[HN Gopher] Japan's clothes-drying bathrooms
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Japan's clothes-drying bathrooms
Author : Luc
Score : 69 points
Date : 2024-05-25 13:50 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
| kibwen wrote:
| Very cool, I didn't realize this was a thing. I've actually had
| the same idea, of having a pole over the tub to hang wet clothes
| on with a heat pump to blow warm air over them. Even if you don't
| mind how energy-wasteful tumble-dryers are, the amount of damage
| they do to your clothes is just astonishing. Every time you clean
| out your lint trap, you're collecting the shreds that have been
| torn off your clothes by the dryer. It just feels terrible.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Heating an entire room for 3 hours seems a lot more wasteful
| than heating a small tumble dryer for 1.5.
| kibwen wrote:
| The objective is not to heat the room, the goal is just to
| keep the air warm enough and dry enough that evaporation can
| occur in a timely enough fashion that your clothes don't get
| musty.
|
| Furthermore, with a standard tumble dryer, you're definitely
| not just heating a small space. Go look at the outside of
| your house where your dryer exhaust is and look at all the
| hot air that it's constantly spewing outside. All that energy
| is just being wasted.
| Filligree wrote:
| Dryer... exhaust? A what now?
| leguminous wrote:
| I assume that, if you aren't being sarcastic, you're
| European? Or at least not American?
|
| You're currently down voted, but many Americans probably
| don't realize that some countries don't allow vented
| dryers. Vented dryers are standard here and many
| Americans have never seen anything else. They are indeed
| terribly inefficient, using the nice, conditioned, inside
| air once, heating it and then dumping it outside. All the
| air that is exhausted from the inside has to get replaced
| with air from the outside and has to be heated or cooled
| again.
| harshreality wrote:
| As one of "[those] Americans", I take it that those
| dryers remove moisture with a condenser loop and a water
| collector, like an indoor dehumidifier would?
| Filligree wrote:
| Yes, it's going to either have a piped output or a
| collection tank. Both are common. The water ends up warm,
| so a collection tank is more efficient.
| card_zero wrote:
| Thus dumping the heat _inside_ the house.
| Filligree wrote:
| European, yes. I've never even seen a drier with an
| exhaust, and it didn't seem like a sensible option to
| consider.
|
| Aren't heat pumps far more common in America than Europe?
| Why is it backwards for driers?
| to11mtm wrote:
| Heat pumps are becoming more common but almost every home
| or apartment I have lived in used Natural gas for heating
| and maybe a wall mounted or central A/C unit.
|
| Some homes in Detroit don't quite have modern HVAC
| ducting, instead using 'water circulated' heating.
| Theoretically they can 'cool' but IDK if I remember
| seeing that in a commercial/municipal building/school or
| if that was just a fever dream. That said, some buildings
| will use a 'shared steam' system (My college had Shared
| Steam for all the class buildings, IIRC lots of buildings
| in downtown Detroit have one.)
|
| But those examples are in a specific part of the rust
| belt.
|
| Up in the far NE (i.e. Maine, NH, etc) the remote areas
| use 'heating oil' and that may be harder to change;
| putting NG lines in would be unprofitable, and when the
| power goes out a heat pump is going to be, relatively,
| larger capacity drain than a blower on whatever's burning
| the heating oil. Only way to mitigate that would be an
| even larger generator, or an even larger bank of
| batteries.
|
| Which is a long way of saying, 'it depends'. And Heat
| pumps are 'relatively new' commercially. People won't be
| driven to replace until the cost of a repair vs cost of a
| new heat pump unit 'makes sense' financially (i.e. it's
| possible just getting a heat pump in may be 'cheaper'
| than whatever repair is needed within a certain
| timeframe... but to make the determination, someone first
| has to bother to do the math.)
| Filligree wrote:
| > Heat pumps are becoming more common but almost every
| home or apartment I have lived in used Natural gas for
| heating and maybe a wall mounted or central A/C unit.
|
| A/C units are heat pumps. Are you saying yours can't do
| heating as well?
|
| We just installed an air-air heat pump at the cottage up
| in northern Norway. 4kW of heating (or cooling) for 800W
| of power, all on an off-grid solar system. :)
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Modern high efficiency heat pump dryers don't have any
| exhaust. In the UK dryers have never had an exhaust.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Is this more energy efficient than a normal dryer?
