoffs.
| zdragnar wrote:
| The daily drive isn't what people are thinking about when
| charging time is brought up.
|
| They're thinking about visiting family, or short day trip
| vacations, or longer hauls through very rural areas.
|
| Or, they live in an apartment complex that doesn't let
| them run extension cords out to their cars or have
| charging stations for everyone yet (though admittedly
| this is only a matter of time).
| throwaway4220 wrote:
| Anecdotally I just went on a 200 mile trip. Had to fast
| charge once but I was able to fully charge at my
| destination with a 110 volt outlet and a long extension
| cable. Turns out I like to lounge for about 16 hours a
| day on vacation.
|
| Of course I rented a Tesla for this trip and at home I
| can't charge because I live in a condo.
|
| So it's tradeoffs all the way down in life
| Lio wrote:
| You're comparing the time to fuel a car at home vs a
| dedicated fuelling station.
|
| You can't (generally) refuel your ICE car at home. The
| times to recharge at a fast charge station is coming down
| and down.
| rascul wrote:
| > You can't (generally) refuel your ICE car at home.
|
| You potentially can, though. In many areas,
| laws/regulations/ordinances allow one to have a large
| tank and a pump. Bulk gasoline delivery can also cost
| less than what one would typically pay at the pump. I've
| rarely seen it done except at businesses with fleets of
| vehicles or large farms, though.
| toast0 wrote:
| I refuel my ICEs at home all the time. I have many ICE
| tools, so I've got a pair of wonderful metal gas cans. I
| refuel the gas cans while I'm out, and then I can refuel
| tools and vehicles at home.
|
| Capless tanks in cars are kind of a pain, but other than
| that it's easy. Storing filled gas cans isn't an option
| for everyone; usually the same people who will have
| trouble with a charger at home will have restrictions on
| gas cans. Regulatory devices to prevent spilling gas seem
| to ensure spilling gas too; it's better to use a 'for
| entertainment purposes only' flexible spout if you've got
| one.
| throwaway4220 wrote:
| Well unless you have an oil well and a full refinery in
| your backyard really it's apples and oranges
| bdcravens wrote:
| I keep a 110v charger in my car for emergencies (especially
| since my car can charge others in a pinch), but it wasn't that
| hard to install a 220 in my garage (of course Texas is a bit
| more lax when it comes to doing that kind of work without a
| license, though I was pretty meticulous about following code).
| I didn't buy a super expensive charger, and the most expensive
| part was the Romex (it was when copper was pricier), and
| overall it cost me about the price of a basic gas grill.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for
| your average driver assuming you can park the car for several
| hours."
|
| This could be a problem in the future though. As the newer
| chemistry for batteries increases energy density, it would
| demand more power or time assuming one still drains the battery
| a sufficient amount to reduce cycles in an effort to preserve
| battery life.
|
| Edit: why disagree?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Batteries don't care about cycle count, if "cycle" in this
| context is every time you switch between charging and
| discharging. They care about how many amps go in and out,
| along with disliking being too close to 0% or 100%.
|
| Limiting max charge is easier if you have extra range, and so
| is staying away from empty. Making the battery hold more
| energy only improves things. Go ahead and charge every night.
|
| If you see someone giving "cycle count" as a spec, they mean
| _full_ cycles. If you charge 10% five times, that 's half a
| full cycle.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I know specs go by full cycles. I was always taught not to
| shallow charge because each partial charge essentially
| carried some overhead to it. Sort of like two 10% is not
| equal to one 20% charge. I guess that's not true anymore
| since I couldn't find anything on it.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Keep in mind that the battery is doing an extra
| transition between charge and discharge every time
| regenerative breaking kicks in.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| The biggest issue with real life is that we have to prepare for
| 5-6 sigma events, and they actually happen quite often.
| Otherwise the whole insurance industry should die away.
|
| I think the biggest hassle is that we need to make sure that
| each place we spend vacation in has enough EV charging
| stations. We do go for distances that need intermediate
| filling/charging quite often (reads once per month perhaps) I
| never had to worry about that for my gas burning Tucson 2020.
| Even having to worry about it, having to do research about that
| is a hassle for ordinary people. We already have too much to
| worry about.
|
| And then there is the issue of charing is way too slow. It may
| also induce excessive shopping at the charging station -- the
| most expensive places for drinks and foods.
|
| And then there is the issue of long-term (read 2-5 days) power
| outage in Quebec early springs which occur more often than I
| want to believe (we just had one last year, and minor outages
| occur after EACH rain here and there). It does hit gas stations
| too, there are more gas stations than charging stations anyway.
|
| And what benefit does EV give me? I don't care about driving
| experience. I'm insensitive to gas price jumps. And the cynical
| me believe that once we have more EVs the businesses would
| simply double the charging costs.
|
| I'll probably switch to an EV eventually, but that's when
| charging stations are literally everywhere in Canada.
| tootie wrote:
| I think realigning expectations ever so slightly can cure a
| lot of that. The cost of renting a gas car once a year or
| calling a taxi when you're stranded are comparatively tiny
| compared to retaining full-time ICEs just in case. I'm a city
| person so my default is no car and rent/taxi when I need one.
| My automotive expenditures per month probably nets out around
| $50 or so and I can handle any exigency.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I think "cost" consists of two parts: financial and mental.
| The financial side is probably negligible, but the mental
| part could be larger.
|
| But everyone has one's own needs so I fully understand your
| scenario.
| violet13 wrote:
| > Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems
| that far too many people overestimate their driving habits.
|
| Or conversely, folks who are making this argument underestimate
| the flexibility people want out of a car.
|
| If all you factor in is the average daily work commute, then
| most car owners don't need a car to begin with - even in the
| US. There's usually some public transport, or work-provided
| transportation, or opportunities to carpool with a neighbor.
| Not glamorous, but enough to get you through your average day.
|
| The car culture has very little to do with averages. And for
| what it's worth, it's the same for most other goods, from
| computers to kitchen appliances. I mean, how many techies need
| a kitchen in their home to begin with?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _folks who are making this argument underestimate the
| flexibility people want out of a car_
|
| It's anxiety. I took a parent's EV to Sonoma and back (100 mi
| each way + detours + driving around Sonoma) and stopped once
| for a 5-minute fast charge on the way back. The battery got
| to a low of 5%, but that was expected.
