[HN Gopher] DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector (2016)
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DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector (2016)
Author : jimmaswell
Score : 148 points
Date : 2024-05-18 09:22 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bigmessowires.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bigmessowires.com)
| gumby wrote:
| That's not a "DB"-19. The DB shell is much wider, sized to
| accommodate up to 25 pins. It's more likely a DA-19, or maybe a
| DE-19. Or, as the author specified their own dimensions, an
| unofficial variant.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature
| throw0101d wrote:
| > _That 's not a "DB"-19._
|
| It is the colloquial term for the connector (regardless of what
| the 'official' name may be):
|
| > _Several computers also used a non-standard 19-pin D-sub
| connector, sometimes called DB-19,[8] including Macintosh
| (external floppy drive), Atari ST (external hard drive), and
| NeXT (Megapixel Display monitor[9] and laser printer)._
|
| *
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature#Common_misnomer...
|
| * https://iec.net/what-is-a-db19-connector/
|
| * https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=db19+connector
|
| > _The early Macintosh and late Apple II computers used a non-
| standard 19-pin D-sub for connecting external floppy disk
| drives._
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature#Other
|
| *
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mac512k-rear_DB-19_Smartp...
| raggles wrote:
| It might be the colloquial term, but if you ask someone for a
| DB-15 connector then theres a good chance you'll get the
| wrong one. I regularly use both DE-15 and DA-15 in my line of
| work (among others), and any document that refers to a DB-xx
| for anything that isn't the DB shell size will be corrected.
| gugagore wrote:
| So when people call the (smaller) PC serial port connector DB9,
| they're technically wrong? TIL
| ssl-3 wrote:
| For some versions of "technically," yes: A DB9 isn't really a
| thing.
|
| But ostensibly, everyone who needs to know will know what is
| meant when a person says "DB9," and thus it works fine.
|
| (Relatedly, the connector used for Ethernet is not an RJ45.)
| javawizard wrote:
| > (Relatedly, the connector used for Ethernet is not an
| RJ45.)
|
| Wait, what? I cannot find a single source on Google for
| this - they all say RJ45 is the correct term.
|
| If it's not an RJ45, what is it?
| andrewshadura wrote:
| 8P8C
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Registered Jacks are always for phone stuff, the general-
| purpose name would be 8P8C.
| atombender wrote:
| Wikipedia has a good explanation:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_connector#8P8C
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| RJ45 is/was the pinout/wiring of an 8P8C[1] (eight
| pin/eight contact) connector designed for the telephone
| system.[0] The wiring specification of Ethernet is
| ANSI/TIA-568[2].
|
| The only thing RJ45 has in common with Ethernet is that
| it used the same 8P8C-sized connector. But even then,
| RJ45 had a key notch on the side and Ethernet does not.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_jack#RJ45S
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_connector#8P8C
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI/TIA-568
| jes5199 wrote:
| all the examples with the notch say "RH45S" - what does
| the S stand for?
| ssl-3 wrote:
| The antiquated Registered Jack standard is RJ45S, which
| always gets butchered to RJ45 in common parlance [and
| this sans-S version has never actually existed].
|
| For RJ standards, an S suffix signifies that it is a
| "single line" circuit.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_jack#Types
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_jack#RJ45S
| gumby wrote:
| I have always loved that the 6P4C fits into the 8P8C such
| that when wired up as RJ11 or RJ12 it interoperates
| properly.
| ssl-3 wrote:
| IIRC, that was one of the reasons we had the center pair
| available with Ethernet for such a long time:
|
| A given jack on a wall in a given office could be wired
| for a regular single-pair phone, or for Ethernet, or for
| both -- even at the same time (using the same cabling),
| as a design intent.
|
| Of course this doesn't work with the gigabit spec we all
| wound up using, but it was never a popular option to
| begin with (and nowadays, we usually have VOIP if we even
| bother with desk phones at all).
| Suzuran wrote:
| There actually _WAS_ a DB9 connector, that is 9 pins in the
| B-side shell. They were used for manufacturing equipment.