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Seems highly unlikely. They say it takes 3 hours. Tumble dryer
| is a smaller space and doesnt take as long.
| dymk wrote:
| It uses a heat pump, so it's certainly much more efficient
| than a dryer that uses gas or resistive heating element.
| Like, by a lot.
|
| That being said, energy prices in the US are a lot lower, so
| the incentive to lower energy usage isn't there.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Efficient dryers also use heat pumps (ours does).
| saagarjha wrote:
| Not all of the US, of course. We have plenty of incentive
| to reduce our energy use in the Bay Area :)
| deinonychus wrote:
| I used one of these while vacationing last month. The system
| had a 3 hour timer but you usually had to run a few cycles or
| be diligent about rotating your overlapping and touching
| clothes to eliminate wet spots. The unheated fan also seemed
| to run 24/7 to prevent mold so I am curious what the energy
| bill for the shower was.
|
| A big factor I haven't seen anyone mention ITT is that you're
| pretty limited on space on the shower curtain rod. You can
| only hang up a few garments on there. Which makes sense
| because our washer was quite small, too, but still produced
| more wet laundry than the shower could dry. Back to drying -
| you can go and hang up clothes on hangers to use the shower
| rod more efficiently but that: 1) is really annoying to do
| all the time, and 2) still takes a lot of time because now
| parts of your shirt are almost 3 feet away from the heat and
| circulating air, instead of 3 inches.
|
| The entire setup was very interesting but required the
| specific bathroom/shower layout and added a lot of friction
| to my day. Maybe natives have figured out the annoyances I
| didn't in my 2 weeks of vacation.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Modern heat pump tumble dryers dont use really hot air, so dont
| damage clothes as much, and are very efficient.
| kieloo wrote:
| That's what I was told when I bought a Miele tumble dryer. And
| while it's convenient, I now only use it for socks and bed
| sheets because it shrinks my clothes a lot. I don't know if
| it's better than older dryers but it's not great.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| When you take the clothes out, are they hot or lukewarm? Mine
| are lukewarm, and it doesn't seem possible that heat could
| damage (and it never does). Other, regular type (high heat)
| dryers do regularly damage fragile clothes.
| kieloo wrote:
| Lukewarm. I'm not sure what causes it but it tends to
| shrink them quite badly.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Is the dryer large enough so that the clothes can tumble
| (rather than being stuck in place)?
| to11mtm wrote:
| Good question.
|
| If the clothes aren't moving well enough for them or air
| to move around, heat pockets can easily lead to shrinkage
| (or 'cigarette burn' holes in high-polyester shirts).
|
| The scenario where after one long round _some_ of your
| stuff is dry (or even shrunk /damaged) but others are
| still damp? Probably a sign of an overload or bad load
| (e.x. comforters + anything but MAYBE sheets tends to be
| a bad idea...) Or your socks were still balled from the
| washer and they should be unballed and rewashed b/c they
| are probably not that clean.
|
| If you are overloading a dryer, I've found it best take
| some clothes out and -not- overload it if you can. I had
| a very 'consistent' clothing load and a _lot_ of free
| time during covid, and more or less 'found' that with my
| dryer, splitting an overload into two normal loads takes
| about as long as
|
| If you -can't-, try to do as many of these as you can:
|
| 1. Do -not- try to bump up the temp to overcompensate for
| the load size. If anything you may want to prefer a lower
| temperature.
|
| 2. Prefer shorter 'rounds' of 20-30 minutes, and manually
| 'rotate/redistribute' the clothing between each round.
| This way if the clothes aren't tumbling, you are at least
| making sure there's some rotation. Ideally you're able to
| get to the thing within a minute or two to check the
| rotation and re-start to keep this semi energy
| efficient... This is a bit easier if you're at a
| 'laundromat' or have laundry as part of a weekend
| cleaning routine or whatever. The good thing is, this
| will probably help the overall load finish faster
| regardless.