|
| Unbeknownst to me, my father was checking the battery level
| remotely and freaking out that it would get that low. Let me
| remind you, this is in the Bay Area. There is no deficit of
| public chargers here.
|
| Another: I had a mid-forties friend visit me in Wyoming. I
| have a gas Subaru. Its fuel level getting to quarter full--
| good for at least 100 miles--freaked them out. To go to the
| grocery store. Two miles away.
| WildGreenLeave wrote:
| I think this is partly because there is not really an
| alternative once you run out. Getting a jerrycan of gas
| from a gasstation is possible, a reasonable expectation can
| be made that if that happens a good samaritan will help
| you. Or a friend can drop by with one.
|
| The same thing cannot be said about electric cars, unless
| you have a good friend with a fuel generator. Even then you
| still have to wait for it to charge. More likely you will
| be towed, at least in The Netherlands they will tow you to
| the next parking place. If you are lucky it will be one
| with a charger, if you are unlucky you are once again on
| your own.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _same thing cannot be said about electric cars_
|
| Gas cars need a jump all the time.
|
| If this is _really_ an anxiety of someone's, they can
| carry a capacitor in the back sufficient to be charged
| somewhere and take the vehicle to a charger. That should
| work in 90%+ of situations.
| jjav wrote:
| > Gas cars need a jump all the time.
|
| All the time? That's some strong exaggeration there. Last
| time I needed a jump start was in 2016 and before that..
| can't put an exact year to it but it was back in the 80s.
|
| > If this is really an anxiety of someone's, they can
| carry a capacitor in the back sufficient to be charged
| somewhere and take the vehicle to a charger.
|
| Please describe in some detail how you expect this to
| work? Can you link to this "capacitor" that people should
| buy that can do that?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Last time I needed a jump start was in 2016 and before
| that.. can 't put an exact year to it but it was back in
| the 80s_
|
| As in it's frequent. I'd estimate about as frequent as
| someone running out of charge in an EV nowadays.
|
| (If you're in a hot climate, _e.g._ Arizona, and park
| your car outdoors, it literally can be every year or
| two.)
|
| > _Can you link to this "capacitor" that people should
| buy that can do that?_
|
| Apparently they're still marketed to commercial users,
| pricing in the $5k+ range. EV to EV charging, emerging on
| newer vehicles, would be the analog.
| dmurray wrote:
| Do these exist?
|
| A quick Google turns up this kind of thing [0] which,
| based on the price point and form factor, is aimed at tow
| truck operators rather than individual drivers. Costs
| $10k+ and will take up most of the back of your car.
|
| [0] https://jtmpower.ie/collections/electric-vehicle-
| charging
| resolutebat wrote:
| Yes, they do, and it's available as a service in
| Australia:
|
| https://mobileevcharging.com.au/
| dmurray wrote:
| That's a commercial unit again, not something you throw
| in your trunk.
|
| That's probably the right solution to this - and
| something every tow truck will carry in 10 years - but
| it's not the "capacitor in the back" analogue to an empty
| jerrycan.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _Gas cars need a jump all the time._
|
| In my family's 20+ years of owning multiple vehicles I
| can count on one hand how many jumps we've needed, and
| they fall under the category of 1. old battery or 2. left
| some lights on.
|
| The latter wouldn't even kill the battery any more.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Aren't their car models who can charge other vehicles ?
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| We'll have to see. I know AAA has some mobile charging
| trucks that can boost an EV with a few extra miles
| (diesel generator AFAIK), but I don't know how widespread
| it's been deployed or response time, and it does mean
| that the service truck is on site for 30+ minutes vs the
| 1 minute to give you some gas.
|
| I think the shitty part at least in Canada is the sheer
| network fragmentation for fast charging. Understandable
| why it's fragmented but it's still frustrating
| nonetheless.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| It's not just that, it's also time... in 99.9% of cases,
| the gas station is there, and you'll get gas in ~5 minutes,
| full tank, enough to drive another 1000km. Even if it's
| busy, you wait a few more minutes and get it.
|
| If you come to a busy charging station... are you really
| going to wait for an hour? are you going to risk it with
| the next one? What if that one is even busier?
|
| I live in a country which is full of people transiting
| every summer from norther europe to croatian beaches, like
| literally 10km traffic jams to go through a tunnel, police
| stopping transiting vehicles from leaving the highway (so
| the locals can use the side roads, but the gas stations can
| manage it, because refilling takes just a few minutes.
|
| Now replace just 10% of those german cars with electric
| ones, calculate how many refills you need to drive between
| eg. frankfurt to split, multiply by thousands going through
| every weekend, and there's no way to get efficiently charge
| all those cars, and noone is designig charging stations for
| peak traffic. 30km left? 8 charging stations, 15 cars
| waiting, will you really risk it? Or will you wait two
| hours at least to get a chance to charge your car?
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| > Or conversely, folks who are making this argument
| underestimate the flexibility people want out of a car. ...
| The car culture has very little to do with averages.
|
| On the other hand, capacity planning e.g. for charging or gas
| stations, has everything to do with averages and the
| aggregate effects of people each exercising that flexibility
| occasionally.
|
| Needed capacity for EV charging will be lower, and more
| centred around longer trips, since a large percent of
| charging is at home, from wall sockets or L2 chargers.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| If all you factor in is the average daily work commute, then
| most car owners don't need a car to begin with - even in the
| US. There's usually some public transport, or work-provided
| transportation, or opportunities to carpool with a neighbor.
|
| I don't know if this is true. For example, I live in San
| Francisco, one of the densest cities in the US. Public
| transport for my typical journeys (kid's school, Costco,
| doctor, dentist, visiting in-laws) takes twice to four times
| as long as the same journey by car. I wish it were not so.
| emj wrote:
| That argument can be made everywhere even with perfect
| public transport. It is usually about choices you have
| made. Of course in the US it is far too easy to become car
| dependent. If you wish it, it is most certainly possible
| but you have probably made some personal choices that makes
| it harder.
|
| Car dependency is a choice. Even in Europe the norm of cars
| is strong.