| They carried 4 high-voltage differential pairs and a common
| signal for negotiation /detection. IIRC part of the
| specification was that the signal pins had to be milled
| solid parts rather than the much cheaper/more common rolled
| hollow pins.
| blueflow wrote:
| Yes, and this is a common problem with language. There are
| many instances where colloquial knowledge is just wrong and
| its not clear how people even came up with their alternative
| interpretation. Maybe you have seen me previously ranting
| about such things.
| dylan604 wrote:
| A recent one used around these parts is "hallucinating".
| There have been multiple pro/con threads on using it when
| discussing the failing of LLMs.
| buttocks wrote:
| Thankfully, the blog's comments section was still open so that
| you could pollute it with your smug pedantry.
| gumby wrote:
| It's confusing. It's a technical spec and the wrong use can
| be confusing, and can cause you to discover you have the
| wrong part at an inconvenient time. It's a case where "size
| matters".
|
| It used to be quite common to see a serial port wired in a B
| shell, sometimes with just three pins, making a DB-3.
|
| If you were making the point that I shouldn't care if a bird
| were a raven or a crow in the background of a painting, sure,
| that would be pedantry (unless there were some important
| symbolism). But this is a simple case where a modicum of
| accuracy can make a big difference.
| psim1 wrote:
| Apple themselves call the floppy connector a DB-19
| (https://support.apple.com/en-me/112201). In this case, it
| would be better to use the "wrong" DB-19 term so that
| people seeking the referenced connector can find it.
| wannacboatmovie wrote:
| It's not "smug pedantry", it's literally correct.
| eesmith wrote:
| Already commented, on August 9th, 2016 at 7:23 am.
| JeremyHerrman wrote:
| In the comments Steve addresses this:
|
| "The DB-19 isn't really a B shell and probably shouldn't be
| called "DB" anything if you're being precise about naming.
| Apple called it DB-19 in their documentation, though, and the
| name stuck."
| lpmay wrote:
| I would never have guessed this configuration was so rare. D-sub
| connectors seem to have more active use in aerospace and defense
| that you might expect (Until I started working professionally, I
| always associated them with "old" computers, not high end stuff).
| Dwedit wrote:
| 9 and 25 are the common ones, 19 is the rare one.
| mrWiz wrote:
| 37 is surprisingly common too.
| quink wrote:
| (2016)
| neilv wrote:
| > _but then I found an old mechanical drawing of a DB-25. I
| photoshopped that sucker, edited some key measurements, and that
| was what they used for the very expensive mold-making process._
|
| I'm glad that didn't result in five figures of group-buy money
| wasted.
| eternauta3k wrote:
| The article mentions prototyping, maybe they sent a connector
| for testing before making the Very Expensive Molds.
| neilv wrote:
| If you pay for a factory to make unique tooling like this, can
| you avoid them using the tooling for their own runs, to undercut
| you as the sole source for your target market (such as on
| Alibaba/Aliexpress)?
| s0rce wrote:
| You could ask them for the molds at the end or stipulate in the
| contract that they can't use them for anyone else, they might
| not abide by this or might not sign a contract requiring this
| but you can ask.
| analog31 wrote:
| I worked for a molding company long ago, and exclusivity for
| customer tooling was part of the standard agreement. I don't
| remember the verbiage.
| janekm wrote:
| Yes, but this scenario is a bit different. If you ask a
| connector factory to custom-make you a connector it's common
| that they are allowed to add it to their catalogue, though
| you can of course stipulate something else in the contract.
| You'll see this in the electronics markets in Shenzhen for
| example... they still have a lot of the connectors and
| switches from MP3 players, which I believe was one of the
| early boom industries in the region.
| echoangle wrote:
| Did you work in china though? I don't want to make wrong
| assumptions but I think the intellectual property protections
| are taken a bit less serious there.
| analog31 wrote:
| It was the 1990s and we were in the US.
| usefulcat wrote:
| For a large order this might be a concern, but for a smaller
| order (as it sounds like this one was) I would think it's
| unlikely to be worth their time to compete with you.