|
| 3. Per the comment about the socks... have some
| mindfulness in transferring the overload. At least in the
| US it likely means the washer overloaded too (I know
| other countries may have smaller driers vs washers etc),
| and I have seen plenty of washes where one of two pieces
| of clothing just didn't have anywhere to let the water
| out during the spin. Leave those in the washer till you
| transfer the others, then try to get the water out. Don't
| wring the clothing, but consider gently pressing it (for
| a T-shirt, 'foliding' it and a squeeze over the washer
| basin will do the job as long as you're gentle about it,
| or you can 'press' it against, or just run it on a spin
| or in the next load.)
| konschubert wrote:
| Mine is always full of lint, and my jeans are now ripping
| within a year or two, instead of 5 years when I didn't have a
| dryer.
| prmoustache wrote:
| That is not my experience.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| In what way?
| throw383y8 wrote:
| Dehumidifier in small closed space, like bathroom, Works great.
| Tumble dryers are horrible for clothes.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Agreed. We run one in our bathroom 24/7. Bonus is that it dries
| the daily towels too.
| grose wrote:
| I have one of these in my home (in Tokyo). Honestly... they kind
| of suck. The lint from your clothes clogs your drains and vents
| even faster than normal (you're supposed to use a plastic slab
| cover thing over your bath, which requires a lot of maintenance
| or it gets gross very quickly). It renders your shower unusable
| for hours at time, so if you live with other people it makes
| coordination of laundry/showers much more complex. Would not
| recommend. I got a regular washer/dryer combo unit recently and
| it markedly improved the quality of my life.
| bemmu wrote:
| I also live in Japan. Here people bathe in the evening, while
| I'm finding it hard to shake my habit of taking a morning
| shower (spend the whole day dirty? ick).
|
| This means if it's raining, we'll have clothes drying in the
| bathroom, which I'll then need to move out to take a shower.
| Whether it makes sense to then put them back in to the now wet
| bathroom with the dryer running I'm not sure.
| grose wrote:
| Haha, I know exactly how you feel. I too often wondered about
| the optimal timing for clothes reinsertion... at least the
| dryer unit is pretty good at drying out the shower which
| seems to help with mold, so even if you're not using it for
| clothes it still serves a purpose.
| schumpeter wrote:
| I find this interesting... I grew up in a Latin family and
| learned to shower at night. I rationalized it as, not going
| to bed dirty, and you aren't going to get dirtier just
| sleeping anyway.
| derefr wrote:
| > you aren't going to get dirtier just sleeping anyway
|
| I don't shower to wash off dirt; I shower to wash off my
| own body's excretions. Which definitely _do_ happen while
| I'm sleeping (and more so, in fact, because body
| temperature rises during sleep.)
|
| I can shower, dry thoroughly, get straight into bed... and
| still, the next morning, I'm sticky from sweat; have BO
| (that deodorant won't mask); and my hair is now stuck
| moussed by my own overnight scalp oils into looking like
| Goku.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Indeed. I think this may be down to individual
| preferences, with all sorts of things affecting it.
| Retric wrote:
| > because body temperature rises during sleep
|
| You have that backwards. "People maintain a fairly
| consistent body temperature during the day which drops at
| night by around 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit. However, some
| people still feel hot at night due to their unique body
| composition, sleep environment, something they ate or
| drank, or other medical reasons."
| https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-faqs/why-do-i-get-
| so-h....
|
| Deeper look: "Core body temperature (CBT) reductions
| occur before and during the sleep period, with the extent
| of presleep reductions corresponding to sleep onset and
| quality." https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152
| /japplphysiol...
| Izkata wrote:
| In my family, parents showered in the morning and kids
| showered at night.
|
| I tried switching after moving out but didn't find it nice
| for the same reason you mention, getting the bed all dirty
| with whatever sweat had accumulated over the day.
| klyrs wrote:
| Night sweats be damned.
| sumnole wrote:
| By an air conditioning unit.
| raydev wrote:
| As if that stops your body from producing oils and sweat.
| klyrs wrote:
| Thanks for the useless advice, random internet stranger!
| Not all night sweats are remedied so easily...
|
| https://www.healthline.com/health/night-sweats
| dymk wrote:
| I'm in the habit of a shower in the morning and a quick
| rinse shower before bed. Idk why people limit themselves to
| grooming only at a single point in the day.