| yurishimo wrote:
| 2x is pretty common in some parts of the Netherlands. If
| you're deep within the city center, sure, public transit is
| faster because streets are designed intentionally to be
| hostile to drivers.
|
| In the suburbs or even smaller cities, driving is still
| faster. Hell, the trains here hardly have time to
| accelerate past 120kmph so driving can actually be faster
| than the train too unless you are going directly from city
| center to city center (most people need a 10 min bike ride
| on one or both sides).
|
| Even If North America starts taking transit seriously, the
| routes needed to connect the suburbs to most metro
| downtowns will be enormous. There will either needs to be
| hundreds of bus routes feeding into light rail, or perhaps
| better bike infrastructure can get people close enough to
| one of dozens of light rail stops.
|
| In any case, sprawl is currently setup to make urbanizing a
| slow and painful future for transit enthusiasts.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| I won't buy a car that I can't adequately evacuate in. This
| means 700 miles with a 10 minute stop for gas / restroom.
|
| I don't care about personal emergencies. I care about local
| emergencies. It only sounds unreasonable until you've had to do
| it multiple times.
| speedgoose wrote:
| If you need to evacuate 1000km as fast as possible without
| stopping, bring water and food and be prepared to die in a
| massive traffic jam. Or in the post apocalyptique world that
| will follow.
|
| Or maybe you can stop a few more minutes when it happens?
| overstay8930 wrote:
| People overestimate because underestimating means you just
| wasted 50k+ on something that doesn't meet your needs. That's
| why normal people don't buy EVs, cars are usually the most
| expensive thing someone owns outside of real estate and you're
| going to have a hard time convincing someone to buy something
| that is a worse value.
|
| It's why so many people own pickup trucks and large SUVs.
| People don't buy vehicles for what they need 95% of the time,
| they buy vehicles that will do whatever they want it to do 100%
| of the time.
| adolph wrote:
| Which is an interesting parallel to Taleb's "The Most
| Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority."
| Essentially one's own fringe preferences dictate the design
| requirements of something that doesn't utilize that
| preference a significant amount of time.
|
| https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-
| dict...
| robcohen wrote:
| Which makes sense, imagine only have shoes that worked on
| 95% of the floors you walk on. Imagine a fridge that only
| cools 95% of your food, and it's a fun surprise when it
| doesn't.
|
| This is entirely rational, and reminds me of people who
| can't understand why everyone doesn't bike everywhere. It
| just reeks of solipsism.
|
| I own a Tesla, and I have to tell you it's a massive pain
| to own an EV and live in an apartment complex. It's
| honestly frustrating to the point that I regret getting it.
| The performance is great, but the interior, significant
| price drop in the year I've owned it, and the constant
| anxiety about the battery has not made for a pleasant
| experience.
|
| If I could go back I'd get a Mercedes S class that's 5-7
| years old.
| yurishimo wrote:
| Gotta admit, after moving to the Netherlands, it's kinda
| legit insane how much stuff people will carry on a bike.
| A new 55" tv is not uncommon! Today I saw a lady with two
| toddlers and a grocery bag swinging from the handlebars.
|
| I take your point though. There are still plenty of
| delivery trucks and personal autos, even in this biking
| paradise.
| jpetso wrote:
| Imagine you have a portable laptop that works for 95% of
| all your use cases except those days when you need a
| cluster of GPUs training a ML model or doing some large-
| scale scientific calculation.
|
| Imagine having a fridge that isn't cold enough for
| storing ice cream and frozen veggies.
|
| And yes, none of my shoes are even remotely close to
| covering 95% of floors. Some are good for hiking, some
| are good for running, some are warm in the winter.
|
| The issue is not the lack of 100% coverage. The issue is
| that there is no sufficiently appealing option for a
| large number of people to get access to the 5% of cases
| when you do need it. Apparently rentals and other sharing
| options aren't quite up to snuff, so everybody
| overprovisions like crazy.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| It's not exactly irrational though. Swinging back to car
| rental companies, they will overbook their vehicle fleets
| in order to maximize the amount of time that they're out
| generating revenue. Even if you prepay a reservation,
| it's no guarantee you will get a car.
|
| It's awful stressful awful quick when you have to deal
| with availability uncertainty and other things depend on
| it.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I've read all of Taleb's major works, twice. "The Most
| Intolerant Wins" is not in any way an explanation of the
| market failure of EVs.
|
| His canonical example was "kosher food is _acceptable_ to
| nearly everyone, and required by a small minority. " Thus
| kosher takes over.
|
| "EVs vs. ICEs" is nothing like that. EVs have been rejected
| by vast numbers of consumers because they find them
| impractical. That's all.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> His canonical example was "kosher food is acceptable
| to nearly everyone, and required by a small minority."
| Thus kosher takes over._
|
| Which is a great example of how Taleb's "examples" are
| BS. Really, when Taleb goes into a grocery store, is
| _all_ of the food kosher? Or even a majority? Kosher has
| not "taken over". It's a niche product.
| viraptor wrote:
| > That's why normal people don't buy EVs
|
| Are you sure that the reason isn't the cost of them? I mean,
| sure charging is one aspect, but is there actually a study
| that compares the two? There's plenty of "normal" people
| buying cheap BYDs.
|
| > It's why so many people own pickup trucks and large SUVs.
|
| That's a very region/culture-specific thing.
| rblatz wrote:
| This is a thread about US charging infrastructure, BYD does
| not sell vehicles here and large trucks and SUVs are
| extremely popular here.
| viraptor wrote:
| The thread is about incentives and future possibilities
| in the US. The current state of the charging network is
| not set in stone. Neither is regulation, EV availability,
| etc.
|
| Even then, the question "what are the actual preferences
| when adjusted for price" is valid even in today's US.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I'm definitely not an expert but I think BYDs are popular
| in China and EU because of governmental policies (in China)
| and geographical reasons (both China and EU are more urban
| than North America, owning a detached house in China that
| is closer to good schools, hospitals and infras are
| unthinkable for most Chinese).
