[HN Gopher] Cannabis use linked to epigenetic changes, study rev...
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Cannabis use linked to epigenetic changes, study reveals
Author : XzetaU8
Score : 38 points
Date : 2024-05-25 19:04 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sciencealert.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sciencealert.com)
| aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote:
| > It's important to note that this study doesn't prove that
| cannabis directly causes these changes or causes health problems.
|
| Well okay then.
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| jrflowers wrote:
| That's literally the only substantive information in the
| article. Aside from that sentence the article can be
| summarized as "we saw some changes and it is outside the
| scope of this study to figure out what, if any, impact they
| have"
|
| The correct response to this article is a shrug
| dang wrote:
| This may all be true, but the guideline still applies.
| tombert wrote:
| I will admit that I have a borderline-irrational hatred for weed
| culture, so consider this a disclosure of biases [1].
|
| Despite the lecture I've gotten from every stoner on this, I've
| never been convinced by people claiming that weed doesn't have
| side effects. It always seemed like it would make my friends'
| personalities frustrating, even when they weren't stoned. A lot
| of this could just be attributed to the fact that "teenage boys
| are just kind of insufferable anyway", but it always seemed like
| weed exacerbated things. [2]
|
| Obviously this isn't a study, just vibes on my end, so it can
| reasonably be dismissed immediately, but it does seem like my
| feelings on this stuff is being a little validated.
|
| [1] I still think it should be legal since I think enforcing it
| is worse than doing it, but I think it'll always make me
| uncomfortable
|
| [2] I was always terrified of doing any illegal drugs because I
| was always afraid that drug dealers would cut it with something
| horrible, so I to this day have never done any drugs that weren't
| federally legal.
| ludston wrote:
| Even if it doesn't have physical side effects, it certainly
| must have psychological ones.
|
| My pet theory is that people relying on substances to
| emotionally regulate can neglect to develop the regular skills
| that everybody who doesn't rely on substances use for emotional
| regulation. And that's why some 40 year old stoner's will seem
| to have the emotional maturity levels of teenagers.
| notyourwork wrote:
| Don't take this as a disagreement but I wonder from reading
| your comment: Is there a right way to live life?
|
| Your statement appears to be passing judgement to an adult
| using marijuana as a coping mechanism. Do you also have the
| same feeling for someone who takes a prescribed medicine for
| similar emotional regulation? I get there is a line here with
| certain mental disorders but if someone finds themselves
| better off (in their own opinion) by using marijuana who are
| you, or I to judge?
|
| Similarly, I don't judge the person who picks up their
| monthly Rx at the pharmacy, if it makes them feel good. At
| the end of the day people are just trying to live their life
| and be comfortable.
| ludston wrote:
| So long as they are choosing to live in such a way that
| improves the lives of the people around them to some degree
| of their abilities rather than burdening the rest of us
| then it's fine. Do all the drugs you want.
| mc32 wrote:
| As Tom Cruise[1] is wont to say, it masks rather than
| solves. I suppose it's up to the user to decide the
| acceptance of not addressing the root cause, but hiding it
| with chemicals.
|
| [1]Sure, he's out there with religion and stuff but he's
| pretty clear-headed there.
| tombert wrote:
| I don't think it's equivalent.
|
| If you're taking something like an antidepressant or
| something, it's because a mental health professional has
| indicated that they think you'll be better-able to deal
| with your issues with this thoroughly-tested, regulated
| item. At least in theory, the professional will be much
| better-suited to find the exact medication that will help
| you emotionally regulate.
|
| I've never done weed, but I have gotten drunk plenty of
| times when I was young (though not in quite awhile),
| especially when I got dumped by a girl that I really liked.
| Alcohol can be great in a very temporary sense to make you
| feel better and ignore your problems, but it's terrible at
| actually addressing the core issues, and it has a ton of
| other awful side-effects that might even make the
| underlying problems worse.
|
| I already said that I have a hatred of weed culture, and I
| stand by that, but as someone who does take mental health
| meds for depression, I do understand how appealing coping
| mechanisms can be, and I absolutely sympathize, but I think
| there are enough differences between prescribed meds and
| recreational drugs to where I don't think it's fair to
| claim that the former is a coping mechanism.