| lelanthran wrote:
| Their price for the small runs already is discounted if they
| think they can reuse them.
|
| You don't really want to pay full price anyway.
| qiqitori wrote:
| I've always been wondering, could you build connectors like this
| by CNCing the metal parts and 3d-printing the insulation? (Maybe
| add in some metal bending, but maybe that could be done manually
| using hand tools?) In this case, there actually seems to be a
| market for thousands of these connectors, but for many other
| connectors the market is... a couple dozen or so. Note: I have
| very little knowledge in this field.
| upwardbound wrote:
| Yes you definitely can. Obviously you should buy the pins
| instead of CNCing pins, but for the complex geometry of the
| main connector body you can definitely CNC it. Example of the
| pins being sold on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/JRready-
| Terminal-Connector-205089-1-c...
| lelanthran wrote:
| If not needed under 10 I'd make it manually like you say.
|
| For above 10 I'd make a jig to either cut and punch holes in
| 3mm plexiglass sheets, or a jig to quickly make cardboard
| moulds into which I'd place the pins and pour resin into.
|
| To me, either of the above is preferable to ordering 10k of
| them.
| ssl-3 wrote:
| In the past, I've seen examples of D-shell connectors with
| molded all-plastic connectors.
|
| The most common example is perhaps the Atari 2600's molded
| female joystick connector, but I've also seen male iterations
| (usually on IDC connectors).
|
| Other than lack durability and lack of built-in shielding, I
| don't see any problem with the idea of 3D printing such a
| thing.
|
| With a decent resin printer, one should even be able to design
| it to use removable pins that just snap into place (which are
| things that are still made in factories every day).
| userbinator wrote:
| Almost 8 years later, I wonder if he's managed to sell the whole
| lot, and whether some obscure Chinese company has started making
| them again.
| ted_dunning wrote:
| Well, IEC doesn't seem to have any 19 pin DB style connectors
| for sale (9, 15, 23 and 25 are available).
|
| So maybe he did sell them all.
| TonyTrapp wrote:
| According to the comments under the article, this is the
| item: http://iec.net/product/d-style-male-solder-type-
| connector/ - so it still appears to be in stock.
| atombender wrote:
| The 19-pin is there (https://iec.net/product/d-style-male-
| solder-type-connector/), but the connector has a blue
| interior, which suggests it's a different source than OP? I
| suppose it could be a stock photo of a different version.
| tecleandor wrote:
| Well, they just re-stocked their Mac Floppy Emulator, that uses
| one of those connectors, so I guess they still have a bunch of
| them :)
|
| https://shop.bigmessowires.com/products/floppy-emu-model-c-b...
| Frenchgeek wrote:
| https://www.bigmessowires.com/2018/05/10/10000-more-db-19-co...
| fragmede wrote:
| oh wow, 10,000 more in 2018, and that's only 2 years later
| than the article. there's probably been a couple more buys in
| the six years since!
| zoeysmithe wrote:
| Stuff like this made me realize how I have no idea how big
| enthusiast markets are. If you asked me how many weirdo
| disk connectors for vintage macs and Apple II's could be
| sold today I would have guessed maybe one or two hundred at
| most, sold over many years.
|
| It looks like they've sold tens of thousands of these.
|
| If we guess 50,000 at $129, with say a 30% profit margin,
| which might be low for hobbyist markets, its $2m net. These
| "little" enthusiast markets are much larger and lucrative
| than I thought.
| Suppafly wrote:
| Now someone needs to do this for the 8 pin 'DIN' commodore
| connector. They seem impossible to find now other than from
| people who've already bought up all of them to make commodore
| video cables.
| rhubarbtse wrote:
| Male 262 degrees 8 pin DIN connectors (for C64 video cables
| etc) are readily available from for example AliExpress.
|
| Couldn't find any female connectors (for the motherboard)
| though.
| pezezin wrote:
| If I am not mistaken, it is the same connector as the one
| used by the Sega Megadrive 1, although with a different
| pinout. In principle, you should be able to get a Megadrive
| cable, cut it, and reorder the pins.