|
| I live in Canada and I really can't see myself driving an
| EV right now. It doesn't guarantee my not-so-rare but
| crucial requests:
|
| - Going to some random places for vacationing without
| worrying about whether there are enough charging stations;
|
| - Going through early spring without adding anxiety about a
| power outage that sweeps for 2-7 days;
|
| The infra is just not ready. And TBH, I don't think it's
| going to be ready forever. Infra construction is so
| corrupted and so expensive in NA that I absolutely have
| zero faith in it.
|
| Actually, the push to more EVs in China is already a bit
| problematic due to lack of Infras. Just imagine you are in
| the middle of Spring festival traffic jam...it's already
| bad for gasoline cars but it's a nightmare for EVs.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _I live in Canada and I really can 't see myself
| driving an EV right now._
|
| We live in a semi-rural part of Canada, and have a bit of
| a (pleasant, country) commute. I want the most efficient
| vehicle. I ran the numbers and an EV just did not make
| sense. If you're driving mostly highway, the overall
| cost/km isn't _that_ much better than the best ICEs, and
| the ICE is much cheaper.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Oh I wish I could live in such a place too.
|
| Financial-wise, I actually haven't compared the cost/km
| because of two things:
|
| - I'm not sure how expensive a switch of battery going to
| be (do we have data on that?)
|
| - Yeah they are outright more expensive than ICEs, and
| with the current financing climate, not very attractive
| redserk wrote:
| You will never, ever be able to spend any amount of money on
| any vehicle that will perpetually guarantee a 100.000%
| success rate for all situations you will end up in.
|
| Suddenly inherit a boat? Perhaps your towing capacity is
| inadequate.
|
| A ravine appears due to an unexpected earthquake? Four tires
| probably won't traverse it.
|
| You're out at a dinner party. Your friend's car breaks down
| and you now need to carry 9 people? Anything but a small bus
| will be inadequate.
|
| How to solve this? Look at your last X years of driving and
| solve for that. For everything else, vehicle rental exists
| for the exactly-once occasion.
|
| I'm impressed by how many 9's people try to solve for. It's
| completely unreasonable. I solved for my 99.9% of days
| driving and am extremely happy.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| My strategy is never buy new cars, period. Spending $50k+ on
| a car seems absolutely insane to me. In the past 26 years
| I've been driving, I've spent a total of $19k on cars and
| $11k is on my most recent as I got a great deal from a family
| member. So precious to last year, I was averaging a $26/mo
| "car payment". No major repairs outside of alternators,
| starters, batteries, and tires. I probably won't own an EV
| for another 20 years.
| ClassyJacket wrote:
| I certainly find that standard wall outlet charging at 240v is
| enough for me in Australia, altho the US power system is lower
| voltage/power. I don't even plug in every night, usually every
| second night.
|
| The problem is that I need to move and I can't afford a house,
| only an apartment. I may never afford a house. So I'll be
| relying 100% on public charging. Not because home charging is
| too slow, but because I will have no access to it.
| jjav wrote:
| > A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for
| your average driver assuming you can park the car for several
| hours.
|
| "several" doesn't convey the reality here. It's a lot of hours.
| My partner has an EV and coming back from work it gets plugged
| in and by noon next day it is still not charged up to what it
| was before going to work the day before.
|
| It kind of works because here they only need to go to work
| twice a week and not on consecutive days, but on rare occasions
| when consecutive days are needed it requires a trip to a
| commercial charger.
|
| > You'd only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry
| on.
|
| No. They drive to whole foods and spend an hour or so waiting
| around to charge it up enough to get to work and back (not
| 100%).
|
| It takes a lot of committment and careful planning to drive an
| EV. For an occasional commute like here, it's mostly ok.
| _fizz_buzz_ wrote:
| > It's a lot of hours. My partner has an EV and coming back
| from work it gets plugged in and by noon next day it is still
| not charged up to what it was before going to work the day
| before.
|
| What kind of outlet are we talking about here. Either this
| outlet is somehow very limited or the commute is very long.
| jjav wrote:
| > What kind of outlet are we talking about here.
|
| A standard wall outlet, as in the post I was responding to.
| to11mtm wrote:
| > Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems
| that far too many people overestimate their driving habits.
|
| I mean, yes and no.
|
| But there's side effects.
|
| Haven't looked at TFA but unless they considered realities of
| condos/etc (my condo, parking is more like an apartment) that
| must be considered too.
|
| If I don't have a way to charge my car at night I will hold on
| to an ICE with every fiber of my being, and at this rate
| _unfortunately_ it 's the just about-ish 12 year old 20-25MPG
| WRX instead of the 2.6 year old 37-45MPG Maverick Hybrid, based
| on downtime/repair cost if I had to pick one today.
|
| As far as 'driving habits' mine vary greatly.
|
| However whenever possible I take the Maverick for trips that
| can be hotshot (my current record is ~830 miles in 14ish hours
| with 10-15 minute stops along the way as needed.) Honestly with
| a good side crew I can do it all myself while clearing my mind
| (i.e. spare cycles while focusing on driving, I think about
| baggage.)
|
| I honestly don't know if I could do the same sort of trip in a
| current EV even if there were the best charging stations at
| every stop we went to.
|
| Maybe we could?
|
| OTOH that's the 'distance' case. Compare to driving up north in
| MI where stations are few and far between, or worse, the UP
| where a car accident may cause a many-hour backup.
|
| I should note, for my hybrid, my 'cutoff' for Hotshotting, once
| I am <100 miles till refuel, I get topped fully back off.
|
| I know how to mitigate, but how do we deal with the people that
| can't even handle stop signs and signals?
| coretx wrote:
| Also: If you only slow charge, it will _drastically_ increase
| your battery life span / general health.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> If the worst happens and you need to travel for an
| emergency, you just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast
| charger. You'd only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to
| carry on._
|
| And if it's an emergency, why would I want to waste 10 minutes
| charging instead of just going where I need to go right away--
| since it's an _emergency_?
|
| Arguments like this boil down to "I think you should accept
| just giving up something you want, for nothing in return."
| Which ordinary people quite rationally do not see as a deal
| they should accept.
| metadat wrote:
| Cheers an EV on a 120v outlet is _extremely slow_ , over the
| course of 6-8 hours you may get only 8% or so, at best. It's
| unclear what experience you've had but the laws of physics are
| a pain in North America.