| to11mtm wrote:
| For me the answer is 'it depends'.
|
| Currently our home's AC is out which has resulted in two
| showers/day due to the heat. Post exercise is going to at
| least be a hot rinse.
|
| The irony (pun semi-intended) is my wife has gotten fond of
| at times hanging clothes in the bathroom during a shower to
| help remove wrinkles. No, Ironing is better but it's a
| little less ceremony as well as increasing the overall
| utility of the water you used in the shower.
| AuryGlenz wrote:
| I'm simply way too greasy of a person to shower at night.
| I'd rather sleep through the part where it's built up the
| most, not waste the first 8 hours of being less greasy when
| I'm sleeping.
|
| I suppose different genetics in different regions might
| play into that.
| Nux wrote:
| Yep, also the Eastern European way. Always found it
| counterintuitive when watching American films.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I've always showered at night, and I now can't fall asleep
| dirty. I feel all sticky and gross.
|
| I think I wake up still basically clean, not filthier than
| morning showerers. I am of course a biased observer for
| that.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| I'm glad I'm in the US where I shower whenever I want.
| Morning, middle of the day, and at night again.
|
| I grew up in 3rd world without running water, so I'm not ever
| going to feel "guilty" or whatever other BS for taking 2-3
| showers a day.
| rambojohnson wrote:
| do you sleep walk outside all night?
| langsoul-com wrote:
| Even in the summer? Most South East Asian nations shower in
| the evening because of the mad heat and humidity.
| grose wrote:
| To add on to this: I think they are mostly intended as an
| "emergency backup" for people who usually hang dry their
| clothes outside to use when it's raining, etc. If you're not
| using it as your primary drying method maybe it's not so bad?
| Having more than one shower probably helps too. Unfortunately I
| am not blessed with such a large space, and my balcony is
| pitifully small :)
| qingcharles wrote:
| Is it common to hang laundry outside in Japan even in cities?
| The USA has made hanging laundry a no-no across most of the
| country, for aesthetic reasons I guess. It's very common in
| Europe, though.
| grose wrote:
| Very common, although some especially fancy buildings have
| rules against it. Probably a similar rate as Europe.
| csa wrote:
| > Is it common to hang laundry outside in Japan even in
| cities?
|
| Yes.
|
| In fact, the minami-muki (south-facing) places garner a
| premium precisely for this purpose -- much more of direct
| sun.
| Larrikin wrote:
| I've never seen a dryer in Japan except at laundromats and
| the dorm. If you live in an amazing high rise in Tokyo
| without a balcony you'll have the fancy in bathroom hot air
| system. If you live in a crappy place without a balcony
| (which actually is kinda rare), you'll still have a pole to
| hang your clothes out the window.
|
| My first time staying there I was told regulations make
| dryers take so long that it just isn't worth the
| electricity cost. The one time I used the dryer in Japan,
| my clothes were just a warm damp after two cycles.
| SapporoChris wrote:
| I have used dryers in multiple location in Japan with
| primarily good experience. Coin laundry clothes drying
| machine: exceedingly powerful, no issues except for cost
| and convenience. Dryers in hotels: small capacity (7-9
| kg), 30 minute cycle usually complete in 45 minutes of
| drying. Bad experience with washer dryer combo, could be
| programmed to wash and then dry clothing however the
| installers did not attach vent hose so it would fill the
| apartment with hot air and lint.
|
| I have also used shower dryers. Very pleasant. Controls
| are outside the shower and the shower was separate from
| the toilet. I didn't note any issues with lint, however,
| I had weekly cleaning service that was probably dealing
| with it.
|
| I've also lived in Japan without a dryer at all. Hanging
| clothes on the balcony to dry or inside when it's
| raining. It seems to me that clothes last a lot longer
| when they're air dried.
| tjpnz wrote:
| Our apartment complex is undergoing renovations right now and
| we're not able to use the balcony for drying clothes - so we're
| using ours for everything. There certainly are logistics
| involved and reconfiguring the shower area (wife's up early)
| every morning is now part of my routine.
|
| Under normal circumstances I do appreciate the quick work
| they'll make of the occasional pair of jeans.