| mrweasel wrote:
| I believe it's the same issue with the DB-23 connector on the
| Amiga. It's would be somewhat surprising if no one has done
| something similar for that connector. Then again, to build an
| entirely new Amiga you'd still need to harvest the custom chips
| and then you may very well be able to get the DB-23 connector
| as well.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| IIRC you can build a completely new Amiga now, or very close
| to it.
|
| Plus there are FPGA Amigas, but that is another matter.
| mrweasel wrote:
| I don't think you can replace the custom chips, without
| using FPGAs. If FPGA replacements exists for all of the
| custom chips I don't know.
|
| There's also weird resistor or capacity pack somewhere that
| doesn't have a modern replacement.
|
| You can get an entire Amiga as an FPGA, but that's a little
| different than a chip for chip replacement.
| YZF wrote:
| If you just want a one-off you can try something I did way back
| to make my own HP48-SX connector. Get some pins that match.
| Solder or crimp wires onto them. Put the pins in the mating
| connector. Careful use of epoxy to make the "body" of the
| connector. Viola- your own custom connector.
| thsksbd wrote:
| At least on the GX, you could use the audio cable connector
| that connected (computer) CD drives to audio cards [1]. The fit
| is perfect
|
| You do gave to then splice that wire to a 9 serial. But thats
| not too hard and with some shrink tubing it'll look great.
|
| [1] I think the connector is a fairly standard part.in the 90s,
| though, we were flooded with those cables so the tutorials just
| had us use those
| banish-m4 wrote:
| Specifically, a SCSI cdrom audio cable worked although I
| can't recall if ATA and SCSI cdrom drives has identical
| connectors or not. Perhaps the SCSI one tended to be white
| rectangle without a retention mechanism while the ATA one was
| one was black thinner, and longer, with a retention
| mechanism.
|
| 3 of the 4 wires (RX, TX, and GND) would then be soldered to
| a DB-9 female plug.
|
| https://www.hpcalc.org/contents/4741/48techni.pdf
| stuaxo wrote:
| Ah, very similar to what happened with 23 pin connectors for the
| Amiga, which have since been made again.
| jesprenj wrote:
| What about the female connector? Did he also order it? Or are
| only male connectors needed/in shortage for some reason?
|
| Edit: there's some discussion about female counterparts in the
| comment section of the website.
| krs_ wrote:
| No there's still no new production of those, as mentioned in
| the comments. It's kind of a shame. You can adapt a DB-25M to
| fit a DB-19F by cutting some of the hood to size and removing
| the extra pins. It's not pretty but it works. That's not really
| possible to do with the female connector though.
| ano-ther wrote:
| I am still amazed about how the internet enabled such small-scale
| production runs from the other side of the world.
| newswasboring wrote:
| > I photoshopped that sucker, edited some key measurements, and
| that was what they used for the very expensive mold-making
| process.
|
| I work in manufacturing and this sentence made me feel so many
| feelings. Surprise that this worked, envy that this worked,
| remorse on how hard we try to make things precise AND THIS
| WORKED. Just so, so many feelings.
| boricj wrote:
| Wait until you see how computer programs are made.
| baq wrote:
| 'it compiles, ship it!'
|
| except we don't even compile programs anymore... (in the
| traditional sense, anyway; I try to look the other way when
| build engineering does dark magic with webpacks and esbuilds)
| fragmede wrote:
| At the point where JScrambler is implementing a VM in
| JavaScript to run the obfuscated code, I think it actually
| qualifies as being compiled. Which is unholy, but that's
| the world we live in.
| jollyllama wrote:
| Assuming there was inaccuracy in the author's approach, some
| poor low-level guy probably noticed the flaws and took it
| upon himself to correct it.
| jes5199 wrote:
| what do you think is likely to go wrong if you do it this way?
| bombela wrote:
| Any measurement off by some small amount, and the connector
| won't insert, or be too tight or too loose.