| ludston wrote:
| I think it is equivalent. It's not by default, a bad
| thing to take drugs in order to help control your mood. I
| am certainly an enjoyer of alchohol on rare occasions.
|
| It just becomes a problem when your dependence on it
| causes you to become anti-social and/or generally a
| burden upon the people around you. For example you end up
| in the psychiatric hospital, costing the tax-payer 100's
| of thousands of dollars to baby-sit you whilst you
| recover from your latest meth bender.
| BoingBoomTschak wrote:
| >Don't take this as a disagreement but I wonder from
| reading your comment: Is there a right way to live life?
|
| This question has had a clear answer for millennia,
| although one too uncomfortable for modern feelgood
| relativists: confronting your problems with strength and
| willpower.
| roughly wrote:
| > Your statement appears to be passing judgement to an
| adult using marijuana as a coping mechanism. Do you also
| have the same feeling for someone who takes a prescribed
| medicine for similar emotional regulation? I get there is a
| line here with certain mental disorders but if someone
| finds themselves better off (in their own opinion) by using
| marijuana who are you, or I to judge?
|
| I think there's a point where it becomes clear use of the
| drug is leading to sufficiently negative life outcomes that
| the drug's doing more harm than good. Alcohol's an easy
| case here (and a trigger word, so: I'm not comparing
| alcohol to weed from a health perspective) - many of us
| will have a pint or a glass of wine now and again to relax,
| but when you start drinking enough that it's regularly
| preventing you from meeting your obligations (or desires),
| you should re-evaluate. It can happen with prescription
| drugs, as well - a friend of mine was prescribed something
| for anxiety that wound up effectively rendering them
| homebound. At that point, it's not really serving its
| purpose as a coping mechanism.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _Do you also have the same feeling for someone who takes
| a prescribed medicine for similar emotional regulation?_
|
| We don't need to go even that far. Upwards of 50% of people
| in the US, and some 20-30% people on the planet[0] are
| emotionally self-regulating with _coffee_. 13% of the
| world[1] regulates themselves emotionally on tobacco. And
| let 's not even look at alcohol consumption rates. Or
| sugar.
|
| This is not to demonize any of it - just to point out that
| approximately every adult[2] uses some mind-altering
| substances in a ritual of emotional self-regulation. The
| drugs I mentioned above are some of the more potent ones,
| but they're so deeply embedded in our cultures, that we
| don't even notice it.
|
| --
|
| [0] - If we go with random stat I found here:
| https://coffee-rank.com/world-coffee-consumption-
| statistics/. I'm taking it at face value, since it feels
| close enough, and the exact number doesn't change my
| argument, unless it's a fraction of a percent.
|
| [1] - As of 2019, via https://www.thelancet.com/journals/la
| ncet/article/PIIS0140-6..., going with 1 billion smokers
| over 7.7 billion people on the planet.
|
| [2] - The numbers I gave above may not feel impressive, but
| note that the averages in the west are much higher, and
| then all those numbers are dragged down by including people
| aged 0-18 in the denominator.
| tombert wrote:
| I definitely feel like caffeine can absolutely be used as
| a coping mechanism; if nothing else it can help you
| ignore the "why am I not getting enough sleep?" question,
| for decades if you let it.
|
| I've never really drunk coffee because it always tasted
| like an ashtray to me, but I've had other things that
| gave me an unhealthy dependence on it. I don't drink
| caffeine anymore and it did force me to acknowledge a lot
| of bad sleep habits (both physiological and self-imposed)
| that I was able to (mostly) solve them as a result.
| szundi wrote:
| This is my experience within my high school class. Those who
| used alcohol and weed tended to be frustrated without them.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| First heard that from a hippie in the 1980s. For regular
| consumers who started in their teens, it seems definitely
| more right than wrong
| tombert wrote:
| I agree with everything you're saying; I think pretty much
| all non-prescribed drugs make it really easy to ignore
| underlying problems; it's why I don't drink caffeine anymore,
| since I feel like it allowed me to mask my symptoms of sleep
| apnea for around fifteen years.
|
| I still think there's a physiological element to the weed
| stuff as well, and I do think that the research seems to
| indicate that, but I don't know anything about medicine so I
| don't really know what I'm reading with the research.
