[HN Gopher] Imperceptible sensors can be printed directly on hum...
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       Imperceptible sensors can be printed directly on human skin
        
       Author : geox
       Score  : 87 points
       Date   : 2024-05-24 11:22 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.cam.ac.uk)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.cam.ac.uk)
        
       | doublerabbit wrote:
       | Hello dystopian biological barcodes.
       | 
       | Unknown to the baby and enforced by martial law.
        
         | abathur wrote:
         | They are talking about printing something on a variety of
         | substrates including skin.
         | 
         | We constantly shed skin. The powers-that-be in whatever
         | dystopian mark-of-the-beast fantasy you're imagining would have
         | to regularly reapply these sensors, so they wouldn't remain
         | unknown for long.
         | 
         | Any power apparatus capable of regularly and forcibly applying
         | these sensors is certainly capable of just forcibly tattooing
         | (or microchipping) you.
        
           | fellowniusmonk wrote:
           | Thank you. For 40 years I've been hearing every benign or
           | ultimately useful piece of tech get labeled as the mark of
           | the beast or a "sign of the end times", I'm completely over
           | the supernatural evil garbage.
           | 
           | Tech can be misused and that's why democracy, privacy, etc.
           | is crucial, but these people always make these
           | weird/cheap/lazy, throwaway statements in a defeatist tone of
           | predetermined supernatural evil. It's such learned
           | helplessness.
           | 
           | Meanwhile many municipalities in modern countries have done
           | practical things like banned facial recognition from use by
           | law enforcement.
           | 
           | If it's a human source of evil we have human methods and
           | forms of governance to address the potential issues, but
           | these supernaturalist recommendations always seem to advocate
           | that the solution is to vote in this one dude that is God's
           | man.
           | 
           | 40 years of this crap and they've been wrong or hyperbolic to
           | the point of absurdity every damn time, all while eroding
           | their own freedoms via the policies their chosen champions
           | have passed any time a slightly real threat comes along.
        
         | more_corn wrote:
         | They are temporary biodegradable health sensors. This is not a
         | technology that leads to autocracy. If anyone wants that they
         | just tattoo.
         | 
         | I'm not saying humans aren't usually terrible, just that this
         | particular technology doesn't unlock any new or more nefarious
         | terribleness.
        
         | BobaFloutist wrote:
         | I don't think the thing preventing this level of control and
         | tracking from currently existing is the lack of technology.
        
         | iancmceachern wrote:
         | You are the one thinking of evil uses, not them
        
           | Minor49er wrote:
           | Historians, skeptics, and sci-fi authors must all be evil-
           | minded megalomaniacs
        
             | colonelpopcorn wrote:
             | I can't think of a historian, skeptic, or sci-fi author
             | who's had a level of power enough to disprove your
             | statement.
        
               | Minor49er wrote:
               | What does level of power have to do with imagining
               | possibilities?
        
               | knome wrote:
               | There's always L Ron Hubbard, but I'll assume he's a one
               | off aberration, as very few sci-fi authors veered off
               | into founding infamously belligerent religious cults.
               | 
               | That said, the idea that people in power wouldn't think
               | of ways to abuse pretty much any technology and that
               | considering such things is some personal fault of
               | @doublerabbit is quite the silly accusation for
               | @iancmceachern to have made.
        
               | iancmceachern wrote:
               | Hubbard is an example that proves the point, not a good
               | dude.
               | 
               | I wasn't comparing "people in power" to the parent
               | commenter.
               | 
               | I was comparing the study authors to the parent
               | commenter.
               | 
               | My point was, more globally, should we halt scientific
               | progress because things could be used with bad intent to
               | do bad? Where, and how, do we draw the line?
        
           | doodlebugging wrote:
           | Add me to that list of people who immediately thought of evil
           | uses for this material.
           | 
           | It is a perfect material to enable mental torture. Years ago
           | when I was a kid I had a newspaper route. From about 3 am to
           | 5:30-6:00 am each morning I rolled newspapers and then walked
           | or ran the route through my assigned neighborhood throwing
           | those rolled newspapers wherever the customers had requested
           | them to be in the morning.
           | 
           | One of the worst possible things that you could encounter
           | along the route were spider webs. Many of these homes had
           | large trees, hedges, etc that grew along sidewalks and
           | spiders are experts at bridging wide gaps with thin tendrils
           | of sticky web. I'm sure their workday started as soon as they
           | detected a break in the web and didn't end until they ran out
           | of food or mated and died. They were busy.
           | 
           | I learned to travel the worst parts of the route with a
           | newspaper held vertically at arm's length in front of my face
           | so that I minimized the chance that I would walk face-first
           | into a web and trap the spider on the wrong side of the web.
           | That had happened too many times and it was always
           | disconcerting to feel the web clinging to your face while
           | something alive is struggling to escape from underneath it
           | right beside your nostril.
           | 
           | That's why with the first mention of the properties and
           | diameter of this material the very first thought I had was an
           | unpleasant memory of a hungry spider, frantically trying to
           | escape his predicament and how this material would be most
           | effective as a torture device used to give people the
           | sensation that something is on their skin when in fact there
           | is nothing there.
           | 
           | It would also be a way to tickle someone without ever
           | touching them or to induce a feeling that things are crawling
           | on them.
           | 
           | I personally can see the utility in this sensor string for
           | the use cases noted in the article but I can also the very
           | real potential for abuse.
        
             | pizzaknife wrote:
             | this is what im here for. hell yeah.
        
               | doodlebugging wrote:
               | Glad I could help. I had to quit thinking about this
               | article since I had too many product ideas or potential
               | applications popping into my mind. Some were potentially
               | useful.
        