| grecy wrote:
| Headline 100 years ago: "How many gas stations does the US need
| to replace Hay and farriers?"
|
| Obviously for the first few years it was difficult to drive an
| automobile very far.. and every year it got better and better.
| xenospn wrote:
| The difference is, you can create a gas station with a barrel
| and a pump. No need for infrastructure.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Also every single house in the civilised world has an
| electric outlet, the infrastructure is already built.
| erik_seaberg wrote:
| Sure, but the curbs three blocks away do not, and around
| here there's been no progress towards building it.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Curbside parking is shit for everyone. I would be really
| hesitant to leave any car I'm not willing to lose on the
| curb.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| You can (and people do) create a charging station with just a
| battery. Using the same metric as the gas station, which will
| indeed need more than just a barrel to make it work.
| pornel wrote:
| You can create a charging station with solar panels and a
| battery.
|
| Gas stations don't fill up themselves out of thin air -- a
| massive infrastructure has been built (and wars fought for)
| for extraction, refining, and supplying the fuel.
| xenospn wrote:
| I'm pretty sure you would need a huge, extremely expensive
| battery and it could only charge one or two cars a day, and
| take multiple days to recharge.
| pornel wrote:
| You're saying as if it was hypothetical. This is already
| being done.
|
| UK's gridserve has solar farms producing 62GWh/year,
| that's over 2000 full recharges per day.
|
| Their "Electric Forecourt" stations have 6GWh of
| batteries.
|
| https://www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-
| charging/electric...
|
| Battery storage is common in charging stations, because
| it allows peak charging speeds higher than the grid
| connection, plus use of renewable and off-peak
| electricity.
| jmpman wrote:
| My concern is the number of charger stations required between LA
| and Phoenix in the remote sections of I-10. Replacing all the
| cars with EVs that need to charge at a minimum of twice and you
| need two parking garages the size of the mall of America's
| parking lot - each spot with its own supercharger. The power
| consumption is equal to a nuclear power plant for each garage.
| And this is only required for the peak Thanksgiving traffic. The
| rest of the time, 90% of the chargers would be idle. Oh, and this
| would in Quartzsite, a town of 2500. There aren't power lines
| capable of this power. All the infrastructure would need to be
| built.
| LargeWu wrote:
| If this is so heavily traveled, then maybe rail is a better
| option. We need to dispense with the idea that auto traffic is
| the only option, or that we need to optimize for a particular
| mode.
| derwiki wrote:
| Wouldn't rail also be idle 90% of the time?
| bastawhiz wrote:
| Rail can haul cargo as well. The cost of idle rail is very
| very low compared to the cost of maintaining charging
| infrastructure.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The intercity rail part is the easy part. Getting people
| to actually use it requires a pretty decent city transit
| network on each end.
|
| On top of that, cargo and passenger trains don't really
| coexist that nicely. Nobody really wants to spend bullet
| train money on cargo, but that's what you need if you
| want to have bullet train speed for passengers on the
| same track.
|
| Nice thing about charging infrastructure is that another
| name for it is "the grid." It already exists everywhere.
| And in rural areas that don't have enough grid capacity
| for high peak loads, use batteries (which are getting
| _much_ cheaper) as a buffer.
| gpapilion wrote:
| > The intercity rail part is the easy part. Getting
| people to actually use it requires a pretty decent city
| transit network on each end.
|
| I don't think this is true. People take airplanes and
| rent a cars all the time. The same could be true for
| train travel. All of the ways someone would leave a train
| station generally exist.
|
| People don't take trains for two reasons: 1. They take
| too long. 2. They are too expensive.
|
| For example sf to la takes at least ~9-13h and costs
| between 50-80 dollars. Versus a southwest flight for ~140
| that takes an hour. For most people that extra 60 dollars
| for 7-11 hours is worth it.
| epolanski wrote:
| Amen, we ain't gonna get much greener either by making a
| hundred million EVs per year..
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Agreed, but you could start trying to build out that rail
| system right now and it'll still be decades before it
| meaningfully changes the need for car traffic (even then,
| look at Europe, cars are still quite popular and necessary in
| many places despite a significantly better passenger rail
| system). EVs are already a huge improvement on the status
| quo. And there's no reason we can't do _both_.
| LargeWu wrote:
| I think there's appetite for it to happen. There's a new
| rail line going in between the LA area and Las Vegas.
| Amtrak is now running a new route between Minneapolis and
| Chicago. I'm sure there are more like this.
|
| Certainly there are challenges with rail in some of the
| more sparsely populated areas, where it doesn't necessarily
| make sense. I think it will start by building out regional
| networks. It certainly won't happen by optimizing for NYC
| to LA.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I'm much more optimistic on solving the energy problem than
| the public transportation problem at this point. You gotta
| remember that Arizona and many western states were ratified
| not too long before automobiles took over. There has quite
| literally never been a "walkable city" in consideration for
| these states.
| troyvit wrote:
| They could compromise and use car shuttles[1]. Then people
| could still get the joy of 5 lanes of gridlock on the 101.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_shuttle_train
| ViewTrick1002 wrote:
| In Sweden they install temporary chargers containing both a
| battery and charger along the route when it is spring break
| season and everyone heads north to ski.
|
| This allows the grid infrastructure to be better utilized and
| provide more charging spots for the users.
|
| The goalposts for "No uh, EVs will never work!!!" just continue
| to get moved.
| pornel wrote:
| Batteries are common even in permanent charger installations,
| because they enable use of cheaper off-peak electricity, and
| peak charging rates higher than the grid connection.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > at a minimum of twice
|
| The most popular EVs today would stop once on that trip.
| There's probably a couple that can do it without stopping.
| akira2501 wrote:
| As the EVs gain battery capacity the chargers need to gain
| amperage. If those don't happen in concert then that one stop
| is going to take quite a bit of time.
|
| This is what the article misses. You can't count 1:1
| replacements. Fuel pumps dispense gasoline at 10 gallons per
| minute. That's an _insane_ power transfer rate and one that
| EV chargers just aren't anywhere near, and until they are,
| you can't imagine that "swapping infrastructure" is going to
| work in practice.