| roughly wrote:
| > My pet theory is that people relying on substances to
| emotionally regulate can neglect to develop the regular
| skills that everybody who doesn't rely on substances use for
| emotional regulation.
|
| As I understand it, this is basically taken as a given in
| substance use therapy - there's some reason you're using this
| (to the degree it's having a negative impact), and it's
| probably to deal with some kind of emotional or psychological
| issue, and part of reducing substance use is working through
| those issues and building up strategies for dealing with them
| that don't include the drug.
| jrflowers wrote:
| What are the "regular skills" that everyone develops if they
| don't use substances?
| zikduruqe wrote:
| "Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make
| you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund
| terrorism, but, well son, pot makes you feel fine with being
| bored, and it's when you're bored that you should be learning
| some new skill or discovering some new science or being
| creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that
| you aren't good at anything."
|
| -- South Park, Season 6 episode called "My Future Self n' Me"
| klyrs wrote:
| As a long-time on-and-off habitual user, yeah, weed has side
| effects and stoner culture is stupid. At best, the heaviest
| users experience weed like coffee: without it, they're useless;
| with it, they're back to baseline.
| tombert wrote:
| Yeah, that's kind of been my outside observation. I don't
| drink coffee, but I have had a pretty unhealthy relationship
| with caffeine throughout most of my life. Obsessive Diet Coke
| drinker (now an obsessive Diet Coke Caffeine Free drinker),
| drinking upwards of a gallon a day, usually with a few energy
| drinks thrown in for good measure, and possibly even a NoDoz
| depending on the day.
|
| That much caffeine was definitely very bad for me, hence why
| I eventually quit cold turkey (that was one hell of a
| headache!), but for years it was something I very much
| depended on, in no small part because of my at the time
| undiagnosed sleep apnea, which the caffeine helped me ignore
| for many years, which is bad for obvious reasons.
|
| I sympathize with habitual weed users, basically any
| addictive drug is something we should be understanding of.
| Weed culture really bothers me because people let "stoner"
| become their entire identity.
| roughly wrote:
| As far as I can tell, there's very little one can do for any
| extended time without creating epigenetic changes. Epigenetic
| changes are durable changes in gene expression within the cell -
| we already know that fasting or food deprivation create
| epigenetic changes, and the mechanism of cell differentiation
| generally (muscle vs liver cells, say) is epigenetic.
|
| I'm not going to defend long-term high-level cannabis usage -
| I've got eyes - but I'd suspect we're going to find more things
| in the "causes epigenetic effects" bucket than not.
| toxicdevil wrote:
| Partially unrelated, but I always post this whenever cannabis is
| discussed, as a PSA.
|
| Proponents often say that this drug is harmless but in some
| people it's use can trigger psychiatric illnesses esp.
| schizophrenia and related disorders. In others it can actually
| exacerbate anxiety (its somewhat counter intuitive, just like
| some antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts). Some people
| are genetically more predisposed to the effects.
|
| This is a personal topic for me because cannabis (ab)use
| triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members,
| they had to be hospitalized multiple times (psych ward is no
| joke) and put on antipsychotics (which are also very hard on you
| and drain the life out of you). Their actions during the
| psychotic/manic phase disrupted their family and work lives. Both
| people were unwilling to cease cannabis use, citing its public
| acceptability and reasons like "it's legal", "you literally can't
| overdose on it", "a(n) (internet) doctor prescribed it to me for
| anxiety so I can use it", "everyone uses it and is fine", "xyz
| (popular celebrity) uses it". After multiple stints in the psych
| ward and the threat of government mandated treatments they were
| finally able to drop cannabis use, it then took them many months
| to come back to normal functioning.
| galdosdi wrote:
| Thank you. A big factor that excarbates this issue is that the
| legal cannabis industryha greedily amped up THC potency by an
| order of magnitude. 5% was typical in the 1990s. Today it's
| hard to find lower than 20%. And that's just plain flower,
| whereas many users vape instead which is even more potent and
| way easier to abuse by using all day at work and school
| secretly.
|
| Studies and anecdotes agree that higher potency means more
| symptoms of the sort you discuss and most importantly more
| addiction and habit forming. So the industry does this on
| purpose out of greed, and the states have no clue how to stop
| it.