         | jjk166 wrote:
         | We've had tattoos for thousands of years.
        
         | astrange wrote:
         | You already shed unique identifiers everywhere you go in the
         | form of your DNA, and if someone cares they can pick them up.
        
       | ozten wrote:
       | A stepping stone to fulldive VR would being able to stimulate my
       | skin to think it is 10 degrees warmer than it actually is. You
       | probably could achive that with limited and targeted application.
       | I'd implant that system and have an artificial sun in my office.
        
         | astrange wrote:
         | I recommend getting a lot of really bright lights. It's the
         | peripheral vision of brightness that seems to matter more than
         | the temperature.
         | 
         | https://meaningness.com/sad-light-lumens
        
       | burnished wrote:
       | Oof, fullscreen cookie popup without a clear 'no thanks',
       | basically replaced the article for me. Unfortunate.
        
         | zelphirkalt wrote:
         | Imagine, popups IRL, based on unlawful tracking of where you
         | went, based on sensor info, from a sensor secretly printed onto
         | your skin.
        
           | red-iron-pine wrote:
           | secretly? brand it with a logo and people will go out of
           | their way to get it.
           | 
           | some dude wandering around with SUPREME on his forehead that
           | light up each time he shines a blacklight on it. and also
           | happens to track everywhere he goes
        
         | donclark wrote:
         | https://archive.md/OWY0m
        
       | robviren wrote:
       | Dang, between this, LLMs, and our lives being increasingly
       | digital The Onion strikes again.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoXQKumgCw
        
         | DonHopkins wrote:
         | That will totally drive them over the edge, and they will start
         | thinking that Biden sent the FBI to assassinate them with
         | deadly force, under the cover of searching their house for top
         | secret documents, that don't actually exist, and aren't even
         | classified, but were totally legal for them to steal anyway,
         | because they're absolutely immune, and above the law, and they
         | would have immediately given them back, if the government had
         | just asked in the first place!
        
         | rolandog wrote:
         | These news will not sit well with the "the clothes are made out
         | of textile microphones" people [0].
         | 
         | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40316918
         | 
         | Ah, wait, that's me.
        
           | Jerrrrry wrote:
           | Thank you, fascinating.
        
       | kristopolous wrote:
       | This is a clear candidate for conspiracy theory peddlers. I wish
       | people would write headlines better so these Internet fabulists
       | aren't just given t-balls for their wild stories
        
         | standardUser wrote:
         | The people who want to believe in nonsense conspiracies are not
         | going to be deterred just because we exert a bunch of extra
         | energy parsing our words just right.
        
           | kristopolous wrote:
           | The articles they link to are very few in number. It's like
           | under 6 or so.
           | 
           | They snag on to small quotes and tiny threads and recycle
           | them for decades. Fabrications like The Protocols from the
           | late 1800s or the Rothchilds Waterloo story from the 1840s
           | still get bandied about.
           | 
           | From Gary Allen's None Dare Call It Conspiracy to the modern
           | Alex Jones, it's actually just a few pages of misinterpreted
           | empirical evidence, quotes without context or poorly written
           | headlines
           | 
           | We should all be weary of adding something to that list.
        
       | DonHopkins wrote:
       | Can't wait to see what Kyle "Qdot" Machulis does with this!
        
       | mcswell wrote:
       | Besides the nefarious uses, I can think of a number of good uses.
       | One would be to detect ticks crawling up your body. My body is
       | pretty good at detecting them--the hairs on my legs, for example,
       | cause a tickle when a tick crawls by them. And if the tick takes
       | a bite, I start to itch in many places (not just at the site of
       | the bite). But not everyone is that sensitive to ticks crawling
       | or biting, and given how many diseases they carry (not to mention
       | AlphaGal allergy), this could be a good early warning system to
       | have when hiking.
        
       | novia wrote:
       | Is the idea for these sensors to be very temporary? Human skin is
       | constantly flaking off, and it's supposed to do that, as defense
       | against infection.
       | 
       | > The bioelectronic fibres, which are repairable, can be simply
       | washed away when they have reached the end of their useful
       | lifetime, and generate less than a single milligram of waste: by
       | comparison, a typical single load of laundry produces between 600
       | and 1500 milligrams of fibre waste.
       | 
       | Hmm.. so yes? Most people bathe at least a few times a week.
       | Also, the fibre waste from laundry is also known as
       | microplastics, aka the thing we've all already been concerned
       | about. This will just add a bit more?
        
       | 11Spades wrote:
       | Maybe I just didn't read carefully enough, but I'm having a hard
       | time understanding what the sensors are actually meant to detect.
       | Is this a foundational technology for a suite of different
       | sensors, or just used for heart-rate monitoring, or..?
        
         | stubish wrote:
         | Yes. My reading is they are printing wires, and the sensor bit
         | is science fiction. Maybe the actual sensors are external,
         | picking up deformation or position of the printed gunk?
        
       | rkagerer wrote:
       | What do they sense? (contact, force, temperature, vibration,
       | etc?)
        
         | romseb wrote:
         | The press release didn't mention it at all. This figure shows
         | three possibilities:
         | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-024-01174-4/figures/4
         | 
         | * Augmented touch perception via dual-ECG sensing with person-i
         | wearing bioelectronic fibre arrays and person-ii without. * A
         | breathable skin-gated OECT on a fingertip * Dual-modal sensing
         | for augmented perception of mist pulses with acidic, alkaline
         | and neutral compositions distinguished through colorimetric and
         | electrical readouts.
         | 
         | That is amazing.
        
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