| pornel wrote:
| Chargers don't have to have higher amps for larger
| batteries. It's nice to have, but not necessary, and
| nothing gets worse with a bigger capacity.
|
| Rate of charging can stay the same, and it will add about
| the same range in the same amount of time.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > and it will add about the same range in the same amount
| of time.
|
| So the spots get used more, or the drivers charge at more
| stations along the way, meaning "some cars only need to
| charge once" is not a consequence free conclusion.
| arghnoname wrote:
| You can do the math on this, I don't think anyone does. I
| did the math with some basic assumptions using some simple
| queueing theory, which unfortunately I don't remember very
| well right now, but your intuition is correct.
|
| It isn't charging time one needs to worry about, it's
| charging time and queuing time. In a city with high rates
| of home ownership, home charging might solve the latter
| (assuming infrastructure can handle it), but on busy
| transit corridors the queueing time will be the predominant
| factor.
| shkkmo wrote:
| > Oh, and this would in Quartzsite, a town of 2500.
|
| While Quarzite has an year-round population of 2500, the actual
| winter population is much, much higher in addition to
| significant tourist traffic..
|
| Blythe is right nearby and has year-round population an order
| of magnitude higher. Both cities are not far from the Parker
| Dam which distributes it's 120 MW via power lines.
|
| > There aren't power lines capable of this power
|
| Um, what? Long distance transportation of power at these scales
| happens routinely in the US.
| grecy wrote:
| > _My concern is the number of charger stations required
| between LA and Phoenix in the remote sections of I-10._
|
| I'm assuming there are already gas stations on this "remote"
| stretch of road (all of 370 miles).
|
| What power service do those gas stations already have?
|
| Bulldoze the gas station and put EV chargers in their place.
| Problem solved.
| dude187 wrote:
| Except that doesn't solve the problem. Those gas stations
| have an exponentially higher energy transfer rate than the
| chargers would. The delays will stack up in only that
| footprint. Not to mention those gas stations need a tiny
| fraction of the power. So there's no guarantee the electrical
| infrastructure is in place
| mdorazio wrote:
| It's worth noting that energy transfer rate is not the
| average limiting factor of pump turnover time at gas
| stations. A significant portion of people are also doing
| some combination of going to the bathroom, buying snacks,
| washing their windshield, etc. And I'd be willing to bet
| most gas stations have idle pumps the majority of the time.
| You'd have to do a real study of a station to determine if
| replacing pumps with fast chargers would serve enough cars
| or not.
| dude187 wrote:
| I'd say way less than half the people I see at gas
| stations actually go in and buy stuff, the fueling time
| is the limiting factor the vast majority of the time.
|
| But that's besides the point anyways. Electric cars take
| forever to charge. So the turnover rate is a fraction of
| a normal gas station, and thus a lot more stations would
| have to be built out to accommodate the demand. That's
| the point, whether or not someone adds an extra minute
| buying a drink to their quick gas fill up has nothing to
| do with it
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| That route is possibly one of the sunniest in the entire
| US. And most of the land around it is barely used.
|
| I suspect this is not a hard problem.
| radley wrote:
| It would be far easier to just add EV charging stations at
| unpopulated exits.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| That's a 370 mile drive. Most EVs can already make that trip
| today, with a stop in San Bernardino if necessary. Some like
| the Lucid can do substantially more. In 5 years I suspect no EV
| beyond a city commuter sold can't make that trip without a
| single charge. Those who make the trip without a full charge
| knowing it's a limited resource trip would suffer the same fate
| as people who ignore "last fuel for 100 miles" signs on the
| route today. Regardless I suspect this problem isn't one, and
| it's not a problem for almost any other location in the entire
| country so I don't think we should set national policy based on
| the relatively uncommon trip of non stop between LA and
| phoenix, which has an alternative route slightly longer through
| San Diego and Yuma with more infra.
|
| I would note that a 6 hour drive requires for most people at
| least one stop to use the restroom and most people require food
| and beverage at some point as well as a stretch. This is the
| time span for EV charging. If that infrastructure can exist
| today it can have EV charging at those locations. In fact the
| locations who add EV charging will attract customers during the
| transition period between the age of fire and the age of
| Maxwell.
| jcranmer wrote:
| > That's a 370 mile drive. Most EVs can already make that
| trip today
|
| Per https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car,
| there seems to be essentially two cars that theoretically
| have >370 mi range (and looking at the data, the range is
| distinctly less if you're on a highway and not regeneratively
| braking a fair amount).
|
| That's a pretty big difference between gasoline and electric
| cars. With gasoline cars, 400 mile range is a comfortable low
| bound on how far you can go after filling up, no matter the
| driving conditions; with electric cars, 400 mile range is
| something you might hit in optimal driving conditions.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| San Bernardino would be your stop as I mentioned. I
| mentioned lucid as the car that can today make the trip
| without a charge. I further mentioned that even on the trip
| the fact people need to take rest breaks after hours of
| driving incentivizes businesses to provide fast charge
| points to attract paying customers.
|
| My statement was that within 5 years almost all cars would
| be able to do the trip end to end. At that point no
| intermediate charging would be necessary, but having charge
| points at restaurants and other places for breaks would be
| sensible even so and a net positive for those businesses.
| This would break the value of a gas station since it's a
| pretty low end experience as a customer, while say a
| Starbucks with EV charge points would be a higher margin
| business end to end and provide a generally superior
| customer experience. I think these economics are
| unassailable.
|
| I would note regenerative braking in an EV doesn't give you
| an advantage in any context. With a hybrid the gasoline
| expenditures of power can be recaptured as electrical
| charge. Highway driving for an EV is optimal because
| regenerative braking is not perfectly efficient and the act
| of slowing and accelerating at all will reduce your range.
| Your best profile in an EV is accelerating slowly and
| keeping a constant speed.
| nosefrog wrote:
| Most EVs can make the trip today? The most popular EV, the
| Model Y, has a stated range of 320 miles.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| With a stop in San Bernardino as I said. In 5 years most
| cars will be able to do it without, as I said. The lucid
| can make the trip today without stopping. But most humans
| can't drive 5-6 hours without stopping once.