|
| What do you think would happen if after the 1930s alcohol had
| been relegalized but suddenly only high proof vodka was
| available?
|
| Because that is the disaster that has happened with legal weed.
| We thought we were legalizing the weed we knew and instead they
| used it as a door to carpet bomb us with ultra high potency
| products.
|
| The cause of this fiasco is again, greed.
| bdcravens wrote:
| Is there a way to dilute it?
| apwell23 wrote:
| yes. consume less of it.
| galdosdi wrote:
| No, because the high potency stuff merely increases THC but
| does not increase and in fact often decreases other
| psychoactive compounds like CBD. It will not be the same.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > greedily amped up THC potency
|
| This had been going on for decades as a result of the
| prohibition on the substance and the criminal penalties
| associated with it.
|
| > 5% was typical in the 1990s
|
| What is your source for this assertion?
|
| > vape instead
|
| Is there a source for this as well?
|
| > which is even more potent
|
| The material used in vaporizers is typically from
| concentrated extracts. This is another product born out of
| the long standing legal status of the flower. The real
| question is, are users consuming _more_ when they vape as
| opposed to other methods, or is this simply a more efficient
| delivery mechanism for them?
|
| > So the industry does this on purpose out of greed
|
| You're ignoring edibles entirely. These products really
| didn't exist before legalization. A large segment of these
| products are much lower dose than the other specialty
| products and often have reduced THC in favor of higher CBD,
| CBG or CBN.
|
| > but suddenly only high proof vodka was available?
|
| Pure grain alcohol from stills has always been available.
|
| > they used it as a door to carpet bomb us with ultra high
| potency products.
|
| This single minded focus on potency of product and not on the
| impact of users is unusual. Why have you made this such a
| focus?
| canucker2016 wrote:
| inserting myself into this thread...
|
| from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312155/:
|
| "Many people who have voted for legalization thought they
| were talking about the marijuana of the 1960s to 1980s when
| the THC content was less than 2%. ...
|
| Prior to the 1990s it was less than 2%. In the 1990s it
| grew to 4%, and between 1995 and 2015 there has been a 212%
| increase in THC content in the marijuana flower. In 2017
| the most popular strains found in dispensaries in Colorado
| had a range of THC content from 17-28% such as found in the
| popular strain named "Girl Scout Cookie."2 Sadly these
| plants producing high levels of THC are incapable of
| producing much CBD, the protective component of the plant
| so these strains have minimal CBD. For example the Girl
| Scout Cookie strain has only 0.09-0.2% CBD."
|
| from https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/not-your-
| grandmothers...:
|
| "... In 1995, the average THC content in cannabis seized by
| the Drug Enforcement Administration was about 4%. By 2017,
| it had risen to 17% and continues to increase. Beyond the
| plant, a staggering array of other cannabis products with
| an even higher THC content like dabs, oils, and edibles are
| readily available--some as high as 90%."
| voisin wrote:
| > Sadly these plants producing high levels of THC are
| incapable of producing much CBD, the protective component
| of the plant so these strains have minimal CBD
|
| What does that mean "the protective component of the
| plant"?
| rascul wrote:
| None of those links give actual references for the
| percents.
|
| As an anecdote, in the late 90s and early 00s, the higher
| potency stuff was quite prevalent in my circles. The low
| potency dirt weed was was basically worthless and we
| would only get it if we were desperate, but it was
| readily available.
| apwell23 wrote:
| how do you know that they were just using cannabis?
| nyokodo wrote:
| > cannabis (ab)use triggered psychotic episodes in two of my
| close family members, they had to be hospitalized multiple
| times (psych ward is no joke)
|
| There are additional risks for those experiencing psychotic
| episodes over and above the obvious as they can fall afoul of
| other social problems like police brutality.[1] So, if you have
| a family history of mental illness, but especially a history of
| psychotic episodes related to cannabis use (!!!), it's very
| foolish to use cannabis.
|
| 1. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna149646
| ragestorm wrote:
| Weed is not harmless. The question I always ponder is if it's
| more harmful than X. Alcohol, methamphetamines, etc.
|
| Rescheduling is a start for more research into whether weed is
| causing these episodes or highlighting other underlying causes.