| ch33zer wrote:
| For the year I lived in Japan I also found the capacity quite
| limited, and my clothes dried very slowly.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I'm confused, how do these generate any lint and how would that
| clog drains or vents?
|
| Dryer lint is produced by the abrasion of clothes as they
| tumble in your dryer.
|
| Hang drying doesn't produce lint. It seems like this is just
| hang drying but circulating warmer drier air to speed it up.
|
| So I must be misunderstanding something. How is this generating
| lint that clogs your drain? Why do you have to put a plastic
| cover down at all? I don't put any kind of cover on my floor
| when I air-dry my T shirts on a rack after washing. (I don't
| like them shrinking in my dryer.)
| grose wrote:
| It's not as intense as regular dryer lint. Seems to be like
| small bits of thread that fall off during the drying process
| (perhaps coming off during tumble wash and sticking to it
| while wet?). There's a pretty strong gust of air coming from
| the dryer. My unit came with panels fitted for the bathtub
| and instructions to use when drying, it's a bath/shower combo
| thing.
| matchamatcha wrote:
| I would like to have this to avoid the mold that seems to appear
| inevitably in indoor bathrooms.
|
| When I lived in Japan, we used air dehumidifiers, clotheslines on
| the roof, or the huge tumble dryers at the coin laundry. Tokyo
| summer sun and wind make clothes dry real quick.
| 123yawaworht456 wrote:
| uh... mold is not inevitable at all, fren.
| aaron695 wrote:
| Heat pump dryers dry at a lower temperature, have auto-shutoff
| with sensors and no venting so are far better for your clothing
| and the room.
|
| Normal dryers can do some of this, but it seems heat pump dryers
| are making the leap.
|
| Blurb - https://www.bosch-home.com.sg/experience-bosch/living-
| with-b...
|
| The catch is heat pump dryers cost more [?]
| everybodyknows wrote:
| The linked page doesn't say how the extracted water is disposed
| of. Is a plumbed in-drain required?
| digdigdag wrote:
| How about we continue using something more convenient like a
| standalone dryer and focus our energy usage reduction on the
| largest target -- which is manufacturing by a whopping 76% of the
| total electricity consumption in the United States
| (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/industry.p...)
| as well as transportation. Nothing else comes close.
|
| Quirky Japanese technology is not the solution.
| throwaway4aday wrote:
| Why fight an uphill battle for reduction in manufacturing when
| you can get rich by being the first to offer cost competitive
| on-site carbon free power production? Forget marketing rooftop
| solar to households, you should be selling micro-nuclear to
| steel and cement plants.
| habitue wrote:
| As a society, it makes more sense to figure out how to
| generate more clean energy (rather than to try to reduce our
| energy usage).
|
| But as an individual who wants to do something, and in
| principle has an incentive to reduce their energy bill,
| reducing consumption is the main thing under their control.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> which is manufacturing by a whopping 76% of the total
| electricity consumption in the United States_
|
| According to that link, manufacturing represents 76% of
| industrial energy consumption, not total energy consumption.
| causality0 wrote:
| _and it's fairly environmentally friendly, as the energy demands
| of a yokushitsu kansouki are modest compared with a tumble
| dryer._
|
| [citation needed]
|
| What I really want is a dryer that uses the hot air from my AC to
| dry clothes.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Sounds like a good low-cost product. A duct, a box and a few
| rails to hang the clothes on.
| dymk wrote:
| The citation is that they use a heat pump. They're 3-4x as
| efficient at heating compared to resistive heaters.
| causality0 wrote:
| Tumble dryers can also use heat pumps now.
| dymk wrote:
| 99.9% of them do not. "Tumble dryer" means resistive or gas
| heating unless otherwise specified.
| causality0 wrote:
| What are you talking about? Even ten years ago heat pump
| dryers made up 43% of dryer sales in Europe, and it's
| only gone up.
|
| https://storage.topten.eu/source/files/EEDAL15_Eric_Bush_
| Hea...
| treflop wrote:
| We used a yokushitsu kansouki a lot when I was traveling in Japan
| and they were were awesome but I felt it was not as practical if
| you had a lot of laundry. Plus the having to shower thing made it
| annoying sometimes.