| giantrobot wrote:
| > Most EVs can already make that trip today, with a stop in
| San Bernardino if necessary.
|
| With the AC running which is a practical requirement on that
| drive for most of the year? Highly doubt any current EV is
| going to do fewer than two stops on that drive. I doubt even
| more if that drive were from the LA metro to Phoenix as the
| first quarter of the route has a lot of day time traffic.
|
| I'm not saying the drive is impossible for an EV or anything,
| I just don't see an EV not having to stop several times on
| that drive. Maximum range numbers for every EV I've ever
| looked at seem to be pulled from the world of frictionless
| pulleys and spherical cows.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| How about between people where they live and anywhere else in
| the west? People take the 4 hour road trip for granted if we
| are to all transition to EVs with dubious >100mi range when its
| cold or hot. The settlements in the eastern sierra alone are
| scarcely close enough to feel comfortable even with a gas car
| in my experience. Let alone the more remote regions of the
| west.
| simonjgreen wrote:
| > the US currently has 188,600 public and private charging ports
|
| That seems... very low. Admittedly I'm from UK, but I don't know
| a single EV owner that doesn't have a home charger.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Yea, not sure about that number for private charging ports.
| They certainly don't know about the Level-2 charger in my
| garage. I wouldn't even include private chargers since the
| numbers would necessarily be unreliable.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Private chargers may refer to _e.g._ those on Apple's campus
| available only to their employees.
| xutopia wrote:
| I'm hoping for a less car centric future. Cars seem so limiting
| to me.
| johnea wrote:
| In the US, ~70% of people live in single family houses.
|
| Most people already have an EV "gas station" at home...
| radley wrote:
| Upgrade all parking spaces to wireless charging.
|
| (I don't know if it exists yet, but it will. Same with charging
| strips on roads. Death Stranding forever.)
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Wireless charging is shit and snake oil.
|
| What you need is a law that requires every apartment parking
| spot to have a charger - or at the very least a law that
| explicitly allows people to install chargers in their parking
| spots themselves[0]
|
| Also a certain percentage of public/store/corporate parking
| should be mandated to have chargers. One stop at Target is
| enough to charge more than it took to drive there and back even
| with a Level 2 charger.
|
| [0] by hiring a licensed electrician of course, not by
| themselves
| Animats wrote:
| Chargers are not going to be a problem as long as they are
| profitable.
|
| Looking a few years ahead, there's enough going on with solid
| state batteries that somebody, probably Toyota or one of the
| Chinese manufacturers, will ship that in quantity. Charging times
| should drop to 10 minutes. Chargers will have to have more power,
| but might not be more than the current number of gas pumps.
|
| We won't need more real estate for charging stations. This
| matters.
| mike_d wrote:
| > as long as they are profitable
|
| Which will be a big part of the problem. Gas stations aren't
| profitable. The convenience store with $6 bags of chips next to
| it is.
|
| We also learned in the early 2000s with the "datacenter in a
| shipping container that can go anywhere" fad that highly dense
| power isn't available in most places. As EV charging chains try
| to scale externalize costs onto the grid we will just end up
| subsidizing corporate profits.
| Animats wrote:
| McKinsey claims charging stations can be.[1]
|
| That was written before 10 minute charging looked possible.
| If charge times get down to 10 minutes, a gas station model
| works. Hour-long charging requires something for the humans
| to do.
|
| [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-
| assembly/...
| mike_d wrote:
| Sorry I should say gas stations are profitable standing
| alone. Once two gas stations exist it is a race to the
| fixed price floor (all stations buy from the same
| distributors in the same way all charging stations will buy
| from the same grid). There is no brand loyalty or product
| differentiation.
|
| McKinsey also thought it was a good idea to produce a
| report for the Saudi government that brought their
| attention to Jamal Khashoggi, ultimately leading to his
| murder.
| tonetegeatinst wrote:
| Unrelated to the article....but I can't ree myself getting an EV
| currently.
|
| 1. They just don't sound like the muscle cars. 2. For me
| personally, battery density isn't good enough, and I don't like
| how you can't just buy replacement batteries for some cars.... 3.
| With the lack of energy density comes the range issues in extream
| weather. 4. Software. Iv seen the software on some of these
| cars....I'd rather bike somewhere than drive in those. 5. Some
| vehicles with the one pedal driving have an issue where can can
| be slowing down, yet not hitting the brake pedal, yet no break
| lights are engaged.
|
| 6. Safety, gas isn't safe but I fear those EV battery's more than
| explosives or florine. EV battery's are big, bulky, and despite
| how big they are are not as energy dense as gasoline....yet they
| are a magnitude worse to put out. Also electricity isn't cheap
| where I live...and while charging to 100% is cheaper than
| gas....combined with the density and safety factors it's just not
| viable for me to be a consumer yet
| spullara wrote:
| This is the most uninformed comment I have ever seen at the top
| of HN. So much so I think it is likely trolling. Somehow you
| all fell for it.
| gambiting wrote:
| Literally every single point is wrong(other than 1 which is
| obviously true and 4 which is subjective). It absolutely has
| to be a troll, or someone who is genuienly tragically
| uninformed.
| throwbadubadu wrote:
| That's human... there will always be the kind of people that
| have their lists ready why the future will right now and also
| never in the future work for them, fortunately there is a
| long time perspective in evolution also in regard to
| ideas&thinking.
| hnbad wrote:
| Well, first of all, you should definitely consider biking some
| places rather than taking a car, EV or not. Even e-bikes are
| more energy efficient than most other modes of transport.
|
| There's also nothing that could really convince you if you want
| your cars to be noisy because there's no need for EVs to be
| noisy. I guess the only way to check that one off the list
| would be environmental regulations controlling noise pollution
| which would ding most ICE vehicles (and having lived and worked
| near busy roads I'm surprised those aren't already much
| stricter).
|
| But I'd still like to address some of your worries:
|
| > battery density isn't good enough
|
| I guess you mean "range isn't good enough" as battery density
| isn't really a meaningful stat by itself. I agree, there are
| few models available that have a good range comparable to an
| ICE. However with "super charging" you often don't spend more
| than 10 or 20 minutes at a charging station and these stops can
| often work nicely as toilet breaks or food breaks when making
| longer trips. But the real answer is that for longer trips you
| just need to plan your trips differently. With home charging
| you also ideally don't need to use public charging for most
| day-to-day trips. EVs certainly excel more at shorter ranges
| and frequent trips than occasional long range travel.