|
| It seems like your friends arguement that it's legal for
| continued use is asinine. Plenty of prescription drugs are
| legal per se but would have adverse effects for some.
| tigershark wrote:
| Good call, here cannabis damaging effects are usually minimised
| and hidden under the rug. And you will always, always find
| someone telling you "what about alcohol"
| grubbs wrote:
| I get the "what about alcohol" argument from the standpoint
| of being able to make your own decision to do a drug without
| the government interfering.
|
| But it's not an argument to prove that weed is harmless. Its
| definitely not.
| maga_2020 wrote:
| We live in the time when there is sharp decline in trust of
| public institutions and academia.
|
| What is considered 'safe' to use, or 'unsafe' -- is debated at
| the level of a layman (a person without specialized knowledge
| in chemistry, biology, immunology, etc).
|
| We cannot all be specialists in human biology, finance,
| internet security / etc. And that's being exploited by powerful
| organizations.
|
| When the above happens, and we feel taken-advantage-of we tend
| to 'default' to our 'localized' experiences and instincts.
|
| For me, and I am sure many others I do 2 things
|
| a) I trust the NIH positions and articles before 1994 or so,
| much more than the most recent ones (on the topics that rely on
| observational statics)
|
| b) I tend to do research on these topic across countries
| (especially if I can translate, of non-English speaking
| countries).
|
| Forums like this one, may amplify just one side of the view
| (recently publish observational stats, English-speaking ).
|
| My suggestion, if I may offer one -- continue to be cautious
| and use information sources that are 'balanced'.
| Beijinger wrote:
| "This is a personal topic for me because cannabis (ab)use
| triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members"
|
| Not a big fan of cannabis. But, did Cannabis trigger a
| psychosis or are psychotic people more likely to smoke
| cannabis?
|
| Why do patients with schizophrenia smoke? [Cigarettes, not
| dope] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20051860/
| hnthrowaway0328 wrote:
| It messes with the brain. I'd be careful about using it for non
| medical purposes, even whe it's legal.
| puffybuf wrote:
| My biggest concern with weed is that it stays in your system for
| a long time, much longer than the actual high. THC is fat
| soluble, getting stored in the body's fatty tissue, and can
| slowly enter the blood days after using. This means it can affect
| you for days. I usually feel off for 24 hours after vaping
| cannabis.
|
| My other concern for legal states: I think a lot of people using
| weed are doing it every single day. This is because it gives a
| relaxing 'weight off your shoulders' feeling at lower doses. At
| higher doses you get 'faded' and it can be scary. Using daily
| means the high becomes your new normal, affecting memory and
| reasoning.
|
| It definitely helps with exercise (much less boring) and sleep
| for me, but at what cost?
| grubbs wrote:
| Edibles also seem to make my body work overtime to process. I
| always feel like crap the next day.
| ok_dad wrote:
| Every story in here, for or against cannabis, basically has no
| evidence. A lot of stories about people who went nuts when they
| took weed, but no studies of if the weed caused it or just
| revealed it. A lot of stereotypes for people who took weed. A lot
| of people saying weed is scary or perfectly normal.
|
| A lot of stories with no studies or experiments. I hope the
| rescheduling helps this in the USA.
| wfhBrian wrote:
| Reading HN causes epigenetic changes...
|
| If you don't get that, then you don't understand epigenetics
|
| My impression of this thread is "I don't know the difference
| between genetics and epigenetics, so here is my opinion on
| weed..."
|
| The only reason I know the difference is because I used to use
| the gym at the same time as an epigeneticist.
|
| In short, all genes can be flipped on/off based on their
| environment.
|
| And reading HN does impact the environment in which your genes
| live
| aarmenaa wrote:
| I presume the uptick I've noticed of "weed is really bad,
| actually" articles filling my news feed and social media is a
| response to the imminent classification changes in the US in an
| attempt to sway public opinion. I can only assume this is being
| driven by parties with ill intent, who prefer the status quo of
| using the phrase "I smell weed" to end-run constitutional
| protections against search and seizure, allowing unequal
| enforcement of the law, and selling less effective but more
| expensive treatments for ailments cannabis is known to be
| effective for.
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