|
| I do hang dry some clothes at home but at the end of the day, I
| accept the damage that a dryer does because it allows me to spend
| a lot less time to clean a lot more clothes and therefore I do
| laundry way less and spend less time on it.
|
| I did like it for drying out the bathroom quicker so it wouldn't
| grow mold though.
| jjw1414 wrote:
| My first thought was of the old "Ronco Shower/Blow Dryer in a
| Briefcase" skit with Martin Short on SCTV
| (https://youtu.be/eTHvF2aAi50?si=JmPQsvjV6YtpWjQw). "Why you...."
| prmoustache wrote:
| I am surprised to hear about the high statistics of tumble dryer
| usage in the US compared to us europeans.
|
| I mean, it looks to me like people tend to have more space on
| average in the USA, why wouldn't they want to prefer to dry their
| clothes outdoor and makes them last longer? Even when I owned a
| tumble drier, I only used it for emergencies or wet days. I also
| found out that on wet days a deshumidifier in a large room was
| still better for the longevity of my clothes than tumble drying.
| ProfessorLayton wrote:
| Only the most delicate garments get hung dry, but otherwise the
| dryer is used the vast majority of the time.
|
| As for the wear and tear, in my experience most of it came from
| the washing machine and not the dryer. Older washers with the
| agitator in the middle wore out my clothes a ton more than
| modern front-loaded machines, which also adjust wash time
| depending on load size. Dryers also have humidity sensors that
| adjust drying time, which is minimal as the washer spins at
| 1,200 rpm.
|
| Lastly, hang drying also has its own wear if done outside:
| Color fading from the sun.
|
| In the end it just isn't worth the hassle (for me).
| adrianmonk wrote:
| > _It consists of a heat pump embedded into a bathroom ceiling
| that blows out warm, dehumidified air onto clothes hung below.
| Heating the room to up to 35C (95F) to 40C, this room-sized
| clothes dryer can make short work of a load of washing (hung on a
| rail straddling the room) in about three hours._
|
| This might be fine in cooler climates, but here in Texas, I'm
| using AC more often than not, and this would fight against the
| AC, which seems wasteful.
|
| Point being, when something is done differently in different
| parts of the world, sometimes it's because a different solution
| works better in different circumstances.
| avar wrote:
| If you're going through the trouble of embedding an appliance
| in your ceiling you could just heat insulate the "drying room"
| from the rest of the house, and place a door on it that
| wouldn't allow air to pass through.
|
| Given that, I'd expect such a device to be more efficient in
| Texas, not less.
| Ajay-p wrote:
| In college my roommates and I discovered way to get free washing,
| but not drying. This meant we had to hang out clothes in the
| bathroom. The biggest problem with this was that it made the
| bathroom off limits to showers for two days, and the clothes were
| quite stiff and rough.
|
| I'm not entirely sure how the Japanese solution works, but I'm
| not convinced by this article to dispense with my tumble dryer.
| There is certainly a need to reduce energy use and the space
| washer and dryers take up, but not sure this is it.
| sntran wrote:
| I wonder how useful this is to be placed inside a van for that
| tiny "bathroom" area. We drive most of the day so the clothes can
| be dry in there, if the energy usage is efficient.
|
| Of course, clothes can be hung outside for the warmth of the sun,
| but this seems way cooler.
| avar wrote:
| If you want something really efficient for clothes drying in a
| van or mobile home just place a small junkyard car radiator in
| that tiny "bathroom", and hook the radiator up to your engine's
| coolant loop.
|
| As you're driving around your engine is already trying to vent
| heat to the outside, so you're mostly getting the heat "for
| free". The losses due to extending the coolant loop etc. will
| be comparatively minimal.
|
| The only tricky bit will be carefully managing thermostats to
| ensure that radiator won't be melting something is the
| bathroom, your coolant will get hot enough to boil water.
|
| A "it ain't dumb if it works" variant on that is to literally
| bolt a box to the top of your hood (depending on visibility
| etc.), then remove your hood's insulation, and possibly drill a
| hole to exchange air between the two. Anything in the "hot box"
| should dry as you drive around.
| nocoiner wrote:
| ,
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