|
| > replacement batteries
|
| This really depends on the make and model. Some brands offer
| batteries for lease which means your battery will be swapped
| out before it reaches its end of life. If you buy the battery
| you might save money in the long run but will have to take care
| of replacing it yourself. Some Chinese manufacturers are
| fielding technology that allows swapping out batteries instead
| of charging them so that may also become a thing in the US and
| EU in the future.
|
| > range issues in extreme weather
|
| This one is true to some extent but varies by model. There was
| a lot of FUD about this earlier this year because it makes for
| good (i.e. high engagement) news stories but the short of it is
| that EVs behave differently than ICE cars and you need to take
| this into account. Cars generally don't handle extreme cold
| well and running your heating/aircon on max will drain your
| battery/fuel in either case.
|
| > I've seen the software on some of these cars
|
| Not much I can say to that as you're not giving me much to
| respond to. Yeah, some early models (e.g. Fisker Ocean) are
| notorious for software issues but these are usually mostly
| annoyances, nothing safety relevant.
|
| > Some vehicles with the one pedal driving have an issue where
| can can be slowing down, yet not hitting the brake pedal, yet
| no break lights are engaged.
|
| This is a common misunderstanding of how EV braking works: most
| EVs have a form of regenerative braking that recovers the
| energy from deceleration by releasing the gas pedal. If the
| brake lights came on every time you took the foot off the
| pedal, that would confuse everyone involved, so usually the
| brake lights will engage only on a delay or when actively
| braking using the brake pedal. Think of it like switching gears
| in a stick shift to "engine brake" - that wouldn't trigger the
| brake lights to come on either.
|
| Usually regenerative braking can't do a full stop so it will
| cut out at a certain minimum speed and require manual braking
| to stop the car. This has in some cases led to confusion
| because the stop in deceleration will be misinterpreted as the
| car accelerating again, especially when regenerative braking
| happens while manually braking using the brake pedal. It's 100%
| a matter of what you're used to.
|
| > gas isn't safe but I fear those EV batteries
|
| That's absolutely correct. EV batteries, once burning, will
| keep burning and will need to be submerged and kept submerged
| to ensure they don't catch fire again. I guess the positive is
| that they can't leak. A fuel leak might result in combustible
| fumes spilling into the interior whereas a battery will only
| catch fire exactly where it is. But realistically I'd rather
| hope we can move away from lithium in the future.
|
| > electricity isn't cheap
|
| I think that's the crux of it. EVs work best in urban or
| suburban environments with private charging infrastructure and
| cheap energy sources like rooftop solar. Gas is also
| notoriously cheap in the US compared to most EU countries where
| EVs can be significantly cheaper. But the killer app really is
| at home "slow" (i.e. over night) charging.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| > electricity isn't cheap where I live
|
| Electricity is literally free where I live at the moment
| (0.17c/kWh). And in a few hours I'll actually get paid to use
| it as the price will dip down to -0.20c/kWh at night
|
| Meanwhile gasoline costs around 1.80EUR/litre and diesel is
| 1.60EUR/l.
|
| With these prices it's really hard to justify driving an ICE
| vehicle.
| ttfkam wrote:
| Someday... someday... (sub)urban dwellers will wake up to cars
| being the problem, not the type of car.
|
| Yep, EVs are better than ICEs. Public transportation and proper
| infrastructure is far better (and cheaper overall).
|
| Get the public transit in order, and you don't need so many
| charging stations.
| freddref wrote:
| How about self driving cars as public transport?
| hotpotatoe wrote:
| Doesn't solve the underlying problems that are caused by
| having car-centric cities. Walkable cities where most
| people's needs are meet within walking distance and the mass
| transit for times you need to further is the real solution.
| freddref wrote:
| Agree on walkable, although I really like the idea of
| personal public transport that would be door-to-door and
| on-demand. I expect it would distribute cities more, and
| alleviate the hub-and-spoke model that public transport is
| sometimes built to, e.g. Dublin, Ireland.
| ufo wrote:
| Cars are carry less people per area of road than buses do and
| it's even worse for self driving cars that are empty half the
| time.
| freddref wrote:
| My car is empty 99% of the time, it could be very highly
| utilised by the general public.
| wolfram74 wrote:
| Given the current lower bound of one passenger in
| personal vehicles the process for using driverless cars
| needs to incentivize car pooling to the point that the
| average occupancy of traveling cars is considerably above
| 1 to make up for all the cars taking up road space while
| empty.
|
| There is a possibility of municipalities having many mid
| to large vans that do routes at higher frequencies
| because they don't need drivers.
| api wrote:
| I live in the Midwest and the biggest issue I see here is that
| all the fast chargers are in the cities, which is precisely where
| you don't need many of them. There are not _nearly_ enough along
| interstates between cities, which is where you need them for road
| trips.
|
| We charge our EV in our garage and that's fine for 95% of all
| driving. For apartments having outlets or simple L2 charging
| would be perfectly adequate.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| How hard could it be to add chargers to most gas stations? Just
| add them to the front of the building where the row of parking
| spots is. Bet they'd sell a lot more snacks, too.
| bottle_roket wrote:
| Yeah but who wants to spend 45 minutes sitting around in a gas
| station parking lot? It be much nicer to install them in
| roadside rest stops, city/state parks, or near dense clusters
| of businesses.
| Bulkington wrote:
| This deals mainly with commercial vehicle electrification, but
| the broader discussion is on topic: Grid not ready, not close.
| https://www.fleetowner.com/emissions-efficiency/video/550204...
|
| Money chart (2022) is here:
| https://www.fleetowner.com/perspectives/running-lights/blog/...
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I'm wondering if there is a way to calculate the peak KW amount
| during Christmas or Thanksgiving or any national holidays, for
| Quebec. My friends said it's going to break the infras but I'm
| just curious. It's actually pretty frequent, not just once a
| year, not two, but probably 4-6 per year.
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