|
| It is the equivalent of code that compiles and runs
| successfully at the first attempt. It is nice, and with
| experience easier to achieve. But it is still part lucky.
| poizan42 wrote:
| It probably helps that it's a large-ish connector (by
| modern standards) and tolerances aren't that tight.
| crote wrote:
| One thing to keep in mind is that connectors are often
| parametric: You got some end bits, and a middle section you
| repeat N times. This means a lot of your dimensions are going
| to be "Y = AX + B", where X is just the pin spacing. If you
| know they're from the same family, you can extrapolate the
| dimensions without too much trouble.
|
| Of course there's still a huge risk with DB-19 being a semi-
| custom format. Sure, it's almost certainly derived from the
| standard, but are you willing to bet the cash equivalent of a
| car that they didn't _slightly_ tweak it for one reason or
| another?
| wildzzz wrote:
| It was a standard D-sub connector at one point in time, DA19P
| is going to be the first part of the real part number. Only
| issue is that no one makes this one anymore as the D-sub is
| pretty much abandoned by the consumer electronics industry.
| Serial ports, single density 9 pin, and VGA, double density
| 15 pin, being the only survivors and even those have been
| almost entirely removed. Defense contractors still use lots
| of D-subs as it's a simple and cheap way to pass a bunch of
| signals. The major connector manufacturers stopped making 19
| pins because no one was asking for it. Defense contractors
| aren't going to keep that model alive with their low volume
| orders, it's easier to just use a 15 or 25 pin D-sub.
|
| Since there are so many compatible drawings out there of
| D-subs, it's easy to find one that shows the breakdown of why
| the measurements are what they are. From there, you can
| easily backtrack and get the exact dimensions of a DA19P.
| amelius wrote:
| Yeah. Especially after reading this sentence:
|
| > Early on, it became clear they'd need more specific
| directions than simply "make it like a DB-9 but with more
| pins."
| treflop wrote:
| From what I gathered, they Photoshopped a CAD drawing and
| changed numbers around (and not far presumably) -- I'm not sure
| why that is too surprising given that the manufacturer is
| building it off the measurements and not literally the scale of
| the actual drawing?
|
| (And given that drawings used to be hand drawn with pencil and
| paper, you have way more ton of precision control in a non-
| linear tool like Photoshop that gives you precise measurements
| than some rulers and those types of tools.)
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| if he had molds made, the manufacturer actually sent the
| dimensions to a 3rd party mold maker. That company put them
| into some sort of CAD software to build a mold (which is
| basically a negative). Once that was completed, the mold was
| brought back to make the product
| chiffre01 wrote:
| Is 'mold' the right word here. Looking at the connectors, I would
| assume they are stamped out with a die or something similar.
| Milner08 wrote:
| There is a plastic part in the middle to hold the pins which
| would need a mold. But you are correct that the outside would
| probably be formed with a die
| rkagerer wrote:
| I miss how solid these connectors were once screwed in, compared
| to e.g. USB or HDMI* connections of today.
|
| (*once had an HDMI soften over time due to all the heat spewing
| out of the graphics card it plugged into, took a few cables
| before I found one that didn't want to melt)
| mrlonglong wrote:
| Next life hack, resurrect the 3.5" floppy disk.
| samatman wrote:
| Reading along with great enjoyment, until I got to the part where
| the author is photoshopping and editing a component diagram of
| the D19 to get more manufactured.
|
| I think to myself, "how strange! even if the manufacturer isn't
| willing to pay for the standard, it's got to be worth it for the
| guy who's trying to get them built!"
|
| A small bit of Wikipedia browsing followed, in which I realized
| that I've been laboring under a decades-long misapprehension that
| the D in D-sub connectors stands for DIN. Nope, just the shape,
| and not a DIN, or ANSI, or ISO standard. Just de facto.
|
| Note that this isn't totally insane, there are in fact DIN
| connectors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector. Just so
| happens that D-sub connectors have nothing to do with them.
|
| Always more to learn...
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(page generated 2024-05-20 23:00 UTC)